CAP 12 CAP1 - Part 5c - (Secondary Ability Discussion)

[guddagudda]

As the ATL, I've been following this project very closely, and for good reason. In all of this project, nowhere—and I mean nowhere—have we (reachzero or myself) said that CAP1 should not or cannot be a good tank. As a matter of fact, CAP1 will likely be far superior in its job of grabbing and abusing momentum if it is a successful tank.

No, Regenerator really doesn't solve any problems. Lots of people seem to be too graciously accepting that on average, CAP1 gets more healing from Regenerator than Poison Heal. What they are underplaying the severity of is the fact that CAP1 has to switch out in order to actually get that healing. While this is spectacular for pivot scenarios or using Substitute once, attacking, and fleeing, it gives CAP1 absolutely no staying power whatsoever and makes CAP1 with Regenerator play in much the exact same way as CAP1 with Intimidate. But the big problem is, I'd always rather Intimidate over Regenerator! (And you should too) The Attack drop helps you take on a ton of threats that you simply would not be able to with Regenerator, and allows CAP1 to threaten and/or OHKO them all with Aura Sphere (relevant since CAP1 is slower). Regenerator doesn't provide any of these benefits.

You are thinking about this in a very strange manner not conducive to reality in Pokemon battles. Poison Heal is nothing like Intimidate. Intimidate only gives you a good tanking capacity on the switch-in turn against physical threats. That's great for checking and pivoting in against stuff like Excadrill or Landorus or <insert physical 'mon here>, but leaves you vulnerable the turn after switching in. Intimidate is not like Eviolite in that it constantly alters the stats of a Pokemon, and CAP1 really gains no longevity over multiple turns from the ability. Poison Heal is completely different in that regard, and due to its many assets, helps CAP1 stay in over multiple turns to achieve different momentum-grabbing strategies than it would otherwise be capable of (more successful Toxic stalling, for instance).

I need to emphasize one last time that it is okay for CAP1 to tank, it is okay for CAP1 to stay in for several turns, and it is even more ok for CAP1 to be able to take hits and be a general pain to KO. There are many successful momentum grabbing Pokemon that do these things already, and CAP1 is not going to outclass any of them in a large way with Poison Heal. Please do not misinterpret what we have decided in Concept Assessment, because that may and likely will have an adverse effect on the CAP in general.

You read what you wanted to read and took my points out of context, there is no reason at all for me to reply to this post.

EDIT: As did Paradox. For example, in your first refutation you assume that I "ignore" the paralysis and sleep/freeze. However, the very fucking next sentence I explain how Regen recovers damage and thoughtful team building (Aromatherapy, for instance, and for the second time) completely solves this without limiting the CAP to one item to be able to use it's second ability. Diversity is key in momentum, and Poison Heal is detrimental to this.

 

[SJCrew]

I don't see any strong or valid arguments in favor of CAP being broken with Poison Heal, but a lot of concern is being expressed at the idea of it adding a excessive degree of bulk and not fulfilling the concept, which I frankly agree with.

We don't want it to simply be able to switch into everything and be difficult to take down, we want it to support the team by turning losing situations into winning ones. If you're already down a Pokemon or two and have a weakened Poison Heal CAP, you will not have the power to change the tide of battle. With Prankster, you may still have a trick up your sleeve to prevent setup or a sweep. And the best part of it is, it works in any battle and any situation without adding any more to this Pokemon's tanking ability than what we've established.

Simply put, I think Poison Heal is the wrong decision because it will make this CAP a decisive tank rather than a bulky offensive Pokemon as it was intended. On top of that, it doesn't have the versatility to be able to do things like cripple Blaziken while its health is low, making it easy to revenge by something else on the team, which is an instant momentum shift. We need to think more about fulfilling our objective than making an awesome Pokemon with as few weakpoints as possible.

 

[Stratos]

You read what you wanted to read and took my points out of context, there is no reason at all for me to reply to this post.

EDIT: As did Paradox. For example, in your first refutation you assume that I "ignore" the paralysis and sleep/freeze. However, the very fucking next sentence I explain how Regen recovers damage and thoughtful team building (Aromatherapy, for instance, and for the second time) completely solves this without limiting the CAP to one item to be able to use it's second ability. Diversity is key in momentum, and Poison Heal is detrimental to this.


Will make this a more comprehensive post and argument against PH / for other abilities when I get time (later tonight). Thanks.

Rolling with your example of sleep/freeze and Aromatherapy, that's pretty much the best momentum steal your opponent can make, which ie basically a stamp of failure on the CAP. I mean, Eat Freeze(Waste turn) > Switch to Aromatherapist > Use Aromatherapy is basically saying "Oh sorry opponent here's your momentum back three fold.

