CAP 6 CAP 6 - Attacking Moves Discussion - See Other Thread

[ferron]

i believe that unaware just ignores stat ups when it comes to damage, so punishment might work well with it

edit-i was right, it says so on the unaware page.

 

[Goodbar]

Everything in the OP is cool with me except bullet punch and kinda iffy on mach punch as well, I'm not fond of packing this guy with a lot of priority moves that will be mostly useless it seems. Cross chop and/or hammer arm deserve mention. And please let's not also fill this guy with useless special moves (aura sphere, fire blast), I'm fine with water/ice special moves. Vacuum wave is also fine just for the fact that it would most likely learn it via tutor, but will also be useless probably. Not much else to say about attacking options...

 

[Deck Knight]

Everything in the OP is cool with me except bullet punch and kinda iffy on mach punch as well, I'm not fond of packing this guy with a lot of priority moves that will be mostly useless it seems. Cross chop and/or hammer arm deserve mention. And please let's not also fill this guy with useless special moves (aura sphere, fire blast), I'm fine with water/ice special moves. Vacuum wave is also fine just for the fact that it would most likely learn it via tutor, but will also be useless probably. Not much else to say about attacking options...

There is no universe in which a 90 Base power STAB special move that cannot miss and strikes several pokemon 4x weak is "useless." At least not until you hit Weavile-level platform stat.

There is also no universe where Fire Blast is useless. Ever. The mere existence of Scizor, Forretress, Skarmory, and Bronzong put that notion to rest.

Machamp even uses Fire Blast on No Guard Life Orb sets. Or at least, mine do becaue I love the fresh smell of 57% damage to Skarmory in the morning after socking it with a Dynamicpunch. Machamp only has 65 Base SA. This has 70, and additionally FB would cover Grass types that resist Water and Bug types that resist Fighting.

In short, those were two really horrible examples of useless special moves. Try Shock Wave and Power Gem next time.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Thunderpunch and Fire Punch seem too much like needless filler. Granted that Fire Punch would be the final nail in Scizor's coffin, given Unaware ignoring its Swords Dances. ThunderPunch gives it too much power against bulky waters that can otherwise hold it in check.

If it's a TM and/or Tutor move, it's not needless filler. You already mentioned some of the benefits having either one of thse moves within it's movepools where as completely raping Scizor of everything it ever had via Fire Punch to teabagging Gyarados to death with ThunderPunch. These two move would make for excellent type coverage option for CAP6.

There is also no universe where Fire Blast is useless. Ever. The mere existence of Scizor, Forretress, Skarmory, and Bronzong put that notion to rest.

Machamp even uses Fire Blast on No Guard Life Orb sets. Or at least, mine do because I love the fresh smell of 57% damage to Skarmory in the morning after socking it with a Dynamicpunch. Machamp only has 65 Base SA. This has 70, and additionally FB would cover Grass types that resist Water and Bug types that resist Fighting.

And this is why I say Yes to Fire Blast. If Machamp can make good use for it, CAP6 can do so as well.

 

[Deck Knight]

If it's a TM and/or Tutor move, it's not needless filler. You already mentioned some of the benefits having either one of thse moves within it's movepools where as completely raping Scizor of everything it ever had via Fire Punch to teabagging Gyarados to death with ThunderPunch. These two move would make for excellent type coverage option for CAP6.

And this is why I say Yes to Fire Blast. If Machamp can make good use for it, CAP6 can do so as well.

Machamp doesn't base his existence on aquatic life, and in the counters topic there was a fair amount of agreement on Skarmory being a potential Counter.

Question GT: How are we making a Decentralizer if our only accomplishment via stuffing it with such a massive movepool is that it becomes the new Centralizer?

That would break the concept. It would become a RE-centralizer instead of a DE-centralizer.

For the record, I'm not horribly opposed to Aura Sphere on principle. I'm usually not opposed to anything when it comes to STAB moves.

By including both Thunderpunch and Fire Blast, you remove the checking ability of Starmie, Gyarados, Bronzong, and Skarmory. You eliminate the ability of Tangrowth and Exeggutor to counter (if they had any considering Ice Beam). Celebi and Jirachi probably survive, but don't necessarily counter by default.

