CAP 6 CAP 6 - Part 13b - Complete Movepool Poll

[darkie]

This is Arghonaut

Name: Decentralizer
Description: A Pokemon can check a majority of the current top 5 Pokemon.

Type: Water / Fight
Ability: Unaware
Stats: 105 HP / 110 Atk / 95 Def / 70 SpA / 100 SpD / 75 Spe

For the record, the current top 10 on the CAP server are:

1. Stratagem
2. Revenankh
3. Fidgit
4. Tyranitar
5. Zapdos
6. Syclant
7. Blissey
8. Heatran
9. Scizor
10. Pyroak

TMs in every movepool:

TM01 - Focus Punch
TM03 - Water Pulse
TM06 - Toxic
TM07 - Hail
TM10 - Hidden Power
TM12 - Taunt
TM13 - Ice Beam
TM14 - Blizzard
TM15 - Hyper Beam
TM17 - Protect
TM18 - Rain Dance
TM15 - Hyper Beam
TM17 - Protect
TM18 - Rain Dance
TM21 - Frustration
TM27 - Return
TM31 - Brick Break
TM32 - Double Team
TM36 - Sludge Bomb
TM39 - Rock Tomb
TM41 - Torment
TM42 - Facade
TM43 - Secret Power
TM44 - Rest
TM45 - Attract
TM46 - Thief
TM49 - Snatch
TM54 - False Swipe
TM55 - Brine
TM56 - Fling
TM58 - Endure
TM60 - Drain Punch
TM63 - Embargo
TM68 - Giga Impact
TM77 - Psych Up
TM78 - Captivate
TM80 - Rock Slide
TM82 - Sleep Talk
TM83 - Natural Gift
TM87 - Swagger
TM90 - Substitute
HM03 - Surf
HM04 - Strength
HM06 - Rock Smash
HM07 - Waterfall

TMs:

TM05 - Roar
TM20 - Safeguard
TM26 - Earthquake
TM28 - Dig
TM72 - Avalanche
TM84 - Poison Jab

Notable Level-Up/Egg moves (Water 1/Water 3):
21. Aqua Jet
27. Mach Punch
60. Punishment

- Bulk Up (Poliwrath/Buizel)
- Cross Chop (Psyduck)
- Recover (Corsola/Milotic/Shellos/Lileep)

Notable Tutor Moves:
- Dive
- Ice Punch
- Icy Wind
- Thunderpunch
- Zen Headbutt
- Snore
- Uproar
- Gunk Shot
- Iron Head
- Mud-slap
- Superpower

Reasoning:
First, the level-up moves... they lack a consistent, powerful Fighting move. This is done on purpose, as shall be seen later.

The TM list lacks Bulk Up... but it is included in the breeding moves list! (Ninetales also has this anomaly... it learns Energy Ball via breeding but not via TM.) The reason why I did this is the following.

The Egg moves list has three moves that are obviously competitive: Bulk Up, Cross Chop and Recover. However, each of these breeding moves are exclusive, since they don't share any bred Pokemon whatsoever. So, if you want a consistent and powerful Fighting move in Cross Chop, you'll need to say goodbye both to Bulk Up and to Recover. If you want to use Bulk Up, you'll need to forfeit your recovery move and a powerful consistent Fighting move. And if you want to heal yourself, you cannot hit using Cross Chop and you cannot raise your Attack.

This allows me to insert Aqua Jet, Mach Punch, Thunderpunch, Ice Punch, Earthquake and Stone Edge in the movepool. You cannot abuse them as much as you want, since you can only choose one out of Cross Chop, Bulk Up and Recover.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1695307&postcount=46

TMs:

TM08 - Bulk Up
TM40 - Aerial Ace
TM52 - Focus Blast
TM72 - Avalanche
TM88 - Pluck
TM91 - Flash Cannon
HM01 - Cut

Notable Level-Up/Egg moves (Water 1/Humanshape):
15. Aqua Jet
25. Punishment
38. Cross Chop
43. Low Kick
59. Hydro Pump

Encore (Machamp/Infernape/Dewgong/Quagsire/Cacturne/Walrein)
Mach Punch (Hitmonchan/Hitmonlee/Hitmontop/Infernape/Magmortar)
Ice Shard (Dewgong/Lapras/Delibird)
Haze (Blastoise/Poliwrath/Quagsire/Octillery/Mantine/Milotic)

Notable Tutor Moves:
- Fury Cutter
- Ice Punch
- Icy Wind
- Knock Off
- Vacuum Wave
- Zen Headbutt
- Snore
- Uproar
- Bounce
- Gastro Acid
- Gunk Shot
- Iron Defense
- Iron Head
- Superpower

