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How about pairing CBdragon with Magnezone and scarfFlygon? Flygon can revenge quite a bit of nasty set-up pokemon, and can actually clean up once your slow CBdragon has raped most of the opponent's steels/walls.
Magnezone would need to be scarfed to check Lucario, but that would severely detract from his usefulness under TR. Perhaps a mach puncher (Roopushin/Breloom) could fill up that role.
If Roobushin checks Lucario you could potentially run SubZone, given that bar the occasional EQ and Level Ground it can easily sub up in the face of Skarmory, Nattorei, Forretress, Bronzong and Scizor locked into Bullet Punch. Not sure what speed would be ideal, but I'm pretty sure you could still outspeed most non Lucario, Jirachi and Kaburon Steels while still been slow enough to mantain use under Trick Room. Not entirely sure what the ideal EV spread would be either, although the moveset would probably need to be Tbolt/HpFire/Sub/M-Rise.
I'm actually reconsidering the merits of Shubugaro (Bug/Steel snail) in a Trick Room team on account of his typing. He brings some key resistances to a TR team that they might otherwise find difficult to come across.
That's a whopping 41/57 and the figures for Ghost are obviously very similar on account of the similarities in coverage between Dark and Ghost. It should also be noted that Dark and Ghost attacks are commonly accompained by a Fighting attack. If you were to calculate all of the Pokemon with a weakness to Dark + Fighting, the count reaches 50/57. Ghost + Fighting also hits 50/57.
A slightly less worrying, but still noteworthy, 31/57.
As it stands, Shubarugo and Scizor are (imo) the only two Trick Room worthy sweepers who possess resistances to Dark, Ghost and Bug. Shubarugo packs much more immediate power than Scizor thanks to his higher Atk score and Megahorn and, if you're just looking for a Pokemon who can switch into the Dark/Ghost/Bug attacks that threaten your TR users, then Shubarugo's notably better bulk will aid him in that regard.
Since Megahorn and Pursuit are the only moves he learns that are worth a damn you're probably best off just slapping Choice Band on him. I realise that's undesirable for most Trick Room sweepers because it makes them easier to wall and thus wastes TR turns but if something like Skarmory or Gliscor comes in and walls your Megahorn you may as well just switch out to a special sweeper than waste your time trying to wear them down with feeble Rock Smashes or Iron Head. Only the bulkiest of the bulky Bug resists can risk a Choice Band Megahorn...even a 252/220+ Zapdos is 2HKO'd after Stealth Rock.
As it stands, Shubarugo and Scizor are (imo) the only two Trick Room worthy sweepers who possess resistances to Dark, Ghost and Bug. Shubarugo packs much more immediate power than Scizor thanks to his higher Atk score and Megahorn and, if you're just looking for a Pokemon who can switch into the Dark/Ghost/Bug attacks that threaten your TR users, then Shubarugo's notably better bulk will aid him in that regard.
Since Megahorn and Pursuit are the only moves he learns that are worth a damn you're probably best off just slapping Choice Band on him. I realise that's undesirable for most Trick Room sweepers because it makes them easier to wall and thus wastes TR turns but if something like Skarmory or Gliscor comes in and walls your Megahorn you may as well just switch out to a special sweeper than waste your time trying to wear them down with feeble Rock Smashes or Iron Head. Only the bulkiest of the bulky Bug resists can risk a Choice Band Megahorn...even a 252/220+ Zapdos is 2HKO'd after Stealth Rock.
the pig starter resists dark and bug. it also gets better coverage and power with reckless (wildbolt, flare blitz, head smash, and hammer arm) just a ntoe he works well for me sometimes dies too quickly though, so i use expert belt on him.
Here's some tips I've found while using a Trick Room team. (The team itself might come later tonight.)
