5th Gen Concept Theoreymoning

[ryik7]

I'm aware, but they don't have strategy, that's not a strategy, imagine some random movie, they go in charging without a plan, i don't think that counts as strategy,

"the science or art of combining and employing the means of war in planning and directing large military movements and operations."

sure strategy can involve stuff like sunny day ie. sunny day+solarbeam is strategy, but that's not what I mean, I mean a poke that can rely Solely on strategy to take down opponents, like the lv1 trick room smeargle on smogon, That's strategy, you don't have to pump up ur power, you already prepared what 2 do, prediction isn't strategy in my book, strategy in it's very essence is intelligence, I'm not saying you guys are dumb (I mean damn, you guys are experts at this shiz, knowing howthe slightest EV changes let's u outspeed this much pokes and this and that...), but I'm saying strategy is more than just 4 atks, more than just prediction, perish trapping, trick smeargle, so on and so forth is what I mean, I made a stalling lv 1 smeargle, sure it has some major flaws, but (and I hate to be rude) is ur stalling lv 1 better than mine? cuz I'd love to hear about it, and yes, considering it uses 2 pokes, leech seed+lv1 sturdy doesn't count.

point is, all I'm saying is that if a poke were made that could decentralise the pseudos/strongies, it would impact the metagame so great unseen pokes could actually be used again, misdreavus may actual end up being OU (lol overoptimisticity), but in any case, please at least consider, oh, and what if it could also be a weather counter?

also, misdreavus, exacts:

Midravus@Evo stone
Bold, 252 def/136spdef/120 for HP or spd
Levitate
Mean look
Perish song
Destiny bond
Pain split

 

[Tortferngatr]

I'm aware, but they don't have strategy, that's not a strategy, imagine some random movie, they go in charging without a plan, i don't think that counts as strategy,

"the science or art of combining and employing the means of war in planning and directing large military movements and operations."

sure strategy can involve stuff like sunny day ie. sunny day+solarbeam is strategy, but that's not what I mean, I mean a poke that can rely Solely on strategy to take down opponents, like the lv1 trick room smeargle on smogon, That's strategy, you don't have to pump up ur power, you already prepared what 2 do, prediction isn't strategy in my book, strategy in it's very essence is intelligence, I'm not saying you guys are dumb (I mean damn, you guys are experts at this shiz, knowing howthe slightest EV changes let's u outspeed this much pokes and this and that...), but I'm saying strategy is more than just 4 atks, more than just prediction, perish trapping, trick smeargle, so on and so forth is what I mean, I made a stalling lv 1 smeargle, sure it has some major flaws, but (and I hate to be rude) is ur stalling lv 1 better than mine? cuz I'd love to hear about it, and yes, considering it uses 2 pokes, leech seed+lv1 sturdy doesn't count.

point is, all I'm saying is that if a poke were made that could decentralise the pseudos/strongies, it would impact the metagame so great unseen pokes could actually be used again, misdreavus may actual end up being OU (lol overoptimisticity), but in any case, please at least consider, oh, and what if it could also be a weather counter?

Prediction is a means of war-when you don't know what the enemy is going to do and you lack the ability to cover all fronts, you have to predict what the enemy is going to try and do. In Gen V Pokemon battling, this situation occurs frequently. Secondly, use of force is also a means of war. Your usage of "pure strategy mon" runs into definitional problems.

Admittedly the misdreavus set you posted looks like an interesting gimmick-just be aware that many Pokemon can stop it. (P.S.: Skarmory used Whirlwind!)

Finally, my level 1 stall does not exist, and I do not run stall at level 100, but I know that better stallers exist than Smeargle. The point of a stall team is to reliably win games-it's the matter of who's better at doing the job no matter what, not who is capable of doing the job at level 1.

Please

some more.

