R.I.P. Leads and Scouting

I know my opinion means nothing, but this will seriously take away from the the competitiveness of the game.

It just will.

I see no benefits to this at all.
 
First of all, while this does change things dramatically, I can't help but feel that all of your bitching is simply the fact that you cannot accept change. I understand this is a drastic change for the major competitive gameplay, and it does "ruin" the way 4th gen, and every other Gen is played in terms of predicting for that matter, but the point is this; This is 5th Gen, not 4th, or 3rd, or any other Gen for that matter. All this does is simply change the way you're going to make predictions in this game. It's going to completely change the way everything will work because of this. Besides, you only know the Pokemon. Not movesets, not abilities, not ev's or iv's, nothing but the Pokemon themselves. This opens up so many possibilities for varied strategies and mind games, I think people will use different sets more often in order to try and trick their opponents into assuming something about one of their Pokemon because they can see it. And while this trickery is a big part of the new metagame, I also feel that this is a huge opportunity for preemptive strategy as well.

All in all, I do not view this change as better or worse, just different, and I do acknowledge its existence. I will be very upset with Smogon if they do NOT include this into PokeLab. It may be something a lot of people don not want, but it's their, and removing this feature from competitive play would be like the much talked about "nerfing of SR". It would be changing what gamefreak gave to us, and essentially completely altering all of how 5th Gen would play because of it.
 
Is this official then? When we play on the Gen 5 simulator we will see our opponents team before every match? This is guaranteed?
 
It's the same effect either way. You're changing an aspect of the game that could be changed all the same through an agreement by the players.

I never said it was a good idea. However, it's an idea that must be tested in order to figure out whether or not it's a good idea. If the metagame is better off without this feature, then it should be removed by any means necessary.
The difference is that the other agreements are actually enforceable over wifi. There's no way to tell if your opponent looked at your team or not so it cannot be enforced.
 

Azure Demon

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Well I personally like the change this gives zorark and a few other pokemon a chance to cause some mischief by switching up there order so your opponent won't know what pokemon he will turn into. Also this gives all of us a chance to start predictions right out of the gate
 
The difference is that the other agreements are actually enforceable over wifi. There's no way to tell if your opponent looked at your team or not so it cannot be enforced.
That may be true, but 1) Shoddy isn't supposed to simulate Wi-Fi and 2) competitive play in general isn't supposed to be done over Wi-Fi. Whether it can be enforced over Wi-Fi might be an important question for people who plan to play over Wi-Fi, but for other players, not so much.

Of course, there is a lot of overlap in those groups. However, there is also a lot of overlap with people who play Random, PBR, etc., which enforce other rules entirely, and the community has been able to deal with that. Whether the rules in one type of play can be enforced when taken to another type of play is probably a question that needn't be asked.

Personally, as a former Netbattle user, I don't see any reason not to make it optional.
 
That may be true, but 1) Shoddy isn't supposed to simulate Wi-Fi and 2) competitive play in general isn't supposed to be done over Wi-Fi. Whether it can be enforced over Wi-Fi might be an important question for people who plan to play over Wi-Fi, but for other players, not so much.

Personally, as a former Netbattle user, I don't see any reason not to make it optional.
First off, there are actually those of us who do play competitively over wifi.

It also seems highly unlikely that IR mode will become the cartridge battle mode of choice, as it is as limiting as 3rd gen in terms of finding others to play against (from my understanding, this is the only mode without reveal known so far). Wifi will remain the dominant mode of battle; I suspect FC wifi, as it doesn't contain the restrictions of random.

If pokelab chooses to ignore this new feature, than the data pokelab retrieves will become far less meaningful to the cartridge metagame. Sets and strategies devoted to 4th Gen style play will not be nearly as relevant to members of this community who play cartridge. Smogon in general, I suspect, would lose considerable ground as a resorce to cartridge players, because its strategies, and unfortunately, its tiers, would not be geared to 5th Gen play as it exists.