If you want a DE-centralizer instead of a RE-Centralizer, you can't allow it to have a surprise moveslot to take out every single potential counter.

Next you'll be pushing for Psychic to get the drop on Weezing...

I suppose I did mispeak in calling the other elemental punches filler. They are overpowering, and allow it to punish its would-be counters too well (well, Thunderpunch anyway. Bronzong can eat Fire Punches for a while if it can Rest off damage).

One other note vis-a-vis Fire Blast: Only two lines of Non-Uber water pokemon get it: Slowpoke and Remoraid. Thus why on my UU team I employ a sneaky Heat Rock Octillery >_>.

 

[Birdy [old]]

I support every move in OP but bullet punch, as well as the following few:

Payback and Punishment are two moves that I'm going to support as well, mainly because the two moves will help the playing style of CAP 6. Payback to punish switchs (and i predict cap 6 will cause ALOT of switchs) while punishment goes nicely with Unaware.

And depending on the Art, Aqua Tail or Crabhammer are both alternative physical STAB attacks that can be used. (although im guessing waterfall will still be used over these two)

I'm also AGAINST:
Close Combat : Don't believe a defense drop would fit too well to this 'defensive theme'
Aura Sphere : Ugh, I REALLY don't want this guy to have a large movepool (especially a decent special attack like aura sphere)
Ice Shard : No thanks, 2 priority moves are enough for me.
Bullet Punch : See Ice Shard
Fire Punch : I think this guy counters steels well enough already imo, no need to give it MORE stuff to play with...
Thunder Punch : I don't really want this guy to counter bulky waters, although killing gyarados is kinda nice... (im 50/50 on this one)

 

[wildfire393]

I would like to make a couple of suggestions for non-competitive moves. Or perhaps, Quasi-competitive. That is, some that might have niche uses, but aren't going to be on the primarily used set.

Force Palm is a great example of this. It's potentially useful to spread some status around, but is likely outclassed on most of his sets by any Fighting move with decent Base Power.

If Pirate-Squid art is chosen, Octazooka seems like a definite inclusion, especially if the cannon-tentacle is kept.

Water Pulse seems like another candidate for "low power with an additional effect" moves, and could be combined with Force Palm for potential Parafusion.

Theif could work as a quasi-competitive option.

Icy Wind could be used as a weaker Ice option that can also cripple something's speed. Again, not main set usable, but a potential corner-case option. Crush Claw falls under a similar type of option if the Pokemon has claws.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Machamp doesn't base his existence on aquatic life, and in the counters topic there was a fair amount of agreement on Skarmory being a potential Counter.

I was referring to the fact that Machamp can still viably use Fire Blast to combat the metal buzzard, potentially applying that same logic onto CAP6 with it's 70 base SpA. I also remember SBC saying that Skarm is 2HKO'd by CAP6 Hydro Pump. At the min it would require LO, neutral nature, and 40 EVs.

Question GT: How are we making a Decentralizer if our only accomplishment via stuffing it with such a massive movepool is that it becomes the new Centralizer?

I don't have a definite answer on that, but I guess it wouldn't turn out to become a decentralizer if it had an answer for almost all it's counter via moves.

By including both Thunderpunch and Fire Blast, you remove the checking ability of Starmie, Gyarados, Bronzong, and Skarmory. You eliminate the ability of Tangrowth and Exeggutor to counter (if they had any considering Ice Beam). Celebi and Jirachi probably survive, but don't necessarily counter by default.

Gyarados a potent check for CAP6? Except for Earthquaking it to death, I don't see how it could stop CAP6. I still have mixed feelings toward Thunderpunch. With TP, it does have the ability to stop Dos Starmie from ruining it's fun but at the same time, Suicune, Skarm, and possibly Slowbro can still handle it. It's seem like an on the fence deal with it.

One other note vis-a-vis Fire Blast: Only two lines of Non-Uber water pokemon get it: Slowpoke and Remoraid. Thus why on my UU team I employ a sneaky Heat Rock Octillery >_>.

