all should be allowed. The ice moves are an inferior ice punch and punishment does jack to celebi and the rotom formes are rarely 3HKO'd even with 252 Atk adamant.
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CAP 6 CAP 6 - Part 10 - Attacking Moves Discussion
- Thread starter darkie
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Punishment doesn't necessarily do jack to Celebi if it's the CM User fresh off of taking out some other pokemon with a CM or two under its belt. Go-go Revenge Kill.
252 Adamant Punishment to 2 CM 252/0 Celebi: 67-79%. It'd take 3 CMs before it got in OHKO range, sadly. But then, your opponent probably wouldn't want to lose 3 CMs >_>
Rotom doesn't stat-up, So Payback is better.
I don't want to further derail this thread by discussing Bulk Up but want to say that the community should be able to split from game canon if we believe it would help further our goal.
I would also suggest that we should not vote on controversial moves until this issue is cleared up. Some people will approach the controversial moves assuming CAP6 will have a chance of having one Bulk Up until its belt when it uses them, while others will be adamant in their minds that the community will oppose Bulk Up.
If we take Revenankh for example - many people want CAP6 to counter him. Without Bulk Up, CAP6 cannot threaten Rev without supereffective coverage such as Brave Bird. With Bulk Up, CAP6 can threaten with Water STAB.
Relatively low damaging priority moves such as Aqua Jet and Mach Punch will be Alot more controversial if CAP6 gets Bulk Up.
So it is important to discuss/vote on this issue of breaking game canon before deciding whether to allow the controversial moves.
I would also suggest that we should not vote on controversial moves until this issue is cleared up. Some people will approach the controversial moves assuming CAP6 will have a chance of having one Bulk Up until its belt when it uses them, while others will be adamant in their minds that the community will oppose Bulk Up.
If we take Revenankh for example - many people want CAP6 to counter him. Without Bulk Up, CAP6 cannot threaten Rev without supereffective coverage such as Brave Bird. With Bulk Up, CAP6 can threaten with Water STAB.
Relatively low damaging priority moves such as Aqua Jet and Mach Punch will be Alot more controversial if CAP6 gets Bulk Up.
So it is important to discuss/vote on this issue of breaking game canon before deciding whether to allow the controversial moves.
I need an opinion from Doug on whether moves that are learned by all fully-evolved Pokemon of a certain type are up for consideration to be excluded from a CAP Pokemon movepool having that type. (Examples include Sunny Day for Fire and Grass types, Calm Mind for Psychic types, Bulk Up for Fighting types, Ice Beam and Blizzard for Water types, etc.) If they are, then I'll remove the relevant parts from the movepool guide.
I think the Movepool Guide should list what moves are "Required", including moves that are "Required" based on typing. When I made my original comments regarding Bulk Up, I was unaware that Bulk Up was in every Fighting type's movepool. I think you should update the [THREAD=40085]movepool guide[/THREAD] to include a specific list of "Required" moves. Right now, there are a few moves bolded in the TM Section and there are some notes on some of the moves that refer to typing. There is currently no mention in the guide of Bulk Up being required for Fighting types. If there was a dedicated section on Required TM's that list all the type-specific requirements, I think it would be beneficial for future movepool discussions.
I will reiterate that no moves are truly REQUIRED on CAP pokemon, that's why I used the word in quotes above. It's probably more appropriate to say "Almost always required". If we feel a move is competitively unbalanced, then we don't have to put it in the movepool. We can do whatever we want with these pokemon, up to and including creating new moves entirely. Pokemon is filled with "singular exceptions" to certain ingame trends. As such, if we decide to make a pokemon that is the singular exception to a trend, I do not consider such a thing to be completely inconsistent with the real game. We would actually be following the trend of having exceptions to trends!
I don't want to argue over wording and the definition of "canon". In the end, this is our project, and we can do whatever we want. However, we do try to follow the "spirit and example of the actual Pokémon game", to quote the CAP Mission Statement. As such, I think we need to take note of certain game trends, and only break them for very compelling competitive reasons.
