CAP 6 CAP 6 - Part 3 - Secondary Type Discussion

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GHOST for the following reasons
  1. Stratagem - Water
  2. Revenankh - Ghost
  3. Fidgit - Water
  4. Tyranitar - Water
  5. Zapdos - Problem, but can give ability such as Shock Proof, to render all electric attacks useless... Or something...
  6. Syclant - Give it a Fire type move, deals with this AND Scizor.
  7. Blissey - Depends on Physical or Special.
  8. Heatran - Water
  9. Scizor - Give it a Fire type move, deals with this AND Syclant.
  10. Pyroak - Only one that is neutral, it can get a Flying or Poison type move for this...
Defensively:
  1. Stratagem - No Super Effective STABs
  2. Revenankh - As long as Decentralizmon is faster, kills with STAB S.E. Ghost
  3. Fidgit - No Super Effective STABs... If Faster and has Taunt, can shut this setter down. Or just kill if it's faster.
  4. Tyranitar - No Super Effective STABs
  5. Zapdos - Problem
  6. Syclant - Resists both STABs.
  7. Blissey - Resists Ice Beam, Flamethrower, and is immune to Seismic Toss. If Physical, it can really hurt it back.
  8. Heatran - Resists STAB, can hit back with S.E. STAB Water.
  9. Scizor - Resists Bullet Punch, X-Scissor, and immune to Superpower.
  10. Pyroak - Resists 1 STAB, but this is the only one that may have some problems... If its faster, can kill with Flying type. This is the last of the top 10 used anyways.
Example Moveset:
* Blaze Kick
* Waterfall
* Shadow Claw
* Brave Bird (Blaziken can learn this, why can't this then ^^)
 
I'm surprised people are even considering fighting when it in no way helps against rev, who seemed to be the top concern at one point. Ghost as a second type CAN work as a rev counter, after all considering the standard rev shadow sneak isn't too powerful after one bulk up still and with the right stat distribution it could probably safely take one and deal back an OHKO. I already mentioned it's also nice typing for countering syclant, scizor, and heatran to an extent, and it's stabs help it against being pursuited by ttar. Metagross and weavile carry it but less on the former and the latter isn't too common, and again with the right stat distribution it could probably live an unboosted pursuit and do a lot of damage back to it.

I don't think tyranitar is enough reason to throw on fighting, honestly there are plenty of good tyranitar counters/checks out there. Rev is more of a threat, with his counters out of the way its pretty much gg.
 

tennisace

not quite too old for this, apparently
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Example Moveset:
* Blaze Kick
* Waterfall
* Shadow Claw
* Brave Bird (Blaziken can learn this, why can't this then ^^)
Shadow Punch is better than Shadow Claw, but why bother really if Rev gets a couple bulk ups? Also, Water Pokemon almost never get Fire moves (Exceptions: Octillary/Palkia).
 
And if you count Sunny Day, Vaporeon, Suicune, Surskit, and Bibarel. But thats besides the point.

And Fighting is a better defensive type against the top 5 then Ghost.
 

Bass

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I'm surprised people are even considering fighting when it in no way helps against rev, who seemed to be the top concern at one point. Ghost as a second type CAN work as a rev counter, after all considering the standard rev shadow sneak isn't too powerful after one bulk up still and with the right stat distribution it could probably safely take one and deal back an OHKO. I already mentioned it's also nice typing for countering syclant, scizor, and heatran to an extent, and it's stabs help it against being pursuited by ttar. Metagross and weavile carry it but less on the former and the latter isn't too common, and again with the right stat distribution it could probably live an unboosted pursuit and do a lot of damage back to it.

I don't think tyranitar is enough reason to throw on fighting, honestly there are plenty of good tyranitar counters/checks out there. Rev is more of a threat, with his counters out of the way its pretty much gg.
To be fair, I don't think Revenankth needs anymore checks. Fidgit pretty much stops it completely, and with the SpD decrease, even Zapdos can usually win against it with just Thunderbolt, not to mention Skymin will stop it if it remains OU. Increased Revenankth usage over the last month has nothing to do with Revenankth being such a huge threat, it is mainly used to counter Stratagem, who actually is a threat without any boosts. If we added another check to Stratagem (With Water/Fightintg), then Revenankth usage will probably decrease.
 