Reasoning:
-No Thunderpunch
-Bulk Up
-Anti-Counters: Punishment, Zen Headbutt, Stone Edge, Pluck/AA, Bounce.
-Split Priority Moves (See Breeding Chart Above), Aqua Jet/Bullet Punch/Vacuum Wave standard, Mach Punch or Ice Shard through breeding.
-Unique support:
Move jamming: Encore, Taunt, Torment, Snatch
Item jamming: Knock Off, Thief, Embargo
Ability jamming: Gastro Acid
Stat-Up punishers: Psyche Up, Haze
Other: Aqua Ring, Stockpile series, Wrap/Whirlpool.
-Fighting STAB options: Focus Punch, Superpower, Cross Chop, Low Kick, Brick Break, Drain Punch, Revenge

Of which, I think Cross Chop overshadows Low Kick competitively because of it's consistently high power. Low Kick hits a select few things harder, but does worse overall, especially to lightweight Psychic, Poison, and Flying switchins. Revenge has its own drawback of being slower out than Focus Punch, and conditional upon receiving damage to be effective.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1697078&postcount=65

TMs:

TM20 - Safeguard
TM26 - Earthquake
TM28 - Dig
TM37 - Sandstorm
TM52 - Focus Blast
TM84 - Poison Jab
TM91 - Flash Cannon
HM08 - Rock Climb

Notable Level-Up/Egg moves (Water3/Humanshape):
36. Counter
39. Cross Chop
55. Hydro Pump

Aqua Jet (Kabutops)
Mach Punch (Hitmonchan/Hitmonlee/Hitmontop/Infernape/Magmortar)
Encore (Mr. Mime/Alakazam/Machamp/Spinda/Infernape/Lopunny)

Notable Tutor Moves:
Dive
Ice Punch
Icy Wind
Knock Off
Thunderpunch
Vacuum Wave
Zen Headbutt
Aincientpower
Bounce
Superpower

Key things:
No 50% recovery
No Thunderwave (Body Slam or Glare if you really want paralysis)
Bulk Up included
Thunderpunch now included
Aqua Jet and Mach Punch available but not on the same set

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1697748&postcount=71

TMs:

TM08 - Bulk Up
TM16 - Light Screen
TM20 - Safeguard
TM26 - Earthquake
TM28 - Dig
TM33 - Reflect
TM72 - Avalanche
TM73 - Thunder Wave
TM84 - Poison Jab
 
does NOT include: 
TM36 - Sludge Bomb
TM63 - Embargo

Notable Level-Up/Egg moves (Water 1/Humanshape group):
33. Yawn
45. Drill Peck
51. Cross Chop
61. Hydro Pump

- Recover
- Mirror Coat
- Low Kick
- Force Palm

Notable Tutor Moves:
- Ice Punch
- Knock Off
- Superpower
- Thunderpunch
- Vacuum Wave

I'm somewhat big on having a recovery move not named Rest/Wish on CAP6 at the moment since people seem afraid of them. Mirror Coat majority here because I needed something to separate myself from the rest of the submitters and because of it's usefulness. To be honest, I never did like Counter&Mirror Coat, prediction heavy move are a pain in the ass in my opinion. Surprisingly enough, 16 water type Pokemon learn Mirror Coat in one way or other. The rest are flavor moves deemed most fitting.

Main Movepool Selling Points:
- 50% recovery move in the form of Recover
- Bulk Up is within it's movepool
- Cross Chop for main stab, Superpower for Choice set. Low Kick is an alternative for both.
- ThunderPunch and Stone Edge are added.
- Drill Peck for coverage against Fighting types.
- No physical priority moves.
- Unique Egg moves: Mirror Coat, Drill Peck, and Force Palm
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1697862&postcount=73

TMs:

TM02 - Dragon Claw
TM04 - Calm Mind
TM08 - Bulk Up
TM16 - Light Screen
TM20 - Safeguard
TM26 - Earthquake
TM28 - Dig
TM33 - Reflect
TM40 - Aerial Ace
TM72 - Avalanche
TM73 - Thunder Wave
TM79 - Dark Pulse
TM84 - Poison Jab

Notable Egg Moves/Levelup (Water1 / Ground)
37. Sky Uppercut
39. Hydro Pump
57. Close Combat

- Aqua Jet
- Mach Punch
- Cross Chop
- Recover

Notable move tutors:
- Ice Punch
- Thunderpunch
- Superpower
- Trick
- Zen Headbutt

So far these are the details. All the necessary TMs are included. Thunder Wave is controversial, but I think it should be allowed, I would like a more solid opinion on that by the consensus. Thunder Wave is basically allowed because the squid can use its ink to paralyze while the ninja can use its tentacles to well paralyze as well. On the competitive side though, it helps the Pokemon in general, as it lowers the speed of its opposition giving it relatively high speed, and with being bulky it can act like a tank too (remember my concept a while back?) The pirate looks like it can use Dark Pulse, although it won't matter either way since the SpA base stat is too low to take advantage of this. Stone Edge is used since it is on all Fighting-types (or well the ones I actually know and play with...) Aerial Ace is one of those moves with low Base Power, but can be used, and since it is going to be probably the only Flying-type Attacking move, I decided to include it. It won't see much use, but there is no limit to the creativity. Poison Jab makes sense if you think about it, one is a squid, while one looks like a lethal attacker and had a poisonous color scheme as CyzirVisheen had shown. Most of these moves are non-controversial, if they do spark some controversy I want a consensus or at least an opinion that you can back up.