1.Make sure your Trick Room users have good synergy with each other. I was running Stoned Porygon2 and Dusclops and together, they could set up Trick Room on just about every single Pokemon. LO Gengar was a pain because it could still 2HKO Porygon2 with Focus Blast. 2. Make sure your sweepers are useful when Trick Room is down. You only have 3 turns to sweep, provided the sweeper didn't set it up, and your opponent can stall them out fairly easily by constantly switching/using Protect. This is why I'm not using frail sweepers like Oobemu, they get simply get forced out too easily once Trick Room is down. Zuruzukin, Scizor, and Rankurusu usually have enough bulk to keep sweeping, use a slow U-turn to get out, or set up Trick Room again, respectively. 3. Make sure you have a priority user. Doryuuzu will come in when Trick Room's down and start tearing up your team. As usual, you need to have things that can tank its attacks but that probably won't be enough. Scizor's Bullet Punch was extremely useful at picking off faster Pokemon like Doryuuzu and Gengar, who would pose a lot of problems for the rest of my team. Azumarill and Roopushin can also be good priority users since they have powerful STAB priority attacks and low Speed. 4. Make sure you have a fast Pokemon. While it may seem absurd to use a fast Pokemon on a Trick Room team, Trick Room isn't permanent and you may be up against a sweeper that can outspeed your entire team and OHKO/2HKO them. I was running Latios which kept pressure on my opponent even when Trick Room went down, due to its high Speed and SpAtk. 5. Make sure you know how many turns of Trick Room are left. Don't send Marowak out on the 5th turn. Don't send your set up Pokemon on the third turn and wait two turns to set it back up. Do send out your sweeper on the second or third turn. Do send out a sweeper that can also set up Trick Room on the 4th turn. Do send out you fast sweeper on the 5th turn.
I hope these tips help, and I'll post the actual team I used tonight if I'm allowed.
To add to DDRMaster's tips, take full advantage of the fact you have no reason whatsoever to put any speed EVs on your pokemon (other than any fast ones for when trick room is down). You would be surprised how much longer some sweepers can last with some solid defense EVs. I've also tried heaping them into both offensive stats to create truly fearsome mixed sweepers- risky, but has a high payoff if you can get them in.
One reason I've always loved TR is that it turns things that are normally benefits in normal play into horrible downsides. For example, while TR is in play, your opponent's fast, fearsome, but frail sweepers, normally total terrors (and the reason for the love of priority moves)... become almost useless.
Well I plan on making a new Trick Room team that's better suited to the Dream World metagame and I probably won't be using this team as much anymore. So I don't see any reason not to share it.
At a glance:
Switch in choices by Trick Room turn number:
1. Nothing (You can't set it up and switch at the same time.)
2. Rankurusu, Zuruzukin, Scizor
3. Rankurusu, Zuruzukin, Scizor
4. Rankurusu, Scizor, Latios*
5. Porygon2, Dusclops, Latios
*Only if I'm facing something that outspeeds Latios like Ulgamoth after a Butterfly Dance.
Obviously, I don't have to follow this exactly, but I end up following it about 80% of the time. These are also the best times to bring the certain Pokemon in.
Porygon2 makes a great Trick Room lead due to access to Pre-Evolution Stone and Magic Coat. The former allows it to take any nuetral hit and get Trick Room up. Magic Coat now reflects Taunt and Entry Hazards, which is a great help against Deoxy-S and allow me to get up atleast Stealth Rock against my opponent about one out of every three matches. Between these two things, Porygon2 is all but guarenteed to get Trick Room up immediately.
Recover allows Porygon2 to heal off the damage it takes to set up Trick Room throughout the match and allows it to stall out attacks like Draco Meteor and Super Power. Ice Beam is mainly for taking out Dragons and Shaymin-S. Porygon2 is actually my best counter for both Salamence and Shaymin-S, due to being able to Trace the former's Intimidate and take barely anything from the latter's Air Slash. Tracing Shanderaa and Heatran's Flash Fire can also get it a free switch in and will completely shut them down. However, Porygon2 can't do much back.
The EVs provide maximum Special bulk, which help out immensely when I need it to switch in on powerful Draco Meteors. In fact, Choice Scarf Latios's Draco Meteor will never OHKO, even with a critical hit (unless the crit negates the Pre-Evo Stone boost). Due to the fact that Porygon2's only weakness is Fighting and Fighting-types are usually physically based, I just go to Dusclops for the physical tanking. With the IVs and Nature, Porygon2 reaches 112 Speed, which allows it to outspeed Base 39 Pokemon and below in Trick Room that are using max Speed IVs and a nuetral Nature. Porygon2 reaches 379/324/475 Defenses with the given spread and the Pre-Evolution Stone.
Team Support: Porygon2 can take most Special attacks fairly easily, particularly Ghost Attacks, and is obviously useful for setting up Trick Room. Reflecting things like Dark Void, Taunt, and Stealth Rock back at other leads is a great asset as well.
Weaknesses: Ghost (Porygon2, Zuruzukin, Scizor), Dark (Zuruzukin, Scizor) Trick Room Switch In Opportunities: Turn 5
Dusclops forms the other half of my core and can take physical attacks just as well as Porygon2 takes Special Attacks. Since I'm mainly using this team on Wi-Fi, I can choose what I want to lead with. If it looks like my opponent will lead with a powerful Fighting type, I'll swap out Porygon2 for Dusclops.
