Pokemon Philosophy: Is abusing the RNG cheating?

[Blitzkreig Harmonic]

Hi, on GameFAQs I got into this multi-hundred post argument on whether or not abusing the RNG is considered cheating. Now, these kinds of topics are usually derailed by mob mentalities after the first few replies, so a certain viewpoint becomes cemented, so instead of leaving the topic at this I will produce the two opposing viewpoints.

The argument that it is cheating relies on the fact that it is a random number generator. By figuring out the pattern, we have made it unrandom and thus violated the rules of the game as set forward by GameFreak.

My own viewpoint, and the pro-RNG abuse one, is that having figured out the RNG is no different than having made any other variable in the game visible when it was invisible, such as EVs or IVs. If abusing the RNG is cheating because it shows us what was hidden, by the same logic EVs and IVs being made visible is in violation as well. Furthermore, I propose that abusing the RNG is not cheating because you are confined to the parameters of the game and thus playing by its intended rules. No data is being overwritten and no memory is being changed.

I'd like to hear good discussion over this.

 

[lati0s]

breeding is merely a means to an end, the easier all people can get well IV'd pokemon the fairer the game is.

 

[Blitzkreig Harmonic]

breeding is merely a means to an end, the easier all people can get well IV'd pokemon the fairer the game is.

I agree, but here we're questioning the legitimacy of the RNG.

 

[Game Freak201]

My viewpoint on this is that if something is done in the game without the direct use of a cheating device(i.e. Action Replay), then it isn't cheating. If "RNG abuse" is cheating, then the exploitation of IVs, EVs, and the GTS glitch would also fall into the category of cheating. Since the majority of people believe that the use of these factors aren't cheating, then "RNG abuse" isn't cheating either.

 

[fosskers]

I consider the use of the RNG legitimate. Analysis of it has already required tons of effort, proving it to be a complicated process deep in mathematics. Its practical execution isn't exactly a walk in the park, either. A typical cheating device gives you results with extremely minimal effort.

In an RPG that demands our time, can we not ask for just a little of it back? Hatching pokemon through RNG abuse takes a lot less time, considering the result, as well as how long it would take to hatch a pokemon of similar quality by normal means. As stated above, it is a means to an end, and does not actually go outside of the bounds of what the programming of the game allows.

Can you really blame fate when your poke gets taken down by a shiny legendary with perfect EVs and a convenient Hidden Power? Can you really say the opponent is a cheater, and that you are not at all at fault for not being prepared for that situation? Just because something is inconvenient to you does not mean it should not exist, or that its use should be forbidden.

RNG abuse is not cheating.

 

[Zog]

It's completely within the limits of the game, and while this statement opens up another can of worms, RNG abuse is only really open to people who know a lot about the game. In the same way that EV training puts you a notch ahead of anyone who doesn't EV train, RNG abuse puts you a notch ahead of all but the very best of IV breeders and the most persistent of legend SR-ers while giving those who use legit pokémon more of a chance at beating someone who uses legal hacks.

While initially it may seem unfair, RNG abuse creates a legitimate alternative to using legal hacks and as such discourages legal hacks. And most of all it makes it plausible to get legit shiny legendaries: no more getting screwed over by the countless (BAN ME PLEASE) trading all-pokémon-shiny-code'd shiny legends. Hacking a shiny then trading it as if it was legit is the most despicable thing a Pokémon trader can do. Not only does an AR make it easy to get tons of illegit shiny legendaries, but the hacker will also be drawn towards trading them and so you have a twofold increase in shit flying into the trading centres. And on top of that, you can't tell if it was ARed until it's already been traded to you.

RNG abuse has saved myself and countless others from all the BS of online trading. That in itself makes it wonderful.

 

[Annoying Old Party Man]

The Rng is not cheating. It takes heaps of skill to do correctly, and if it was cheating, cloning and other stuff like that would also be cheating. If we couldnt clone, no one would trade there flawless breeds, instead of giving them away for free. If no one had competitive pokemon given to them, they would have to breed for days just to get one pokemon. We would lose a lot of competitive pokemon players if they had to spend months breeding pokemon just to be competitive.