You forgot Gyarados and they're only one Uber water Pokemon in existent that learn Fire Blast and Palkia is it's name.

BTW, Bronzong is 3HKO'd by Fire Punch and would need 252 SpA, LO, and a plus SpA nature to 2HKO it with Fire Blast.

 

[X-Act]

Really, some moves depend on the art chosen. Focus Punch/Thunderpunch/<whatever>punch should assume a fist of some sort. (What about Shadow Punch?) Hi Jump Kick assumes karate-legs, etc.

Aqua Tail, of course, assumes a tail. :|

Anyway, here are some moves not mentioned that could be interesting.

If Wyverii's bird-like fighter wins, then Brave Bird or Drill Peck are interesting. After all, Blaziken does get Brave Bird, and Empoleon does get Drill Peck...

If the winner has obvious claws, then Shadow Claw and Dragon Claw could be considered.

Again, depending on what wins, a move such as Body Slam would be dandy, especially if Force Palm does not get any support.

I'd like to say something about priority moves. Why is everyone bandwagoning on this Pokemon having Aqua Jet and/or Mach Punch? Are they really necessary, or are they just "to be cool"?

 

[LonelyNess]

No offense, X-Act, but Art should never dictate movepool... ever.

That aside, I'd like to see this have Ice Shard as its priority move of choice. Even if it's unSTABBED, Ice Shard would be a great move to add to its repetoire and would allow it to take on the likes of Salamence / Flygon without too much trouble, especially if EVd to take one +1 Outrage and 2HKO with Ice Shard.

 

[X-Act]

Art should never dictate movepool. But since surely movepool is going to dictate which artwork is chosen, I'm seeing a lot of redundant artworks already. I cannot see aragonbird's octopus-like pirate ever use any punching moves, for instance.

 

[wildfire393]

Art should never dictate movepool. But since surely movepool is going to dictate which artwork is chosen, I'm seeing a lot of redundant artworks already. I cannot see aragonbird's octopus-like pirate ever use any punching moves, for instance.

It does have boxing-glove tentacles.

 

[Scoopapa]

It should get a move that is super effective on revenankh, since that seems like the #1 threat that people are keen on countering. Shadow punch seems the most plausible to me, but depending on the art something else might look better. For instance if its the fan guy then psycho cut could work, or if its the stork/UM's mascot then brave bird might work.

Or we could give a new move, called "Counter Revenankh" which changes its typing to ghost/normal. Ok, maybe thats a little too contrived. Nevermind.

 

[wildfire393]

It should get a move that is super effective on revenankh, since that seems like the #1 threat that people are keen on countering. Shadow punch seems the most plausible to me, but depending on the art something else might look better. For instance if its the fan guy then psycho cut could work, or if its the stork/UM's mascot then brave bird might work.

Or we could give a new move, called "Counter Revenankh" which changes its typing to ghost/normal. Ok, maybe thats a little too contrived. Nevermind.

Well, the move "Punishment" is being discussed. It's a 60 BP Dark move that gets +20 power for each stage of stat the target Pokemon has. So if Rev has a single Bulk Up in, it'd be 100 BP, super effective.

 

[Atlas]

i would like it to have both aqua jet and mach punch but if we decide to only have one id go for aqua jet. if we have both mp and aj, bullet punch would be pretty useless save for hitting parasect/toxicroak.

force exert would be nice too to help with his under average speed. this move would probably not be a standard for him though. could be paired with smelling salt for greater power.

im for drill peck/bravebird/roost/flying move if my or wyveris' art is chosen.

as for other moves not mentioned, flail/reversal, maybe drain punch for some recovery, muddy water for assholery, sucker punch, icy wind, facade.

just throwing out this idea, which wont go over too well, how about a water type overheat. i mean, there are ways to get around unaware which this will end up crippling him (or with any other stat lowering move)

 

[Urza]

awhile back someone mentioned body slam, and i do support this. it would be a decent level up move or possibly an egg move (water 1 - lapras, walrein, gastrodon; monster - snorlax, lapras; indeterminate (if it's one of the invertebrates) - gastrodon). the water/normal coverage being unresisted, plus this thing being very slow means that this would definitely get used. come in, paralyze something that might initially try to stay in, then predict a switch out. it would see use, if for no other reason than forming an almost unresisted attacking combination.

