DPP OU Kevin Garrett Stall

[Kevin Garrett]

While this is a good team and while I'm sure you've put a lot of thought into it, this team is literally Pokemon for Pokemon, move for move Earthworm's stall team with Scarf Tyranitar over Heatran. It seems a bit arrogant calling it "Kevin Garrett stall" when 5/6 Pokemon are carbon copies.

You seem terribly weak to Breloom. While you can certainly force it out with Roar you lack many ways to significantly harm it. Three of your Pokemon can't break its Subs at all while Tyranitar is wrecked unless he can come in with its Sub down, and even then Superpower will only do around 65% to 12 HP Breloom. Blissey clearly isn't going to combat it well and Breloom is always 3HKOed which can easily turn to a 2HKO with Stealth Rocks and ~10% of prior damage. Since most of your team can't break its Sub it doesn't need even Spore to cripple you.

I highly reccomend you run Specially Defensive Heatran in the last slot as it gives you an extra way of killing Breloom but also an extra Dragon resist. Something like mixed Dragonite will run your team to the ground as your current Steel resist has no Wish support and can be worn down. It can easily Roost off SR damage and hits from anything here except for Tyranitar who, as with Forretress, lacks Wish support. Heatran probably won't solve that, but it might help.

Good luck!

This is the last comment I will make on the issue of the team. I explicitly state I am not taking credit for the combination. Any person who plays DPP knows all stall looks similar. It's not just Earthworm who has used a team just like this. It's VIL, imperfectluck, stvn, Taylor, and so on. The one I credited is august since he got me going with this. Finally, I have provided many of the lessons I use in Battling 101 in this RMT to help people use this. This is how I stall in DP. Therefore, it is Kevin Garrett Stall. You don't have to like it, but you do have to respect the time and effort I put into this. It's the presentation and how much people will absorb from it that I care about.

I would not say I am terribly weak to Breloom. Breloom on its own is not a big problem at all. However, when Breloom is coupled with a few Pokemon that can make holes in this team, it is hard to play against. That can be said for almost any team with a certain threat. We're playing DPP here. Team matchups don't determine everything, but it's when certain combinations of things make it too big of a deficit to overcome do you lose. I will probably try Heatran and a few of the other sixth slot Pokemon that people have suggested.

 

[Pride]

While this is a good team and while I'm sure you've put a lot of thought into it, this team is literally Pokemon for Pokemon, move for move Earthworm's stall team with Scarf Tyranitar over Heatran. It seems a bit arrogant calling it "Kevin Garrett stall" when 5/6 Pokemon are carbon copies.

Come on that isn't fair, it says in the very first paragraph that he wasn't the creator of a team like this. He further says that the Pokemon in the final slot is the Pokemon that is given more freedom, thus you get different variations of stall teams such as this one with ScarfTar, EW's team with SpDef Heatran, or some other people will run Celebi and Shaymin in the final slot. The RMT is filled with his own theory on how to use the team and how to approach threats which is where the name of the rmt comes from.

And Breloom can be a tough match against any team that is slow in nature, Gyarados' intimidate spam and Rotom's Shadow Ball is the only true ways to break it down. SpDef Heatran could possibly work to take some of the pressure off of both of those and give a solid ohko on Breloom but, like with changing any of the Pokemon, it comes down to pros and cons (losing coverage against Starmie for example) and how well the user of the team can adapt to the threat.

 

[muffinhead]

Hi Kevin Garrett :D This team is abolutely insane. After stalking a bunch of your battles I saw that even if your team is facing a problem, your analytical skills are pretty much unequaled. With great defensive pivots, entry hazards, and sandstorm going, almost any dangerous sweeper is shut down right away. I do see one potentially dangerous pokemon to this team: Infernape. With Tyranitar gone and Hippowdon weakened, an Infernape running SD, Flare Blitz, CC, and Thunderpunch could run through your team. I understand that this is a very small window of opportunity, but with proper scouting this shouldn't be a major issue.

