CAP 5 CAP 5 - Final Product

[eric the espeon]

Levitate makes it hard for most Lax though.. Maybe it could stall LO damage from non-CM sets with Rest?

 

[Bass]

Levitate makes it hard for most Lax though.. Maybe it could stall LO damage from non-CM sets with Rest?

Whoops, forgot about that. Snorlax probably can't beat the Calm Mind sets.

 

[tennisace]

In reality, name one thing that can reliably take down the Sub/CM set. Heatran if it lacks Earth Power, but Scizor doesn't work since it takes neutral from Paleo Wave and after a CM or two Stratagem is going to win. Maybe Tyranitar with Aqua Tail?

 

[hinode]

Seismic Toss Blissey. Nothing Strategem can really do about that.

Other than that, it depends on the last move. Bronzong, Revenankh, Gallade, Swampert, Gastrodon, Machamp, Hariyama all have pretty good chances if they aren't hit SE by the second attack.

 

[Deck Knight]

I feel like playing some theorymon. Possible counters for this thing would be anything with Bullet Punch (Scizor, Metagross and Lucario are the most likely), other base 130 speed Pokemon such as Aerodactyl, Electrode with a super effective Hidden Power (?) and Trick Room. But that's all I can think of. Anyone else?

Cradily also works, being neutral to everything it possesses except Ice Beam, and Ice Beam isn't on a lot of posted sets. SD/EQ takes out any Stratagem with Technician, Any set with Seed Bomb pretty much wins unconditionally.

Hippowdon can Roar it out and slack off damage effortlessly unless it has Ice Beam.

Empoleon can OHKO it with Surf quite easily outside of Sandstorm, but inside it even Max SA Modest Empleon only does 84-100%.

Blastoise can Mirror Coat it into oblivion, but SubCM mostly relegates it to the dustbin. Surf is probably Blastoise's best option. Waterfall Swampert could deal with any set lacking a grass move. DDFeraligatr should be able to take it out as well unless it has CM and Tbolt.

 

[Yubel]

Originally Posted by Fat cyberzero
I feel like playing some theorymon. Possible counters for this thing would be anything with Bullet Punch (Scizor, Metagross and Lucario are the most likely), other base 130 speed Pokemon such as Aerodactyl, Electrode with a super effective Hidden Power (?) and Trick Room. But that's all I can think of. Anyone else?

Hariyama can switch in on most of Stratagem's attacks an threaten to OHKO with force palm. It is only 3HKO'd by life orb Earth Power and 4HKO'd by an unboosted one.

 

[Elevator Music]

Hariyama can switch in on most of Stratagem's attacks an threaten to OHKO with force palm. It is only 3HKO'd by life orb Earth Power and 4HKO'd by an unboosted one.

Quoting to say that Hariyama is an excellent counter to Stratagem, as it also gets Bullet Punch (which is irrelevant but w/e) and Whirlwind to help against CM sets.

EDIT- which probably also means to a lesser extent something like Hitmontop counters it nicely as well, with STAB Techician Mach Punch and all...

 

[rippersteveM5]

Quoting to say that Hariyama is an excellent counter to Stratagem, as it also gets Bullet Punch (which is irrelevant but w/e) and Whirlwind to help against CM sets.

EDIT- which probably also means to a lesser extent something like Hitmontop counters it nicely as well, with STAB Techician Mach Punch and all...

Defensive fighting types on the whole counter Stratagem, but Hariyama does have Thick Fat for a "resistance" to Ice Beam / Flamethrower. Machamp is also a decent option.

I think Focus Blast is going to have to be a staple on the standard set; hits incoming steels who want to Bullet Punch, and makes Bliss think twice before switching in.

 

[X-Act]

In reality, name one thing that can reliably take down the Sub/CM set. Heatran if it lacks Earth Power, but Scizor doesn't work since it takes neutral from Paleo Wave and after a CM or two Stratagem is going to win. Maybe Tyranitar with Aqua Tail?

Flygon can stop it cold if its moves are Paleo Wave and Fire Blast, or Paleo Wave and Earth Power. Paleo Wave and Energy Ball is a bit more difficult though.

In fact, it basically boils down to whether the last move is Energy Ball or not in order for Flygon to counter it.

 

[jagged_angel]

Cresselia can also wall it all day long, especially if Cressy has CM. Unlike the physical counters it wont care about a surprise Paleo Wave attack drop on the switch.

The only hiccup is combination Stratagem and Sandstream in which case Cressy will be healing only 25% with Moonlight. It can still run Rest though.

 

[zarator]

Flygon can stop it cold if its moves are Paleo Wave and Fire Blast, or Paleo Wave and Earth Power. Paleo Wave and Energy Ball is a bit more difficult though.

In fact, it basically boils down to whether the last move is Energy Ball or not in order for Flygon to counter it.

Without Flamethrower or Earth Power Stratagem will be prone to Metagross...