 

[ryik7]

Prediction is a means of war-when you don't know what the enemy is going to do and you lack the ability to cover all fronts, you have to predict what the enemy is going to try and do. In Gen V Pokemon battling, this situation occurs frequently. Secondly, use of force is also a means of war. Your usage of "pure strategy mon" runs into definitional problems.

Admittedly the misdreavus set you posted looks like an interesting gimmick-just be aware that many Pokemon can stop it. (P.S.: Skarmory used Whirlwind!)

Finally, my level 1 stall does not exist, and I do not run stall at level 100, but I know that better stallers exist than Smeargle. The point of a stall team is to reliably win games-it's the matter of who's better at doing the job no matter what, not who is capable of doing the job at level 1.

Please

some more.

good point, although I would never use midravus on a poke with stat boosters (usually don't matter anyway), the rather rare taunt or a spike setter, but back to the point, definition aside, i like gimmicks and strategies like the death lock, but get bored of hit hard tactics, my froslass doesnt know spikes (which automatically makes me a madman) and could be a powerful force on a sunny day team, (again, coo-koo), but I like it like that, i like pokes that function in un-ordinary ways, some offensive stuff I sometimes use are flinch jirachi, techloom and my froslass, because of how my pokes work, only my bayleef and shuckle are affected by type weaknesses, I use onorthodox methods, but you know what? People arent prepared for it, i remember a baton pass team, it kept calm minding and using stuff like aqua ring on my shuckle, little did they know my shuckle actually sweeps (didnt see that one coming didya?), they let my shuckle set up various things, long story short, they were leech seeded and power shared while shuckle had +6 in EVERY stat (including accuracy and evasion) and murdered them all (how you gonna beat a +6 shuckle with defenses over 2200 when ur power shared?) :P

long story short, I wanna make a poke that can be fun to use, it's pretty funny when they get swept by a shuckle, but remember that shuckle is the destroyer of WORLDS!

 

[sax king]

Okay, ryik, I'm agreeing with everyone else. There's a reason why people use psuedo-legendaries: it's because they're good. But you have to realize that we aren't just saying "OMG SALAMENCE HYPERBEAM SPAM" We use Salamence because it's good, easy to set up, and can tear apart teams. You claim that pokemon like Arghonaut are just more psuedo-legendaries, but they're not. It's just a regular pokemon with normal stats and normal counters and checks. You claim that strategy has died. My only response: are you high? In my opinion strategy is still just as alive as before, if not more alive. Whether or not you use it is differently. But those who don't use strategy aren't winning any matches. If you are laddering to the point where you play competent players, you will notice that they actually use strategy. Using Salamence requires just as much strategy as your Shuckle. As for your team, no one is really interested in how you beat your opponent. In fact, your opponent really probably competent. No one really allows a Shuckle get to +6 in every stat and an aqua ring. And I really don't care weather or not your Froslass knows Spikes, it's not really a terribly bold statement. As a general rule, gimmicks really don't work as effectively as other strategies. A pure strategic mon has many problems, and I would say that we already have many mons that are similar to your concept, because I don't agree with your statement that people don't strategize anymore.
I don't want to sound harsh, but your suggestion/rant just didn't make sense.

As for the concepts "Decentralizer" and pretty much any one suggesting something anti-weather, Anti-metagmae really isn't a concept, because the meta-game is always evolving and changing, and in a few months, it'll just be a random pokemon. And with Aldaran's proposal being passed, I really don't think a weather counter is necessary or particularly useful.

I'd like to repost one of my concepts which I think is interesting:

Jack Of All Trades

Versatility and Suprise are two major parts of a battle. Any player can mix and match sets and make a team, but a good one creates his/her own custom sets with suprises in store. On truly versatile pokemon can be capable of running multiple different sets. I'm not just talking Choice Band, Choice Scarf, or Physical LO, I'm talking about Wall, Attacker, Supporter all on the same pokemon. I'd like to see a pokemon so versatile that it is capable of filling all sorts of roles. It is truly capable of accomplishing all different types of jobs. Obviously, to prevent it from being overpowered, we make it somewhat mediocre at each of these jobs, allowing it to catch the opponent of guard and by suprise, but not being able to singlehandedly take out the opponent's team.