I also see that a lot of your "threats" (lol) are weak to Fire. Jirachi, Skarmory, Scizor, Shaymin can be managed somewhat easily right now, but a Fire move would work very well. I think this could be handled slightly better by putting Flamethrower over Seismic Toss on your Blissey. Granted certain matchups you would lose, but now the power to hit Gengar, non-CM Celebi, and Shaymin harder along with smacking around standard Skarmory is a pretty big deal for this team. I wish I have more to say... There is a certain level any team can reach, and past that there's no point to trying to improve what doesn't need improvement. Your team has reached that level ;_;

This team is masterfully crafted. Kudos on #1 spot on leaderboard, well deserved :D

 

[august]

Alright you guys need to lay off of kevin, he didn't "steal" Earthworm or Taylors team, if you took the time to read you'd see that we worked on the team TOGETHER and just because it has ScarfTar doesn't mean its from taylors team, there was a period where almost every stall team had ScarfTar.

ps if you really wanna rag on someone, i used Forry / Pert / ScarfTar / Bliss / Rotom / Gyara, the exact same mons taylor used with different sets, and no one ever insulted me for using them, so why do you guys think its funny to rag on kevin?

also all stall has the same core. get over it.

 

[Fayz-nite]

I can't find any faults in this team and im amazed in all your effort put into this. The amount you wrote for your RMT is more than I write for a school report.

btw how long did it take you to type up this RMT?

 

[Kevin Garrett]

It took me about two weeks to type this up and edit it. I should point out that I have used this team for over a year now. Just because I'm posting it now doesn't mean that it was made recently. I have used it for at least 18 months so naturally there was a lot to say. I could have said a lot more, but that would have only deterred more people from reading it. It's hard to strike a balance between being thorough so any person can try this team and be moderately successful and being too much. Those of you that may be thinking to yourself it is too much should know that I sent this to Mekkah a few days before I posted it and he would ask me things that were not in here that I needed to add.

 

[FalknerLevel7Pidgey]

The reason why I say Gyarados is so valuable is not only because of its ability to handle a majority of offensive threats, but because of its function on the team. It is the fastest user of Roar on this team.

Lol, what? Roar is a minus priority move... there is no such thing as "fastest user of Roar." Even a Relaxed nature Shuckle will get to use a move before Gyarados uses Roar.

 

[Kevin Garrett]

Lol, what? Roar is a minus priority move... there is no such thing as "fastest user of Roar." Even a Relaxed nature Shuckle will get to use a move before Gyarados uses Roar.

Fastest Roar can determine a stall vs. stall game. Not to mention that Shoddy Battle doesn't give Roar a minus priority when used with Sleep Talk.

 

[george182]

Fastest Roar can determine a stall vs. stall game. Not to mention that Shoddy Battle doesn't give Roar a minus priority when used with Sleep Talk.

shoddy battle doesn't give it a minus priority when used with sleep talk because wifi doesn't. If you think about it wouldn't make sense anyway, because you couldn't sleep talk first, and then get a negative priority roar.

@FalknerLevel7Pidgey

He means if both pokemon are using roar at the same time, then it's good to win the speed tie.

I think it would be better if you lead with Forretress, purely because he has more entry hazards to set up, so it's better to get him in more, than it is for Hippowdon. Forretress can also spin away entry hazards set up by Metagross and Swampert etc. so Gyra can be used more easily and you don't have to wait to bring him in. Forretress resist explosion, which will discourage the oponent from exploding early game. You don't need to worry too much about sandstorm, as you have 2 pokemon to set it up anyway, it's not a problem if it's not up first turn, your probably gonna get it in early enough.

I'm not too keen on the idea of sp.def hippowdon, I would prefer the standard 168 def/88 sp.def. I think you would be better off making Gyra sp.def with a careful nature 248 hp/80 def/180 sp.def. This will give you a consistent counter to life orbed heatran, who can rip apart stall teams.

 

[Kevin Garrett]

shoddy battle doesn't give it a minus priority when used with sleep talk because wifi doesn't. If you think about it wouldn't make sense anyway, because you couldn't sleep talk first, and then get a negative priority roar.

@FalknerLevel7Pidgey

He means if both pokemon are using roar at the same time, then it's good to win the speed tie.

I think it would be better if you lead with Forretress, purely because he has more entry hazards to set up, so it's better to get him in more, than it is for Hippowdon. Forretress can also spin away entry hazards set up by Metagross and Swampert etc. making it slightly easier for Gyra to come in. Forretress resist explosion, which will discourage the oponent from exploding early game. You don't need to worry too much about sandstorm, as you have 2 pokemon to set it up anyway, it's not a problem if it's not up first turn, your probably gonna get it in early enough.

