Does even Nintendo banning Soul Dew in their Battle Facilities and official tournaments, even when Ubers are allowed, mean anything to this debate?
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!
- Thread starter Philip7086
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Nope, since they often ban things which are event only. It has no relevance on its power or on Smogon policy.
Justice Heart won't stop Dark Void from working (Otherwise Scarf Terakion would be a great Darkrai counter), but Herbivore will stop Spore. Seeing as there are immunes to Spore it is only "strictly better" than Dark Void in the sense Light Ball is "strictly better" than Soul Dew. You could say it's because Soul Dew has better users, but the same can be said for Dark Void!
Just playing devils advocate...
Just playing devils advocate...
Ok, let's put it like this:
Breloom with Spore =/= broken
Darkrai with Dark Void = broken (arguably, many will agree)
Now the fact is that Spore is a better move than Dark Void (same effect, higher accuracy), and the fact that even with a worse move, Darkrai is broken, while Breloom, a high-tier OU, is not. I guess that places Darkrai above that, and with that into Ubers.
Breloom with Spore =/= broken
Darkrai with Dark Void = broken (arguably, many will agree)
Now the fact is that Spore is a better move than Dark Void (same effect, higher accuracy), and the fact that even with a worse move, Darkrai is broken, while Breloom, a high-tier OU, is not. I guess that places Darkrai above that, and with that into Ubers.
Rankurusu should be banned.
And here's why:
Many of you will remember a thread by DougjustDoug. It was entitled, "Charateristics of a Desirable Pokemon Metagame", and in it, people attempted to answer the question of what kind of metagame we wanted to create. The second point on that list is as follows:
Quote:
Variety
The metagame should have the widest possible variety of playing options and strategies that are viable and competitive for knowledgeable players.
Now let me explain how this relates to the banning of Rankurusu. As most of you will no doubt know, Rankurusu is available with the ability Magic Guard. This ability makes it immune to all forms of passive damage: it must be taken out by direct attacks. But how does this relate to the banning of Rankurusu?
One of the main playstyles in copetitive Pokemon is Stall. Heavy Stall, the main subfacet of this, is the intention to eliminate all of your opponents Pokemon using various forms of passive damage. Whether damaging weather, Entry Hazards or Status, eventually, the enemy team succumbs to the conditions and is defeated. But Rankurusu makes this entire playstyle totally unviable. Let's start with the obvious. Magic Guard means it is unkillable using passive damage. However, there is another Pokemon with access to Magic Guard: Clefable. Surely then, Clefable should also be banned?
The problem with this mentality is that although Clefable is immune to passive damage, there is little else it can try and do. Disregarding Magic Guard, it is almost completely outclassed by Blissey and Chansey as a defensive Pokemon, and as an Offensive Pokemon, there are many better options. Compare thier base Defenses:
Clefable: 95/73/90
Rankurusu: 110/75/85
As we can see, Rankurusu is clearly superior in Defense, and slightly superior in Special Defense. Now lets see how they individually deal with commonly seen 5th generation Pokemon:
To start with, we'll look at Roobushin. The standard Bulk Up set, which is becoming very common in the 5th generation metgame due to it's ability to counter many top threats.
+2 0 Atk. Roobushin Payback Vs. 252/252 Rankurusu - (124-146)+1 0 Satk Rankurusu Psychic in Return - (330-390)
+2 0 Atk. Roobushin Drain Punch Vs. 252/252 Clefable - (380-450)
Clefable is generally unable to hit Roobushin in return.
As we can see from these calculations, even a +2 Super Effective attack coming off a powerful pokemon barely scratches Rankurusu, while it deals heavy damage in return. I have chosen Roobushin since it is sometimes seen on stall teams as a counter and utility check.
Another offensive pokemon seen on stall teams is Tyranitar. I'll assume a fairly bulky spread with 80 Atk Ev's - this is still Stall after all.
Tyranitar Crunch Vs. 252/252 Rankurusu - (224-266)
+1 Focus Blast in return - (420-496)
Tyranitar Stone Edge Vs. Clefable - (144-169)
As we can see, Rankurusu takes heavy damage from the Crunch but is not Ko'd, and rips Tyranitar apart in return. While Stone Edge does not do huge damage to Clefable, all it is really able to do in return is Thunder Wave, which can be easily dealt with by a cleric.
