This isn't the argument I'm making, and hasn't been for a while now. Where I initially thought I could go the full 9 yards with eliminating zam's usefulness, I realize I had to settle for 8. Chansey completely outclasses zam from a defensive stance, and Starmie outclasses zam from an offensive point of view. That's my point. An argument can be made for players that feel they need two special walls, but in this case, zam shouldn't be considered without already having chansey. And there's not exactly anything close to replacing a kinesis zam. And because most of the arguments I've gotten defending zam is from a defensive stance, there isn't too much about starmie. Their only similarities are that they both "force in" chansey with some regularity (this is where we stand at the end of the thread), however, starmie is much better at it. Starmie forces in only Chansey (or a defensive zam, aka one that's willing to be paralyzed), to which physical attackers manhandle just fine. Alakazam also lures in Exeggutor, Chansey, Slowbro, Zam, etc, stuff that physical attackers aren't so keen on seeing. And in terms of damage:Chansey + Zam > Chansey + Starmie.
Saying you should assume your opponent can predict if you can predict is just a mirror of my response to "starmie baits chansey out". However, there is a difference here because not all predictions or "guesses", however you want to call them, are equal. If chansey is in against starmie, what is your risk reward for starmie predicting an ice beam and staying in to do 12% damage? Very low. Maybe you do make a gamebreaking move if you are crazy enough to twave/surf and catch lax/golem coming in, but it's far from guaranteed and you're also risking having your starmie crippled. Maybe one game you try that and it works, but that's not a good long term strategy. Meanwhile Alakazam is the one in the driver's seat against chansey. He's actively creating low-risk opportunities for himself instead of being completely walled out.Alakazam/Chansey are probably paralyzed at any stage of the battle (you argue that people try to "freeze" chansey, but that's rarely the case; that speed loss vs rhydons/golems and that 1/4 turn loss is far more reliable and useful imo, not to mention chansey won't see much playtime with it having to dodge freeze all the time). If you're assuming you can predict against an opponent's chansey switch, then you should be able to assume your opponent can predict on your zam/chansey switch and "set up a physical accordingly".
And no, you can't and shouldn't "bet the farm" in any equally skilled high-level match. At that point, prediction no longer exists. It becomes "guessing". Anything can happen. If you think prediction continues to exist, then you've never reached said level of play.
There's no doubt that Alakazam is not broken. You really focus on the fact that Alakazam is not a shoe-in to cripple entire teams (though you're exaggerating chansey's ability to take up to 4(!) special falls without needing to switch. But in comparison to Starmie, how is all the above not better than being completely useless in the early and mid-game, while only being an above-average sweeper at the end of the day? Starmie is walled by chansey and semi-walled by alakazam. You're asking your physicals to do a lot of maneuvering in order to even get starmie going. Plus, IF Alakazam fails to successfully catch somebody on a switch, he can always fall back and stall, which is STILL better than being walled out, like starmie is.You guys are really overrating Alakazam's ability to force Chansey to switch. I have no doubt, it can and will happen several times through a course of a match. But to truly capitalize on it (so that it's not merely an event, but an advantageous event), several things have to go your way:
1. Predict WHEN Chansey will switch, since she can switch anywhere from -1 down to -4 spc falls.
2. Predict "properly" what the switch is. You don't want to end up using Psychic on Egg/Slowbro/Starmie/Zam/Jynx. Likewise, you don't want to end up paralyzing something that's asleep/already paralyzed/Golem or Rhydon.
3. Dodge the FP.
Furthermore, at this stage, SHOULD you get unlucky (e.g. you get the first two levels of prediction correctly and try to psychic a predicted Snorlax switch, only to get FPd), then you're left with a losing proposition. A pretty horrible one. And should you only predict partially right (e.g. you get the first level of prediction correctly, guessing the Chansey switch, but end up using Psychic on Egg), then you're faced with another prediction that ends up being a draw situation at best. Do you guess a switch back to Chansey, and you can capitalize with a physical switch, or do you guess a neutral damaging move, in which case leaving zam in would be the right choice?
Blizzard should be hitting Egg on the switch. Just like S-toss. We're assuming both the Starmie user and the Alakazam user is able to do that. The difference here is: Alakazam has to predict correctly 3 times, whereas the Starmie user only has to predict correctly once.If the situation is right in the battle, trading a stun spore for a blizz could be worth it.