As it stands now, competitive cartridge players, like sim players, depend on the information gleaned from shoddy/pokelab to determine tiers and maintain balanced and fair battles. As the 20 or so pages of posts have made abundantly clear, this reveal change will drastically alter how the teams and movesets are built. If pokelab chooses to remove the reveal feature, then smogon's strategies and tiers will no longer apply to actual cartridge play, and I doubt anything will take its place. The two metagames will become far removed from each other, and hard data for tiering in wifi will be excruciatingly hard to gather, examine, and manifest into tiers and move sets.
 
When you play "competitively" over Wi-Fi, you play mock-competitively. Due to the nature of Wi-Fi, it is basically impossible to hold any sort of true competition in the first place. Wi-Fi has many limitations which are not optional and lacks the option to enable many others.

The competitive community rightfully circumvents this. When using Wi-Fi, cheat codes and agreements between players often have to be used to make up for the game's failures. The only difference here is that the game makes it easy for the players to violate those agreements.

Of course, you are also relying upon a false dichotomy. This is not a simple question of whether simulators will imitate Wi-Fi or imitate IR. It is entirely possible to offer all the features of both.

Complaining about this is essentially the same as complaining that Shoddy allows the Rotom Formes and Smogon doesn't offer tips on how to get the most out of Sheer Cold.
 
I wasn't complaining; though I would like to see the simulator adhere to the rules laid out by the video games, I can cope if it doesn't. I was simply pointing out the wide scale effects this would have on the cartridge metagame.

I don' see why players agreeing to follow certain rules before a match is so outlandish. I battle several times a week on cartridge against players that follow rules like sleep clause, species clause, and no OHKO rules. These rules were put in place to make a stronger, more even battle system. People are perfectly capable of enforcing these rules without the dictates of a simulator. Just because we don't necessarily play pokelab/shoddy doesn't mean our battles, concerns, or contributions to the community are devoid of merit.

If the simulator offers all modes from gen 5, then that's peachy, too. I doubt IR with its 50 lvl pokemon will catch on (not sure if this is capped or auto leveled, has that been confirmed yet??), but if it does, then that is likely the direction the community, as a whole, will head in.

I'm hoping, obviously, that the sim will make the reveal mandatory in standard modes of play, to best simulate actual battle standards, otherwise the small gap between cartridge and sim will widen enormously. It is the simulated community as a whole that has actively chosen to imitate the rules of the cartridges to establish battle standards, and it has resulted in a convinient tiering system for both metagames. If the simulator community now chooses to diviate from that imitation, as we have currently come to understand it exists, than the cartridge metagame can no longer rely on that convinience.
 
The point of an online Pokémon simulator is just that - to simulate the game of Pokémon. The issue here is that there are two slightly different options. However, I think it is clear that the overwhelmingly more common form of Pokémon battles will involve seeing the opponents team. In random Wifi battles, you see the opponent's team. In Wireless battles with friends, you see the opponent's team. In Wifi Friend Code battles, you see the opponent's team. In general this seems to be the standard of battles for Black and White. There is one exception - the much less commonly used IR battling. What kind of Pokémon simulator would ignore all the simpler, more common, more used, more popular ways of battle and simulate a little side battle that hardly anyone will play? Isn't the point of a simulator to simulate the standard of battles? Like it or not, seeing the opponent's team is the new standard - it is used in all the standard battle methods. Why simulate something else?
 
The point of an online Pokémon simulator is just that - to simulate the game of Pokémon. The issue here is that there are two slightly different options. However, I think it is clear that the overwhelmingly more common form of Pokémon battles will involve seeing the opponents team. In random Wifi battles, you see the opponent's team. In Wireless battles with friends, you see the opponent's team. In Wifi Friend Code battles, you see the opponent's team. In general this seems to be the standard of battles for Black and White. There is one exception - the much less commonly used IR battling. What kind of Pokémon simulator would ignore all the simpler, more common, more used, more popular ways of battle and simulate a little side battle that hardly anyone will play? Isn't the point of a simulator to simulate the standard of battles? Like it or not, seeing the opponent's team is the new standard - it is used in all the standard battle methods. Why simulate something else?
Even ignoring the false dichotomy, it's not like the game links directly to your brain and uploads the visual. It is still optional, but your opponent has an easier time of cheating. That is a flaw in the game, not in the simulator.

