How is that relavent to why Garchomp should be banned or not?
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
What would you consider to be the most urgent thing that needs to be tested?
- Thread starter MythTrainerInfinity
- Start date
- Status
I picked "Other" as I think that multiple things can be done at the same time.
Chomp + Lati@s + Manaphy + Mew AND Wobbuffet should all be let into OU simultaneously as there are already suspects in OU. I see no trouble adding 4 more. Maybe they will cancel each other, out maybe not. At the very least Wobbuffet and Garchomp.
Species Clause + OHKO clauses should be disbanded. I actually see stall teams become more prevalent if this happens... which is something I hate but it may be benificial for a swing away from offense. They almost cancel each other out in some perspective.
Arceus is by definition Uber is it not? He should be uber..
SR is a nusance but it cuts sash usuage and keeps flying types in check. Thats a good thing. To bad for Moltress and Charizard but they wtill wouldnt move up to OU. Please dont qoute me on that though. Spikes is more annoying than Stealth Rock IMO.
Chomp + Lati@s + Manaphy + Mew AND Wobbuffet should all be let into OU simultaneously as there are already suspects in OU. I see no trouble adding 4 more. Maybe they will cancel each other, out maybe not. At the very least Wobbuffet and Garchomp.
Species Clause + OHKO clauses should be disbanded. I actually see stall teams become more prevalent if this happens... which is something I hate but it may be benificial for a swing away from offense. They almost cancel each other out in some perspective.
Arceus is by definition Uber is it not? He should be uber..
SR is a nusance but it cuts sash usuage and keeps flying types in check. Thats a good thing. To bad for Moltress and Charizard but they wtill wouldnt move up to OU. Please dont qoute me on that though. Spikes is more annoying than Stealth Rock IMO.
sorry vivi, my mistake.
but once you move chomp into ubers, it has no sandstorm to abuse. and then it will be compared to rayquaza as a physical dragon sweeper. and rayquaza probably wins. so let garchomp back into OU where it shines.'
dont get me wrong, garchomp is still a major thret in ubers thanks to the special-inclined nature of ubers. but..........
but once you move chomp into ubers, it has no sandstorm to abuse. and then it will be compared to rayquaza as a physical dragon sweeper. and rayquaza probably wins. so let garchomp back into OU where it shines.'
dont get me wrong, garchomp is still a major thret in ubers thanks to the special-inclined nature of ubers. but..........
Well I do think Moltres would see some decent usage if SR was banned. It would at least give Heatran, Skymin, and Scizor a good run for their money given they don't have a Rock move. Regice and Zapdos would also be firmer Skymin counters if they didn't take 25% from SR.
People would most likely move then to using Spikers, which would null most Sashers anyway, not to mention Ttar is always common. I've expressed how much I hate SR many times, so I won't beat it to death here :x
People would most likely move then to using Spikers, which would null most Sashers anyway, not to mention Ttar is always common. I've expressed how much I hate SR many times, so I won't beat it to death here :x
what he said, emphasis on platinum changes. should occur straight after skymin.
I voted SR, just because its effect would be the most interesting.
Also, will everyone shut the hell up about Garchomp being terrible in Ubers? First off, a couple neat notes. Garchomp outspeeds pretty much every relevant Uber except Lati@s, Darkrai, and Deoxys-A, with STAB on a great attacking type in Dragon. It's not weak to SR and its 130 base attack is still phenomenal.
But that's not the point. Ubers is a *ban tier*. Mew is a great Pokemon, but not in Ubers. Manaphy is a great Pokemon, but not in Ubers. The only reason an Ubers metagame even exists is because people feel like playing with ridiculously overpowered Pokemon, something that was never intended for Ubers. BL also isn't a real tier, but because people don't play it (except for a couple fringe-dwellers), people don't bitch about "Arcanine sucks in BL, move it to UU" or the like. It always pisses me off when people don't understand the fundamentals of the tier system when they bitch about it.
Anyway, carry on. Don't let my little rant derail you, because this is a pretty neat topic.