 

[Tytus]

Hi, on GameFAQs I got into this multi-hundred post argument on whether or not abusing the RNG is considered cheating. Now, these kinds of topics are usually derailed by mob mentalities after the first few replies, so a certain viewpoint becomes cemented, so instead of leaving the topic at this I will produce the two opposing viewpoints.

The argument that it is cheating relies on the fact that it is a random number generator. By figuring out the pattern, we have made it unrandom and thus violated the rules of the game as set forward by GameFreak.
If the argument that it is cheating relies on the "fact" that it is a random number generator, then that argument fails because the number generator is NOT random. If it was random, there would be no pattern to figure out.

My own viewpoint, and the pro-RNG abuse one, is that having figured out the RNG is no different than having made any other variable in the game visible when it was invisible, such as EVs or IVs. If abusing the RNG is cheating because it shows us what was hidden, by the same logic EVs and IVs being made visible is in violation as well. Furthermore, I propose that abusing the RNG is not cheating because you are confined to the parameters of the game and thus playing by its intended rules. No data is being overwritten and no memory is being changed.
Agreed. It is no less part of the game than EVs or Hidden Power type.

I'd like to hear good discussion over this.

I think most people are against this because they are bitter over the fact that people can now get in under an hour what used to take many weeks, and they feel that this is unfair. My old Pokemon are basically worthless now too, along with everyone elses, but I don't give a shit. I'll just rebreed them with the PRNG.

 

[Carl]

From the "Process of PID and IV Creation of Non-Bred Pokemon" guide on the Smogon website:

Whenever a random event occurs in the Pokemon games, and indeed in the majority of games, the randomness of the event is not truly random, but is governed by a mathematical formula that generates so-called pseudo-random numbers. When we say pseudo-random, we mean that the numbers generated are not truly random numbers, but are sort-of fake random numbers.

It's not random nor are most "random number generators" found in electronics. There's a certain algorithm the game uses to produce a set of IVs and it was deciphered. Much like the damage formula or an IV checking formula. Is it cheating to know the range of damage you can do against another pokemon before a battle even starts? Is it cheating to find out what IVs your newly bred pokemon has? I think most would say no to both of those rhetorical questions. The "RNG abuse" is in the same boat.

 

[Blitzkreig Harmonic]

I'll play the devil's advocate here though (because otherwise the people I'm going show this thread to will never leave me alone). Aren't you breaking the rules of the game? As in, the random number generator is meant to be random, and when you take the random out of it, you're breaking it. Of course GameFreak couldn't make a perfectly random way to hide the numbers -- it's impossible. But they tried. The random number generator is meant to be random, and when you take a peek inside the black box, you're breaking the conditions under which to play the game.

Of course I disagree with that line of though and have brought up IVs, EVs, and even damage calcs, but the people aren't seeming to get it.

 

[Blitzkreig Harmonic]

The Rng is not cheating. It takes heaps of skill to do correctly, and if it was cheating, cloning and other stuff like that would also be cheating. If we couldnt clone, no one would trade there flawless breeds, instead of giving them away for free. If no one had competitive pokemon given to them, they would have to breed for days just to get one pokemon. We would lose a lot of competitive pokemon players if they had to spend months breeding pokemon just to be competitive.

Just because it makes things easier doesn't justify it, hell AR makes things far easier, but it's considered cheating. Not saying I'm against abusing the RNG, but this train of thought is flawed.

 

[Canada]

I don't believe that RNG abuse is "cheating", but I do have a problem when my FELLOW rng abusers use a "no legal hacks" clause. I feel that is unnecessary because it doesn't seem right to get "perfect" pokemon and then do your best to avoid battling any. That is just my opinion, however.

 

[Blitzkreig Harmonic]

I don't believe that RNG abuse is "cheating", but I do have a problem when my FELLOW rng abusers use a "no legal hacks" clause. I feel that is unnecessary because it doesn't seem right to get "perfect" pokemon and then do your best to avoid battling any. That is just my opinion, however.

They're not avoiding fighting perfect Pokemon... they just want to play legit. RNG abusers will have no problem fighting fellow RNG abusers who got their perfect Pokemon by fair means.

 

[blasphemy1]

It's completely within the limits of the game, and while this statement opens up another can of worms, RNG abuse is only really open to people who know a lot about the game. In the same way that EV training puts you a notch ahead of anyone who doesn't EV train, RNG abuse puts you a notch ahead of all but the very best of IV breeders and the most persistent of legend SR-ers while giving those who use legit pokémon more of a chance at beating someone who uses legal hacks.