If you're desperate to push this on everyone regardless of whether it ruins the game, you can do that. But do it honestly: "I think this change should be shoved down your throats, so there."
 
Even ignoring the false dichotomy, it's not like the game links directly to your brain and uploads the visual. It is still optional, but your opponent has an easier time of cheating. That is a flaw in the game, not in the simulator.

If you're desperate to push this on everyone regardless of whether it ruins the game, you can do that. But do it honestly: "I think this change should be shoved down your throats, so there."
Yeah but it doesn't ruin the game, it's stupid to think that in the first place and then there's actual proof of it with PBR (and people are already doing wi-fi battles)

This change should be shoved down your throat, just like the special/physical slit in D/P was. It's a new part of the game. -_-
 
Yeah but it doesn't ruin the game, it's stupid to think that in the first place and then there's actual proof of it with PBR.

This change should be shoved down your throat, just like the special/physical slit in D/P was. It's a new part of the game. -_-
From what I've read, it seems PBR's system is actually very different from this one. Whereas PBR shows both sides many things they might be facing and allows them to choose what they think would be most effective against the opponent, this system shows you exactly what you will be facing before the battle even begins.

And the physical/special split couldn't be much less similar to this. This is not, in any way, a gameplay mechanic change. It is only a change of what information is provided, and the player is allowed to choose whether they want to review that information.

Edit: Also, note that making this optional in a simulator does not make the simulator less accurate. By making it easier to enforce player agreements, it makes the simulator a much more convenient way to battle using the same gameplay mechanics, which is the entire point of a simulator.
 
From what I've read, it seems PBR's system is actually very different from this one. Whereas PBR shows both sides many things they might be facing and allows them to choose what they think would be most effective against the opponent, this system shows you exactly what you will be facing before the battle even begins.

And the physical/special split couldn't be much less similar to this. This is not, in any way, a gameplay mechanic change. It is only a change of what information is provided, and the player is allowed to choose whether they want to review that information.

Edit: Also, note that making this optional in a simulator does not make the simulator less accurate. By making it easier to enforce player agreements, it makes the simulator a much more convenient way to battle using the same gameplay mechanics, which is the entire point of a simulator.
What you read is wrong then. BW shows you the same information PBR does. Rather, technically it shows you less because BW doesn't show you what pokemon are shiny.
 
What you read is wrong then. BW shows you the same information PBR does. Rather, technically it shows you less because BW doesn't show you what pokemon are shiny.
Really? That is unfortunate. However, seeing as how PBR is generally not widely used in the first place, this still doesn't provide much evidence that its system is a good one, and, even if it did, it still wouldn't prove that simulators should try to force you to look at the opponent's team.
 
I'm very glad I read this thread, because, at first, I always viewed this change as bad as something that would lower the amount of skill and prediction in competitive battling. Now, however, I see I was wrong and that it is just another change in the way we play Pokemon and that whether we like it or not, it is upon us and we have to accept it.
 
Really? That is unfortunate. However, seeing as how PBR is generally not widely used in the first place, this still doesn't provide much evidence that its system is a good one, and, even if it did, it still wouldn't prove that simulators should try to force you to look at the opponent's team.
It doesn't need to. The reality is that competitive play outside of simulators is going to be predicated on the fact that both players will be aware of each others' teams, by simple virtue of the fact that it has been made an aspect of gameplay in the 5th generation. Simulators should 'force you to look at the opponent's team' because Pokemon now forces you to look at the opponent's team, and the purpose of simulators is ultimately to actually simulate what happens (or can happen) in the game. Restrictions and additions to the game's rules are made on the basis of what is and is not humanly enforceable, and this is not.

The reality is that if Smogon does not enforce the change, it will in no wise remain the internet's premier Pokemon battling academy. The large Wifi community out there is simply going to ignore Smogon's rules, banlists, and suggested movesets, simply because they will have been developed under a metagame that cannot be reproduced for them, and which has no relevance to their own battling experience.
 

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