EDIT: hi5 syberia
Also, will everyone shut the hell up about Garchomp being terrible in Ubers? First off, a couple neat notes. Garchomp outspeeds pretty much every relevant Uber except Lati@s, Darkrai, and Deoxys-A, with STAB on a great attacking type in Dragon. It's not weak to SR and its 130 base attack is still phenomenal.
But that's not the point. Ubers is a *ban tier*. Mew is a great Pokemon, but not in Ubers. Manaphy is a great Pokemon, but not in Ubers. The only reason an Ubers metagame even exists is because people feel like playing with ridiculously overpowered Pokemon, something that was never intended for Ubers. BL also isn't a real tier, but because people don't play it (except for a couple fringe-dwellers), people don't bitch about "Arcanine sucks in BL, move it to UU" or the like. It always pisses me off when people don't understand the fundamentals of the tier system when they bitch about it.
Anyway, carry on. Don't let my little rant derail you, because this is a pretty neat topic.
EDIT: hi5 syberia
Well a Choice Scarf Garchomp outruns every other Dragon in Ubers (most likely the Lati twins always carry Soul Dew) and it makes an excellent revenge killer. I'm open to the testing of it, I just don't think that it'll change much.
Just imagine how much a Garchomp will be complimented by having a couple Trickers alongside it on a team. It still would be the fastest Dragon in OU and let's not forget why we just bumped Deo-S back up.
Just imagine how much a Garchomp will be complimented by having a couple Trickers alongside it on a team. It still would be the fastest Dragon in OU and let's not forget why we just bumped Deo-S back up.
A ban of Soul Dew that would come with Lati@s introduction wouldn't be regulated in Ubers.
I think that Stealth Rock is without a doubt the one move that has the biggest effect on the metagame. Pokemon that have a 4x rock weakness are almost always discarded; Focus Sashes are never used, and some leads exist purely to set up stealth rock and die.
I can't say whether a metagame without Stealth Rock would be better or not with certainty: Salamence and Gyarados and Skymin would get very unnecessary boosts, and Focus Sash is a real F*** You item to put on a Poke.
It is definetely important enought to warrant a test soon, simply because of how central it is to the metagame.
I think that Stealth Rock is without a doubt the one move that has the biggest effect on the metagame. Pokemon that have a 4x rock weakness are almost always discarded; Focus Sashes are never used, and some leads exist purely to set up stealth rock and die.
I can't say whether a metagame without Stealth Rock would be better or not with certainty: Salamence and Gyarados and Skymin would get very unnecessary boosts, and Focus Sash is a real F*** You item to put on a Poke.
It is definetely important enought to warrant a test soon, simply because of how central it is to the metagame.
Voted for the clauses, more specifically Evasion first then if I could've OHKO and species. They were staples that carried over from the previous generations, were they not? Without testing them how detrimental can we say they are on the current metagame, if someone wants to rely on luck why not let them try? People use paraflinch sets on Togekiss and the like very often, and its effective use boils down to luck; as it is I've read a few warstories where at one point it came down to breaking a stalemate via a well-timed crit, that is inofitself very much luck-based. (I myself had that situation in UU, Cursemuk v. Bulktop. I got a crit and won through his upped def.)
Given the nature of Pokemon, luck is bound to be a factor; whether it's a lucky ice beam freeze or a miss on a crucial Megahorn for the OHKO, there's no escaping luck. Even were we to make every move 100% and remove all additional effects, there would STILL be chance in the form of how damage is done. Some are luckier than others and like to rely on that luck, so why not let them try their hand?
Moves like Mud-Slap are allowed, so why not Double Team? All DT does is give a turn for a counter to switch-in, and with only one evasion level it would be no worse than say Brightpowder on Mamoswine. (Although I'd have to admit, sand veil/snow cloak activate + BP + DT would cause a headache... worst case scenario on that would be Garchomp, but he's already got other moves more worthy of his time...) Not to mention a hazer/phazer could counter that stuff as easily as it counters any other stat-boosting pokemon, only easier since the evasion pokemon hasn't done anything to their offensive capabilities, and likewise can't threaten the hazer/phazer any more than that pokemon usually does...