Night Shade gives Dusclops a reliable way to damage the opponent and only Normal-types are immune to it. Will-O-Wisp allows Dusclops to cripple any physical attacker that's not Fire-typed or has Guts. Since nothing is completely immune to both Night Shade and Will-O-Wisp, Dusclops can do something to just about every single Pokemon (Clefable won't take Burn damage due to Magic Guard and is immune to Night Shade but it will still have the attack cut if it's physical). Pain Split give Dusclops a form of recovery, although it isn't the best move for the job.
The EVs give Dusclops maximum physical bulk and it reaches 284/591/445 Defenses with the Pre-Evolution Stone. Dusclops is the slowest Pokemon on my team at 49 Speed. This allows it to outspeed any Pokemon with a Base Speed of 7 or higher in Trick Room if it's running max Speed IVs and a nuetral nature.
Team Support: Dusclops takes on most Physical attackers and is my best switch in to things like Luacrio, Scizor, and Hihidaruma. +2 LO Doryuuzu can do a ton of damage to it but it usually chooses to simply attack whatever's out (usually Rankurusu or Latios) which lets it come in on a resisted hit and Burn it.
Weaknesses: Bug (Dusclops, Scizor), Ghost (Porygon2, Zuruzukin, Scizor), Dark (Zuruzukin, Scizor) Trick Room Switch In Opportunities: Turns 2, 3, and 4
This is probably the absolute best Pokemon to have on a Trick Room team. Most Trick Room sweepers only get three turns to sweep because they have to switch in on the second turn. Rankurusu gets 4 turns by setting it up itself. While this may not seem like much, combined with Rankurusu's 125 Base SpAtk and good coverage, it can be very hard for the opponent to force it out without a dedicated Special Wall. Only very rarely does Rankurusu get less than 2 kills in a match, and that's usually because my opponent lets me set up a few Bulk Ups with Zuruzukin.
Psychic is Rankurusu's most powerful STAB move that's still reliable. While Psycho Shock would be better to take out Blissey with, Rankurusu is one of my only ways to beat Roopushin, and can do it easily one on one. If I used Psycho Boost, Rankurusu may not be able to KO it if it's used Bulk Up once or twice. Focus Blast is for Dark and Steel types and Shadow Ball is for Psychics and Ghosts. While Focus Blast's accuracy has made me lose Rankurusu in a few battles, it can afford to take a chance due to its bulk. In fact, it can switch in on Roopushin's Payback (since it no longer doubles in power when you switch in), take another one as it sets up Trick Room, and KO it with Psychic.
At first I thought it would be best to go with Regeneration on Rankurusu so it could easily come in, set up Trick Room, and get out. But once I realised that Magic Guard allows it to use Life Orb for free along with its good movepool, I knew that would be a much better choice. Rankurusu can often go the entire match without losing more than half its health, even if my opponent has set up Sandstorm and a few layers of entry hazards. It's especially useful when my opponent Paralyzes Rankurusu, since it brings it down to 14 Spe and Magic Guard prevents it from being fully Paralyzed. For comparison, Shuckle's minimum Speed at Level 100 is 13.
The EVs and Nature provide Rankurusu with maximum SpAtk and equal Defenses. In fact, due to Rankurusu's high HP, it's actually better to place EVs in Def before maxing out HP for overall bulk. The IVs and Nature give it 58 Speed, which allows it to outrun all Pokemon with a Base Speed of 12 or higher when Trick Room's up.
Team Support: As the main Trick Room sweeper of this team, it mostly gives support by tearing apart the opponent's team. It's also my best check (I think it might actually be a counter) to Roopushin, which gives the rest of my team trouble.
~ Bulk Up
~ Drain Punch
~ Crunch
~ Rest (used to be Dragon Tail which I found out was pretty much completely useless)
Weaknesses: Fighting (Dusclops, Rankurusu, Latios), Flying (None, but Dusclops can take Physical ones and Porygon2 can take Special ones) Trick Room Switch In Opportunities: Turns 2 and 3
Anyone who's used a set like this knows it's hard to take down without Trick Room support. While Trick Room doesn't help Zuruzukin as much as Rankurusu and Scizor, it does give it a safety net when setting up. Since I can usually get a Bulk Up as my opponent switches out and another one now that I outspeed my opponent, I can get it to 532 Def before it has to take my opponent's attack (likely a STAB Fighting move).