On the other hand my thing about toxic heal is that while it does a good job of blocking status and getting heal, it is highly liable to become a (in many ways inferior) Gliscor2.0

 

[Gerard]

I actually have a question regarding Magic Bounce, it's obviously a great ability, one that may even get the Cap in Borderline Broken, but i want to say, how about Colossoil's Rebound?, it seems like Magic Bounce before magic bounce, still nerfed enough like not stopping taunt and stuff like that, seems like a nice second choice and it would help momentum just as much as Magic Bounce with a little more restrictions, and if something with good bulk can use it I don't see it so Broken in this Cap

 

[Destiny Warrior]

I actually have a question regarding Magic Bounce, it's obviously a great ability, one that may even get the Cap in Borderline Broken, but i want to say, how about Colossoil's Rebound?, it seems like Magic Bounce before magic bounce, still nerfed enough like not stopping taunt and stuff like that, seems like a nice second choice and it would help momentum just as much as Magic Bounce with a little more restrictions, and if something with good bulk can use it I don't see it so Broken in this Cap

Pokemon Online is not very conducive to implementing custom abiltiies. In case you didn't notice earlier, no custom abilities are implemented in the client.

 

[Attract]

EDIT: As did Paradox. For example, in your first refutation you assume that I "ignore" the paralysis and sleep/freeze. However, the very fucking next sentence I explain how Regen recovers damage and thoughtful team building (Aromatherapy, for instance, and for the second time) completely solves this without limiting the CAP to one item to be able to use it's second ability. Diversity is key in momentum, and Poison Heal is detrimental to this.

Do you really have to swear?

And anyway, what's so great about Regenerator? The only situation it could possibly be better than Intimidate is when you are switching into special attacks, which you really shouldn't be doing. Recovering off 33% of your HP is nice, sure, but that doesn't mean it will be able to take the 50%+ neutral physical attacks on the switch in, which Intimidate addresses. It really isn't different enough from Intimidate to give it the second ability. Both provide it longevity, one with more bulk and the other with more hp (in a sense), but Regenerator doesn't actually give it the boost while it's in play.

 

[guddagudda]

Do you really have to swear?

And anyway, what's so great about Regenerator? The only situation it could possibly be better than Intimidate is when you are switching into special attacks, which you really shouldn't be doing. Recovering off 33% of your HP is nice, sure, but that doesn't mean it will be able to take the 50%+ neutral physical attacks on the switch in, which Intimidate addresses. It really isn't different enough from Intimidate to give it the second ability. Both provide it longevity, one with more bulk and the other with more hp (in a sense), but Regenerator doesn't actually give it the boost while it's in play.

If you would read the post being argued here, you would see I am not even a proponent of Regenerator. I merely am pointing out how redundant having PH and Intimidate would be. I got quoted to make it seem like I support Regen over PH as if that's all I said.

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

And anyway, what's so great about Regenerator? The only situation it could possibly be better than Intimidate is when you are switching into special attacks, which you really shouldn't be doing. Recovering off 33% of your HP is nice, sure, but that doesn't mean it will be able to take the 50%+ neutral physical attacks on the switch in, which Intimidate addresses. It really isn't different enough from Intimidate to give it the second ability. Both provide it longevity, one with more bulk and the other with more hp (in a sense), but Regenerator doesn't actually give it the boost while it's in play.

I think that's a very good direct argument on why Regenerator wouldn't help this CAP much in the long run. It fits decently well into the concept, but I'd much rather use Intimidate 90% of the time.

 

[NijaSkills]

On the Mold Breaker idea, what use would Mold Breaker actually be? There are no abilities that give a fighting or flying immunity (besides wonder guard, which doesn't concern it), and of the move types that do carry common immunity abilities (ground, fire, electric, water), only electric gives it any real useful coverage, and all the common Volt Absorb/Motor Drive/Lightning Rod are electric-type, so CAP won't want to deal with them anyway.

As for Snow Warning, while it, like Cloud Nine, helps against Weather Teams, it is very situational. Especially as Hail teams are kind of gimmicky at best, with only Blizzard-spam and Stallrein/regi going for it. I think that a Prankster weather-move (such as Hail) would make it more useful in other situations.

 

[guddagudda]

On the Mold Breaker idea, what use would Mold Breaker actually be? There are no abilities that give a fighting or flying immunity (besides wonder guard, which doesn't concern it), and of the move types that do carry common immunity abilities (ground, fire, electric, water), only electric gives it any real useful coverage, and all the common Volt Absorb/Motor Drive/Lightning Rod are electric-type, so CAP won't want to deal with them anyway.

The argument for MB isn't that it allows CAP to hit things that have immunity, but to make your opponent's ability useless (e.g., Sand Throws, Swift Swims, Chlorophyll, Huge Power, etc., etc.).

As for Snow Warning, while it, like Cloud Nine, helps against Weather Teams, it is very situational. Especially as Hail teams are kind of gimmicky at best, with only Blizzard-spam and Stallrein/regi going for it. I think that a Prankster weather-move (such as Hail) would make it more useful in other situations.

Terrible, why would you give a Flying-type priority Hail? Snow Warning makes it immune to the Hail AND doesn't take up a spot, as it activates on the switch in. With two Hail starters, Hail teams may see an increase in usage and become less "gimmicky." But this isn't the main allure of this ability, either. It is designed to stop weather-based momentum and reverse it with a simple switch. This, to me, is a prime example of a great momentum Pokemon in the current metagame.

 

[reachzero]

The secondary ability poll will consist of Prankster, Poison Heal, Regenerator, and Cursed Body.