How this will affect the metagame:
Will this shift people into creating more creative sets and ideas since this pokemon is capable of doing more than one thing?
How important is suprise in a pokemon battle?
How can you counter a pokemon capable of doing everything?
Is scouting really dead due to team previews? Or will this mark the comeback of set scouting?

 

[zarator]

sax king, not to put too much of a point, but there are already several Pokémon who can do what you say. Tyranitar can take attacks, set up Stealth Rock and dish out some pain. In 4th gen, Celebi could easily perform attacking, defensive or supporting roles. The point is, we know how such a versatility affects the metagame. Plus, I'd like to note that many of your questions have little to do with the ability to perform all these three roles. For example, Celebi is checked by the same Pokémon no matter what kind of set it runs - whether it is a wall, or a supporter, or a sweeper, you are gonna resort to Tyranitar, scizor or Heatran to check him. On the contrary, Pokémon which can perform only one of these roles are sufficiently diversified to actually require very different checks. For example, LO HP Ice Landlos and SD/RP Yache Landlos are both offensive sets of a mon which really can only play offensive roles, yet these two sets are checked very differently (for example, Gliscor dies to the first but counters the second, whereas most bulky waters can check the first but die to the second). Having different sets of counters (and being able to actually "pack a surprise") has less to do with being able to perform different roles and more with the movepool, the ability and the typing.

 

[ryik7]

Okay, ryik, I'm agreeing with everyone else. There's a reason why people use psuedo-legendaries: it's because they're good. But you have to realize that we aren't just saying "OMG SALAMENCE HYPERBEAM SPAM" We use Salamence because it's good, easy to set up, and can tear apart teams. You claim that pokemon like Arghonaut are just more psuedo-legendaries, but they're not. It's just a regular pokemon with normal stats and normal counters and checks. You claim that strategy has died. My only response: are you high? In my opinion strategy is still just as alive as before, if not more alive. Whether or not you use it is differently. But those who don't use strategy aren't winning any matches. If you are laddering to the point where you play competent players, you will notice that they actually use strategy. Using Salamence requires just as much strategy as your Shuckle. As for your team, no one is really interested in how you beat your opponent. In fact, your opponent really probably competent. No one really allows a Shuckle get to +6 in every stat and an aqua ring. And I really don't care weather or not your Froslass knows Spikes, it's not really a terribly bold statement. As a general rule, gimmicks really don't work as effectively as other strategies. A pure strategic mon has many problems, and I would say that we already have many mons that are similar to your concept, because I don't agree with your statement that people don't strategize anymore.
I don't want to sound harsh, but your suggestion/rant just didn't make sense.

As for the concepts "Decentralizer" and pretty much any one suggesting something anti-weather, Anti-metagmae really isn't a concept, because the meta-game is always evolving and changing, and in a few months, it'll just be a random pokemon. And with Aldaran's proposal being passed, I really don't think a weather counter is necessary or particularly useful.

froslass, if i remember correctly became OU because it can set up spikes and still destiny bond

Everyone sets up on staller pokes, and once i use power share and accupressure to sp. def, all the calm minds in the world won't help, I didnt get aqua ring, they did,

Choice users (switching aside) are the same principle as spam hyper beam, (trick is strategy to me), people don't use Salamence because it's good, (it is, but...) they use it cuz its strong, and tell me, can you deny that? If sala was weak, would you still use it? If so, why not something like gyrados? I'm not an elitist as you guys point out smogon is in other threads, but if sala was weak no-one would use him, altaria, dragonite, garchompy or gyrados would probably end up being better, and tell me, am I wrong? Argonaut is, as normal as it may be, is just another high power poke with similarities to sala, I want a game to be fun, if it's not, then theres no point in playing it (in retrospect, that could be a life philosophy: if it does not bring you hapoiness, there is no point in doing it) and, for the most part smogon is black and white about this, as all I ever see is suppoter/baton passer, sweeper, staller and entry hazards, if my team (sry, don't mean to brag, just examples) can take down all 4, why arent they used? my techloom and smeargle can change you sweeping into me sweeping, few things stop midravus and succesfully put an end to it unscathed, shuckle sets up on any poke, even sweepers setting up with dragon dance swords dance nasty plot or sub (all of which stopped by other pokes) and then sweep with utter invincibility, see what I mean? I like unconvientional things, and amazingly, it works, so what if a poke were made that would give rise to all that?