A final Point I would like to make is that on it's own, Clefable cannot beat stall. It gets Softboiled, but it's only real boosting move is Belly Drum, which is very risky and forces it to run a Physical set, meaning Desukan can easily remove Magic Guard and allow Clefable to be killed by passive damage. On the other hand, once stall is unable to force Rankurusu out with Roar, it will often sweep through the team, forcing the stall player to PP stall it if he or she wants to have any hope of beating it. Due to the decent amount of PP Rankurusu usually finds available, this is very tedious and difficult. Clefable can also be crippled by a Burn, whereas the only status which worries the Psychic Type is sleep, and a Heavy Stall Team has no real way to capitalise on the free turns it gets in this manner.
So to conclude, (or just as a tl;dr point) I believe Rankurusu should be Banned because it's ability allows it to remove Heavy Stall as a viable playstyle, thereby infracting the second point of DougjustDoug's "Characteristics of a Desirable Pokemon Metagame".
FastFlygon
And here's why:
Many of you will remember a thread by DougjustDoug. It was entitled, "Charateristics of a Desirable Pokemon Metagame", and in it, people attempted to answer the question of what kind of metagame we wanted to create. The second point on that list is as follows:
Quote:
Variety
The metagame should have the widest possible variety of playing options and strategies that are viable and competitive for knowledgeable players.
Now let me explain how this relates to the banning of Rankurusu. As most of you will no doubt know, Rankurusu is available with the ability Magic Guard. This ability makes it immune to all forms of passive damage: it must be taken out by direct attacks. But how does this relate to the banning of Rankurusu?
One of the main playstyles in copetitive Pokemon is Stall. Heavy Stall, the main subfacet of this, is the intention to eliminate all of your opponents Pokemon using various forms of passive damage. Whether damaging weather, Entry Hazards or Status, eventually, the enemy team succumbs to the conditions and is defeated. But Rankurusu makes this entire playstyle totally unviable. Let's start with the obvious. Magic Guard means it is unkillable using passive damage. However, there is another Pokemon with access to Magic Guard: Clefable. Surely then, Clefable should also be banned?
The problem with this mentality is that although Clefable is immune to passive damage, there is little else it can try and do. Disregarding Magic Guard, it is almost completely outclassed by Blissey and Chansey as a defensive Pokemon, and as an Offensive Pokemon, there are many better options. Compare thier base Defenses:
Clefable: 95/73/90
Rankurusu: 110/75/85
As we can see, Rankurusu is clearly superior in Defense, and slightly superior in Special Defense. Now lets see how they individually deal with commonly seen 5th generation Pokemon:
To start with, we'll look at Roobushin. The standard Bulk Up set, which is becoming very common in the 5th generation metgame due to it's ability to counter many top threats.
+2 0 Atk. Roobushin Payback Vs. 252/252 Rankurusu - (124-146)+1 0 Satk Rankurusu Psychic in Return - (330-390)
+2 0 Atk. Roobushin Drain Punch Vs. 252/252 Clefable - (380-450)
Clefable is generally unable to hit Roobushin in return.
As we can see from these calculations, even a +2 Super Effective attack coming off a powerful pokemon barely scratches Rankurusu, while it deals heavy damage in return. I have chosen Roobushin since it is sometimes seen on stall teams as a counter and utility check.
Another offensive pokemon seen on stall teams is Tyranitar. I'll assume a fairly bulky spread with 80 Atk Ev's - this is still Stall after all.
Tyranitar Crunch Vs. 252/252 Rankurusu - (224-266)
+1 Focus Blast in return - (420-496)
Tyranitar Stone Edge Vs. Clefable - (144-169)
As we can see, Rankurusu takes heavy damage from the Crunch but is not Ko'd, and rips Tyranitar apart in return. While Stone Edge does not do huge damage to Clefable, all it is really able to do in return is Thunder Wave, which can be easily dealt with by a cleric.
A final Point I would like to make is that on it's own, Clefable cannot beat stall. It gets Softboiled, but it's only real boosting move is Belly Drum, which is very risky and forces it to run a Physical set, meaning Desukan can easily remove Magic Guard and allow Clefable to be killed by passive damage. On the other hand, once stall is unable to force Rankurusu out with Roar, it will often sweep through the team, forcing the stall player to PP stall it if he or she wants to have any hope of beating it. Due to the decent amount of PP Rankurusu usually finds available, this is very tedious and difficult. Clefable can also be crippled by a Burn, whereas the only status which worries the Psychic Type is sleep, and a Heavy Stall Team has no real way to capitalise on the free turns it gets in this manner.