Drain Punch and Crunch both benifit from STAB and give Zuruzukin nearly perfect coverage. I chose Crunch over Payback because it's significantly more powerful in Trick Room and is useful for taking out things like Burungeru before it has a chance to use Recover. Rest and Shed Skin are what really makes this set. With them, Zuruzukin can easily recover its HP and cure itself of status at the same time. Shed Skin gives you a 51% chance to wake up early, but even if you do stay asleep for the full time, Zuruzukin will still usually survive if it has atleast 2 Bulk Ups.
I think the EVs are fairly standard, which gives Zuruzukin its last stat jump in SpDef and puts the remaining EVs in Atk. With all this Special bulk, Zuruzukin can take just about anything after one or two Bulk Ups and constantly heal its HP back with Drain Punch.
Team Support: I usually send in Zuruzukin against Tyranitar, Blissey, and Bulky Waters, due to their high HP and the fact that Zuruzukin doesn't care much about their status. Zuruzukin takes both of Tyranitar's STABs with ease and mixed versions can't do much with their Special attacks. As for Blissey and the Bulky Waters, there high HP also makes them prime targets for Drain Punch. Burungeru gets hit with Crunch instead.
~ Bullet Punch
~ U-turn
~ Superpower
~ Night Slash/Roost
Weaknesses: Fire (Latios, Dusclops and Porygon2 can take them as well) Trick Room Switch In Opportunities: Turns 2, 3, and 4
While Scizor isn't the slowest Pokemon around, it's not exactly fast either with that Base 65 Speed. In fact, by running 0 IVs and a hindering Nature, Scizor reaches 121 Speed, which allows it to outrun Base 45 Pokemon and up with a nuetral Nature as well standard Relaxed Swampert in Trick Room. STAB Technician Bullet Punch and STAB U-turn are what really makes Scizor good on a Trick Room team. Since most Pokemon are going to be extremely slow, it's important to have something that can land an attack no matter how fast your opponent is.
U-turn solves two other problems that can come up in a Trick Room team. The first is that your opponent will often try to stall out the Trick Room turns by constantly switching. U-turn allows you to hit whatever comes in and keep momentum up, as well as not wasting a turn of Trick Room should Scizor become walled. Another problem that can come up is that you might not have any Pokemon that can switch in on the 4th turn of Trick Room. With only 1 turn remaining, you don't want to switch a sweeper in because you won't be able to do much in one turn, you don't want to switch your set up Pokemon in because your opponent will just switch in a counter to it as Trick Room goes down, and you can't send in your fast Pokemon becasue it will be outsped. Scizor uses this turn well to get in a little extra damage by using U-turn and potentially getting your set up Pokemon in for free. Alternatively, you could use another move on the 5th turn and have a slow U-turn after that to get one of your set up Pokemon in for free.
The remaining two attacks are for coverage. I find Super Power more useful than Brick Break because Scizor is meant to be a hit and run attacker and the extra power is useful for it. I originally had Roost in the last slot but I only used it once so I replaced it with Night Slash for coverage against Ghosts.
Team Support: Scizor can take out fast, troublesome Pokemon out with Bullet Punch like Gengar and Deoxys-A. It also works well as a pivot and works well in the 5th turn of Trick Room. The fact that it resists Bug, Ghost, and Dark attacks is also welcome. Getting perfect synergy with Latios doesn't hurt either.
Weaknesses: Ice (Scizor), Dragon (Scizor, I usually go to Porygon2 or Dusclops, though), Bug (Dusclops, Scizor), Ghost (Porygon2, Zuruzukin, Scizor), Dark (Zuruzukin, Scizor) Trick Room Switch In Opportunities: Turns 4* and 5
*Only under rare circumstances.
You might think I'm crazy for using something as fast as Latios on a Trick Room team, but the thing is, Trick Room won't be up all the time. Pokemon with average to above average Speed might give you team a hard time since they can outspeed all of your sweepers and hit them hard. Latios allows me to continue sweeping once Trick Room goes down and keeps pressure on my opponent. Quite often, I won't have an opportunity to set up Trick Room, and Latios allows me to sweep without needed it.
The moves are fairly self explanitory. Dragon Pulse is for STAB and Surf gets nearly perfect coverage allongside it. Hidden Power Fire is mainly for Nattorei as it's a major nuiscence to my team and I usually switch right out of Scizor. Nattorei was particularly a problem when I ran Thunderbolt instead, as it completely walled Latios. Psycho Shock is mainly for Blissey/Chansey as it will hit it on its much lower Def stat. Although, it does have a few other uses.