Ludicolo gets Fire Moves because of the Grass-type, but yeah there are very few exceptions.
well actually the fire move I was referring to was fire punch (ludicolo is the only water type to learn it)

if watermon doesn't get fire moves to deal with scizor and syclant you could always slap hp fire on it
 
To be fair, I don't think Revenankth needs anymore checks. Fidgit pretty much stops it completely, and with the SpD decrease, even Zapdos can usually win against it with just Thunderbolt, not to mention Skymin will stop it if it remains OU. Increased Revenankth usage over the last month has nothing to do with Revenankth being such a huge threat, it is mainly used to counter Stratagem, who actually is a threat without any boosts. If we added another check to Stratagem (With Water/Fightintg), then Revenankth usage will probably decrease.
Rev has his counters but the moment they are gone, he pretty much sweeps, whereas tyranitar (who probably has just as many counters) isn't quite as scary when his counters are gone. Also in my experience a poisoned rev counter is no longer a counter. With aqua jet our new mon could be a good stratagem check too, and both half fighting/ghost are not winning against techgems
 
To be fair, I don't think Revenankth needs anymore checks. Fidgit pretty stops it completely, and with the SpD decrease, even Zapdos can usually win against it with just Thunderbolt, not to mention Skymin will stop it if it remains OU. Increased Revenankth usage over the last month has nothing to do with Revenankth being such a huge threat, it is mainly used to counter Stratagem, who actually is a threat without any boosts. If we added another check to Stratagem (With Water/Fightintg), then Revenankth usage will surely decrease.
This seems like a chicken or egg problem here. Is Rev in the top 5 because he checks Strata and Tar, or is Zapdos and Fidgit in Top 5 cause they check Rev? For both sides I would say Tar and Fidgit get excused since teams can be built around their lead abilites, but could Zapdos being the only Top 5 in Cap when all the other top 5 standard Ou fell off their spots be for the fact Zapdos is such a powerful check to rev?
 

Bass

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This seems like a chicken or egg problem here. Is Rev in the top 5 because he checks Strata and Tar, or is Zapdos and Fidgit in Top 5 cause they check Rev? For both sides I would say Tar and Fidgit get excused since team scan be built around their lead abilites, but could Zapdos being the only Top 5 in Cap when all the other top 5 fell off it be for the fact Zapdos is such a powerful check to rev?
There are a lot of flying types who do fare better against Rev than Zapdos, but none of them are in the top 10. Zapdos is a check to many other threats besides Rev, particularly Scizor, and its usage rank in CAP is close to that in Standard OU.
 

Mario With Lasers

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Well, Pyroak is a CAP pokémon, so it doesn't count :~~


Oh well, I don't think there's much reason from me to fight against pro-Fighters. Damn you, Stratagem.
 

eric the espeon

maybe I just misunderstood
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In normal OU Flying is quite a poor offensive type
No it's not, it's the fourth best after fire ice and rock. (based off X-act's chart)
Maybe so, but how many normal OUs can viably use a flying move?
Skarm, Kiss, Shay, Duggy and Yanmega. Maybe Gliscor and Mence.

For CaP OU its the following:
Aerodactyl, Dugtrio, Gyrados (Bounce is its best way around Oak and takes out Rev after more BUs/less DDs), Stratagem, Skarmory, Shaymin-S, Salamence (HP FlySpecsMence. I have seen it used well.), Gliscor, Togekiss, and Zapdos. Maybe Scizor.

In CaP Flying is far more useful than normal.

And yea, I agree with Bass. Rev is hard to stop, but if you have one of its many counters you are pretty safe. Getting a new Strata counter would decrease the number of Revs.
 
And yea, I agree with Bass. Rev is hard to stop, but if you have one of its many counters you are pretty safe. Getting a new Strata counter would decrease the number of Revs.
I have to highly disagree with the bolded, I hardly think rev is being used just as a counter to stratagem. It's an extremely effective pokemon and I said in another thread I think it's undermining most pokemon to say that now that there's another counter on the field that now every other counter is going to see more usage. Especially rev, who is more notable for his sweeping capabilities than what he counters. And couldn't the same be said for tyranitar? Like I mentioned earlier dealing with rev if his counters are eliminated is far worse than tyranitar usually imo. Also your use of counter is wrong, as many Strata apparently are techs with giga drain.
 

eric the espeon

maybe I just misunderstood
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I never said Rev was "just" being used to counter Strata, but surely you except that it being a near perfect counter to the no. 1 used Pokemon in the metagame must be a factor.
Rev would still be high, but you must agree that if we made a Strata counter then at least some people would chose it over Rev if they needed something to block a strata sweep.