I'm not too keen on the idea of sp.def hippowdon, I would prefer the standard 168 def/88 sp.def. I think you would be better off making Gyra sp.def with a careful nature 248 hp/80 def/180 sp.def. This will give you a consistent counter to life orbed heatran, who can rip apart stall teams.

I never said Wi-Fi was any different. I specifically stated Shoddy Battle because that is all I use this team on.

As for Hippowdon and Forretress vying for the lead spot, I've read through all the posts and talked to a few people. If I were to lead with Forretress I would want Stealth Rock on it because it is the best entry hazard. Games where Pokemon like Gyarados and Dragonite can come in early with little risk is not the kind of game I want to play. For now I have just kept it the same because I don't want all three entry hazards on Forretress and if I kept it to two I would need an additional Spiker.

Special Defense Gyarados is a worse idea. It can't handle CM Jirachi, Jolteon, and Gengar as well as Hippowdon. Not to mention I lose a better counter to Lucario and Breloom. That would create more weaknesses to patch up a Pokemon that would need to Explode to kill anything.

 

[george182]

I never said Wi-Fi was any different. I specifically stated Shoddy Battle because that is all I use this team on.

As for Hippowdon and Forretress vying for the lead spot, I've read through all the posts and talked to a few people. If I were to lead with Forretress I would want Stealth Rock on it because it is the best entry hazard. Games where Pokemon like Gyarados and Dragonite can come in early with little risk is not the kind of game I want to play. For now I have just kept it the same because I don't want all three entry hazards on Forretress and if I kept it to two I would need an additional Spiker.

Your too quick at replying lol, i like to post a little bit then look at the team an edit it lol.

The next thing was with Rotom, I would suggest changing him to a wash form, purely to scare heatran and tyranitar from switching in. Heat form scares of scizor, but I think tyranitar is more threatening than scizor.

Physically defensive hippowdon will also help against SD infernape.

I think that's all the possible changes I would consider if it was my team. Hope I helped.

 

[Kevin Garrett]

Here is a pruned log of the Smogon Tour finals game from Saturday. I removed all the text from talking and joining. Everything worked out well in general. I had some good fortune and some bad luck, but overall it was balanced looking at the whole tournament.