I agree, we can't operate in cap if we let nintendo alone decide what's "allowed". we're adhering to game mechanics as far as battling goes, we're just adding in new factors that are any combination of the various items that "make up a pokemon" in general, without necessarily "adhering to to established regularities" that other pokemon display.
now that it's hopefully not taboo, can i suggest that we ban bulk up and swords dance on the (any attack +1 attack (e.g. meditate) should imo be allowed)
now that it's hopefully not taboo, can i suggest that we ban bulk up and swords dance on the (any attack +1 attack (e.g. meditate) should imo be allowed)
I would also argue that we would not be the first ones to do this ("this" meaning breaking an established trend). In order to make it fit the mold that they desired, GameFreak left out Rest from Regigigas' movepool, breaking the existing trend that everything could learn it if they can be taught TM moves. If there are very good competitive reasons not to allow Bulk Up in the movepool of CAP6, I think it should be more important than canon.
I think that CAP6 should get punishment to hit Revenankh. Punishment would work well with its ability.
Finally, I don't think ThunderPunch should be put on CAP6 because no other water type gets it besides ludicolo's evolution line. We don't need CAP6 to counter Gyarados- it isn't even in the top ten usage, and if people really wanted to do something to Gyarados, they could use a non-attacking move like toxic, thunderwave (which even qwilfish/bibarel get) or HP electric.
Keep in mind that most CM Celebis would be faster than CAP6 and could still hit it or switch. Also, that is only useful towards Celebis that stat-up.
Finally, I don't think ThunderPunch should be put on CAP6 because no other water type gets it besides ludicolo's evolution line. We don't need CAP6 to counter Gyarados- it isn't even in the top ten usage, and if people really wanted to do something to Gyarados, they could use a non-attacking move like toxic, thunderwave (which even qwilfish/bibarel get) or HP electric.
Salamence isn't within the top ten but that doesn't stop it from receiving Ice Punch thus putting another nail within it's coffin. Just because it's not within the top ten group doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to counter and/or possibly check it. Since you already mention a pre-existing Water type pokemon with Thunder Punch in the form of Ludicolo, why can't CAP6 learn Thunder Punch?
Gyarados is faster than you and probably Taunt your ass well before you could Toxic/Thunder Wave him. It's better to just ThunderPunch him and be done with the creature or just give it Thunderbolt if you're soo worried about losing your Bulky Waters. It still counters Gyarados while keeping Tenta and possibly a few other Bulky Waters as a potent counter/check as it can't possible 2HKO the jelly with TB, even if it max out SpA. Seriously, I suggest we add Thunderbolt and Shock Wave into the list of allowed moves. Even if they're allowed you don't have to add them into the final movepool, can't you people remember that.
Ludicolo resists electric moves through it's secondary type though. There's no electric-weak water that learns Thunderpunch. I would have less of an objection to the likes of Thunderbolt because there is a bit of precedent with them being learned by Gyarados and Lapras.
He/She said "no other water type gets Thunderpunch [beside Ludicolo]" which didn't specifically say anything about said users had to be weak to said move. Since Colo is part Water, he counts towards being predecent toward learning an physical electric move. They're a whole crapload of Water-types that can learn electric typed moves so I'm having trouble seeing the problem with teaching this Pokemon any electric whatsoever from a flavor standpoint.
I say allow Thunderbolt, Shock Wave, or Spark as those moves won't turn CAP6 into some kind of unstoppable monster. Both Thunderbolt and Shock Wave are going off it's weaker stat which would force to invest more onto it's SpA thus reducing it's offensive and/or defensive strength or max SpA and defeat the purpose of being geared towards physical offense. Spark is inferior to Thunder Punch so again no worries there.
I like this line of thinking to support that all Electric Moves should stay controversial as well, if not completely banned. Why even support any Electric moves when STAB Fight and Water moves will net the same amount of damage to Water pogeys sans Gyarados, Starmie, and Tentacruel. I'm positive that CAP6 will still be wildly popular even though it has a few more checks/counters.
I was also in the line of thinking that this pokemon is guaranteed to have Bulk Up because its a fighting type. I hear some arguments saying that this pokemon is going to be broken with Bulk Up once we give it its amazing movepool. But how's this for a counter argument: Why are we going to give CAP 6 amazing universal coverage when we are aware that every fighting pokemon gets Bulk Up?
Furthermore, why are people even arguing against giving CAP6, a fighting type, Bulk Up? Because we already have another amazing Bulk Upper from CAP2? Maybe we should collectively, as a community, stop trying to make the same kind of pokemon. You know, another part Fighting Type with great Dual STAB and awesome defensive typing that has great stats across the board so no pokemon can counter it.
I would support this.
CAP6 Needs excellent type coverage in order to do its job as decentraliser, but it does not need +1&+1(Bulk Up) or +2(Swords Dance) stat boosting moves in order to fulfil the concept.