While initially it may seem unfair, RNG abuse creates a legitimate alternative to using legal hacks and as such discourages legal hacks. And most of all it makes it plausible to get legit shiny legendaries: no more getting screwed over by the countless (BAN ME PLEASE) trading all-pokémon-shiny-code'd shiny legends. Hacking a shiny then trading it as if it was legit is the most despicable thing a Pokémon trader can do. Not only does an AR make it easy to get tons of illegit shiny legendaries, but the hacker will also be drawn towards trading them and so you have a twofold increase in shit flying into the trading centres. And on top of that, you can't tell if it was ARed until it's already been traded to you.

RNG abuse has saved myself and countless others from all the BS of online trading. That in itself makes it wonderful.

This, any person can go out and buy an Action Replay for $15, meanwhile researching the RNG actually take time and effort.

 

[Canada]

They're not avoiding fighting perfect Pokemon... they just want to play legit. RNG abusers will have no problem fighting fellow RNG abusers who got their perfect Pokemon by fair means.

"Legit" is all relative to one's personal views. Like an above poster said, "It's a means to an end". It doesn't matter HOW someone got perfect pokemon, but merely THAT they have them. RNG abuse is by no means rocket science, but it seems wrong to take advantage of the fact that around 70% of the battlers here don't feel like taking the time to understand the intricacies of the RNG and instead go out and get an AR (just a different "means to an end")

Edit: @ Blasphemy, how can you put a price on someone else's time? Maybe they have a job, family, school, etc., so that they cannot afford to spend the time on RNG, but would still like to be competitive in Pokemon?

 

[Black Buddha]

AS X-Act said, all this has done by being able to crack the mathematical formula that makes it work.
If this is considered cheating, well then, all our famous physicists and mathematicians have been "cheating" with the Universe.
Im sure NO ONE would say that Newton and Einstein "cheated".

 

[blasphemy1]

"Legit" is all relative to one's personal views. Like an above poster said, "It's a means to an end". It doesn't matter HOW someone got perfect pokemon, but merely THAT they have them. RNG abuse is by no means rocket science, but it seems wrong to take advantage of the fact that around 70% of the battlers here don't feel like taking the time to understand the intricacies of the RNG and instead go out and get an AR (just a different "means to an end")

Edit: @ Blasphemy, how can you put a price on someone else's time? Maybe they have a job, family, school, etc., so that they cannot afford to spend the time on RNG, but would still like to be competitive in Pokemon?

Go play shoddy battle? It isn't anyone elses fault except your own if you decide to put school in front of pokemon(and rightfully so). Are you forced to use perfect pokemon? No. You can't just look at the destination alone, you must look at the road traveled. There is a reason the wifi forums allow RNG abuse but typically not AR. You don't have to trade/battle/etc. with other players, so there is no point in arguing it.

 

[Carl]

I'll play the devil's advocate here though (because otherwise the people I'm going show this thread to will never leave me alone). Aren't you breaking the rules of the game? As in, the random number generator is meant to be random, and when you take the random out of it, you're breaking it. Of course GameFreak couldn't make a perfectly random way to hide the numbers -- it's impossible. But they tried. The random number generator is meant to be random, and when you take a peek inside the black box, you're breaking the conditions under which to play the game.

The random number generator is just a means in which the game uses to spit out sets of IVs. It's functional and helps with the variability in individual pokemon that IVs are supposed to represent. By the inherent nature of random number generators, there's no way to make this process truly random but this is the next best thing. The intent is there, sure, but at the end of the day the results will inevitably be the same whether you breed blindly or if you use the RNG to your advantage. Both methods are still using the same algorithm inside the game to make the pokemon after all. I don't see how it's breaking the conditions of how the game should be played when both methods follow the same rules that govern it. One is just more aware of those rules and how they work. It would be an act of futility to ignore these constraints and stumble forward blindly hoping to get "lucky." I use the term lucky loosely here since your luck is already predetermined by this algorithm!

That's my understanding of it, anyway.

 

[Zog]

The old "I use AR because I don't have the time" argument drives me up the wall. If you 'don't have the time', do it gradually. If cheating devices didn't exist, online gaming would be so much more fun. But of course money and demand from noobs have to go and ruin everything and yeah a cheating device was bound to appear sooner or later.

