Mario With Lasers
Self-proclaimed NERFED king
Does even Nintendo banning Soul Dew in their Battle Facilities and official tournaments, even when Ubers are allowed, mean anything to this debate?
Nope, since they often ban things which are event only. It has no relevance on its power or on Smogon policy.Does even Nintendo banning Soul Dew in their Battle Facilities and official tournaments, even when Ubers are allowed, mean anything to this debate?
Percentages are preferable to the actual numbers.Rankurusu should be banned.
And here's why:
Many of you will remember a thread by DougjustDoug. It was entitled, "Charateristics of a Desirable Pokemon Metagame", and in it, people attempted to answer the question of what kind of metagame we wanted to create. The second point on that list is as follows:
Quote:
Variety
The metagame should have the widest possible variety of playing options and strategies that are viable and competitive for knowledgeable players.
Now let me explain how this relates to the banning of Rankurusu. As most of you will no doubt know, Rankurusu is available with the ability Magic Guard. This ability makes it immune to all forms of passive damage: it must be taken out by direct attacks. But how does this relate to the banning of Rankurusu?
One of the main playstyles in copetitive Pokemon is Stall. Heavy Stall, the main subfacet of this, is the intention to eliminate all of your opponents Pokemon using various forms of passive damage. Whether damaging weather, Entry Hazards or Status, eventually, the enemy team succumbs to the conditions and is defeated. But Rankurusu makes this entire playstyle totally unviable. Let's start with the obvious. Magic Guard means it is unkillable using passive damage. However, there is another Pokemon with access to Magic Guard: Clefable. Surely then, Clefable should also be banned?
The problem with this mentality is that although Clefable is immune to passive damage, there is little else it can try and do. Disregarding Magic Guard, it is almost completely outclassed by Blissey and Chansey as a defensive Pokemon, and as an Offensive Pokemon, there are many better options. Compare thier base Defenses:
Clefable: 95/73/90
Rankurusu: 110/75/85
As we can see, Rankurusu is clearly superior in Defense, and slightly superior in Special Defense. Now lets see how they individually deal with commonly seen 5th generation Pokemon:
To start with, we'll look at Roobushin. The standard Bulk Up set, which is becoming very common in the 5th generation metgame due to it's ability to counter many top threats.
+2 0 Atk. Roobushin Payback Vs. 252/252 Rankurusu - (124-146)+1 0 Satk Rankurusu Psychic in Return - (330-390)
+2 0 Atk. Roobushin Drain Punch Vs. 252/252 Clefable - (380-450)
Clefable is generally unable to hit Roobushin in return.
As we can see from these calculations, even a +2 Super Effective attack coming off a powerful pokemon barely scratches Rankurusu, while it deals heavy damage in return. I have chosen Roobushin since it is sometimes seen on stall teams as a counter and utility check.
Another offensive pokemon seen on stall teams is Tyranitar. I'll assume a fairly bulky spread with 80 Atk Ev's - this is still Stall after all.
Tyranitar Crunch Vs. 252/252 Rankurusu - (224-266)
+1 Focus Blast in return - (420-496)
Tyranitar Stone Edge Vs. Clefable - (144-169)
As we can see, Rankurusu takes heavy damage from the Crunch but is not Ko'd, and rips Tyranitar apart in return. While Stone Edge does not do huge damage to Clefable, all it is really able to do in return is Thunder Wave, which can be easily dealt with by a cleric.
A final Point I would like to make is that on it's own, Clefable cannot beat stall. It gets Softboiled, but it's only real boosting move is Belly Drum, which is very risky and forces it to run a Physical set, meaning Desukan can easily remove Magic Guard and allow Clefable to be killed by passive damage. On the other hand, once stall is unable to force Rankurusu out with Roar, it will often sweep through the team, forcing the stall player to PP stall it if he or she wants to have any hope of beating it. Due to the decent amount of PP Rankurusu usually finds available, this is very tedious and difficult. Clefable can also be crippled by a Burn, whereas the only status which worries the Psychic Type is sleep, and a Heavy Stall Team has no real way to capitalise on the free turns it gets in this manner.
So to conclude, (or just as a tl;dr point) I believe Rankurusu should be Banned because it's ability allows it to remove Heavy Stall as a viable playstyle, thereby infracting the second point of DougjustDoug's "Characteristics of a Desirable Pokemon Metagame".
