CAP 9 CAP 9 - Concept Submissions

[Walvren]

Well the thing about countering a single move is the method in which to do it. Of course, we aren't about to make a move that goes "Prevents the foe from using Trick". We could instead create a move/ability that counters a group of moves. For example, an ability that grants immunity to non-damaging Psychic moves.

Trick may not be used in every match but equally controlling moves are used as well. Any OU team generally has any of the following: Trick, Taunt, Encore, Torment etc

 

[Illithian]

Well the thing about countering a single move is the method in which to do it. Of course, we aren't about to make a move that goes "Prevents the foe from using Trick". We could instead create a move/ability that counters a group of moves. For example, an ability that grants immunity to non-damaging Psychic moves.

Trick may not be used in every match but equally controlling moves are used as well. Any OU team generally has any of the following: Trick, Taunt, Encore, Torment etc

Actually, interesting as that idea sounds, that would be totally broken against stall, not to mention most types of teams. Anyway, I agree with Plus here.

 

[petrie911]

Name: Turning the Tables

Description: A Pokemon which specializes in turning other Pokemon's strengths against them.

Justification: A Pokemon who takes something from its opponent and uses it for itself is something we don't have much of in OU. However, this niche deserves more exploration. Porygon2 shows that ability-stealing can make an otherwise NU Pokemon semi-viable in OU play. But there is much more to explore within this niche, and CaP seems the perfect place to do it.

Questions to be Answered:
-Can a Pokemon whose strengths depend on its opponent be a truly viable Pokemon?
-How much specialization is required to do this? What range of strengths can a single Pokemon take advantage of?
-Because this Pokemon would benefit more from stronger opponents, would it have a balancing effect on the metagame?

Explanation: This concept came to me while considering the strange case of Porygon2. It's a Pokemon that does noticeably better in OU than UU, and not just because it needs the support of an OU/BL Pokemon to work (eg, Walrein). I noticed this was largely because Porygon2 just so happened to be able to counter many top tier OU threats by copying their abilities, turning a valuable asset into a liability. And so, I thought, what else can we do with this?

There are many things that take advantage of a Pokemon's strengths that don't see much use in OU. Stat-up and recovery moves are considered great assets, but moves like Guard Swap, Power Swap, and especially Snatch let you use them for yourself. Snatch is especially nice, stealing support moves like Aromatherapy, Substitute, and screens. Pokemon who are great at dealing damage find themselves KO'd by Metal Burst. Obviously, Porygon2 shows us the power of Trace, but there are other things. Walls that like to specialize in one defense don't like Download, and Guts/Quick Feet/Marvel Scale are a great way to use an opponent's status spreading to help you.

Now, that above list is certainly not exhaustive, which should show that there are a lot of places to go with this idea. Overall, I think this could give us a very unique Pokemon that would fill a currently underutilized niche in OU.

 

[Gooey Kablooie]

Name: Living Entry Hazard

General Description:
A Pokemon that is able to use the opponent switching as a positive tool of its own; without much need for prediction.

Justification:
Switching is an incredibly integral part of the game. Whether you're switching in a physical or special wall to absorb some damage, you're switching in a check or counter to your opponents latest move, or you're making some early-game scouting; switching is at the core of this game. Look how entry hazards have affected it so deeply. A pokemon with a built in entry hazard ability(dealing damage when they switch in, or healing yourself when they switch), and/or moves that give the opponent a real headache when they want to switch can really limit the opponent in to making tough decisions.

Questions to be Answered:
How can this Pokemon remain able to be checked, but still gain an advantage on the opponent when they switch in said check?

Dealing damage (think even with a different type than rock and normal), and healing oneself are not the only possibilities. Status and other effects can really make the opponent think twice about switching in, but what is the true switchers headache?

How will a living entry hazard affect competitive play, when there are no longer such easy answers like Rapid Spin?

Would moves or abilities be the best form of "switching hate"? Or a combination of them, with an item? (imagine holding Toxic Orb and having a "synchronize" ability that activates on the switch.)

Explanation:
I have almost always agreed with the notion that Stealth Rock is the best move in Pokemon. But, what would you do if a Pokemon literally had Stealth Rock attached right on to it? Putting the opponent in to difficult corners is always one of the most exciting parts of the game. There are always so many ways to answer a problem in Pokemon, but the answer the opponent chooses is what truly makes the game exciting; especially when it's a very unorthodox answer. When you lose to someone and you're left thinking "Wow! I would have never thought to do that!" It's almost a better feeling than winning; sometimes it actually is. So, if a Pokemon could do such a thing by simply being there it could make some very interesting Pokemon playing, and a great learning experience for everyone.