also, jack of all trades is everywhere, even doredia with butterfly dance teeter dance leech seed grasswhistle toxic baton pass (i think) and aromatherapy could fulfill jack of all trades, although it does lack entry hazards and (although this doesn't count) my way of fighting

 

[ungulateman]

Salamence is good BECAUSE he's strong. He can run defensive sets anyway.

Choice users are not the same as HYPER BEAM SPAM because it actually works.

Arghonaut fulfills the concept of "sweep stopping" - he was designed to stop Pokemon like Salamence in their tracks, go "screw you" and KO them. That's why his defensive stats are higher than his Attack. It's why he has Unaware. It's why he has the phenomenal defensive typing of Water/Fighting.

What the hell are you going on about?

 

[ryik7]

Salamence is good BECAUSE he's strong. He can run defensive sets anyway.

Choice users are not the same as HYPER BEAM SPAM because it actually works.

Arghonaut fulfills the concept of "sweep stopping" - he was designed to stop Pokemon like Salamence in their tracks, go "screw you" and KO them. That's why his defensive stats are higher than his Attack. It's why he has Unaware. It's why he has the phenomenal defensive typing of Water/Fighting.

What the hell are you going on about?

ok, 1 I mixed up argonaut with the other guy, I didnt know argo was the squid, i thought it was the grass fire one, *checks name* Pyroak,

2, IDC anymore, I wanted a fun poke, thats all, a fun poke that fights my way, just look at my team, I have no basic fighters, no rapid spinners, no entry hazards, no nutin, but it's fun and it works, THATS ALL

oh, and my team is right here in case u have no idea what im taking about, and yes, I really feel that I am flaunting my team WAY too much,:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3308350#post3308350

 

[ungulateman]

If you want a fun Pokemon then go use Luvdisc or something. CAP is about competitively viable Pokemon (which are fun to use anyway, but apparently you only have fun when you're using terrible Pokemon and obtuse, over-wrought strategies).

Pyroak is even more defensive than Arghonaut, your argument is invalid.

 

[ssbbm]

ryik might be talking about pre-revision Pyroak, which was admittedly quite broken.

 

[ryik7]

If you want a fun Pokemon then go use Luvdisc or something. CAP is about competitively viable Pokemon (which are fun to use anyway, but apparently you only have fun when you're using terrible Pokemon and obtuse, over-wrought strategies).

Pyroak is even more defensive than Arghonaut, your argument is invalid.

lol Luvdisk am not funz.

Sweeping shuckle is fun (it's funny, when the people on poke online heard about it they said "TAKE THAT SMOGON!"), and yes, they ARE viable, I won an entire tournament with just sweeping shuckle and the rest of my "pathetic" team

I'm aware Pyroak is defensive, just like salamence or dragonite, and his atk is very high too.

anyway, fun or not, they are viable, problems or not, isn't that what CAP is for? to let unused strategies shine? To make a poke and see how it impacts the metagame, so why not an indirect fighter? With enough bulk and a useful ability, it would shine

But if u guys are so persistant, I'll let it die, so I may as well submit another idea while I'm at it:

Unpredictability

poke would have good defenses, I mean very good, for both def and sp def, but would come with something like an ability that halves def and doubles sp def or vice versa (2 different ones) and you would have to figure out which one it was before it could set up or whatever, and then, to top it all off, it would have a bit of shuckle in it with guard trick or something that would switch it's defenses, we made up abilities and moves before, so how's this? broken? pathetic?