 

[gorm]

so what's the notable movepool on this? Seems like a good place to start discussion

offensive:
Paleo Wave
Thunderbolt
Shadow Ball
Flamethrower
Fire Blast
Heat Wave
Signal Beam
Earth Power
Ice Beam
Focus Blast
Charge Beam
Explosion
U-Turn


Support:
Substitute
Calm Mind
Thunder Wave
Toxic
Stealth Rock

jeeze it's clefable with broken offensive stats and explosion, not to mention spikes/ts/eq/ep immune o_o;

scratch that it's like gengar with a better support movepool

comes in on heatran and sets up like nothing, ohkos scizor switchins aaa

Pert makes a good switch at least ~__~;

 

[Fishin]

Actually, there's an analysis workshop thread but lazy darkie hasn't been doing anything with it lately >_>

Sub/CM sets probably aren't going to be beating Surf Swampert (assuming no Roar) with ease, though - with the SS boost, 90/70 hp/spD, and a CM or two, Swampert's not going to be able to break the subs.

 

[gorm]

also when i said gengar with a better support movepool i also meant with a better offensive movepool and stats

~_~ even without the eq weak rock is still a pretty bad defensive typing but eek.

 

[zarator]

Gengar has Trick, Will-oWisp, Hypnosis... You cant compare the 2

Clefable is UU, Stratagem is meant to be OU

And BTW, what can this thing do to Seismic Toss Blissey? Explosion?

 

[gorm]

this mon has every single viable special move except grass knot/energy ball, with stats to back it up. gengar has focus blast, thunderbolt and shadow ball, and this mon is faster.

hypnosis lost it's acc so i rarely use it on gar. trick is good but i'd rather have calm mind/twave. maybe i'm exagerrating but it just seems too good ~__~

 

[sbc]

yeah but Gengar has 3 immunes and only needs to carry two attacks for complete coverage whereas this needs 4 and isn't beating special walls like Gengar was.

Although I was against Flamethrower and wanted a nerfed stats at 120 SpA /112 Spe (with lower defenses). I agree that there is too much excess in the movepool, particularly Flamethrower (but Focus Blast, Fire Blast etc and Charge Beam are meh) but with Scizor everywhere, Revenankh only being beaten by an obscure shadow ball, Blissey's not being beaten anytime soon by it neither, swampert only fears HP grass etc I dont see this thing being broken in practice.

 

[eric the espeon]

It has a long list of counters, but many of them can be beaten by a specific move.

The problem is that without CM its not going to be really sweeping through teams with it good, but not stunning, SpA. Many things it can only hit neutral will avoid a 1KO, or a 2KO from non STAB moves.
And Sub is the only way you are going to be hitting everything with the right move..
And you are not gong to miss out on a STAB move lest half of OU walls you.

So unless you don't have CM or Substitute you have only space for one coverage move.. and Flamethrower, Grass Knot, Ice Beam, Earth Power, Shadow Ball, Thunderbolt, Focus Blast and Explosion to fit in it.
That means that a whole bunch of Pokemon will wall every variant of the CM+Sub set, and quite a few will be able to stop sets that run only one of CM or Sub.
Sets without ether can't do anything to many common walls, and have to predict correctly each switch in or be forced out as well as being extra vulnerable to Bullet Punchers and Mach Punchers.

I do not think it will be broken in the least, its a ok choice for a sweeper/revenge killer and would fit well on a Sand Storm team but its not something that most teams will not be able to beat without special perparations. Some sort of suicide lead would be a little frustrateing but we have them already so its nothing new..

 

[jagged_angel]

this mon has every single viable special move except grass knot/energy ball, with stats to back it up. gengar has focus blast, thunderbolt and shadow ball, and this mon is faster.

hypnosis lost it's acc so i rarely use it on gar. trick is good but i'd rather have calm mind/twave. maybe i'm exagerrating but it just seems too good ~__~

Actually Stratagem Does have Energy Ball - not sure how you missed that?

And it doesn't have Psychic which is actually quite viable on the CAP server what with Fidgit and Revenankh.

It also doesn't have Air Slash which would be very useful on the CAP server.

It doesn't have Surf but it's got no use for it anyway.

It's probably a good idea to get to know the CAP OU environment before theorymoning that Stratagem is too good.
________________________________________________________

IMO Stratagem is not remotely broken but its type coverage is too good - it basically doesn't need Hidden Power for Anything unless you're desperate for a supereffective hit on Fighting types.

Giving Stratagem an offensive TM pool that almost rivals Mew and Arceus is a bit fanboyish and also ensures that Technician is not remotely comparable to Levitate - there's just nothing to use Technician for.

All the Technicianable moves on this are inferior to their TM counterparts aside from possibly Giga Drain and Ancientpower - both of these have cool side effects but tiny PP so not that great.