P.S. My personal favourite would be to have an ability that heals you when they switch, or fires off a wish like effect when they switch in; not necessarily healing that pokemon, but another instead.

 

[ReysonTheNoble]

Name: Welcome to Med School

General Description: A pokemon who reliably and devotedly uses the moves Heal Bell or Aromatherapy the cure the team of Status conditions.

Justification: Clerics are an extremely underutilized part of the metagame. Despite the fact that there are a few decently bulky Clerics (Blissey, Celebi, and recently, Vaporeon), but they are rarely ever used as such.

Questions to be Answered:
-Are clerics really viable in today's metagame?
-How important are clerics to the metagame?
-How important is status to the metagame?
-Will status moves still be widely used despite having a good way to nullify them?
-What play style will dominate if status isn't such a threat anymore (Stall, Balanced, Offense)?

Explanation: I find myself wondering how people can be suggesting to create concepts to deal with status moves when there is already a perfectly good way to deal with them. Clerics used to be used a lot more, but now they are a dying breed. Now, if a pokemon gets Burned or Paralyzed, it is left for dead, and a rouge freeze means a pokemon is completely useless.

As I mentioned before, there are some viable clerics, but they are better off doing something else. Blissey has a plethora of options, and generally sticks to Heal move/Attack/Seismic Toss/Support move, in which support move can be filled by about ten different moves. Celebi has pretty poor typing, being weak to common types, namely a Pursuit weakness. If it's a cleric Celebi, chances are that it won't be running HP Fire, which means it is easy prey for Scizor. Vaporeon could make use of its new Heal Bell, but it likes Surf/Ice Beam/HP Electric/Wish/Protect/Toxic better.

Ideally, this pokemon will be bulky and have decent typing, while not being a more balanced Blissey. It should be able to throw out some damage, but not OHKO damage. It might have support options like Screens and Wish, but ideally it's focus should be Aroma/Heal Bell.

 

[Walvren]

Actually, interesting as that idea sounds, that would be totally broken against stall, not to mention most types of teams. Anyway, I agree with Plus here.

How so? Lets take my own example: A pokemon with an immunity to nondamaging Psychic moves. This gives it an immunity to Trick, Psycho- Shift, Kinesis and other... moves. I doubt that would kill a team.

I don't exactly see your point because stall doesn't employ Trick or Taunt to stay alive (but Shuckle uses Encore). And you said most teams would be ruined with the absence of these moves. Although I did say most OU teams employ at least one of those moves, no team would become powerless unless poorly built.

 

[Ordinando]

"Immunity to nondamaging Psychic moves" is a pretty roundabout way to stop Trick when Sticky Hold and Klutz already makes one immune to it. Legacy Raider even listed the three with Sticky Hold (Gastrodon, Muk, Swalot). Klutz is arguably a better way to be immune as it allows you to hold on to dangerous items longer as well as ignoring tricked items but sacrifices use of ALL items.

 

[Walvren]

"Immunity to nondamaging Psychic moves" is a pretty roundabout way to stop Trick when Sticky Hold and Klutz already makes one immune to it. Legacy Raider even listed the three with Sticky Hold (Gastrodon, Muk, Swalot). Klutz is arguably a better way to be immune as it allows you to hold on to dangerous items longer as well as ignoring tricked items but sacrifices use of ALL items.

That's far from my original point (though I must say it does vindicate my argument).

 

[Adonzo]

billymills' two-side attack
An example of how this could be done is something similar to Medicham - poor attack and subpar defenses, but access to Pure Power and a special attack equivalent, allowing him to hit ferociously hard from both sides of the spectrum, but not at the same time.

x-act's critical hit abuser / run's professional gambler
something of a combination of these two concepts, but as an example say a mon has an ability which guarantees critical hits, but gimps his accuracy. he would gain accuracy back every turn a la Speed Boost. the result would be running a very high, potentially crippling, miss chance for a few turns, but with a powerful payoff.

final edit, serious this time: had a concept here about a mon with a revive ability. didnt go over to well, and now i dont like it myself =\

 

[billymills]

billymills' two-side attack
An example of how this could be done is something similar to Medicham - poor attack and subpar defenses, but access to Pure Power and a special attack equivalent, allowing him to hit ferociously hard from both sides of the spectrum, but not at the same time.

That's definitely an option, but I don't want to reduce my options to just offense. If there's some way for my concept to be either a physical wall or a special attacker, but not both, that would be just as good.

 

[Walvren]

I understand why it got eaten up...