Rules: Evasion Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Sleep Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause, Timed Battle
Kevin Garrett sent out Hippowdon (lvl 100 Hippowdon ?).
Grimm70 sent out Aerodactyl (lvl 100 Aerodactyl ?).
Aerodactyl is exerting its pressure!
Hippowdon's Sand Stream whipped up a sandstorm!
A sandstorm brewed!
Kevin Garrett switched in Gyarados (lvl 100 Gyarados ?).
Gyarados's Intimidate cut Aerodactyl's attack!
Aerodactyl used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around the foe's team!
The sandstorm rages.
Gyarados is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Gyarados lost 6% of its health.
Gyarados's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gyarados restored 6% of its health.
---
Aerodactyl used Rock Slide.
It's super effective!
Gyarados lost 33% of its health.
Gyarados used Waterfall.
It's super effective!
Aerodactyl lost 99% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
Gyarados is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Gyarados lost 6% of its health.
Gyarados's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gyarados restored 6% of its health.
---
Kevin Garrett switched in Forretress (lvl 100 Forretress ?).
Pointed stones dug into Forretress.
Forretress lost 12% of its health.
Aerodactyl used Taunt.
Forretress fell for the taunt!
The sandstorm rages.
Forretress's leftovers restored its health a little!
Forretress restored 6% of its health.
---
Aerodactyl used Rock Slide.
Forretress lost 18% of its health.
Forretress used Rapid Spin.
Forretress blew away the pointed stones!
It's not very effective...
Aerodactyl lost 1% of its health.
Grimm70's Aerodactyl fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
Forretress's leftovers restored its health a little!
Forretress restored 6% of its health.
---
Grimm70 switched in Zapdos (lvl 100 Zapdos).
Zapdos is exerting its pressure!
Kevin Garrett switched in Hippowdon (lvl 100 Hippowdon ?).
Hippowdon's Sand Stream whipped up a sandstorm!
Zapdos used Thunderbolt.
It doesn't affect Hippowdon...
The sandstorm rages.
Zapdos is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Zapdos lost 6% of its health.
---
Zapdos used Hidden Power.
It's super effective!
Hippowdon lost 47% of its health.
Zapdos lost 10% of its health.
Hippowdon used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around the foe's team!
The sandstorm rages.
Zapdos is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Zapdos lost 6% of its health.
Hippowdon's leftovers restored its health a little!
Hippowdon restored 6% of its health.
---
Zapdos used Hidden Power.
It's super effective!
A critical hit!
Hippowdon lost 59% of its health.
Kevin Garrett's Hippowdon fainted.
Zapdos lost 10% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
Zapdos is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Zapdos lost 6% of its health.
---
Kevin Garrett switched in Tyranitar (lvl 100 Tyranitar ?).
Tyranitar's Sand Stream whipped up a sandstorm!
Tyranitar used Stone Edge.
It's super effective!
Zapdos lost 61% of its health.
Grimm70's Zapdos fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
---
Grimm70 switched in Starmie (lvl 100 Starmie).
Pointed stones dug into Starmie.
Starmie lost 12% of its health.
Kevin Garrett switched in Blissey (lvl 100 Blissey ?).
Starmie used Hydro Pump.
Blissey lost 21% of its health.
Starmie lost 10% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
Starmie is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Starmie lost 6% of its health.
Blissey is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Blissey lost 6% of its health.
Blissey's leftovers restored its health a little!
Blissey restored 6% of its health.
---
Grimm70 switched in Flygon (lvl 100 Flygon ?).
Pointed stones dug into Flygon.
Flygon lost 6% of its health.
Blissey used Seismic Toss.
Flygon lost 33% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
Blissey is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Blissey lost 6% of its health.
Blissey's leftovers restored its health a little!
Blissey restored 6% of its health.
---
Kevin Garrett switched in Forretress (lvl 100 Forretress ?).
Flygon used Dragon Claw.
It's not very effective...
Forretress lost 14% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
Forretress's leftovers restored its health a little!
Forretress restored 6% of its health.
---
Grimm70 switched in Starmie (lvl 100 Starmie).
Pointed stones dug into Starmie.
Starmie lost 12% of its health.
Forretress used Spikes.
Spikes were scattered around the foe's team!
The sandstorm rages.
Starmie is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Starmie lost 6% of its health.
Forretress's leftovers restored its health a little!
Forretress restored 6% of its health.
---
Kevin Garrett switched in Blissey (lvl 100 Blissey ?).
Starmie used Hydro Pump.
Blissey lost 20% of its health.
Starmie lost 10% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
Starmie is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Starmie lost 6% of its health.
Blissey is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Blissey lost 6% of its health.
Blissey's leftovers restored its health a little!
Blissey restored 6% of its health.
---