 

[Korski]

I'm not really a fan of an "anti-" concepts for CAP, especially anti-weather. When you're specifically designing a Pokemon to stop a particular strategy, you're either making it useless without the presence of the particular strategy or so powerful (powerful enough to cover all its bases) that it loses the concept somewhere in the mix, imo. Maybe it's just Colossoil/Krillowatt recoil I'm feeling there, but I seem to recall that CAP is intended to explore the current metagame, not try and change it on as drastic a level as to fully counter weather-based teams when weather basically defines the current meta. Even if it was just "Sand-offense counter," something that can effectively shut down Excadrill, Landlos, Garchomp, Terrakion, and Tyranitar all in one without being easily KO'd by another easy-to-fit-on-a-SS-team Pokemon is a tall task and wouldn't, in my opinion, make it any easier than it already is to defeat Sand teams.

I would actually like to see something like "Rain-dependent sweeper," especially in the wake of the Drizzle + Swift Swim ban. Attempting to craft a Pokemon that can sweep effectively in the Rain (without swift Swim) but be difficult to use outside of Rain could be a very challenging and informative process (and I certainly don't mean a Manaphy-esque monster) and could maybe make offensive Rain seem less nerfed (it's not that nerfed in reality, just ask Gorebyss, Latios, or just about any Spec'd Hydro Pump user).

Another weather-themed Pokemon the metagame would appreciate, imo, would be a Drought Poke that wasn't so mismatched against Politoed and Tyranitar, but that's moving beyond the concept phase and into the ability phase. It could plausibly start with some sort of "anti-Sand/Rain" concept, though, which I would support with reluctance, due to my original argument. A good Drought Pokemon would open up a whole new viable avenue that currently isn't being explored very thoroughly due to Ninetales' crucial drawbacks.

Weather aside, I could support a "One-trick Pony" kind of concept, wherein the CAP is exceptional at one particular thing but is completely outclassed at everything else. It would be a good way to test the community's focus heading into this new gen. of CAPmons.

Finally, I would love to see past concepts revisited or retried to fit the current metagame, things like "Para-busing tank" or "Pivot Point." "Stop the Secondary" could mean something entirely different in this generation with Mischievous Heart and Magic Mirror around. Doing the same concept this gen. as was done in the last could have a profound educational effect.

 

[smallvizier]

Unpredictability

poke would have good defenses, I mean very good, for both def and sp def, but would come with something like an ability that halves def and doubles sp def or vice versa (2 different ones) and you would have to figure out which one it was before it could set up or whatever, and then, to top it all off, it would have a bit of shuckle in it with guard trick or something that would switch it's defenses, we made up abilities and moves before, so how's this? broken? pathetic?

1. Making up abilities is a bit of a blunt instrument. We can do it, but we'd like to think we're more creative than that.

2. Unpredictability is a popular concept and there are many ways to do it. Unpredictability by having two or three different abilities has already been suggested (at least) twice in the last two months: first by me, discussing Dream World abilities:

With team previews removing a lot of the 'educated guesswork,' I would welcome a pokemon with three of the best situational abilities, such that each would be a reasonable choice. That pokemon would be a real challenge to build, but that's a good thing! If we succeeded then we'd inevitably learn a lot about balancing different roles for a pokemon - and it could really keep battlers on their toes.

and then more broadly by Alchemator.

Concept: Dual Purpose

Description: A Pokémon that excels at two different roles, but has severe enough flaws to balance it.

Justification: The current metagame consists of very powerful Pokémon, both offensively and defensively. Thus more emphasis than in the previous Generation is put on the elements of surprise and unpredictability. In turn, however, this Pokémon should ideally also be vulnerable to surprises.