 

[latinoheat]

Maybe i am missing something but how does this thing actually beat Revenankh convincingly.

It might not be able to bulk up, but even without boosts it is still bulky enough to stall you out.

CAP6 252 Att/Adamant Waterfall vs Standard Revenankh = 32.03%-37.76%

3HKO - 4HKO


That is CAP6 with Max attack, which i doubt is going to be used as it needs to be fairly bulky to switch in. So at best your gonna 4hko, Revenankh can just rest off the damage.

So unless people are counting on something like Swords dance, i think we should discuss the following

Brave Bird/Drill Peck Probably art dependant this also would help against Celebi and Pyroak.

Zen headbutt Basically the same as Drill peck, but worse coverage

 

[sbc]

I was referring to the fact that Machamp can still viably use Fire Blast to combat the metal buzzard, potentially applying that same logic onto CAP6 with it's 70 base SpA. I also remember SBC saying that Skarm is 2HKO'd by CAP6 Hydro Pump. At the min it would require LO, neutral nature, and 40 EVs..

52 Special Attack EVs is enough to 2HKO the standard shed shell Skarmory with Hydro Pump (with SR) more than half the time, and CAP6 is faster.

I want this to get Thunderbolt so it can take down Gyarados more easily whilst not really threatening Tentacruel. Also this is why I'm against Earthquake.

Also advocating Hammer Arm / Hi Jump Kick as reliable fighting STAB. I also think that Stone Edge is redundant as with say Lucario and would just waste space and should be left out.

Really, this pokemon is not going to be able to do much off 75 base speed it is revenge killed quite easily by any fast Zapdos and will lose to Celebi without a bug move. It is shat upon by the majority of revenge killers and anything fast (say hi to Gengar's Tbolt, Nape's Grass Knot, Azelf's psychic etc). It won't be broken if it gets Ice Beam to hit random bulky grassers (which btw still does jack to celebi). Don't even give the reason that Ice beam makes tangrowth a bad counter to it since Celebi will almost certainly counter it and outclass it in the same way anyway and I'm not going to use Tangrowth over Celebi to counter something that isn't that threatening in the first place.

Maybe i am missing something but how does this thing actually beat Revenankh convincingly.

It might not be able to bulk up, but even without boosts it is still bulky enough to stall you out.

CAP6 252 Att/Adamant Waterfall vs Standard Revenankh = 32.03%-37.76%

3HKO - 4HKO


That is CAP6 with Max attack, which i doubt is going to be used as it needs to be fairly bulky to switch in. So at best your gonna 4hko, Revenankh can just rest off the damage.

So unless people are counting on something like Swords dance, i think we should discuss the following

Brave Bird/Drill Peck Probably art dependant this also would help against Celebi and Pyroak.

Zen headbutt Basically the same as Drill peck, but worse coverage

It's not a stretch to assume that CAP6 will get bulk up. You come in and bulk up in Revenankh's face; after a bulk up Hammer Arm won't even scratch you and Shadow Sneak won't do shit regardless. Waterfall will kill convincingly after a bulk up or two.

 

[Infiltrator]

Supporting the following moves:
-Waterfall
-Aqua Tail(depends on winner on art poll)
-Close Combat(Unware prevents stat reduction and a well combo will it)
-Brick Break(maybe to break Dual Screens)
-Aqua Jet(for priority)
-Mach Punch(for Priority)
-Super Power(same as Close Combat)
-Hydro Pump
-Surf
-Ice Beam(to hit flying types and grass types)
-ThunderPunch(To kill Gyarados and other water types)
-Ice Punch(Mainly for Zapdos and Dragons)
-Stone Edge(to Kill Sycant and to hit Zapdos as well)

 

[Slapjax]

Well, seeing as it is supposed to be a decentralizer, i think that it's quite important that CAP6 can stop all the dragon dancers. It can handle ttar pretty well with stabbed fighting moves, so that's not an issue. So pretty much all that's left are Salamence, Gyarados, and kingdra.