FastFlygon
You have it all wrong; I'm not making any hypothetical claims about Darkrai with or without Void, I'm dismissing your test on the idea of it being fundamentally counterproductive. That's not a question we should be asking ourselves to begin with, frankly, because it takes us to deeper level of balancing that we as players should not tread: weakening the Ubers. The process you're suggesting is entirely different from the one in which we're engaged now, which is to get rid of singular culprits.As I said to UltiMario, I'm not restricting anything in Doubles since Doubles should be using a different ruleset to OU. Also, of course Darkrai is the problem, but that's because, as I've said on numerous occasions, a move is only as good as its users. Dark Void is in the movepool of a pokemon designed to abuse it, making it more dangerous than Spore. You can't only look at the numerical stats of a move when deciding its brokenness; you must look at which pokemon get the move. Also, you claim that I'm making claims on a 'purely hypothetical basis', when in fact it is you who is guilty of this. I am calling for a test to find out whether or not my hypothesis is correct, while you are dismissing said test based on hypothetical knowledge.
Philip7086 said:You may not nominate an ability + Pokemon combo.
No, because just because Rankurusu does well against stall teams doesn't mean it's broken. Heavy stall is still a viable strategy, in fact with team preview it's arguably one of the more viable strategies going. All stall teams have to consider the likes of Rankurusu who can seriously hurt it's chances.Rankurusu should be banned.
And here's why:
Many of you will remember a thread by DougjustDoug. It was entitled, "Charateristics of a Desirable Pokemon Metagame", and in it, people attempted to answer the question of what kind of metagame we wanted to create. The second point on that list is as follows:
Quote:
Variety
The metagame should have the widest possible variety of playing options and strategies that are viable and competitive for knowledgeable players.
Now let me explain how this relates to the banning of Rankurusu. As most of you will no doubt know, Rankurusu is available with the ability Magic Guard. This ability makes it immune to all forms of passive damage: it must be taken out by direct attacks. But how does this relate to the banning of Rankurusu?
One of the main playstyles in copetitive Pokemon is Stall. Heavy Stall, the main subfacet of this, is the intention to eliminate all of your opponents Pokemon using various forms of passive damage. Whether damaging weather, Entry Hazards or Status, eventually, the enemy team succumbs to the conditions and is defeated. But Rankurusu makes this entire playstyle totally unviable. Let's start with the obvious. Magic Guard means it is unkillable using passive damage. However, there is another Pokemon with access to Magic Guard: Clefable. Surely then, Clefable should also be banned?
The problem with this mentality is that although Clefable is immune to passive damage, there is little else it can try and do. Disregarding Magic Guard, it is almost completely outclassed by Blissey and Chansey as a defensive Pokemon, and as an Offensive Pokemon, there are many better options. Compare thier base Defenses:
Clefable: 95/73/90
Rankurusu: 110/75/85
As we can see, Rankurusu is clearly superior in Defense, and slightly superior in Special Defense. Now lets see how they individually deal with commonly seen 5th generation Pokemon:
To start with, we'll look at Roobushin. The standard Bulk Up set, which is becoming very common in the 5th generation metgame due to it's ability to counter many top threats.
+2 0 Atk. Roobushin Payback Vs. 252/252 Rankurusu - (124-146)+1 0 Satk Rankurusu Psychic in Return - (330-390)
+2 0 Atk. Roobushin Drain Punch Vs. 252/252 Clefable - (380-450)
Clefable is generally unable to hit Roobushin in return.
As we can see from these calculations, even a +2 Super Effective attack coming off a powerful pokemon barely scratches Rankurusu, while it deals heavy damage in return. I have chosen Roobushin since it is sometimes seen on stall teams as a counter and utility check.
Another offensive pokemon seen on stall teams is Tyranitar. I'll assume a fairly bulky spread with 80 Atk Ev's - this is still Stall after all.
Tyranitar Crunch Vs. 252/252 Rankurusu - (224-266)
+1 Focus Blast in return - (420-496)
Tyranitar Stone Edge Vs. Clefable - (144-169)
As we can see, Rankurusu takes heavy damage from the Crunch but is not Ko'd, and rips Tyranitar apart in return. While Stone Edge does not do huge damage to Clefable, all it is really able to do in return is Thunder Wave, which can be easily dealt with by a cleric.
A final Point I would like to make is that on it's own, Clefable cannot beat stall. It gets Softboiled, but it's only real boosting move is Belly Drum, which is very risky and forces it to run a Physical set, meaning Desukan can easily remove Magic Guard and allow Clefable to be killed by passive damage. On the other hand, once stall is unable to force Rankurusu out with Roar, it will often sweep through the team, forcing the stall player to PP stall it if he or she wants to have any hope of beating it. Due to the decent amount of PP Rankurusu usually finds available, this is very tedious and difficult. Clefable can also be crippled by a Burn, whereas the only status which worries the Psychic Type is sleep, and a Heavy Stall Team has no real way to capitalise on the free turns it gets in this manner.