Such a concept would probably gain a decent amount of support. If it did make it through and become a CaP, though, it would be one of the more difficult projects we have attempted. It's worth remembering that Krilowatt originally had quite an unpredictable brief: "capable of countering any one of the top threats, but not with the same build."

As for the specific example you gave, I'm afraid I find that quite boring. "Double defense" and "double special defense" would certainly create a guessing-game for the attacker - however, they are both fundamentally similar strategies, and would share many of the same counters.

@Admiral: great post. Especially agree that recycling [the right] concepts could be really worthwhile.

 

[Chubbs]

I have one that might work (probably been suggest before, but hear me out please):

<removed until I refine it>

That probably devolved into fail halfway through, but that is probably because I am pretty naff at writing for anything other than essays.

 

[ryik7]

1. Making up abilities is a bit of a blunt instrument. We can do it, but we'd like to think we're more creative than that.

2. Unpredictability is a popular concept and there are many ways to do it. Unpredictability by having two or three different abilities has already been suggested (at least) twice in the last two months: first by me, discussing Dream World abilities:



and then more broadly by Alchemator.



Such a concept would probably gain a decent amount of support. If it did make it through and become a CaP, though, it would be one of the more difficult projects we have attempted. It's worth remembering that Krilowatt originally had quite an unpredictable brief: "capable of countering any one of the top threats, but not with the same build."

As for the specific example you gave, I'm afraid I find that quite boring. "Double defense" and "double special defense" would certainly create a guessing-game for the attacker - however, they are both fundamentally similar strategies, and would share many of the same counters.
[/I]

Im not disagreeing with you, but- liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiike?

And if it has good dual defenses it may become a little broken and too weak defenses on one side too, maybe more like quadruple it or something and 1/4th of the other def

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Don't worry about something being broken or not in concepts. Honestly, a good concept is one that completely ignores such things and focuses instead on creating a diverse CAP project with tons of options, doing something in the metagame that teaches us a lot of cool stuff, and being unique among CAPs for what it's doing. You don't want to recycle concepts from previous CAPs in the same generation, though across generations this isn't an issue. Keep all of that in mind and you'll find that your concepts will substantially improve.

For instance, all of this talk about "having high defenses" is bogus. You can't say that at the concept stage. We're not asking you to flesh out the whole Pokemon, we're asking you to flesh out a concept from which we can build the whole Pokemon. Having high defenses forces the stat distribution thread, and forcing a future poll at the concept stage is against the rules. It's ok to describe some ideas you had in the "Explanation" part of the concept, but what you're suggesting shouldn't be the only way it can work or you're doin' it wrong.

For some good examples of concepts and how they're worded/described, you should look at the final poll of our last DPP CAP. Both of those concepts offer great explanations and have a ton of cool prospects for the CAP. For BW, I imagine the structure of concepts will be mostly the same as it was in DPP, but that we'll see more things based on the new metagame than those of the past (perhaps an obvious point). For instance, I don't think Fidgit's concept would really have a place in BW CAP, but I do think something like Colossoil's concept would. That's just some food for thought, anyway.

 

[Paradox]

Ugh... this thread has taken a rather ugly turn, thanks for putting it back on track RD.

Anyways,

Concept: Protect your Secondary!

Description: A Pokemon to revitalize some aspects of the secondary that have taken big hits.

Justification: Spikestacking (or Hazardstacking), both offensively and defensively, has gone through some strange changes this gen. To its benefit, great spikers like Nattorei and Deoxys have become available, and Skarmory is more useful than ever. However, it has also taken some huge hits. Number one of these is, in my opinion, Rapid Spin Dory. With its ridiculous speed and attack alongside Swords Dance and Earthquake, Doryuzuu can OHKO every viable ghost with SD, or 2HKO without if it hits on the switch (except Dusclops I guess, though its cleanly 2HKOd at +2 not to mention it sucks) leaving it free to spin away (Tentacruel is also more effective this Gen imo thanks to Burungeru replacing Rotom-A). Also extremely dangerous is Reuniclus, who ignores hazards with Magic Guard, and laughs at 99% of Stall mons. And don't forget Magic Mirror, Mischievous Heart, new Sleep Mechanics (making Sleeptalking less effective), and the buffs to Trick (which shuts down supporters big-time). Keep in mind that the secondary isn't just hazard stacking, thats just a good example!