Given the nature of Pokemon, luck is bound to be a factor; whether it's a lucky ice beam freeze or a miss on a crucial Megahorn for the OHKO, there's no escaping luck. Even were we to make every move 100% and remove all additional effects, there would STILL be chance in the form of how damage is done. Some are luckier than others and like to rely on that luck, so why not let them try their hand?
Moves like Mud-Slap are allowed, so why not Double Team? All DT does is give a turn for a counter to switch-in, and with only one evasion level it would be no worse than say Brightpowder on Mamoswine. (Although I'd have to admit, sand veil/snow cloak activate + BP + DT would cause a headache... worst case scenario on that would be Garchomp, but he's already got other moves more worthy of his time...) Not to mention a hazer/phazer could counter that stuff as easily as it counters any other stat-boosting pokemon, only easier since the evasion pokemon hasn't done anything to their offensive capabilities, and likewise can't threaten the hazer/phazer any more than that pokemon usually does...
I voted for SR. Most teams use it, and its so easy to set up whilst removing it is much harder due to very few spinners that get blocked by the so common gengar and rotom (plus dusknoir & spiritomb).
What will worry me is if SR gets banned, how popular and strong will Gyara and Zapdos become? I suspect a rise in Yanmega and Moltres, but they're arguably not as game breaking as the other two. Spikes and Tspikes would probably become more common too.
What will worry me is if SR gets banned, how popular and strong will Gyara and Zapdos become? I suspect a rise in Yanmega and Moltres, but they're arguably not as game breaking as the other two. Spikes and Tspikes would probably become more common too.
even though i voted for garchomp, i would like to see a revision f some clauses. someone here put forward a very good argument for evasion clause. if evasion isnt allowed, then why is flinching allowed?
evasion is part and parcel(or was meant to be) of the game.
and under evasion clause, doesnt sand veil count? or brightpowder?
evasion is part and parcel(or was meant to be) of the game.
and under evasion clause, doesnt sand veil count? or brightpowder?
Those aren't counters.
Weavile and Mamoswine can't take attacks from Garchomp.
I think Garchomp would be less Uber now, he still might be Uber but I doubt it, with all the priority moves going on and Skymin (Although Deoxys-S going to Uber has meant there's one less thing that outspeeds with an ice attack). He still might be able to take down at least one pokemon but unlike before its not a guarentee...
Lati@s is also pretty much stopped cold by Tyranitar, barring surf (right, surf), and are pursuit weak. Still, even putting offensive potential aside, fair defensive stats alongside a breadth of resistances including ground immunity and no glaring weaknesses bothers me.
Skymin ought to be tested (and is being tested), but generally speaking I think it should remain in OU. Grass is a terrible STAB to rely on, and resisted by so many top OU pokes it's ridiculous. Serene Grace defensive drop is just about the only way to even begin getting around that weakness, in other words it's still pretty underwhelming.
If there's an argument for skymin's ban, it's almost solely based on serene grace air slash from 127 speed. Flying on the other hand, is a very nice STAB to have and depend on, and of course the flinch chance from air slash is impressive.
Over all though, skymin just does not hit hard enough or reliably enough. The misses and non-flinches cost it its life in most cases, and happen to often for it to be truly effective without quite a bit of hax.
I'd like to have it around as a check for bulky waters (who can still kill it with a smart ice beam on switch in).
Skymin ought to be tested (and is being tested), but generally speaking I think it should remain in OU. Grass is a terrible STAB to rely on, and resisted by so many top OU pokes it's ridiculous. Serene Grace defensive drop is just about the only way to even begin getting around that weakness, in other words it's still pretty underwhelming.
If there's an argument for skymin's ban, it's almost solely based on serene grace air slash from 127 speed. Flying on the other hand, is a very nice STAB to have and depend on, and of course the flinch chance from air slash is impressive.
Over all though, skymin just does not hit hard enough or reliably enough. The misses and non-flinches cost it its life in most cases, and happen to often for it to be truly effective without quite a bit of hax.
I'd like to have it around as a check for bulky waters (who can still kill it with a smart ice beam on switch in).