The EVs are pretty standard and allows Latios to outspeed any Aianto, even with the Speed drop from HP Fire. With Latios's high SpAtk and Life Orb, it can be extremely difficult to wall, and my opponent usually has to revenge kill it.
Team Support: Latios's main use is sweeping and keeping the pressure up on my opponent when Trick Room goes down. I usually bring it in on the 5th turn to force my opponent to go from being faced with one problem Pokemon to a completely different one. Surprisingly, Latios can also be used in Trick Room. One particular strategy I like to use is set up Trick Room with Dusclops as Ulgamoth Butterfly Dances (it usually comes in on Will-O-Wisp) and send in Latios on a predicted Fire Dance. Latios now outspeeds thanks to Trick Room and can OHKO it with Psycho Shock.
(I know I'm double posting, but my last post was yesterday.)
I decided to try and make an Uber Trick Room team and it's going rather well. Wobbuffet is actually doing wonders on my team. Due to Trick Room, Encore, Shadow Tag, and its low Speed, you can bring it in on any resisted hit, Encore it, and CounterCoat for the KO. Most of the time when I did that, Wobbuffet still had just under half its health left, so it could often come back in and Ecore something else.
If Wobbuffet came in on a set up move, I could simply Encore that and go to either Zekrom or Dialga and either force them out or get the KO. You don't even have to use slow Pokemon with this strategy, as Trick Room goes down one turn after the Pokemon comes in (and the opponent will still be locked into their set up move for that turn). The reason this works better than Erufuun is because the opponent knows Encore is coming if it gets in on a set up and will simply switch out, making Encore useless. Shadow Tag forces the opponent to stay in until your other Pokemon is on the field.
I tried this strategy in OU as well but the results weren't as promising as when I used it in Ubers. I have a feeling it would work better with Contrarian SubSeed Jalorda, since it gets a free Substitute as the opponent is either locked into their set up move or forced out and atleast put a dent in just about everything, if not 2HKO it with Leaf Storm.
Interesting team DDRMaster, not what I expected at all.
Magic Coat Porygon2 is especially interesting because it attempts to rectify one of the main things that was bugging me when constructing a TR team and that was to fit in entry hazards without using a suboptimal Pokemon/moveset or losing momentum. Of course, it's not a guaranteed success but there's no other way for you to fit Stealth Rock on your team without losing something valuable so kudos on that. A half-decent player will attempt to counter Trick Room by switching around to immunities/resists so entry hazards are important in limiting that strategy.
Rankurusu does just seem as though he was created with Trick Room in mind. He's arguably the best offensive user of the move and, thanks to Magic Guard and Recover, he can be used as one of the better defensive users of the move too.
I admit, I did expect a bit more of an offensive presence. It seems as though Rankurusu is the only one who truly thrives under Trick Room as nothing else really has sufficient power and coverage. As a result, it seems as though you'd just auto-lose to heavy stall but I hear that barely even exists right now so it might not be that big of a deal.
The reason this works better than Erufuun is because the opponent knows Encore is coming if it gets in on a set up and will simply switch out, making Encore useless.
Yeah, that is a pain and it's why I love U-turn on Erufuun so much. If you come in on a Dragon Dance or something and you're feeling confident you can hit U-turn (or even Trick Room) instead of Encore to maintain momentum as the foe switches out. Of course, if you guess wrong the results could be disastrous...
Trick Room is pretty freaking amazing in Gen5, with all the ridiculously overpowered and fast sweepers running about TR flips everything around and turns them into utter liabilities.
I've found also and wholly agree Magic Coat on your TR lead is almost a requirement it'll save you tripping up straight off the mark, though I don't use Porygon2 nor do I feel I need to.
Since Megahorn and Pursuit are the only moves he learns that are worth a damn you're probably best off just slapping Choice Band on him. I realise that's undesirable for most Trick Room sweepers because it makes them easier to wall and thus wastes TR turns
Actually I've been trying out Shubarago as my bug/steel of choice on my TR team ever since your comments in the other thread with CB.
I have to say its been quite successful. I much prefer him to Scizor simply because as ironic as it seems Scizor doesn't have the power I need and with Shubarago's horrendous speed hes simply going to be fastest even against other dedicated TR teams.
CB Shubarago is frighteningly powerful to the point where it can actually barely 2HKO a max HP Roobushin (definite 2HKO when Swarm kicks in) with a resisted Megahorn. Lets put this into perspective, we're talking about a Pokemon with 414HP and 226 defenses higher than even the bulkiest of Garchomps and WITH resistance.