So to conclude, (or just as a tl;dr point) I believe Rankurusu should be Banned because it's ability allows it to remove Heavy Stall as a viable playstyle, thereby infracting the second point of DougjustDoug's "Characteristics of a Desirable Pokemon Metagame".
FastFlygon
Do you have no offensive moves on your team? It's defenses aren't that difficult to break.Beyond PP stalling it, I can't beat it.
Rankurusu is innocent i tell you. he really isnt that broken in comparison to othersRankurusu should be banned.
And here's why:
Many of you will remember a thread by DougjustDoug. It was entitled, "Charateristics of a Desirable Pokemon Metagame", and in it, people attempted to answer the question of what kind of metagame we wanted to create. The second point on that list is as follows:
Quote:
Variety
The metagame should have the widest possible variety of playing options and strategies that are viable and competitive for knowledgeable players.
Now let me explain how this relates to the banning of Rankurusu. As most of you will no doubt know, Rankurusu is available with the ability Magic Guard. This ability makes it immune to all forms of passive damage: it must be taken out by direct attacks. But how does this relate to the banning of Rankurusu?
One of the main playstyles in copetitive Pokemon is Stall. Heavy Stall, the main subfacet of this, is the intention to eliminate all of your opponents Pokemon using various forms of passive damage. Whether damaging weather, Entry Hazards or Status, eventually, the enemy team succumbs to the conditions and is defeated. But Rankurusu makes this entire playstyle totally unviable. Let's start with the obvious. Magic Guard means it is unkillable using passive damage. However, there is another Pokemon with access to Magic Guard: Clefable. Surely then, Clefable should also be banned?
The problem with this mentality is that although Clefable is immune to passive damage, there is little else it can try and do. Disregarding Magic Guard, it is almost completely outclassed by Blissey and Chansey as a defensive Pokemon, and as an Offensive Pokemon, there are many better options. Compare thier base Defenses:
Clefable: 95/73/90
Rankurusu: 110/75/85
As we can see, Rankurusu is clearly superior in Defense, and slightly superior in Special Defense. Now lets see how they individually deal with commonly seen 5th generation Pokemon:
To start with, we'll look at Roobushin. The standard Bulk Up set, which is becoming very common in the 5th generation metgame due to it's ability to counter many top threats.
+2 0 Atk. Roobushin Payback Vs. 252/252 Rankurusu - (124-146)+1 0 Satk Rankurusu Psychic in Return - (330-390)
+2 0 Atk. Roobushin Drain Punch Vs. 252/252 Clefable - (380-450)
Clefable is generally unable to hit Roobushin in return.
As we can see from these calculations, even a +2 Super Effective attack coming off a powerful pokemon barely scratches Rankurusu, while it deals heavy damage in return. I have chosen Roobushin since it is sometimes seen on stall teams as a counter and utility check.
Another offensive pokemon seen on stall teams is Tyranitar. I'll assume a fairly bulky spread with 80 Atk Ev's - this is still Stall after all.
Tyranitar Crunch Vs. 252/252 Rankurusu - (224-266)
+1 Focus Blast in return - (420-496)
Tyranitar Stone Edge Vs. Clefable - (144-169)
As we can see, Rankurusu takes heavy damage from the Crunch but is not Ko'd, and rips Tyranitar apart in return. While Stone Edge does not do huge damage to Clefable, all it is really able to do in return is Thunder Wave, which can be easily dealt with by a cleric.
A final Point I would like to make is that on it's own, Clefable cannot beat stall. It gets Softboiled, but it's only real boosting move is Belly Drum, which is very risky and forces it to run a Physical set, meaning Desukan can easily remove Magic Guard and allow Clefable to be killed by passive damage. On the other hand, once stall is unable to force Rankurusu out with Roar, it will often sweep through the team, forcing the stall player to PP stall it if he or she wants to have any hope of beating it. Due to the decent amount of PP Rankurusu usually finds available, this is very tedious and difficult. Clefable can also be crippled by a Burn, whereas the only status which worries the Psychic Type is sleep, and a Heavy Stall Team has no real way to capitalise on the free turns it gets in this manner.