Questions: What elements of the secondary have become more or less viable, and how?
How does this effect stall? Offense?
How can hazards consistently be put up with threats like RS Dory or Magic Mirror around?


Note: This is far from a perfect concept - it definitely needs ironing out. One problem is it definitely leans towards a predetermined typing (ghost) to deal with rapid spin. However, I think that the role of spinblocker is a very significant one in the metagame, and unfortunately it necessitates Ghost-typing, meaning the only way it can really be examined is by predetermining typing. And don't forget that the secondary typing would still be very important.
I'm also not 100% sold that spikestacking actually has gotten worse. But I find that as long as you don't just let Natt and Skarm switch in whenever they want, it's not too hard to prevent them from being set up.
Lastly, there are a ton of elements to the secondary, and while some may have been nerfed, others have gotten huge boosts. ie Baton Pass (Shell Break), Screens (Deoxys-S, though they aren't used much), Weather, Wobbuffet's return, etc. Maybe the concept could even be expanded to "Balance the Secondary"?

Thoughts?

 

[darkchicken]

As always, constructive criticism is super appreciated.

Concept: The Rival

Description: A pokemon that is similar to another OU pokemon in many respects, but has a few of its own pros and cons.

Justification: There are many new powerhouses in Gen V, and we don't know everything about how the metagame will form yet. This concept could help us explore which aspects on a pokemon are those which make them viable, and which aspects are keeping them down.

Questions:

• Which qualities of a pokemon are most necessary for its job?
• How will having two similar pokemon influence the usage of each one?
• What influences the choice between two close options?

Explanation: Why is Ferrothorn much more successful than Forretress ever was? What would make Infernape viable over Blaziken? Would Conkeldurr be improved if he were a different type? I'm not saying we should recreate a pokemon with only a few tweaks; that would accomplish nothing. We should be able to analyze a pokemon to see what makes it tick, what is irrelevant, and what substitutions could be made to create a similar, but still obviously different pokemon.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

A pokemon that is similar to another OU pokemon in many respects, but has a few of its own pros and cons.

While this is cool, what does this offer competitively? Unfortunately, the answer is nothing. This is akin to having no concept at all, as there's absolutely no direction given to the CAP. Furthermore, we know why Pokemon are popular already, what we need is to explore new territory and not that already covered by the real Pokemon. Concepts should aim to explore interesting niches (either for Pokemon or the metagame those Pokemon produce) that we have little or no experience in and not attempt to create Pokemon very similar to already existing Pokemon.

 

[Admiral_Stalfos19]

Furthermore, we know why Pokemon are popular already, what we need is to explore new territory and not that already covered by the real Pokemon. Concepts should aim to explore interesting niches (either for Pokemon or the metagame those Pokemon produce) that we have little or no experience in.

That's the problem though, we're running out of niches for Pokemon to fill. I mean, we've already submitted a total of hundreds of concepts over the past couple years. Most of them weren't probably that great, I know, but not all of us can actually think of any brand new features to attempt to exploit... well, at least not without diverting to the same idea anyway.

Maybe if we try sticking to mon-types that we think this metagame needs?

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Honestly, having played the metagame, there still exist niches that haven't been exploited. Furthermore, in our past CAPs a lot of good concepts have been submitted, but were lost to history because more highly favored concepts were chosen instead. There's still a lot of breathing room. Lastly, it's a brand new metagame; different things dominate this than did DPP, meaning that we have so much to gain here. A concept doesn't necessarily have to be the Pokemon doing something special, but can be the Pokemon doing exactly what is necessary to facilitate a shift in the metagame that we learn from. Chew on that for a bit. ;)

 

[Admiral_Stalfos19]

I knew that (goes all shifty eyed)

As far as new niches go, I'm still stumped of ideas. Only thing I can think of is anti-weather and the whole No Guard Zap Cannon thing that might've been suggested before =/

 

[DetroitLolcat]

Concept: Second Chance


Description: A pokemon that can serve as insurance for the user's previous mistake.