I've mainly EV'd it for max attack but also mainly s.def/HP specifically because I hate D-Meteor Latios/Sazandora and Shubarago can send them both packing. As for moveset its pretty much Aerial Ace/Pursuit/Megahorn/Iron Head though Pursuit often feels like pure filler as its usually easier to maul the switch in with Megahorn, only Aerial Ace seems to see regular usuage. Life Orb seems a possibility sometimes but I really havent found many problems yet as the only true counter (Skarmory) couldn't care less what I use.
For Stealth Rocks setup I've been mainly using Gigaith with Custap berry since he can attempt sweeps and setup SR. Although I've refrained from using Explosion instead opting for Heavy Bomber as an experiment. I've got mixed views on that but Explosion honestly seems a waste of the behemoth to me.
Mainly because I usually end up using the Custap activation to throw out SR, delaying the Rocks usually catches people off guard as they expect you to throw em out pronto.
but if something like Skarmory or Gliscor comes in and walls your Megahorn you may as well just switch out to a special sweeper than waste your time trying to wear them down with feeble Rock Smashes or Iron Head.
To solve that problem I've pretty much been using a Shiburudon with Coil/Dragon Tail/Flamethrower/Thunder who is also a nice abuser of TR. Although Thunder + Coil is slightly cumbersome and slow wasting TR turns the extra power is often welcomed.
It also has the merit of absolutely mauling Burukeru + Nattorei who are the dominant defensive duo currently and disallowing any other attempts to wall setup with Dragon Tail. I find hes one of these few that can function well with and without TR.
Perhaps not as capable as Porygon 2, but Espeon on Xatu are worth considering since not only can they set up Trick Room but also have Magic Mirror to reflect back Taunt and such which gives them the edge over anti-leads and such. They can also set up dual-screens or in Espeon's case Baton Pass if need be.
Problem with those two is they're both quite fast, fragile and TR usually backfires on them, Espeon is simply going to be trapped and killed since it can't BP after the TR same for Xatu with U-Turn. They're also both not terribly offensive which is the trademark of TR teams, being able to use normally completely unfeasible but disgustingly powerful and bulky setups.
i have a question. for a trick room team i always end up getting taunted. idk if i should use a darkrai after i get taunted. i was planning after i get taunted to switch into darkrai and do a quick dark void and switch back to my trick roomer. i want to know if this could actually work.
i have a question. for a trick room team i always end up getting taunted. idk if i should use a darkrai after i get taunted. i was planning after i get taunted to switch into darkrai and do a quick dark void and switch back to my trick roomer. i want to know if this could actually work.
It could work and that would make Darkrai your fast Pokemon that would keep pressure up on your opponent. There's always Magic Coat to bounce back Taunt as well and plenty of Trick Room users get Magic Coat.
Espeon holding Iron Ball/Macho Brace, 0 IVs/EVs, and a negative nature does reach 101 Speed in Trick Room. While it's quite fast for a Trick Room Pokemon, it would allow Espeon to out speed the likes of most Tyranitar switching in, and escape via Baton Pass.
Speaking of Iron Ball/Macho Brace, I'm surprised it is not mentioned more. I imagine Trick Room would love to benefit from sweepers a bit out of the effective speed range, and Iron Ball would aid that effort, expanding the pool of Pokemon to pick from.
(I know I'm double posting, but my last post was yesterday.)
I decided to try and make an Uber Trick Room team and it's going rather well. Wobbuffet is actually doing wonders on my team. Due to Trick Room, Encore, Shadow Tag, and its low Speed, you can bring it in on any resisted hit, Encore it, and CounterCoat for the KO. Most of the time when I did that, Wobbuffet still had just under half its health left, so it could often come back in and Ecore something else.
If Wobbuffet came in on a set up move, I could simply Encore that and go to either Zekrom or Dialga and either force them out or get the KO. You don't even have to use slow Pokemon with this strategy, as Trick Room goes down one turn after the Pokemon comes in (and the opponent will still be locked into their set up move for that turn). The reason this works better than Erufuun is because the opponent knows Encore is coming if it gets in on a set up and will simply switch out, making Encore useless. Shadow Tag forces the opponent to stay in until your other Pokemon is on the field.
I tried this strategy in OU as well but the results weren't as promising as when I used it in Ubers. I have a feeling it would work better with Contrarian SubSeed Jalorda, since it gets a free Substitute as the opponent is either locked into their set up move or forced out and atleast put a dent in just about everything, if not 2HKO it with Leaf Storm.