And maybe its just me but I always find it harder to deal with a well played DD or CB Tyranitar then Revvy. Rev needs several turns of setup to do much, and while its better at getting those than most you still have a nice window of opportunity to do something about it while it is little or no threat to most bulky things that are not weak to fighting. With exactly 0 turns of setup nothing in OU (Machamp and possibly Swampert being the exceptions) can switch into CB Tar more than once or twice safely, and DD Tar can easily sweep unless you specificly prepare for it.

Maybe its just my team building style but I always find that Tar is much harder to stop than Rev.

Edit:
Sikh said:
Well, as Ice/Fighting is winning the resistances and immunities are the following:
urm.. you mean Water/Fighting?
 
It's probably team building, but ttar seems to have quite a few more checks imo where it makes it easier to deal with for me. I have to admit though DDtar setting up just once is pretty scary. But with rev, you really don't have many checks its seems, and though it takes many turns to set up, the lack of checks means it can do that fairly easily if its counters have been eliminated. But since it's a check on ttar anyways, especially having a stab priority thats SE against it, I like ghost.
 
Imo, ghost is only benefiting Revenak as it prevents hammer arm, but could still get you with the likes of shadow punch or shadow sneak..

If anything, fighting would be better.
Dragon would be the best.

Like I said, if we are going to vote fighting, it has to be an offensive stat spread/offensive kind of pokemon.

if it was to vote dragon, it has to be bulky with all the neutral attacks
 
Imo, ghost is only benefiting Revenak as it prevents hammer arm, but could still get you with the likes of shadow punch or shadow sneak..

If anything, fighting would be better.
Dragon would be the best.

Like I said, if we are going to vote fighting, it has to be an offensive stat spread/offensive kind of pokemon.

if it was to vote dragon, it has to be bulky with all the neutral attacks
I think its pretty clear the point of Ghost is cause you can supereffective it back.
 
Yes, but Fighting as a STAB move takes down 5 of the top ten, while Dragon takes down none. With Water included, it takes down 7 of them, 8 if it has Stone Edge. Water-Dragon takes down 5 only, so if the Pokemon only needs two STAB moves to take down the majority, we can focus more on other tactics to make it more diverse.
This is a descentralizer. Taking out 7/10 only with STAB is enough descentralizing for me. Having no 4x weakness like Ground/Flying is also a good point, since it wont be ruined by random HP Grass/Electric or Tbolt/ Grass Knot. But Zappy WILL be a problem anyway ( if we choose Fighting-Tbolt, if we choose Flying-Tbolt, if we choose Ground-expect a lot of HP-Grasses, since a lot of people will want to keep their teams centralized, so killing the descentralizor isnt a bad idea).
 
There is great reason to choose Water/Dragon and that reason is Zapdos, and no weaknesses in the top 10. Most Zapdos have HP Grass, Heat Wave, and TBlot. HP Grass and TBolt are now neutral, and you get a x4 resist against Heat Wave. Pyroak also now has to chance against it with it's Fire stab x4 resisted.

Against Stratagem, it wins.
Against Zapdos it wins.
Against Heatran it wins.
Against Fidgit it wins.
Against Revenankh it is a toss-up.
Against Syclant is a toss-up.
Against Tyranitar it wins.
Against Blissey is dependant on Physical/Special bias.
Against Scizor it wins.

As you can see it wins against most threats, has no weaknesses to the top 10 for exchange with more neutrality. I see the no weaknesses as a more important issue. This is the only typing that can deal with Zapdos other then Water/Electric and that typing gets hit with a ground weakness.
 
Most fighting types have access to stone edge, with the right stuff, Zapdos wouldn't be hard for this thing to take down if it was water/fighting
 
Even if it does have Stone Edge, that is a slot taken up that could have been used for a more benificial move it it didn't have to resort to Stone Edge just to take down Zappy because of it's weakness to TBolt. Also, Stone Edge is not 100% accurate.
 
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