-4 implies staying in on -3, which I wouldn't be hesitant to do. A CH would do less at this point if I'm not mistaken? And I guess even at -4, there are mind games to be played, since the zam user is probably running dangerously low on Psychics at this point. The surer you are of a switch against someone skilled, the less likely it seems to happen. It's not exactly out of the norm.though you're exaggerating chansey's ability to take up to 4(!) special falls without needing to switch.
There's really only two parts to my Starmie argument. Alakazam has intangible benefits over it, I'm sure, and it's ends up being really subjective as to which is more important (hence many people losing interest in arguing).But in comparison to Starmie, how is all the above not better than being completely useless in the early and mid-game
I think you get it wrong. No one will switch Exeggy into Starmie. They'll switch Chansey. Exeggy can switch into Zam. That's the argument, and this is why Starmie is better at baiting Chansey.I don't know what game you're playing where Eggy is switching into a starmie blizzard. So this would be a situation where for whatever reason they opt not to use chansey or kazam to switch into starmie and also a situation where tbolt is expected so this is starmie vs starmie/lapras we're talking about where you are blizzarding hoping for eggy (no one is going to switch eggy into par, so if twave is expected forget it) when it very well could be chansey and if you're wrong you either just ate a bolt/par from starmie/lapras or now you have starmie in against chansey setting your own chansey up to switch in and be met by a physical attacker.
It's not the same as kazam stoss at all because eggy actually would feasibly switch into kazam to help chansey get her special back up.
How in the world is starmie better than zam at baiting chansey? Because starmie sucks and chansey auto-defeats it? Thats not a great point for starmie. Starmie also doesn't bait chansey better because even though chansey shuts down starmie, starmie's not overly threatening to just about anything besides rocks. Depending on the circumstances, Zam can stay in/switch in, snorlax could fight, tauros could fight, gengar could fight, etc. Kazam actually does bait chansey because Kazam will paralyze or kill anything else.
Yep, but again, that's not the whole argument. Everyone knows Alakazam is better at spreading PAR. So why are you using Starmie for that role? The argument is: Starmie is better than Zam offensively. That means, Starmie as a late-game (Chansey-died-game tbh) Special Sweeper (HP, Blizz, T-bolt, Recover). Starmie is better at that role. If you agree here, there's no necessity of a debate anymore.The ultimate problem with starmie is that she can't have 5 moves. She needs par and STAB to beat Tauros and have a chance against lax. She needs blizz for eggy. She needs bolt for starmie/lapras. She obviously needs recover. Besides the whole chansey walling everything aspect, there will be some hole in starmie's moveset that can be exploited once discovered.
Maybe. But Starmie hits hard on MORE things.holy shit it's Nitro (Oh hey, sucks your usual name got taken by some douche who's never posted and used all lowercase.)
He's already largely got it covered but I will blurb one little thing because I already typed it up. It's basically a 50/50 split down OU of which pokémon are hit harder by Starmie or Alakazam. However, Alakazam hits harder against the most relevant of targets, such as Tauros and Chansey, and a couple of Starmie's "wins" kinda overlap with one another. (i.e. Nobody uses Golem and Rhydon together, or Starmie and Lapras.) That's not to mention that Alakazam is also defensively superior against more pokémon than Starmie... So I guess 'Zam is just plain better? *shrug*
Haha sup E. Glad to see there at least a couple of familiar faces still around (Hipmonlee, as well). I actually just stumbled on smogon recently out of nowhere (can't believe its been going since 04 and I never knew about it). I have no desire to learn the new games but I've been playing some RBY for god knows what reason. It's still fun. :)holy shit it's Nitro (Oh hey, sucks your usual name got taken by some douche who's never posted and used all lowercase.)
Cool, time to explain some elementary statistics to some very egotistical minds. Lucky for us, we have nice values to work with. Starmie hits Tauros for between 163 ~ 192, with an average of 177.5, which is 50.3%. Round down to 50% (which is AGAINST starmie btw) for the sake of insanity. 50% is an awesome number. Now to solve using the simplest method (aka the longest) such that even the most elementary minds could understand.Tauros
No one KOs Chansey with zam unless the game's already over. 10 psychics for -3 fall? nothxChansey
I'm not that biased. Lapras goes to Zam, unless it uses Body Slam or something.(i.e. Nobody uses Golem and Rhydon together, or Starmie and Lapras.)
I didn't want to have to do it, because it's not really much discussion to be had from it, but...Maybe. But Starmie hits hard on MORE things.