I love Trick Room in Ubers, mainly because Palkia and Dialga are so damn good with it. Palkia is an absolutely terrifying mixed attacker and his resists give him some nice opportunities to set up, particularly on Kyogre. Dialga is easily the best setter in the game thanks to his amazing typing and movepool.
A pokemon I've found to work exceptionally well is Ho-oh, who can just spam Brave Bird until it dies, causing massive damage and usually getting Palkia, Bronzong, or Dialga in for free.
Wobb is also pretty good for TR, but I think you're using him wrong. Wobb's goal should be to set-up free Trick Rooms through immunities or resistances, not trap and kill. TR sweepers generally have much more firepower at their disposal than normal sweepers, so it's not like you need Wobb in order to kill stuff. Also saying that Wobb on the opposing team is the bane of Trick Room teams DX.
(19:03:29) +RankingBot: Your rank in Dream World is 69/4978!
This is my current peak with a TR team.
While this is Dream World the team I am using is only using two pokemon with Dream World Abilities and both can easily use a different Ability.
Right now from recent experience (i.e the last few games I just had) using Trick Room right away is not always the best move to do. I would begin by getting the advantage then using Trick Room once I have the advantage to ease prediction. Trick Room uses a lot of strategy and often requires sacrificing pokemon at certain times. Only major problem I have with my team is that I am a bit Shanendera weak due to it being able to stop my pokemon from setting up Trick Room if it predicts correctly, but after it is revealed it is not too difficult to play around, especially if you've done any damage to it (a +2 Bullet Punch from Scizor does around 60% I believe, probably more). Trick Room is damage their pokemon and ease prediction, then send out your main TR pokemon after setting up TR late game and play accordingly. If I begin to do much worse now or the opposite, much better, I will reveal my team.
I admit, I did expect a bit more of an offensive presence. It seems as though Rankurusu is the only one who truly thrives under Trick Room as nothing else really has sufficient power and coverage. As a result, it seems as though you'd just auto-lose to heavy stall but I hear that barely even exists right now so it might not be that big of a deal.
This is a problem I've been having today. One of the first teams I faced today was a stall team with a Hippowdon lead. It took forever (~50 turns?) to take down, and I only managed to take it down because Rank's grass knot got a critical hit. The rest of the team was also pretty difficult to deal with, but the Nat+Burung core wasn't too hard to deal with. The most entertaining part of the match was porygon2 killing a shandera with ice beam. The shandera was locked into flamethrower which wasn't doing much to shandera, and I managed to freeze shandera twice. How a ghost on fire freezes I don't know, but it did and I killed it. I was testing out DDRMaster's set over the boltbeam+TR+Recover set I had been using - it seems to work pretty well.
Bulky pokemon are especially a problem when they start setting up, as that makes them harder to kill and I don't currently have anything to phaze them. I got destroyed by a CM Suicune team that I just didn't have the physical power to dent once it got a CM up and TR went down. There have been a couple of other times where things started setting up and they were hard to get out, especially when they start doing it when TR goes down, since it's hard to get it back up when they can OHKO the TR setup-ers and Latias can't take them down. Granted, part of this is poor playing on my part, but I'm considering putting something to phase on the team.
The other thing I've been trying out is Shandera to see how it fares in TR. So far... not sure. Being able to dump EVs into HP (and a little into defenses) instead of speed is nice (it managed to survive a dark pulse from a darkrai to KO back with fire blast to save me from being shutout 6-0 - Darkrai is not nice to TR teams.). Although ST Shandera is pretty useful, I think I need to find a replacement for pain split on it. I'm just not getting that many useful opportunities to use it. I also have to wonder if I really need it with Rank on the team. Shandera hasn't been dead weight, but I'm wondering if I could find something more useful to fill the team slot. (Even though I'd like to find a nice niche for shandera outside of scarf revenge killing).
Yeah, Hippowdon is probably the biggest Defensive threat to my team. However, if it's not running Roar, I can set up fairly easily on it with Zuruzukin. Stall overall wasn't a huge problem for me since Rankurusu was immune to passive damage, Zuruzukin could break BurunNatt cores, and Latios was a fair wall breaker.
What are you running on Shanderaa? Off the top of my head, Fire Blast/Shadow Ball/HP Fighting/Energy Ball or Trick Room should work pretty well.
This is a problem I've been having today. One of the first teams I faced today was a stall team with a Hippowdon lead. It took forever (~50 turns?) to take down, and I only managed to take it down because Rank's grass knot got a critical hit.