When you first posted this, I argued about how ridiculous it is. Let me say it again. It totally changes the way pokemon battles are done. Whole teams need to change to this resurrection thing. The whole concept of battles would need to change. I tell you again and again, you do NOT want to resurrect a pokemon!

 

[Fuzznip]

Justification:[/B] Like other concept submissions, this mon could very potentially be an "ultimate cleric". What would set him apart from others would be his ability to resurrect party members in combat, something that can not currently be done in competitive play.

This can't be done without breaking/changing game mechanics, because it's impossible to "resurrect" a Pokemon. So, I'm pretty sure this concept isn't such a good idea.

This is also an extremely broken concept. Having the ability to bring back one of your Pokemon to life is absolutely ridiculous. You can easily win the game by this. For example, if you have one Pokemon left (which would be this concept) and your opponent has three Pokemon left, you can easily sacrifice yourself, revive a Pokemon that can eliminate the opponent's team, and easily win the match.

No way will this get implemented.

 

[petrie911]

Adonzo--As mentioned, your concept requires changing game mechanics, and thus probably isn't a good idea (CAP perfers *not* to make new moves/abilities). However, the existing moves Lunar Dance and Healing Wish can give another Pokemon a second chance. I've seen a few teams that use a Lunar Dance Cresselia to bring back a weakened SDLuke or DDtar. Perhaps you could adjust your concept to center around those moves. Although, now that I think about it, that does sound kind of similar to "Leave a Legacy".

 

[rippersteveM5]

Name: Stealth Rock Counter

General Description: A Pokemon who is able to beat many common stealth rock users.

Justification: Stealth Rock is without a doubt one of the most centralizing moves in the current metagame, to the point where many teams employ a lead pokemon for the sole purpose of setting the rocks up. Countering common users of Stealth Rock will hopefully allow some pokemon directly hindered by it (Charizard and Articuno are two clear examples) to show their worth. I believe this will have a positive effect on the metagame; it will allow us to learn what will happen if Stealth Rocks usage is curbed.

Questions to be Answered:
Will this pokemon curb the use of Stealth Rock, or will it simply force people to look for alternative pokemon to fulfill the role?

Will pokemon previously hindered by Stealth Rock (eg. Charizard, Articuno) see more usage as a result of this?

What method would this pokemon use to counter said Stealth Rockers?

How would this pokemon manage to fulfill its role, yet still remain usable in other aspects?

Explanation:
Ugh...I'm honestly sick of Stealth Rock. What would the metagame be like today without its influence? Pokemon like previously mentioned Charizard and Articuno, and also pokemon like Moltres suffer directly from the moves popularity, leaving us unable to see what they are truly capable of. Of course, if common Stealth Rockers see a decline, people will seek alternative Stealth Rockers, which might see the rise of some less used pokemon. One of the challenges is to figure out how this pokemon will counter these Stealth Rockers. Could it utilize Rapid Spin to rid of the rocks, or use Taunt, or priority moves to hinder the use? These reasons I think make for an interesting and game-breaking concept.



Your thoughts?

 

[Illithian]

Adonzo, Revive is not programmed into Shoddy Battle for good reason.

There is no revival game mechanic for battling, and since CAP likes to follow general game mechanics, you can be sure it isn't happening. Also, even if its a sacrifice-myself-revive-ally type thing, you could just keep that pokemon until the end, then revive an appropriate counter for the opponent's remaining pokemon.

@ripper: When you say a pokemon that can beat common stealth rock users, most stealth rock users are leads. The ones that wont explode in your face (swampert, jirachi) all have solid counters. The rest will, well, explode in your face. Midgame stealth rock users aren't common. Still, something to counter stall setups sounds interesting.

 

[Walvren]

Name: Stealth Rock Counter

General Description: A Pokemon who is able to beat many common stealth rock users.

Justification: Stealth Rock is without a doubt one of the most centralizing moves in the current metagame, to the point where many teams employ a lead pokemon for the sole purpose of setting the rocks up. Countering common users of Stealth Rock will hopefully allow some pokemon directly hindered by it (Charizard and Articuno are two clear examples) to show their worth. I believe this will have a positive effect on the metagame; it will allow us to learn what will happen if Stealth Rocks usage is curbed.

Questions to be Answered:
Will this pokemon curb the use of Stealth Rock, or will it simply force people to look for alternative pokemon to fulfill the role?

Will pokemon previously hindered by Stealth Rock (eg. Charizard, Articuno) see more usage as a result of this?

What method would this pokemon use to counter said Stealth Rockers?

How would this pokemon manage to fulfill its role, yet still remain usable in other aspects?