Ice Punch + Thunderpunch = Pseudo-BoltBeam. Thunderpunch is allowed well because of Gyarados, and because of Flying-types. Stone Edge can also be used so it has no real purpose than for flavor, although I think this is a bit controversial and can be removed. Elevator Music, SoT, tennisace, etc. Your guys opinion? Helping Hand + Iron Defense. These are support moves and basically Helping Hand doesn't matter but Iron Defense does. I think the ability to buff up your defenses should be allowed as it brings no real purpose if you have Bulk Up. At least it can have some use, why limit creativity if you really don't have to? Superpower is there as that move I think it needs. It is a Fighting-type and most of them have Superpower as a move tutor move.

Pretty basic here. All 3 competitive moves are used. Close Combat, Aqua Jet , and Sky Uppercut to note. Close Combat is the premier move, while Hydro Pump is the move needed to make this seem not so broken movepool wise. The rest are all just basic moves. This is pretty self-explanatory. Any controversy?

The repetition of the Punches, while the weak priority moves of Mach Punch and Aqua Jet are gained. The rest are all fillers except Recover. Recover is there as I didn't really want to fit any where else. This also allows for illegal combinations no matter what egg groups ;)
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1688038&postcount=10

TMs:

TM20 - Safeguard
TM33 - Reflect
TM52 - Focus Blast
TM84 - Poison Jab
HM01 - Cut
 
does NOT include:
Rock Slide
Blizzard

Notable Levelup/egg moves (Water 1):
H. Aqua Jet
23. Revenge
29. Punishment
52. Hammer Arm

Pursuit: Wingull, Floatzel
Recover: Corsola, Milotic, Gastrodon

Notable move tutor moves:
Ice Punch
Trick
Superpower

As an overview, here's the important things mine has/doesn't have:
- No Bulk Up/Curse
- Only 1 priority move in Aqua Jet
- Superpower/Hammer Arm as high powered Fighting STAB
- Stone Edge to hit Gyara, Zapdos, and to a lesser extent Salamence
- No Thunderpunch^
- Ice Punch to further hit Salamence and is the second most punishing move to Celebi switchins
- A recovery move.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1688152&postcount=15

TMs

TM52 - Focus Blast

Notable LU/egg (Water 1):
14. Aqua Jet
18. Mach Punch
52. Cross Chop

- Slack Off: (Slowpoke)
- Zen Headbutt: (Slowpoke, Psyduck, Lotad)
- Pursuit: (Wingull, Floatzel)

Notable tutor moves:
- Ice Punch
- Thunder Punch
- Zen Headbutt
- Superpower

Summary of Movepool Selling Points
- No Bulk Up/Curse
- Aqua Jet and Mach Punch both allowed
- Cross Chop as main Fighting STAB, Superpower for Choice sets.
- Stone Edge, Thunderpunch, Ice Punch and Zen Headbutt so that this can threaten Waters and Flyings but fails to Psychics. Zen Headbutt is the only decent SE hit on Revenankh so is much needed.
- A 50% recovery move.
- Useful support moves including Yawn, Haze, Acid Armour, Aqua Ring, Glare, Mean Look, Counter and Stockpile
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1695184&postcount=42

 

[darkie]

phew, that took a while. anyway, vote for the movepool which you think will help the concept the best!

 

[Hyra]

X-Act

First post after darkie, whoo!

anyways, X-Act's separates Bulk Up from Recover while allowing both, exactly what I wanted.

 

[User 12783]

I vote Gothic Togekiss ;)

Also:

This is Arghonaut

Epic <3

 

[dmlaw]

Voting for me, although I'm sure I don't have a chance.

I really don't like X-Act's egg move shenanigans at all.

 

[Coronis]

Voted for Gothic Togekiss, mirror coat could really help.

 

[WaffleChan]

Voted X-Act though after reviewing them I kinda wish I'd chosen Gothic Togekiss, IMo they're the best two and I'll be happy with eather of them. Though X-Act's set getting Roar is the major selling point for me. I guess I am happy with my descision :P

 

[Magmortified]

X-Act always.

