NP: UU - Bye Bye Bye

[symphonyx64]

Good work voters.

No more sweeping or getting swept by LO Raikou!

I can actually enjoy UU again, hopefully.

 

[ToF]

Now lets hope that stall doesn't completely dominate.

Don't take this offensively Erazor, but I'm really sick of comments like this. Stall doesn't dominate because it's the best playstyle or whatever. I think it's been shown last period that offensive teams are just as viable, and remember Dugtrio and Moltres are still available against stall teams. I never understood why everyone said Raikou was harder for stall to handle because it could never 2HKO Chansey even with some entry hazard layers out, whereas Moltres could.

On another note, using stall isn't some walk in the park either. It's not as easy covering everything possible, especially with the amount of threats in UU compared to say OU. Stall doesn't dominate, good players dominate. Synre was telling me on IRC that carbon copies of AM's stall team showed up on the ladder in recent days; this doesn't mean that everyone can use it as well as AM. Domination is not a term you should use for team types, but rather for successful players.

Except stall never used froslass, that was only offense. Stall used cloyster or omaster. If anything, stall is better now, less offensive teams will run spikes, and raikou is gone, which made decent setup on chansey and gave stall trouble.

This is completely wrong. Go see my battle of the week video for the use of Froslass on stall. Granted I still think Froslass is horrible mid-game compared to say Omastar, but Froslass works just as well as a lead on stall teams. Raikou never gave stall trouble unless it was removed by Dugtrio, but like I said earlier, the same case could be made for Moltres who is arguably harder for stall to take down because of higher longevity. One critical hit on Chansey means it's dead with some entry hazard support, no Dugtrio support required.

 

[Bluewind]

Happy that Whorelass is gone. Not that happy Raikou is gone though but yeah, dawg was BL. Now hopefully the metagame won't make itself stall weak like it did spamming the same teams around the tier.

 

[6A9 Ace Matador]

dugtrio -_-

 

[Banedon]

Took the time to watch the BOTW again, it strikes me that both players managed to pull off spins with Foresight, both times against Froslass as a spinblocker, in spite of Froslass's ability to Taunt Foresight ... it also strikes me how quickly people play in the BOTW, I could never think that fast. Like, why did both players switch Froslass in to block Rapid Spin, only to end up switching into Foresight? Don't they have to think, "what if this Hitmontop knows Foresight"?

I think you'd have to basically be functionally retarded not to make the lower reqs - even the account I was using for testing for QC ended up at like 1710 rating or something, 1600 is almost impossible to miss. It might not be such a bad thing since it basically functions as a special exception vote in OU(people who can make enough sense in their paras get to vote in spite of not having particularly impressing ratings/sexp/whatever), but it's definitely not anything resembling an accomplishment to make them.

Exactly. I remembered I once said everyone should be allowed to vote if they can come up with coherent reasons why (i.e. write a good paragraph) and thinking about it I still agree with what I wrote. Nonetheless with a lower requirement in place then clearly there's some selection process already, and I think the bar's set too low; either remove it entirely or raise it higher. But whatever ... I doubt I'll vote this round even if I make the requirements. Don't feel I'm qualified to.

PS: I think you might make PK Gaming, M_Blade and Lonewolfnumbers kill some pandas with that @_@

 

[Bluewind]

Of course they know Hitmontop has Foresight, but it's not rare to go with moves like Attack as Hitmontop Foresights then go to Ghost as it spins, which means it can't take 2 consecutive hits to spin and thus is forced out. It ended up though they played in a conservative way and one took advantage of the other because of that; as losing all your hazards against opposing stall is almost signing your death sentence.

 

[Banedon]

True that but switching Froslass into Foresight loses all your entry hazards too. If Hitmontop is already in, it's 50/50 either way - if it spins and you switch in your ghost, you win; if it spins and you don't switch in your ghost, you lose; if it Foresights and you switch in your ghost, you lose; if it Foresights and you don't switch in your ghost, you win. For a 50/50 choice I would've expected more thought, yet both players essentially played instantaneously ...

 

[Bluewind]

Because there isn't much thought to be put in this situation. They know one thing: My opponeny will either Foresight or Rapid Spin; which one he'll do it doesn't matter if I spend 3 or 30 seconds thinking, those are still his only 2 options and I'm still on a 50/50 case.

 

[IronBullet]

Of course they know Hitmontop has Foresight, but it's not rare to go with moves like Attack as Hitmontop Foresights then go to Ghost as it spins, which means it can't take 2 consecutive hits to spin and thus is forced out. It ended up though they played in a conservative way and one took advantage of the other because of that; as losing all your hazards against opposing stall is almost signing your death sentence.

Almost every single spinner I've faced Foresight first when Spikes are out, which is probably because Froslass was my Spiker. It's a risky way to deal with Foresight users, but it kind of works, especially when they know that you pack a Froslass. It feels great when you pull it off :)

 

[capefeather]

Well, I guess that's that. I kind of wonder why only my Dugtrio paragraphs got accepted, though I have my good guesses. I guess I won't be copy-pasting past paragraphs anymore. Also BL paragraphs are hard for some reason.

 

[Acritter]

Anyone know when Shoddy's getting updated to actually ban those two?