Explanation:
Ugh...I'm honestly sick of Stealth Rock. What would the metagame be like today without its influence? Pokemon like previously mentioned Charizard and Articuno, and also pokemon like Moltres suffer directly from the moves popularity, leaving us unable to see what they are truly capable of. Of course, if common Stealth Rockers see a decline, people will seek alternative Stealth Rockers, which might see the rise of some less used pokemon. One of the challenges is to figure out how this pokemon will counter these Stealth Rockers. Could it utilize Rapid Spin to rid of the rocks, or use Taunt, or priority moves to hinder the use? These reasons I think make for an interesting and game-breaking concept.



Your thoughts?

SR counters? Lemme see.... Spinners duh!

 

[Admiral_Stalfos19]

Hope no-one ended up stealing this, but here I go...

Gentle Giant

General Description: A Pokemon that may have Uber-quality stats, but is actually completely viable in OU combat due to one or more nerfs

Justification: This concept allows us to understand how nerfs such as negative abilities, a horrendous defensive typing and a limited movepool can balance out a Pokemon that would hands-down be thrown into Uber without them. If this Pokemon has few or "weak" enough nerfs, it can become a serious powerhouse, whether it ends up being a wall-breaker or a tank. However, every single Pokemon that Game Freak ever created either never needed to be nerfed, was intentionally made Uber or was nerfed too much to be useful in OU combat, or even UU combat in some cases

Questions to be Answered:

- Can we put negative abilities such as Truant or Stall to good use?

- How powerful does a Pokemon have to be in order to require nerfing?

- What and how many nerfs can we give this guy without making it broken?

- Two of Game Freak's 'Gentle Giants' have already never cut it when it came to competitive battling, and both of them are now catagorized as NU. So how will this one fare in terms of competitive battling?

Explanation:

'Gentle Giants' need some love. Seriously. Sure, they have their disadvantages, which maybe more serious than most others, but that shouldn't stop them from being genuine powerhouses, should it? I think not, which is why I suggest giving our underrated friends a chance to shine.

As you can see, 'Gentle Giants' are all about the nerfs that they have. Some of them even use their nerfs to their advantage, like Slaking. Since he only attacks once every two turns thanks to Truant, he can unleash a full powered Giga Impact without noticing a real difference... apart from the inability to switch. But that's not all... by using Skill Swap, the Giants can transfer their negative ability (if they have one) to other Pokemon, thus crippling them and becoming nearly unstoppable. They can also screw up Tracers with their negative abilities.

What if they have a bad defensive typing such as Rock/Ground? Simple, fire off STAB Stone Edges and EQs at your enemies. Even if a 'Gentle Giant' does have a bad defensive typing, it can always attempt to bombard its enemies with it's STAB moves. But if they're crappy STABs such as Poison/Steel? As long as one doesn't eat Earthquakes or Fire Blasts or the like, and it actually has decent defences, it can easily rely on its other moves to take down certain Pokemon

Anything can be a nerf, from abilities which I explained above, to typing which I also explained above, to the movepool which I briefly mentioned above. Hell, we can even pull a Rampardos and give our 'Gentle Giant' super high attack power while making it less bulky and slower than the average Pokemon... even that will work as a nerf. I assure you we'll have a lot of fun creating our very own 'Gentle Giant', and I hope you actually agree with me here...

 

[monkymeet]

Don't atleast half the current OU metagame get these type of moves and could make use of them yet still choose not to. Doesn't this kinda already prove they are not really viable

Yes, half of OU does have the ability to run these low power moves, but the problem still lies that real competitive moves tend to have double, if not more base power. Factoring STAB, that difference can be astronomical.

That does not mean that the moves themselves are completely useless, nor are the secondary effects not viable. For the longest time, Absols were running Rock Smash (before it got Superpower), which I think allowed it to deal significant damage to Tyranitars (I think if there was a defense drop it could guarantee a 2HKO on the bulkiest of them, and a reasonable chance without the drop). It had some other remarkable calculations, but has been since lost into the archives. This alone shows that low power moves aren't necessarily useless, just that they can be so overshadowed by power alone, and people often ignore their interesting and powerful secondary effects. You could even pull out Kitsunoh's signature move as an example. A 50% defense drop is not something to laugh at.

 

[Adonzo]

a low power move concept would only work if the creation had no other options, because as latinoheat said, they are just outclassed.

in my opinion, we already have a low base power CAP, Technician Stratagem

@Illithian

care to elaborate? that still doesn't say much to people who weren't on IRC taking part of the discussion, ie. me

 

[Illithian]

Adonzo, in the CAP IRC, we had a discussion about how it could be competitively viable and broken, and we found two things:

Either:
A. Its a cleric
or
B. Its used to revive a pokemon at the end to sweep an opponents team

If A, we decided we don't need another cleric, and if B, its a waste of a slot.

care to elaborate? that still doesn't say much to people who weren't on IRC taking part of the discussion, ie. me

That was a simplified version.