Justification: Even the best players can be outpredicted and this can lead to a possibly undeserved victory. One misplay can cause a chain reaction of events that can prevent a player from coming back from this mistake. For example, if someone lets their opponent set up because they (mis)predicted a switch, this could lead to a mid-game sweep that creates an unwinable situation. This pokemon would serve as insurance if a player makes a bad play.

Questions:

If a player knows that they can make up for an error, will it make them play more liberally?

If the players adapt to a more liberal playstyle, what threats will be more prominent?

How will an opponent react knowing that the opponent can play more liberally because of Team Preview?

Can a pokemon that can theoretically save any game be made so that it doesn't break the game?

How can an opponent force the player to make two mistakes: One to kill the insurance, one to win the game?



This might seem ambiguous, but in theory if the player made a poor prediction, didn't take advantage of a previous situation, or made some other mistake, this pokemon would be able to serve to allow the user to reduce or even omit the previous instance of bad playing. For example, if you predicted your opponent's Terakion to switch out on your Nattorei because of the threat of Power Whip, but he stayed in and SDed to threaten a sweep, this pokemon would be able to stop that mistake from deciding the entire match. To ensure non-brokenness, maybe this Pokemon could only function one or two times as mistake insurance.

 

[Zebstrika]

Concept: The alone pokemon

Description: A pokemon that is always great regardless of the rest of its team

Justification: I've been building teams, and it's just fine with five pokemon. Their types fit together perfectly, with 2 resistances or one immunity/absorption for each weakness on the team, I have attacks of most types, supporters, somewhat defensive pokemon, special attackers, physical attackers, maybe mixed ones even. There is no extra pokemon that doesn't seem like all it will do is something already on, or alternatively, not covered by, my team. If there was a pokemon you could just slap on, and it could hold its own, great.

Questions:

• When would people get into such a scenario and be unable to fix it just by tweaking some of the first 5 pokemon? It seems rare that such a pokemon would be needed.
• How would a pokemon like that be made? I have no big ideas, but I could start with no useful resistances, no common weaknesses, it is neither significantly better nor worse in field effects, and STABs with good coverage that doesn't require a Magnezone or ScarfTar or Chandelure to take out resistors...
• Do my ideas suck once again?

Explanation: A pokemon that you can just stick on a team. Probably needs some fixing to make anyone use it.

 

[ryik7]

Concept: The alone pokemon

Description: A pokemon that is always great regardless of the rest of its team

Justification: I've been building teams, and it's just fine with five pokemon. Their types fit together perfectly, with 2 resistances or one immunity/absorption for each weakness on the team, I have attacks of most types, supporters, somewhat defensive pokemon, special attackers, physical attackers, maybe mixed ones even. There is no extra pokemon that doesn't seem like all it will do is something already on, or alternatively, not covered by, my team. If there was a pokemon you could just slap on, and it could hold its own, great.

Questions:

• When would people get into such a scenario and be unable to fix it just by tweaking some of the first 5 pokemon? It seems rare that such a pokemon would be needed.
• How would a pokemon like that be made? I have no big ideas, but I could start with no useful resistances, no common weaknesses, it is neither significantly better nor worse in field effects, and STABs with good coverage that doesn't require a Magnezone or ScarfTar or Chandelure to take out resistors...
• Do my ideas suck once again?

Explanation: A pokemon that you can just stick on a team. Probably needs some fixing to make anyone use it.

this reminds me of every poke on my team (froslass, misdreavus, etc.), they have no support but still work great alone, I support this idea.