:D

 

[Goodbar]

jagged angel

X-act's is close to what I want too but I'd rather cross chop be compatible with recover and wouldn't mind it being compatible with bulk up either

 

[RBG]

If X-act had Bulk-Up on his TM list, then i might vote for it, but i think that breaking a standard TM for all fighting types (yess i know it is an egg move) is something i do not want to support. I do not think that it needs to have Bulk Up/Recover or Bulk Up/Cross Chop split. This thing will be no where close to the powerhouse Rev is, so i dont see what the big fuss is about it getting bulk up as a TM

 

[Elevator Music]

Voted myself, though if it was multipoll I would have voted jagged's, because it also doesn't have Bulk Up but has recovery.

 

[alive]

why is punishment a notable level up move if it has unaware? unless im wrong about the mechanics of punishment, does it still give a power increase to punishment if unaware blocks out the stat up?

 

[tennisace]

why is punishment a notable level up move if it has unaware? unless im wrong about the mechanics of punishment, does it still give a power increase to punishment if unaware blocks out the stat up?

RB-Golbat's theory is yes, it gives the power increase. He said he would test it later.

 

[Bogmire]

Voted for Gothic Togekiss.

 

[speedwobbles225]

Voted for Elevator music because including Bulk Up + 50% Recovery with 100 base special defense is insane.

You can argue celebi isn't gamebreaking with a similar deal but this thing doesn't have shitty typing/4x weaks or bad stab attacks. It's stabs are actually really REALLY good seing as how many things can get away with mono water.

 

[Ziggy]

why is punishment a notable level up move if it has unaware? unless im wrong about the mechanics of punishment, does it still give a power increase to punishment if unaware blocks out the stat up?

The thing about Unaware is that it doesn't remove statups. It simply ignores them when the opposing pokemon attacks and gets attacked.

 

[nihilist]

eh, voted sikh assassin
i wanted physical priority moves and access to cross chop and recover

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

I really don't like X-Act's egg move shenanigans at all.

Same here, but the majority of voters seem to love the idea. Seem the community is slightly contradicting about their priorities but that's nothing new. CAP members/voters tend to always have it's change of heart as the project go further down the road of completion. It's good at times but equally it's bad at times.

BTW I totally respect X-Act in every way and isn't questioning his wisdom/sanity, but I just don't understand his master plan behind splitting Cross Chop, Bulk Up, and Recover. Maybe I'm more of an all or nothing person in that it's either have them all within easy access or don't have them at all. Maybe after people invent moveset for Arghonaut will I understand him. For now, the whole thing irks me out.

 

[Bull of Heaven]

I know that flavor is never the first priority and is often ignored in these projects, but can anyone explain how Glare, which is known as Snake Glare in Japan and is only learned by snake-like pokemon (not counting Revenankh of course), got into some of these lists? Ampharos doesn't learn Tail Glow, and I think we should follow that precedent and not give (Snake) Glare to Arghonaut.

I voted for X-Act, mainly because the separation of Cross Chop, Bulk Up and Recover looks interesting. I'm predicting that the Bulk Up moveset will become the standard, with Recover getting occasional use and no love for Cross Chop.

 

[LonelyNess]

I really dislike X-act's movepool. I see the reason why Recover + Bulk Up together could be a problem, but I really don't see why Recover + Cross Chop is so broken, or even Bulk Up + Cross Chop. It's not like Zapdos is broken because it gets Roost and a reliable damaging move. Why should this Pokemon be without reliable STAB just because it gets a 50% recovery move? It honestly seems really stupid to me. Not having reliable STAB keeps so many Pokemon from being even competetively viable, we dont' want the same thing to happen to Arghonaut.

For the record I voted for Deck Knight because his was the only submission to include Ice Shard.

 

[Genesis of Oblivion]

X-Act Ftw i like how he's cleverly seperated egg moves, but i dislike the fact that you can't have cross chop+recover or bulk up + cross chop.

 

[zarator]

X-Act seemed the best to me. I was contrary to a self-healing move, since I intended CAP6 as a check, not a counter which can come in multiple times, but the way it is included in X-Act movepool seems kinda fair.
I don't find the other ones are bad - heck, they are surely better than anything I could do - but X-Act seemed better to me. Again, just my opinion.

 

[X-Act]

Just to note that my movepool has Punishment as well, which darkie failed to mention. :O

 

[Frosty]

I also voted for X-act.

Even though I really dislike the fact that Cross Chop is included on the egg group moves, it has Bulk Up and Recover without having both at the same time (huge plus IMO), has both thunder and ice punches and Stone Edge and has both Mach Punch and Aqua Jet (another huge plus for me). Also, in the end it has a viable option to fight against the top 10 (except maybe for Scizor, but it resists both STABs anyway, so I don't think it will be a problem).

So, yeah, go go X-act.

 

[Venom]

X-Act