I'd agree with this too, Hippowdon is one of the worst possible opponents to run into with a Trick Room team. His natural bulk is just ridiculous and even smacking him with full on Power whips/Energy Balls/Grass Knots just won't bring him down as he simply phazes and Slacks off. Its frustrating too since I've found most TR recipients and TR setups like Dusknor/clops just get outstalled by the Hippo.
When you're following the 3 turns of TR theres simply not enough time to setup buffs too without making yourself vulnerable if they stall out those turns. I'm actually considering trying out more mixed sets as I've clearly had success with Shiburudon as a stall breaker just so I have a backup.
Bulky pokemon are especially a problem when they start setting up, as that makes them harder to kill and I don't currently have anything to phaze them. I got destroyed by a CM Suicune team that I just didn't have the physical power to dent once it got a CM up and TR went down.
I've actually had success running Dragon Tail on Shiburudon to stop this kind of situation as without more than 1 CM Suicune simply isn't sticking around and really the threat of impending electrocution is enough to make him attempt the extra CM.
Speaking of Iron Ball/Macho Brace, I'm surprised it is not mentioned more. I imagine Trick Room would love to benefit from sweepers a bit out of the effective speed range, and Iron Ball would aid that effort, expanding the pool of Pokemon to pick from.
I think the issue here is that most of the time you forfeit the damage boosting items just for that extra speed which doesn't seem wise in a TR team, especially when you can run something plain fast for when you can't get TR up. Most of the time the challenge is getting a opportunity to start TR and somehow keeping it going.
Bulky pokemon are especially a problem when they start setting up, as that makes them harder to kill and I don't currently have anything to phaze them.
This is why I've been advocating the use of Trick Room Erufuun since the last page. No other Trick Room users can stop set-up attempts with the same level of efficiency. She's also surprisingly bulky when you're able to use all 510 EVs and nature defensively. Has anybody tried her yet?
This is a problem I've been having today. One of the first teams I faced today was a stall team with a Hippowdon lead. It took forever (~50 turns?) to take down, and I only managed to take it down because Rank's grass knot got a critical hit.
383 SpA LO GK vs 252/0 Hippowdon = 113% - 133%
383 SpA LO GK vs 252/88 Hippowdon = 100% - 119%
383 SpA LO GK vs 252/252+ Hippowdon = 77% - 90%
I really don't see how any variant managed to last 50~ turns against Rankurusu. Stockpile?
Slowbro/King make good Hippowdon counters and are both great users of Trick Room even moreso with their new DW Regeneration trait. Slowking can even use Nasty Plot and Trick Room together to attempt a sweep. Or maybe you could fit Toxic on one of your TR users somewhere? A Max SpA LO Shibirudon can OHKO even the 252/88 variants with Grass Knot and being immune to Earthquake is great too.
I'm actually considering trying out more mixed sets as I've clearly had success with Shiburudon as a stall breaker just so I have a backup.
Siburudon is sexy tbqh. I'm looking forward to using Thunderbolt/Flamethrower/Grass Knot/U-turn or Volt Change. Thunderbolt/Flamethrower destroy the Burengeru/Natorei core and Grass Knot fucks with Ground types like Hippowdon. U-turn/Volt Change is an excellent move in general, especially on Trick Room teams. My main concern with going too far down the mixed road is that he just can't handle Blissey that well. Absolute maximum Atk Life Orb Wild Bolt does an average of 52% to max/max Blissey. You'll then lose 126 HP in recoil from the attack, and 30~ HP from the Life Orb (depending on HP EVs). My other problem with going mixed is that it'll compromise his great defensive potential. 85/80/80 defenses with no weaknesses is freakin' awesome so I wanna be able to give some EV attention to those rather than maxing Atk and SpA. Just my thoughts though, there's certainly some great potential in Shiburudon so try out whatever you please and lemme know what works. ^_^
Yep. Hippowdown managed to get three stockpiles off while I was trying to kill it, making it very hard to take down. I don't quite remember how it all went down. I think it got the first stockpile off against porygon2 while I was trying to make sure it didn't get stealth rocks up, and then maybe another on the switch into Rank, and it was too late. (or maybe I was dumb and didn't switch to Rank after the first stockpile and magic coated again to see if he'd use stealth rocks and he stockpiled twice on porygon2).
I was going with fire blast/shadow ball/pain split/trick room. TR because I try to have as many pokemon able to start up trick room as I can, and pain split to try and heal off damage in case stealth rocks got up, in order to extend its longevity, but I rarely end up using it. I didn't opt for HP fighting because with zero speed IVs it's only 64 base power, but I might consider trying it again in lieu of pain split.