Lati@s has Grass Knot for Tyranitar. And the only reason I see them as Ubers is Soul Dew. They should be allowed in standard play, or at least tested when they don't have Soul Dew.
Skymin is pretty amazing to me. It's got great speed, good attack, and pretty adequate defenses. Seed Flare is amazing if used on the switch, and then just bam away with Aire Slash until they're flinched to death. The only problem is Ice Shard revenge killers, which good bring Garchomp back into the mix... but I think it's too soon to test.
Saying Garchomp isn't Uber anymore, is pretty much like saying Ho-oh isn't Uber when both of them should be. Garchomp is Uber because unlike all those other 600 BST guys, it gets Sword Dance and has great speed. Dragonite, Tyranitar, Salamance, nor Metagross get Sword Dance.
I think Manaphy should be tested. It doesn't have a movepool like Mew, yet they have the same stats. It has common weakness to Electric and Grass, it doesn't have the greatest speed to sweep with Tail Glow. The only thing keeping it in Ubers is Kyogre's Rain? That shouldn't be enough.
Skymin is pretty amazing to me. It's got great speed, good attack, and pretty adequate defenses. Seed Flare is amazing if used on the switch, and then just bam away with Aire Slash until they're flinched to death. The only problem is Ice Shard revenge killers, which good bring Garchomp back into the mix... but I think it's too soon to test.
Saying Garchomp isn't Uber anymore, is pretty much like saying Ho-oh isn't Uber when both of them should be. Garchomp is Uber because unlike all those other 600 BST guys, it gets Sword Dance and has great speed. Dragonite, Tyranitar, Salamance, nor Metagross get Sword Dance.
I think Manaphy should be tested. It doesn't have a movepool like Mew, yet they have the same stats. It has common weakness to Electric and Grass, it doesn't have the greatest speed to sweep with Tail Glow. The only thing keeping it in Ubers is Kyogre's Rain? That shouldn't be enough.
Lati@s won't OHKO Tar with Grass Knot, while Tar OHKOs back with Crunch, and can trap them with Pursuit. They should be tested (though personally, I feel Lati@s should be uber due to great stats and movepool without a 4x weakness)
It's got 2 less speed than Garchomp, no x4 weakness and after using Rain Dance, it has an instant heal with Rest. And its pretty bulky with 100 stats in everything. Its movepool isn't good, but it's just what it needs. Personally, I'm against a Manaphy test - Surf + Tail Glow/Ice Beam/Grass Knot Rain Dance + Rest = overcentralised Manaphy counters like Vaporeon and Kingdra, and OHKOing it is extremely difficult withou a berry.
If I did my calcs right... +SAtk natured Latios with Expert Belt and Latias with a Life Orb can 2HKO 252 HP/0 SDef Ttar with Grass Knot. So to be fair, Ttar is not a safe switch in to them.
This argument is so flawed it's not even funny. :(
Last time I checked, Tyranitar doesn't get STAB on Outrage, Earthquake and Draco Meteor. Hell, it doesn't even GET Draco Meteor. And Outrage used on something that's not a Dragon-type is basically suicide.
Tyranitar doesn't get Swords Dance either. And Garchomp doesn't get Dragon Dance. They learn practically the same moves eh?
How can you even compare Garchomp with Tyranitar? If Tyranitar were to go to uber sometime in the future (which I highly doubt will ever happen), it would be uber for reasons completely different from those of Garchomp.
If we ban Soul Dew we might as well ban Thick Club and Light Ball.
The Lati twins have counters in OU. Scizor, Metagross and Tyranitar can bring them down with powerful pursuits and Blissey walls them all day long.
Anyway, I voted others because of Skymin. I believe it's best we test the OU environment for suspects first and then start testing the Ubers. The less suspects in OU the better.
The Lati twins have counters in OU. Scizor, Metagross and Tyranitar can bring them down with powerful pursuits and Blissey walls them all day long.
Anyway, I voted others because of Skymin. I believe it's best we test the OU environment for suspects first and then start testing the Ubers. The less suspects in OU the better.
- Status