 

[ToF]

True that but switching Froslass into Foresight loses all your entry hazards too. If Hitmontop is already in, it's 50/50 either way - if it spins and you switch in your ghost, you win; if it spins and you don't switch in your ghost, you lose; if it Foresights and you switch in your ghost, you lose; if it Foresights and you don't switch in your ghost, you win. For a 50/50 choice I would've expected more thought, yet both players essentially played instantaneously ...

I didn't make my earlier point to start some rant about the battling strategies during the BOTW, but just so I can end this talk, I'll give you brief insight.

Basically, all I need to say is that I could set up all my entry hazards again even if he spun them, at the cost of him losing his spinner. It has nothing to do with this 50/50 bullshit you're talking about. Think long term, do you think he had any shot to win against me once his spinner was gone? Also, note that I knew Froslass wouldn't die in the exchange because he was going to spin at least one of the two turns both mons were against each other. He wasn't going to CC twice, killing Froslass and leaving 2 layers of Spikes + SR on the field. Even though he had SR on the field and Froslass was at around 19%, if he forced me out I would have just spun everything of his away with Blastoise, and brought in Froslass on Chansey eventually.

PS: Why would I need to take forever to think of a move. If I know the move I'm making is logical and will help me win in the end, who gives a shit if I take 3 seconds or 3 minutes?

 

[GMLW]

I'm sad that Raikou is gone, but what's done is done.

I'm not sure what to do now. Stall has always been a good strategy since Gallade was banned, but I hate stall. I like bulky offense, all of the bulky attackers are either really slow or have poor synergy with each other.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Bulky Offense is now one of the most viable playstyles in the tier, about on par with stall. You really shouldn't have a problem winning with it, as long as you're competent.

 

[capefeather]

Honestly, bulky offense matches can get just as "boring" (note the quotes) as stall matches are simply because of the similar switching and countering mechanics and emphasis on long-term thinking sometimes. At least with stall you're constantly trying to set stuff up and/or trying to remove the other guy's stuff.

 

[GMLW]

"Set stuff up" is the point of offense too, except instead of entry hazards, you're setting up boosts with bulky Pokemon. Besides, it's better than hyper offense which gets beaten if you're opponent can connect six attacks on your team.

And when are the drops? I'm becoming impatient!

 

[Stellar]

X-Act is taking a break from Smogon and isn't available to calculate the tiers. I think RBG is taking up the mantle. You can expect the OU drop downs to be posted "soonish".

 

[capefeather]

Bulky offense doesn't set up anything permanent. When Drapion uses Swords Dance, chances are a Drapion counter will come in to stop the sweep before it even started. Maybe I'm actually thinking about balanced teams, I don't know. Sub-categories are mostly stupid anyway.

I'm assuming that Doug is prioritizing the "new OU list" and "new UU list" data over the BL data, which would mean that all the necessary changes are done in one fell swoop. EDIT: ninja'd by stellar

P.S.: Are the Wing Badge requirements the same as when Aeolus posted that one sticky about it? (I feel a bit badly about asking about this in the wake of having a 25% success rate on my UU voting attempts last time, but it might still be worth posting.)

 

[GMLW]

All right. I'm just an impatient person.

Okay, I guess I lied. Bulky offense can also use hard-hitters with good defenses, but they don't necesarily have to set up, like Rhyperior or Milotic.

 

[Ice-eyes]

I think plenty of playstyles took a hit with the loss of Froslass and stall is definitely one of them - it's now much harder for Stall to incorporate all the hazards it needs, plus two Ghosts, plus phazers, plus a Spinner, plus good synergy, plus checks to all top threats. Things can easily slip through.

Spinning is definitely now easier. No Froslass means fewer balanced SpikeStacking teams and more teams that just have SR and no Spinner. That makes life a lot easier for things like Moltres - while it may not appreciate the loss of Spikes to support it itself, it definitely enjoys the opponent not being able to keep SR around as effectively.

Without Froslass, Uxie is a much better lead - its main problem previously was that it effectively guaranteed Froslass 2-3 layers of Spikes without it taking too much damage. If that happens, it's basically GG. Now, Uxie beats basically every lead or can at least SR and U-Turn with few consequences.

 

[MegaKick]

Surprised at so few ambipom leads, although I guess froslass never stopped them since they could taunt first then pursuit for the 1-2HKO. Only way to stop spikes set up. Of course then, ambi has to run fake out - taunt - pursuit - uturn/return

 

[IronBullet]

I guess now that Froslass is gone all those anti-leads that came out to keep Froslass in check early game like Hari and Tomb will slowly start to go out of style.

 

[Bluewind]

Hmm Hari and Tomb and great assets to have throughtout the game, not only on the start of the match. Tomb for example makes a fine check for Ghosts and Alakazam. I think they'll naturally drop, but not so much that they absolutely dissapear.

 

[IronBullet]

Great assets throughout the game yes, but as leads in this meta? I mean it's not like Spiritomb can stop Omastar from setting up 3 layers of Spikes, who will probably be the most used Spiker. But I guess they won't die out completely.

 

[GMLW]

While Hariyama and Spiritomb are still good leads, leads like Kabutops and Armaldo will go out of style.