I don't think we should give it a dragon move, so kingdra won't be getting OHKO'd, but do to unaware it will still probably eventually get killed.

As for gyara, i think tpunch is certainly acceptable, but is a bit odd on a water type. Can you imagine Charizard or Heatran using surf? I didn't think so. This leaves Rock type moves as the only alternative. Because rock slide is so weak and this pokemon's attack is so high, i recommend stone edge. This can also somewhat help in the Zapdos/ Skarmory/ Mence department.

As for countering salamence, I think that giving it ice punch may be unneccessary. Ice punch could potentially offset the balance of power by allowing this pokemon to more easily hit gliscor and other defensive pokemon. Perhaps we should allow it to have ice shard only. It would still allow it to beat mence, and stone edge kills zapdos better anyway.

I imagine this guy with a set like

Cap6@ leftovers

Waterfall/ Aqua tail
Rockslide/ Stone edge
ice shard/ brick break (probably not bb because ttar gets worked by waterfall anyway)
recovery (slack off FTW!) / status/ filler
So then, with this set how does he fare against the top ten?

1. Stratagem (Strat can't come in, but tbolt may be a problem)
2. Revenankh (With recovery it can pretty much beat every kind)
3. Fidgit (not much to counter, but it does kill fidgit easily)
4. Tyranitar (STAB fighting moves ftw)
5. Zapdos (again, can't come in, and without speed ev's gets wrecked by SE)
6. Syclant (neutral to fighting, but rock destroys it. Not sure how CAP6 will fare if Syclant gets a tail glow)
7. Blissey (LOLfucked)
8. Heatran (destruction)
9. Scizor (Because unaware ignores sd, i don't think it will be too much of a problem)
10. Pyroak (CAP6 isn't really a good counter)

 

[tea_and_blues]

As for gyara, i think tpunch is certainly acceptable, but is a bit odd on a water type. Can you imagine Charizard or Heatran using surf?

I still don't really buy this argument. As I noted in a previous thread, Slowking has Flamethrower, and let's not forget Wishcash with Spark, which seems ridiculous too. It is nice to mix up types a bit, that is what CAP gives an opportunity to do, within what is reasonable. If CAP6 ends up with fists, then the T-Punch seems like a great idea. Looks at the art that we have! Many of them could viably know T-Punch. Platypuses use electric fields to sense prey (that is what their bills are), and many, many fish use electric fields as well. You'd be amazed how common electric fish are, because it electrical organs provide such a good 'sense organ' in a conductive environment. All the same, I don't think we should get too caught up in CAP6's morphology (which isn't even decided yet). Let's just focus on making it a great counter to the top 10, regardless.

Personally, my vote goes towards having T-Punch, for Gyarados, mostly. I think if we don't give CAP6 Fire attacks, he keeps plenty of checks among the Steel types, and might also have some difficulties with sturdy Grass.

 

[tennisace]

Machamp even uses Fire Blast on No Guard Life Orb sets. Or at least, mine do becaue I love the fresh smell of 57% damage to Skarmory in the morning after socking it with a Dynamicpunch. Machamp only has 65 Base SA. This has 70, and additionally FB would cover Grass types that resist Water and Bug types that resist Fighting.

But wouldn't Ice Beam and a fighting move do that just as well, with way more precident than "LOL Slowpoke and Remoraid get it", where almost all water types get Ice Beam. Skarm was mentioned a lot as a potential counter, so No Fire Blast.

Well, seeing as it is supposed to be a decentralizer, i think that it's quite important that CAP6 can stop all the dragon dancers. It can handle ttar pretty well with stabbed fighting moves, so that's not an issue. So pretty much all that's left are Salamence, Gyarados, and kingdra.

I don't think we should give it a dragon move, so kingdra won't be getting OHKO'd, but do to unaware it will still probably eventually get killed.

Un-STAB Dragon moves suck in general, they lack type coverage. Are you really going to waste a slot for it? Didn't think so.