Essentially, originally I thought a sacrifice-myself-revive-an-ally move wasn't broke, but Fuzznip convinced me otherwise with this:

[23:49] <@Fuzznip> example:
[23:49] <@Fuzznip> you have one pokemon left
[23:49] <@Fuzznip> which is the concept
[23:49] <@Fuzznip> and you are facing the opponent
[23:49] <@Fuzznip> with say 4 pokemon left
[23:49] <@Fuzznip> you sacrifice yourself
[23:49] <@Fuzznip> and heal up something that can destroy all 4
[23:50] <@Fuzznip> sounds extremely broken
[23:50] <@Fuzznip> by a mile

And:

[23:54] <@Fuzznip> just keep it as your last Pokemon
[23:54] <@Fuzznip> so you are guaranteed to heal up a Pokemon that can finish your opponent off
[23:54] <@Fuzznip> that's just stupid and ridiculous

endl;

 

[Illithian]

One way to make it less broken would be, in theory, to make it so it can't be used if its the last pokemon.

More umbreon_dan win stuff against your clause:

[01:01] <%umbreon_dan> well imagine
[01:01] <%umbreon_dan> you use an SD luke and sweep till it dies
[01:01] <%umbreon_dan> then you revive it and fucking sweep again
[01:02] <%umbreon_dan> if you want a metagame like that just turn the species clause off

 

[billymills]

Essentially, originally I thought a sacrifice-myself-revive-an-ally move wasn't broke, but Fuzznip convinced me otherwise with this:

[23:49] <@Fuzznip> example:
[23:49] <@Fuzznip> you have one pokemon left
[23:49] <@Fuzznip> which is the concept
[23:49] <@Fuzznip> and you are facing the opponent
[23:49] <@Fuzznip> with say 4 pokemon left
[23:49] <@Fuzznip> you sacrifice yourself
[23:49] <@Fuzznip> and heal up something that can destroy all 4
[23:50] <@Fuzznip> sounds extremely broken
[23:50] <@Fuzznip> by a mile

[23:54] <@Fuzznip> just keep it as your last Pokemon
[23:54] <@Fuzznip> so you are guaranteed to heal up a Pokemon that can finish your opponent off
[23:54] <@Fuzznip> that's just stupid and ridiculous

This is a terrible reason to prove that it's not a viable concept. If you have 1 pokemon that can defeat the remaining four pokemon, why did you let it die in the first place. Without poll jumping, we have no idea about the specifics of this move/ability/whatever. There is absolutely no way to determine if it is broken or not.

My reasons that it is a terrible idea:
1. It creates a COMPLETELY new element to battle. One that has never existed in any similar form at all. If we are attempting to learn about the metagame, we don't change it these extremely.

2. It would be hell to implement. Being unaware of the exact specifics of shoddy's engine (or sb2, which this will likely be implemented on) I assume this would be a large patch, which really isn't necessary. I believe there were some complaints about creating brand-new abilities during Fidgit's creation.

3. Without precedent, we have no idea where to even start with this move. It could go anywhere from reviving with 1 hp, to completely healing and restoring PP. We have simply no idea what is the best idea, causing multiple testing trials, and likely compromising with either a rather unsatisfying pokemon, or merely giving up.

I am posting here fully aware that the past ~30 posts will get deleted by the time that I wake up, but I'm hoping I can add better reasons why this concept makes no sense.

 

[Nik S D]

Personally, I agree that the revival thing is a little broken. Like people have said before, you could just do:

CAP 9 concept uses revive!
Extreemspeed Lucario/Scizor/DD Salamence that just died came back to life!
Opponent: DAMN IT!!!!!

 

[Adonzo]

I believe there were some complaints about creating brand-new abilities during Fidgit's creation.

dropped support for my concept, but i imagine the same complaints were present during Syclant, Stratagem and Kitsunoh's due to their unique abilities/moves. unless the complaints were made in regard to programming them in? at any rate, unless something's changed i didnt think new abilities were against the rules, just easier and more faithful to the game and thus avoided.

 

[billymills]

totally unrelated to my concept, but i imagine the same complaints were present during Syclant, Stratagem and Kitsunoh's due to their unique abilities/moves. unless the complaints were made in regard to programming them in? at any rate, unless something's changed i didnt think new abilities were against the rules, just easier and more faithful to the game and thus avoided.

That's exactly what I was referring to.