So to conclude, (or just as a tl;dr point) I believe Rankurusu should be Banned because it's ability allows it to remove Heavy Stall as a viable playstyle, thereby infracting the second point of DougjustDoug's "Characteristics of a Desirable Pokemon Metagame".
FastFlygon
Heracross@Choice Scarf (252) Megahorn vs Rankurusu (252/252 EVs, +Nature): 85.3 ~ 100.9% (362 ~ 428 HP)cosmicexplorer said:Do you have no offensive moves on your team? It's defenses aren't that difficult to break.
Yep. the problem is if people nitpick and say that it is no longer "heavy" stall. Plus I believe it needs to be CBtar in order to ko.I've been running worry seed on the only two stall teams I've been running, so Rankurusu gives me very little problems. While heavy stall lacks the offense to deal with this guy though, couldn't a cleaner be run to take care of him? Tyranitar has already been mentioned.
Unless you've done enough damage on the previous turn I wouldn't say Tyranitar is that reliable of a clean up, as say compared to Scizor, since its really a gamble of whether Focus Blast hits or not (so its usually quite exciting to see who manages to kill the other first XD).I've been running worry seed on the only two stall teams I've been running, so Rankurusu gives me very little problems. While heavy stall lacks the offense to deal with this guy though, couldn't a cleaner be run to take care of him? Tyranitar has already been mentioned.
But the thing is, the SD clause during 4th gen opened up a whole can of worms. You could just as easily sayOk, let's put it like this:
Breloom with Spore =/= broken
Darkrai with Dark Void = broken (arguably, many will agree)
Now the fact is that Spore is a better move than Dark Void (same effect, higher accuracy), and the fact that even with a worse move, Darkrai is broken, while Breloom, a high-tier OU, is not. I guess that places Darkrai above that, and with that into Ubers.
soul dew directly effects stats, void does not in any way that is the main difference. the lati twins became insanely powerful with itthe higher of their boosted stats hitting effective base 229 the lower 189 iirc.But the thing is, the SD clause during 4th gen opened up a whole can of worms. You could just as easily say
Pikachu with Light Ball =/= broken
Latias with Soul Dew = broken
Since Soul Dew is arguably worse than Light Ball, wouldn't that mean that Latias should never have been tested in OU?
I believe that the SD clause of last gen should have never been in existence, because of the slippery slope it created.
Unless someone can find a difference between SD and DV besides the obvious "One is an item, One is a move" argument, Domeface is correct here.
Are you sure it would not be broken?Thing is, Light Ball isn't a problem because, while it would be broken on a very large number of pokemon, none of said pokemon can use it. Soul Dew would be broken on a very large number of pokemon too, some of which receive it. Dark Void would not be broken on that many mons (for example, DP Hypnosis Gengar (probably) wasn't broken and it's a very good mon that is well-equipped to abuse an accurate sleep move).
That difference is really not that significant (imo) to differentiate the two. Why does affecting stats mean that something can suddenly be banned? You could say Darkrai becomes insanely powerful with DV with the ability of an essential free kill and free set-up.soul dew directly effects stats, void does not in any way that is the main difference. the lati twins became insanely powerful with itthe higher of their boosted stats hitting effective base 229 the lower 189 iirc.
So many things wrong with that calc. First, Hera's using a Choice Scarf, not a boosting item as an offensive pokemon would. With LO, Expert Belt, or Choice Band, it OHKOs. Second, Rankurusu is using 252/252 with a +Def nature. That's a completely unreasonable spread; no Rankurusu runs that. With a reasonable spread, it's not too difficult to 2HKO Rankurusu with any sort of attacking pokemon.Heracross@Choice Scarf (252) Megahorn vs Rankurusu (252/252 EVs, +Nature): 85.3 ~ 100.9% (362 ~ 428 HP)
(P.S. calc is adamant, don't know why it doesn't say + nature. it deals 92% max with jolly).
A STAB SE 120 BP move off of 125 base attack only has a 7% chance to ohko. Considering how rare stab SE moves are on the physical side (the only other ones being ttar crunch and scizor u-turn), you'll need a pretty strong neutral physical move just to 2hko it. Less than a 2hko... recover means he can set up on you. As for the special side... it's boosting with calm mind. Not much chance there.
You need pretty good offenses to break it's defenses, which a heavy stall team does quite simply put not have. They must rely on other methods, such as encore, taunt, and pp stalling.
This seems to be the recurring argument, that Dark Void is too powerful in itself. Then why isn't Spore?You could say Darkrai becomes insanely powerful with DV with the ability of an essential free kill and free set-up.