In fact both of these would go against the concept as they would cause CAP6 to become a threatening sweeper in its own right. This is not what we want our CAP6 to be... right?
Can Shadow Claw be moved to Unallowed as there have been several arguments against Super Effective coverage against Psychics, a general consensus that it should not be allowed has been reached and Bug moves have already been banned which preserves Psychic types as counters.
I'd like to inquire why zen headbutt is allowed, there is not huge precedent for it. And it's rather rare for a fighting type pokemon to have access to it. Lucario and Gallade being the only two fighting types to get it (Lucario because he a specially based, and Gallade because it is a psychic type.). CAP6 is of course, neither. I think it should be at least subject to a vote. I'd either like some solid reasoning, or to move Zen Headbutt from Allowed to Controversial
Counter-wise zen headbutt allows it to beat Weezing, and maybe help for Revenakh? It really isn't a huge help of a move, but that does not mean in anyway that it would be allowed instantaneously. It's 18% stronger than Aqua Tail against both of those, so it's not a huge loss at all if it gets voted down.
Counter-wise zen headbutt allows it to beat Weezing, and maybe help for Revenakh? It really isn't a huge help of a move, but that does not mean in anyway that it would be allowed instantaneously. It's 18% stronger than Aqua Tail against both of those, so it's not a huge loss at all if it gets voted down.
Following are some quotes that support the removal of Super Effective coverage against Psychics from CAP6's movepool, with the notable exception of Punishment. This should be reasoning enough to Move Shadow Claw and Payback to Unallowed.
Shadow Claw has already been discussed but lets consider Payback specifically. 50BP is low but with several Psychic counters such as Starmie and Celebi being faster than CAP6, its BP will often be boosted to 100. This is a serious threat to Psychics and can also be used to hit Psychic counters switching in for 100BP. As a result of Payback's additional effects, I think that it is just as powerful as X-Scissor, Crunch and Shadow Claw (and Attack Order, Ha) so Payback should be moved to Unallowed.
Shadow Claw has already been discussed but lets consider Payback specifically. 50BP is low but with several Psychic counters such as Starmie and Celebi being faster than CAP6, its BP will often be boosted to 100. This is a serious threat to Psychics and can also be used to hit Psychic counters switching in for 100BP. As a result of Payback's additional effects, I think that it is just as powerful as X-Scissor, Crunch and Shadow Claw (and Attack Order, Ha) so Payback should be moved to Unallowed.
Yes, but 21/37 who actually learn the move by leveling up arent psychic type, its not a reclusive move. Also, Medicham can get it as well, also a fighting type.
And I say it should stay allowed, because it adds diversity to the set, and does help against Revenankh and Weezing, but also primarily, because the move itself is one that would work well on the Pokemon.
I agree, Zen Headbutt should remain Allowed as its Super Effective coverage on Fidgit and Revenankh is useful and helps it fulfill the concept of checking the Top 5. Revenankh is particularly problematic for CAP6 to dispatch so Super Effective coverage is particularly warranted for him. Yes CAP6 only has to check a Majority of the Top 5, but since Unaware is such a useful Ability against Revenankh, it would be sensible to give CAP6 useful Coverage against Revenankh too.
billymills, your reasoning why Lucario should get Zen Headbutt is that he is specially based? So what? Apart from the fact that he's actually Mixed, Zen Headbutt is a Physical move so being specially based would be a reason Not to get it. I would say that flavourwise Zen Headbutt fits very well with Unaware since if you're a zen Buddhist (the origin of the word 'zen') you meditate and are therefore Unaware of your surroundings. But flavour doesnt matter - competitively Zen Headbutt is useful for fulfilling the Concept.
billymills, your reasoning why Lucario should get Zen Headbutt is that he is specially based? So what? Apart from the fact that he's actually Mixed, Zen Headbutt is a Physical move so being specially based would be a reason Not to get it. I would say that flavourwise Zen Headbutt fits very well with Unaware since if you're a zen Buddhist (the origin of the word 'zen') you meditate and are therefore Unaware of your surroundings. But flavour doesnt matter - competitively Zen Headbutt is useful for fulfilling the Concept.
also, to those who are talking about coverage issues...almost all fighting types get the elemental punches, which give great coverage when combined with the fighting, dark, rock, and ground moves in almost every fighting types movepool, as well as a few other types. giving this thunderpunch does not really give it any more potential coverage than any other fighter has.
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