So to conclude, (or just as a tl;dr point) I believe Rankurusu should be Banned because it's ability allows it to remove Heavy Stall as a viable playstyle, thereby infracting the second point of DougjustDoug's "Characteristics of a Desirable Pokemon Metagame".
FastFlygon
Percentages are preferable to the actual numbers.
I myself thought Rankurusu might prove to be broken later on, for the reason you mentioned (destroying stall) but there a a variety of ways to deal with it (even if it would make the team not quite heavy stall). CBtar handles offensive versions pretty well, and sableye and spiritomb handle defensive cm psychic/focus blast versions. Encore also ruins cmers, and unaware pokes might be able to handle it. I doubt it will be voted uber, and if it was a suspect this round, I would vote it OU.
lol are you serious? SubCM Clefable's done the exact same thing to stall since forever. Why isn't that broken?
You have it all wrong; I'm not making any hypothetical claims about Darkrai with or without Void, I'm dismissing your test on the idea of it being fundamentally counterproductive. That's not a question we should be asking ourselves to begin with, frankly, because it takes us to deeper level of balancing that we as players should not tread: weakening the Ubers. The process you're suggesting is entirely different from the one in which we're engaged now, which is to get rid of singular culprits.
Case in point: You want Darkrai + Dark Void banned. Keeping Darkrai in OU under certain conditions does not help balance the metagame, it only begs the question what other measures we could be taking to balance other Ubers in a similar way. You do not see the future repercussions of banning a move that isn't in and of itself broken because the convenience of the current situation blinds you. Dark Void is not a broken move just because Darkrai abuses it to make himself broken. Accusing it as such and subsequently banning it is illogical.
Also, understand this: in the context of our current suspect testing policy, your hypothesis is irrelevant.
Philip7086 said:
If you really want to know what a Darkrai without Dark Void can do, use him on the ladder with your own custom set and tell us what you think. No need to push for complete policy reversal when 90% of the community including the guy in charge is vehemently against it.
I've beaten clefable. It has weaker defenses, and is less threatening. But every Rankurusu counter is offensive. Beyond PP stalling it, I can't beat it.
I'm testing Taunt/Roost Mew, but I doubt it will help.
I'm testing Taunt/Roost Mew, but I doubt it will help.
No, because just because Rankurusu does well against stall teams doesn't mean it's broken. Heavy stall is still a viable strategy, in fact with team preview it's arguably one of the more viable strategies going. All stall teams have to consider the likes of Rankurusu who can seriously hurt it's chances.
I run a heavy stall team and don't have many problems with Rankurusu as long as my counter isn't gone. Spiritomb, for example, is very viable on a stall team (spin blocker with no weaknesses and "counters" lots of common Pokemon like Deoxys-A), and generally the best thing Rank is going to hit it with is unSTABed Shadow Ball. Spiritomb can use Rank as set up bait for more offensive sets, or attack it's unboosted defence stat with moves like Sucker Punch or Pursuit. With Pressure, Spiritomb can easily stall it out if Rankurusu stays in and tries to set up more (why it would do that is beyond me).
I'll test Spiritomb, but I'm not sure it'll help. Pursuit isn't going to do more than 50%.
Sableye's probably better than spiritomb this gen anyway (or it will be once its released in DW). Seriously, subtorment makes it force out and stall quite a lot of things, and it can burn or torment the switch in it causes from behind its sub. It does come down to a pp stall, but even if rank wins it'll probably be down to one move, which usually has immunities.
Also do keep in mind its not like payback would be doing THAT much damage to Rank to be reliable in OHKOing him given that Rank is slower than Roobushin hence Payback would be fired off 50 BP rather than 100 so its not that odd for a bulky Rank to survive it. Besides its quite easy to shut down Rankurusu CM versions, as TLK noted Spiritomb is a great counter to him and quite a viable Pokemon to use (not only would he be immune to at least one or at worst both coverage moves of Rank but can taunt him so as to prevent Recover and from there Sucker Punch). Outside of Spiritomb or stall dealing with Rankurusu is still quite possible to revenge kill thanks to his lack of speed, well outside of TR anyways since you're talking about the CM version which really isn't run on the TR version, Scizor can easily safely come in and use U-turn or Bug bite to inflict heavy damage to OHKO depending on how you've defensively EV'd Rank and the damage Rank has taken. Or actually the ever so common dragon+outrage would break through him or force him out. Really he's leagues ahead, ESPECIALLY the CM version though that doesn't mean the TR version is suspect given that stall is exactly the worst enemy of the TR version given that it tends to waste the precious TR turns, of being more manageable to deal with than the others being nominated here.