As for countering salamence, I think that giving it ice punch may be unneccessary. Ice punch could potentially offset the balance of power by allowing this pokemon to more easily hit gliscor and other defensive pokemon. Perhaps we should allow it to have ice shard only. It would still allow it to beat mence, and stone edge kills zapdos better anyway.

When was the last time someone used Gliscor on the CAP Server? I'll give you a hint: I haven't seen one in months. Why does it matter, this is already getting ice moves. I'd rather give it Ice Punch over Ice Shard, at least it's a tutor move. I HATE the idea of priority on this, it takes its only mediocre stat and bypasses it (not counting Special Attack, because this is looking only physical for most sets).

I imagine this guy with a set like

Cap6@ leftovers

Waterfall/ Aqua tail
Rockslide/ Stone edge
ice shard/ brick break (probably not bb because ttar gets worked by waterfall anyway)
recovery (slack off FTW!) / status/ filler

So a fighting move is relegated to a slash on the third option, when arguably it will be the more powerful STAB move? Not buying it.

So then, with this set how does he fare against the top ten?

1. Stratagem (Strat can't come in, but tbolt may be a problem) Thunderbolt Stratagem? Play on the CAP server and you'll see how many Thunderbolt Stratagem there are: None. Giga Drain or even Energy Ball are much more common.
2. Revenankh (With recovery it can pretty much beat every kind) Actually, like latinoheat said, it won't be able to beat Revenankh one on one, since Rev can stall you out.
3. Fidgit (not much to counter, but it does kill fidgit easily)
4. Tyranitar (STAB fighting moves ftw)
5. Zapdos (again, can't come in, and without speed ev's gets wrecked by SE) How can't Zapdos come in, unless you predict like a shitbrick.
6. Syclant (neutral to fighting, but rock destroys it. Not sure how CAP6 will fare if Syclant gets a tail glow) Try Unaware.
   
7. Blissey (LOLfucked)
8. Heatran (destruction)
9. Scizor (Because unaware ignores sd, i don't think it will be too much of a problem)
10. Pyroak (CAP6 isn't really a good counter)

As a general note, back up what you're saying by server experience.

 

[Goodbar]

There is no universe in which a 90 Base power STAB special move that cannot miss and strikes several pokemon 4x weak is "useless." At least not until you hit Weavile-level platform stat.

There is also no universe where Fire Blast is useless. Ever. The mere existence of Scizor, Forretress, Skarmory, and Bronzong put that notion to rest.

Machamp even uses Fire Blast on No Guard Life Orb sets. Or at least, mine do becaue I love the fresh smell of 57% damage to Skarmory in the morning after socking it with a Dynamicpunch. Machamp only has 65 Base SA. This has 70, and additionally FB would cover Grass types that resist Water and Bug types that resist Fighting.

In short, those were two really horrible examples of useless special moves. Try Shock Wave and Power Gem next time.

Wait Fire Blast is useful on machamp? This is news to me ?_?, personally I think Dynamic Punch is good enough to make Skarmory a terrible counter for it. Not to mention to make it useful you have to lower your spdef/def and iirc use LO? Might be useful for Celebi but hey we'll have some good ice options already, anyways Celebi is supposed to be a counter iirc. As for aura sphere, I can't see any use coming out of it when physical fighting is superior especially looking at base stats. There isn't anything weak to fighting in OU that has a much higher defense than special defense. So I vote no on both of those
EDIT: Thunderpunch now that I consider it should be not too useful either, only for starmie, who can recover the damage anyways since it wont be doing more than 50% likely unless the new mon's set is more offensive and it can threaten with psychic. Already should handle gyarados enough with stone edge.

 

[Itchni]

Double Edge/Return could really help on a moveset designed around having recover/support move/waterfall or aqua tail/return

water/normal hits all pokemon for neutral exept empoleon and shedinja

 

[Avocado15]

I think this thing needs Ice Punch/Stone Edge to at least create a prediction game to predict an incoming Zapdos, with ideally Aqua Jet over Mach Punch to give hope to finishing off Zappy.