Grimm70 switched in Flygon (lvl 100 Flygon ?).
Pointed stones dug into Flygon.
Flygon lost 6% of its health.
Blissey used Softboiled.
Blissey restored 41% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
Blissey is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Blissey lost 6% of its health.
Blissey's leftovers restored its health a little!
Blissey restored 6% of its health.
---
Kevin Garrett switched in Gyarados (lvl 100 Gyarados ?).
Gyarados's Intimidate cut Flygon's attack!
Flygon used Earthquake.
It doesn't affect Gyarados...
The sandstorm rages.
Gyarados is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Gyarados lost 6% of its health.
Gyarados's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gyarados restored 6% of its health.
---
Kevin Garrett switched in Tyranitar (lvl 100 Tyranitar ?).
Tyranitar's Sand Stream whipped up a sandstorm!
Grimm70 switched in Starmie (lvl 100 Starmie).
Pointed stones dug into Starmie.
Starmie lost 12% of its health.
Starmie was hurt by Spikes!
Starmie lost 12% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
Starmie is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Starmie lost 6% of its health.
---
Tyranitar used Crunch.
It's super effective!
A critical hit!
Starmie lost 7% of its health.
Grimm70's Starmie fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
---
Grimm70 switched in Scizor (lvl 100 Scizor ?).
Pointed stones dug into Scizor.
Scizor lost 12% of its health.
Scizor was hurt by Spikes!
Scizor lost 12% of its health.
Kevin Garrett switched in Gyarados (lvl 100 Gyarados ?).
Gyarados's Intimidate cut Scizor's attack!
Scizor used Aerial Ace.
Gyarados lost 26% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
Gyarados is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Gyarados lost 6% of its health.
Gyarados's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gyarados restored 6% of its health.
---
Grimm70 switched in Flygon (lvl 100 Flygon ?).
Pointed stones dug into Flygon.
Flygon lost 6% of its health.
Gyarados used Waterfall.
Flygon lost 43% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
Gyarados is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Gyarados lost 6% of its health.
Gyarados's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gyarados restored 6% of its health.
---
Kevin Garrett switched in Forretress (lvl 100 Forretress ?).
Flygon used Earthquake.
Forretress lost 35% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
Forretress's leftovers restored its health a little!
Forretress restored 6% of its health.
---
Flygon used Earthquake.
Forretress lost 33% of its health.
Forretress used Spikes.
Spikes were scattered around the foe's team!
The sandstorm rages.
Forretress's leftovers restored its health a little!
Forretress restored 6% of its health.
---
Kevin Garrett switched in Gyarados (lvl 100 Gyarados ?).
Gyarados's Intimidate cut Flygon's attack!
Flygon used Earthquake.
It doesn't affect Gyarados...
The sandstorm rages.
Gyarados is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Gyarados lost 6% of its health.
Gyarados's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gyarados restored 6% of its health.
---
Flygon used Earthquake.
It doesn't affect Gyarados...
Gyarados used Roar.
Grimm70 switched in Gengar (lvl 100 Gengar ?).
Pointed stones dug into Gengar.
Gengar lost 12% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
Gengar is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Gengar lost 6% of its health.
Gyarados is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Gyarados lost 6% of its health.
Gyarados's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gyarados restored 6% of its health.
---
Gengar used Thunderbolt.
It's super effective!
Gyarados lost 41% of its health.
Kevin Garrett's Gyarados fainted.
Gengar lost 10% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
Gengar is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Gengar lost 6% of its health.
---
Kevin Garrett switched in Tyranitar (lvl 100 Tyranitar ?).
Tyranitar's Sand Stream whipped up a sandstorm!
Tyranitar used Pursuit.
It's super effective!
Gengar lost 66% of its health.
Grimm70's Gengar fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
---
Grimm70 switched in Flygon (lvl 100 Flygon ?).
Pointed stones dug into Flygon.
Flygon lost 6% of its health.
Grimm70's Flygon fainted.
Grimm70 switched in Scizor (lvl 100 Scizor ?).
Pointed stones dug into Scizor.
Scizor lost 12% of its health.
Scizor was hurt by Spikes!
Scizor lost 19% of its health.
Kevin Garrett switched in Rotom-h (lvl 100 Rotom-h).
Scizor used Superpower.
It doesn't affect Rotom-h...
The sandstorm rages.
Rotom-h is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Rotom-h lost 6% of its health.
Rotom-h's leftovers restored its health a little!
Rotom-h restored 6% of its health.
---
Rotom-h used Thunderbolt.
Scizor lost 44% of its health.
Scizor used Superpower.
It doesn't affect Rotom-h...
The sandstorm rages.
Rotom-h is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Rotom-h lost 6% of its health.
Rotom-h's leftovers restored its health a little!
Rotom-h restored 6% of its health.
---
Rotom-h used Thunderbolt.
Scizor lost 0% of its health.
Grimm70's Scizor fainted.
Kevin Garrett wins!