Do you have no offensive moves on your team? It's defenses aren't that difficult to break.
Rankurusu is innocent i tell you. he really isnt that broken in comparison to others
Heracross@Choice Scarf (252) Megahorn vs Rankurusu (252/252 EVs, +Nature): 85.3 ~ 100.9% (362 ~ 428 HP)cosmicexplorer said:
(P.S. calc is adamant, don't know why it doesn't say + nature. it deals 92% max with jolly).
A STAB SE 120 BP move off of 125 base attack only has a 7% chance to ohko. Considering how rare stab SE moves are on the physical side (the only other ones being ttar crunch and scizor u-turn), you'll need a pretty strong neutral physical move just to 2hko it. Less than a 2hko... recover means he can set up on you. As for the special side... it's boosting with calm mind. Not much chance there.
You need pretty good offenses to break it's defenses, which a heavy stall team does quite simply put not have. They must rely on other methods, such as encore, taunt, and pp stalling.
alphatron
Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!
I've been running worry seed on the only two stall teams I've been running, so Rankurusu gives me very little problems. While heavy stall lacks the offense to deal with this guy though, couldn't a cleaner be run to take care of him? Tyranitar has already been mentioned.
Yep. the problem is if people nitpick and say that it is no longer "heavy" stall. Plus I believe it needs to be CBtar in order to ko.
Unless you've done enough damage on the previous turn I wouldn't say Tyranitar is that reliable of a clean up, as say compared to Scizor, since its really a gamble of whether Focus Blast hits or not (so its usually quite exciting to see who manages to kill the other first XD).
But the thing is, the SD clause during 4th gen opened up a whole can of worms. You could just as easily say
Pikachu with Light Ball =/= broken
Latias with Soul Dew = broken
Since Soul Dew is arguably worse than Light Ball, wouldn't that mean that Latias should never have been tested in OU?
I believe that the SD clause of last gen should have never been in existence, because of the slippery slope it created.
Unless someone can find a difference between SD and DV besides the obvious "One is an item, One is a move" argument, Domeface is correct here.
Ice-eyes
Simper Fi
Thing is, Light Ball isn't a problem because, while it would be broken on a very large number of pokemon, none of said pokemon can use it. Soul Dew would be broken on a very large number of pokemon too, some of which receive it. Dark Void would not be broken on that many mons (for example, DP Hypnosis Gengar (probably) wasn't broken and it's a very good mon that is well-equipped to abuse an accurate sleep move).
soul dew directly effects stats, void does not in any way that is the main difference. the lati twins became insanely powerful with itthe higher of their boosted stats hitting effective base 229 the lower 189 iirc.
another way to dispose of rankurusu, specks-gar's shadow ball absolutely destroys it.
Are you sure it would not be broken?
EDIT:
That difference is really not that significant (imo) to differentiate the two. Why does affecting stats mean that something can suddenly be banned? You could say Darkrai becomes insanely powerful with DV with the ability of an essential free kill and free set-up.
So many things wrong with that calc. First, Hera's using a Choice Scarf, not a boosting item as an offensive pokemon would. With LO, Expert Belt, or Choice Band, it OHKOs. Second, Rankurusu is using 252/252 with a +Def nature. That's a completely unreasonable spread; no Rankurusu runs that. With a reasonable spread, it's not too difficult to 2HKO Rankurusu with any sort of attacking pokemon.
But however badly done that calc was, all of that misses the actual point. SubCM Clefable's very slightly lower defenses are negligible when facing a full stall team. It is absolutely and definitively the end to all full stall teams. It has the same effectiveness as Rankurusu, because both completely destroy the idea of full stall. If you argue that Rankurusu's broken, you can't argue that Clefable's not. The very idea of a full stall team is that it has no attacking pokemon, so the difference in defenses is negligible. If you don't argue that SubCM Clefable is broken (which it isn't), then you can't argue that Rankurusu is broken (it also isn't).
EDIT: And I fail epically. Thanks, Lee. However, the other points I made still stand, and the point remains that a full stall team doesn't have any offensive pokemon, which is why the difference in defenses from Clefable to Rankurusu is completely negligible.
This seems to be the recurring argument, that Dark Void is too powerful in itself. Then why isn't Spore?
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