Plus everyone has work/school, etc. Anyone who uses that argument is a plonker, end of really. If they have enough time to argue with anyone over why they use AR, they have enough time to RNG and do it properly just like everyone else who likely has the same commitments anyway.

 

[Blitzkreig Harmonic]

"Legit" is all relative to one's personal views. Like an above poster said, "It's a means to an end". It doesn't matter HOW someone got perfect pokemon, but merely THAT they have them. RNG abuse is by no means rocket science, but it seems wrong to take advantage of the fact that around 70% of the battlers here don't feel like taking the time to understand the intricacies of the RNG and instead go out and get an AR (just a different "means to an end")

Edit: @ Blasphemy, how can you put a price on someone else's time? Maybe they have a job, family, school, etc., so that they cannot afford to spend the time on RNG, but would still like to be competitive in Pokemon?

Action Replay is considered illegitimate because you're forcing the game to do something that it normally can't, by rewriting the memory or changing the data. When I'm saying "do something it can't," I'm talking about having a Bulbasaur one moment and having an Arceus where it was the next. It's similar to Cynthia just randomly having 6 Mewtwos on her team. It's impossible. If you want to accomplish that goal, you should earn it. That's what people who play without AR say. I understand that some people don't have the time for that and choose to use AR, but it's still cheating and unfair to people who decided just to play with the game, as GameFreak made it.

 

[Blitzkreig Harmonic]

The random number generator is just a means in which the game uses to spit out sets of IVs. It's functional and helps with the variability in individual pokemon that IVs are supposed to represent. By the inherent nature of random number generators, there's no way to make this process truly random but this is the next best thing. The intent is there, sure, but at the end of the day the results will inevitably be the same whether you breed blindly or if you use the RNG to your advantage. Both methods are still using the same algorithm inside the game to make the pokemon after all. I don't see how it's breaking the conditions of how the game should be played when both methods follow the same rules that govern it. One is just more aware of those rules and how they work. It would be an act of futility to ignore these constraints and stumble forward blindly hoping to get "lucky." I use the term lucky loosely here since your luck is already predetermined by this algorithm!

That's my understanding of it, anyway.

That's a pretty kickass argument, actually.

 

[R S E FR LG]

Yeah, the RNG thing was built into the game. If Game Freak didn't want us to abuse it, then they should have kept it like it was pre-Emerald. I personally don't use it because A) [whinyvoice]IT'S TOO HARD MOM!!![/whinyvoice] and B) I feel better using breeding anyways. This is the same thing as the Emerald cloning glitch (and I guess the DP one too), it was a glitch, not a cheat, so it is legal to be used.

Edit: @ Blasphemy, how can you put a price on someone else's time? Maybe they have a job, family, school, etc., so that they cannot afford to spend the time on RNG, but would still like to be competitive in Pokemon?

That's what Shoddy Battle is for.

 

[Xia]

I'm agreeing that RNG abuse isn't cheating. It's a pain in the ass to learn, even harder to discover, and doesn't create any impossible Pokemon combinations.

If it's created in-game and can be done without a cheating device, it's legal.

 

[Lee]

Hi BH, could you perhaps share with us some more of the worthwhile anti-RNG arguments you encountered on GameFAQs? If the only basis for their argument is this paragraph in your OP then I can't believe it managed to reach 100+ posts. I can't see this one getting anywhere near that number unless somebody comes along with a convincing argument for why RNG abuse is cheating because at the moment this is more of a mass agreement than a discussion.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Hi BH, could you perhaps share with us some more of the worthwhile anti-RNG arguments you encountered on GameFAQs? If the only basis for their argument is this paragraph in your OP then I can't believe it managed to reach 100+ posts. I can't see this one getting anywhere near that number unless somebody comes along with a convincing argument for why RNG abuse is cheating because at the moment this is more of a mass agreement than a discussion.

Yeah, what Lee said. Smogon is a competitive pokemon site, anything that is within the game is going to be exploited and it isn't cheating since we are using what is in the game already. You aren't going to find any serious user here who thinks that following the exact code of the game so much that you can predict exactly what it will do next is "cheating"...I'm curious to see why anybody actually would consider it that.