I'd say while this is overall a successful CAP on paper - if it turns out through playtesting that Technician is never used - then that highlights one of the main flaws of the CAP democratic process - that sometimes poll options will get support that just don't match up, like Levitate and Technician, Like Locklight and Shedrest. There's no way I can see to alleviate that other than the revision process but I doubt I'd get much support if I suggested removing Air Lock from Revenankh. Or for that matter, Technician from Stratagem.

 

[eric the espeon]

I do not think its a problem if there is a secondary ability or strategy that is less common.
In fact its quite interesting and provides the chance for a inventive player to surprise people with a good Tech moveset. Its reassuring that there is another way for you to use the Pokemon other than the standard. And who knows, maybe Tech will be better? Many good battlers thought that LockLight>ShedRest untill they got to play with it.

 

[petrie911]

It also doesn't have Air Slash which would be very useful on the CAP server.

All the Technicianable moves on this are inferior to their TM counterparts aside from possibly Giga Drain and Ancientpower - both of these have cool side effects but tiny PP so not that great.

I was going to say that Air Cutter was a viable alternative to Air Slash on a Tech set, having 83 effective power in that case. But then I noticed that this thing actually doesn't get Air Cutter.

Yeah, the movepool is seriously screwed up. We gave it Technician, and then apparently decided that giving it only moves that are better than their tech counterparts was a good idea. Giga Drain, AP, and Ominous Wind are the only moves that beat their non-Tech counterparts in power, and their low PP means that Giga Drain is really the only one whose added effect is worth it.

What should have happened was that the Levitate set got only a few core moves, like Earth Power, a 75-80 base Paleo Wave, Tbolt, and maybe Energy Ball, and giving the Tech Set things like Icy Wind, Air Cutter, Charge Beam, Ancientpower, Ominous Wind, Silver Wind, HP whatever 88, Vacuum Wave, Giga Drain, Confusion, Dragonbreath, Water Pulse, etc. OK, so maybe not all of those, but you get the idea. Gigantic type coverage and unpredictability for the Tech set, at the cost of a valuable EQ immunity. This would give a fair amount of balance to the ability, and considering that nothing else in the game really does something like this, it both breaks the mold and adds something new to the competitive scene.

 

[sbc]

I don't know why people wanted to give it Technician and then decided to give it a new rock attack as well as 95 BP elemental attacks. Technician won't be used at all I don't think.

 

[zarator]

Well, if we would not have given any grass moves aside from Giga Drain, it would be still usable... Anyway, if i would run a LO set, I would use Technician to replenish health with Giga Drain, i think

 

[jagged_angel]

What should have happened was that the Levitate set got only a few core moves, like Earth Power, a 75-80 base Paleo Wave, Tbolt, and maybe Energy Ball, and giving the Tech Set things like Icy Wind, Air Cutter, Charge Beam, Ancientpower, Ominous Wind, Silver Wind, HP whatever 88, Vacuum Wave, Giga Drain, Confusion, Dragonbreath, Water Pulse, etc. OK, so maybe not all of those, but you get the idea. Gigantic type coverage and unpredictability for the Tech set, at the cost of a valuable EQ immunity. This would give a fair amount of balance to the ability, and considering that nothing else in the game really does something like this, it both breaks the mold and adds something new to the competitive scene.

This.

I do not think its a problem if there is a secondary ability or strategy that is less common.
In fact its quite interesting and provides the chance for a inventive player to surprise people with a good Tech moveset. Its reassuring that there is another way for you to use the Pokemon other than the standard. And who knows, maybe Tech will be better? Many good battlers thought that LockLight>ShedRest untill they got to play with it.

Bless you, eric. I too would like to hold out some hope that surprise Tech sets will be viable.

However, we're totally kidding ourselves to think that they will be viable.

And you're beyond wrong if you think Tech could possibly be better than Levitate! Seriously, I'll PayPal you real money if you wanna bet. :naughty:

I could go through the very simple reasoning why Technician will see No use but petrie911 has just done so.

I do not think its a problem if there is a secondary ability or strategy that is less common.

No, that's not a problem. But if it turns out we gave CAP6 an Ability and then made it so that that Ability is not competitively viable (and this will become apparent when it sees no use) then it highlights the flaws of the CAP process and also the shortsightedness of anyone who voted for X-Act's movepool.

 

[eric the espeon]

I agree that Levitate will be FAR more common, but Tech Giga Drain/Ancientpower is not useless.
It may get ~5-10% but that's fine.
Levitate was voted in before Tech, more people liked the idea of a levitate sweeper so people voted for a movepool that favoured Levitate. I see no problem with this. Having a secondary less competitive ability is fine, even more so if it can be used on a few odd sets.
Its not shortsightedness, I expected this kind of thing. It would be very hard to find/make a Pokemon with two abilitys that were used the same amount, and I like to have a little variation so having Tech as an option is better than none.