 

[STEELDRAGON]

Quite a great team, probably one of the best stall teams in recent times. What is your plan against Rest-talk Machamp and Heracross? It seems if Gyarados isn't around, it could be a problem, since most of your pokemon can't do much to it, and it can inflict major damage, and it if has guts, then your worse off.

 

[Kevin Garrett]

Quite a great team, probably one of the best stall teams in recent times. What is your plan against Rest-talk Machamp and Heracross? It seems if Gyarados isn't around, it could be a problem, since most of your pokemon can't do much to it, and it can inflict major damage, and it if has guts, then your worse off.

Rest Talk Machamp is handled the same way as all other Machamp. I go to Gyarados first and handle it between that, Rotom-H, and Hippowdon. I have never played against a Rest Talk Heracross, but I'd imagine it wouldn't be too threatening seeing as though it would have limited coverage. Heracross is most dangerous to this team as a Swords Dancer, in which case I have to play around it if I can. If that is not possible, I will sacrifice the least necessary Pokemon to force it out or kill it with Tyranitar. As for, "if Gyarados isn't around," there is no point in mentioning that because you can say the same thing about any team (that they are weak to X and Y if they are missing Z).

 

[JSND]

isnt a combination of heracross and magnezone a bane of this team ?
Heracross can beat blissey,Ttar,Stone edge on Gyara,and 2 HKO Hippo had it switched in and toxic spikes further increase its massive power. Yeah it lost to residual SS i know Magnezone then handle Forry had it is trapped. Especially with stall team
relatively slow on nature Scizor can "set up" u turn easily.
With some team mates complementing those three they might give a huge problem,
and sadly since im a bad player i cant say anymore well thats just my opinion
just sorry if it is a noobish one
Anyway a great team. Final question since the last slot is for filler and weakness
handling pokemon isnt ttar is the obvious choice since it gave problem to ghost
that block rappid spinner ? Im quite a begginer with stall team

 

[Kevin Garrett]

isnt a combination of heracross and magnezone a bane of this team ?
Heracross can beat blissey,Ttar,Stone edge on Gyara,and 2 HKO Hippo had it switched in and toxic spikes further increase its massive power. Yeah it lost to residual SS i know Magnezone then handle Forry had it is trapped. Especially with stall team
relatively slow on nature Scizor can "set up" u turn easily.
With some team mates complementing those three they might give a huge problem,
and sadly since im a bad player i cant say anymore well thats just my opinion
just sorry if it is a noobish one
Anyway a great team. Final question since the last slot is for filler and weakness
handling pokemon isnt ttar is the obvious choice since it gave problem to ghost
that block rappid spinner ? Im quite a begginer with stall team

It might be to some people. That's why I say people should use Spikes first. Not only is it permanent damage, but it hits the heavily Steel-dominated metagame. I use Toxic Spikes when something is revealed to be needing them, otherwise if they end up having a grounded Poison-type, those free turns I had setting up before are now a waste. You are also overly simplifying Heracross. If it beats Tyranitar, then it can't beat any of Hippowdon, Rotom-H, and Gyarados because it is Choice Scarf. The only variants that hit like a truck are Choice Band and Swords Dance, like I already said. Also, who leaves Blissey in on Heracross?

Heracross is kind of similar to Lucario. People have said that I am weak to Lucario because I have Special Defense on Hippowdon. Is that really so? Look at it this way, Gyarados beats it on its own. Worst case scenerio, if they have Stealth Rock in play, I will be 2HKO'd by Extremespeed. Tyranitar is a perfect revenge kill in this situation, unless Lucario is weak enough that Life Orb will kill it. Now before anyone goes screaming about Bullet Punch, figure this: If Lucario has Bullet Punch, it has to use Close Combat on Gyarados. If it uses Close Combat on Gyarados, Waterfall will OHKO after the Defense drop. Essentially, their set determines how they fall. That's how it is like Heracross. One set doesn't destroy the team because there are safeguards against it.

If people are looking for the bane of this team, it was already mentioned in this thread. There are some things I could do about it, but with the metagame the way it is and how uncommon the Pokemon is, it is pointless to change anything around for it.

 

[JSND]

It might be to some people. That's why I say people should use Spikes first. Not only is it permanent damage, but it hits the heavily Steel-dominated metagame. I use Toxic Spikes when something is revealed to be needing them, otherwise if they end up having a grounded Poison-type, those free turns I had setting up before are now a waste. You are also overly simplifying Heracross. If it beats Tyranitar, then it can't beat any of Hippowdon, Rotom-H, and Gyarados because it is Choice Scarf. The only variants that hit like a truck are Choice Band and Swords Dance, like I already said. Also, who leaves Blissey in on Heracross?

Heracross is kind of similar to Lucario. People have said that I am weak to Lucario because I have Special Defense on Hippowdon. Is that really so? Look at it this way, Gyarados beats it on its own. Worst case scenerio, if they have Stealth Rock in play, I will be 2HKO'd by Extremespeed. Tyranitar is a perfect revenge kill in this situation, unless Lucario is weak enough that Life Orb will kill it. Now before anyone goes screaming about Bullet Punch, figure this: If Lucario has Bullet Punch, it has to use Close Combat on Gyarados. If it uses Close Combat on Gyarados, Waterfall will OHKO after the Defense drop. Essentially, their set determines how they fall. That's how it is like Heracross. One set doesn't destroy the team because there are safeguards against it.

If people are looking for the bane of this team, it was already mentioned in this thread. There are some things I could do about it, but with the metagame the way it is and how uncommon the Pokemon is, it is pointless to change anything around for it.

Hera resists every move barring SE the scarftar uses so without scarf it
can beat ttar. But i forgot to notice that gyara wouldnt be OHKO by
-1SE or even neutral SE for that matter. Also rotom can 2HKO Hera
making it unable to reliably beat Rotom. How stupid seeing i havent realized why prediction is darn important in determining the result of using stall huh

 

[ToF]

As an avid stall user I'm pretty sure this advice will be somewhat helpful if you decide to use this team in the future.

I understand the benefits of Shadow Ball on Rotom-H, but I think Reflect is infinitely better for two reasons. One, if Tyranitar comes out, Rotom-H isn't absolutely fucked lol. Secondly, it helps out in taking hits from annoying things like Breloom especially. Getting a Reflect up also means Gyarados is infinitely easier to set-up on with Forretress, allowing you not only the ability to spin rocks away if they are up to help out your own Gyarados, but getting the hazards up that are crucial to the team strategy.

The other point is Nasty Plot Infernape. Yes you have some ways of dealing with it, but they aren't exactly solid. Reflect on Rotom-H could open the way to a bit more specially defensive Gyarados, allowing you to even take shit like Dragonite's Draco Meteor better and Resting it off. You don't want Hippowdon taking Draco Meteors all the time, or else you might get swept by something like a DD Tyranitar.

Just food for thought I guess. Obviously a great team, I've seen and played against it and it's always a solid choice for any one on one game.

 

[Kevin Garrett]

Thanks for the rate, ToF. We have payed quite a few times so your insight is valuable. I'm still mixed on using Reflect; it's one of those things that is great in some games but holds you back in others. I'll continue to test it. This is what I have found so far:

Pros:
+ Reflect handles Breloom just as well, if not better. Thunderbolt can still break Substitute.
+ It helps Forretress set up entry hazards.
+ Hippowdon becomes an untouchable wall.
+ It helps against Pursuit.

Cons:
- Not being able to hit certain things for much damage (Flygon, Rotom-A, Venusaur were the ones I encountered in the set of games I played).
- Sleep Talk isn't threatening when I need to attack.
- Against stall, Tyranitar is sort of my only options for taking out their Rotom-A.

 

[insomniac]

I've played around with this team and in my opinion the biggest thing it lacks is a Wish passer. Other then that I really have no complaints at all, it's a excellent team.

Also as for the Heatran over Ttar thing I think it depends on the person. I found ScarfTar very beneficial being able to tear apart Rain Dance sweepers mid-to-late game and also just being able to just take out frail half-dead Pokemon at any given moment.

This team definitely made me appreciate the stall metagame, very well made.

 

[Mekkah]

I have to say I've rarely had my Rotom try to match up against Rotom, perhaps because by the time I know it doesn't use Shadow Ball it's already being taken care of by Tyranitar. There's a lot to say for Reflect over Shadow Ball, but I don't think Forretress being able to set up hazards on enemy Gyarados is one of them.

This is probably obvious to ToF but just pointing this out anyway...

For one, if it ever comes to Rotom vs Gyarados and you aren't getting flinched to death (takes only one DD'd Waterfall to lose the match-up), you want to kill it, not Reflect up.

So for something like Reflected Forretress vs Gyarados ever to happen, it needs to be something like Rotom setting up Reflect against Breloom, Breloom switches out for Tyranitar (without Flamethrower), and then Forretress comes in to take the hit (with Rotom perhaps getting hit by a Pursuit). Now, Reflect is on its third turn already. Are you going to set up hazards against a Dragon Dancing Gyarados here? The only move it would possibly use besides Dragon Dance is Taunt (it certainly isn't going to attack) and in that case you want to use Payback. But if you ask me I'd go straight to Gyarados and Roar that guy out.

That said, Dragon Dance Gyarados is actually one of this team's biggest enemies. Either Taunt or Stone Edge make it come out on top (either in short or long term) versus this team's Gyarados, so often it's all down to Rotom and his 70% chance of not getting flinched. And this is not even talking about those times where Breloom puts Rotom to sleep. I hate Gyarados.

 

[JSND]

I have to say I've rarely had my Rotom try to match up against Rotom, perhaps because by the time I know it doesn't use Shadow Ball it's already being taken care of by Tyranitar. There's a lot to say for Reflect over Shadow Ball, but I don't think Forretress being able to set up hazards on enemy Gyarados is one of them.

This is probably obvious to ToF but just pointing this out anyway...

For one, if it ever comes to Rotom vs Gyarados and you aren't getting flinched to death (takes only one DD'd Waterfall to lose the match-up), you want to kill it, not Reflect up.

So for something like Reflected Forretress vs Gyarados ever to happen, it needs to be something like Rotom setting up Reflect against Breloom, Breloom switches out for Tyranitar (without Flamethrower), and then Forretress comes in to take the hit (with Rotom perhaps getting hit by a Pursuit). Now, Reflect is on its third turn already. Are you going to set up hazards against a Dragon Dancing Gyarados here? The only move it would possibly use besides Dragon Dance is Taunt (it certainly isn't going to attack) and in that case you want to use Payback. But if you ask me I'd go straight to Gyarados and Roar that guy out.

That said, Dragon Dance Gyarados is actually one of this team's biggest enemies. Either Taunt or Stone Edge make it come out on top (either in short or long term) versus this team's Gyarados, so often it's all down to Rotom and his 70% chance of not getting flinched. And this is not even talking about those times where Breloom puts Rotom to sleep. I hate Gyarados.

is gyarados really that big of a threat that this kind of near perfect team has problem to ? Sure i know that gyara has been known as the most solid threat in gen 4 metagame because of its solid top 10 position over the ladder but well... cant gyara be played around by switching over ?

 

[Kevin Garrett]

I have to say I've rarely had my Rotom try to match up against Rotom, perhaps because by the time I know it doesn't use Shadow Ball it's already being taken care of by Tyranitar. There's a lot to say for Reflect over Shadow Ball, but I don't think Forretress being able to set up hazards on enemy Gyarados is one of them.

Most of the Rotom-A I have seen on stall team lately have had Will-O-Wisp and Thunderbolt. This is discounting the Choice Rotom-H and Rotom-W that appear on semi-stall teams frequently. Against a stall team you really want to pick your spots well to use Tyranitar. Just sending it out on the first Rotom sighting would be bad idea unless it didn't show Leftovers. If they set up Toxic Spikes first, you don't have to worry about being burned and can do that move. Lacking Shadow Ball means you are forced to switch out of Rotom and can't even hit it on the switch or if you get it below 70%. I like to have it as a backup in those cases.

 

[Meru]

I've been playing with this team and some pokemon to face that really drive me up the wall:

Curse Swampert last pokemon. Such a lame strategy other people use since this team doesn't carry a grass attack, it automatically loses.

Lucario. I know Gyarados covers it, but so many teams know how to force enough pressure where I can't spin away SR and Lucario keeps coming out.

SD Breloom. I shit you not.

Physical threats in general. Gyarados is very easily overwhelmed by heavy offense since Forretress and Hippowdon are not dedicated physical walls.

 

[Faladran]

I don't see how any variant of Lucario could possibly sweep through this team. Hippowdon survives a Jolly +2 Close Combat and KOs back with Earthquake. Gyarados does an excellent job of countering any set, and Lucario won't survive repeated LO recoil and switch-ins into entry hazards. Scarf Tyranitar can easily revenge kill sets that don't run Bullet Punch, which is often the case. I feel that a lot of the "major threats" that people are pointing out can be attributed more accurately to their own misplays than to the team itself.