Data State of the Game - 6/10/2011

[Objection]

Yeah Flamestrike and I discussed this on irc and the current burn system is just needlessly complex. If the battler doesn't specify where it's aiming a potentially burning attack, where do I as a ref put the burn? And while it's obvious with most attacks whether or not they'd get affected, what happens with stuff like Rock Slide? Is there any burn other than 3rd degree that can affect projectile attacks? And what if the pokemon punches with the hand that isn't burnt?

You see the sorts of things refs (and to a certain extent battlers) have to think about with the current system for 1st and 2nd degree burns. Burns don't need to be this complicated. The proposed change to the burn system looks good to me.

 

[Gerard]

where do I as a ref put the burn? And while it's obvious with most attacks whether or not they'd get affected, what happens with stuff like Rock Slide? Is there any burn other than 3rd degree that can affect projectile attacks? And what if the pokemon punches with the hand that isn't burnt?

That's why i try to use flavor where i think a burn should be, or ask the person directly, i thing stuff like rock slide or stone edge (non contact physical moves) are the only non-affected in any way, while stuff like head smash would be afected of the head was burned

The system was put there to nerf burn because it was to good in some ways, why not return it the way it was, but having it last 3/4 rounds, this is something like paralysis, or go down per degree every other (or even 3) round/s, since that would balance them without making it overly complicated (it would also be realistic since even if a burn hurts, it hurts less over time)

 

[Tortferngatr]

That's why i try to use flavor where i think a burn should be, or ask the person directly, i thing stuff like rock slide or stone edge (non contact physical moves) are the only non-affected in any way, while stuff like head smash would be afected of the head was burned

The system was put there to nerf burn because it was to good in some ways, why not return it the way it was, but having it last 3/4 rounds, this is something like paralysis, or go down per degree every other (or even 3) round/s, since that would balance them without making it overly complicated (it would also be realistic since even if a burn hurts, it hurts less over time)

It was too good because it literally halved attack like in-game, which nerfed the damage potential of physical mons sizably.

I would say "yes, remove the part of the body factor." I honestly tend to not give a jack about where the burn is. Just have 1st and second-degree burns affect the entire body.

 

[Deck Knight]

I know I should be wrapping this up, but it appears there are two main culprits of "brokenmons." Thus far the list is supposedly Cylcohm and Gengar.

This is ironic because both of these Pokemon are effective against themselves anyway, so it really is an endless chain. In any event I'm assuming the former is primarily because of good stats + coverage and Bide and the other is because of sufficient offense combined with immense support, since Gengar's only good stat is really Special Attack.

Most of the problem seems to be Bide, but aside from arbitrarily banning it (or like SDS suggested a long time ago, not allowing RBYGSC TMs) I can't think of a way to deal with it.


In any event, here's a summary of what's going up:

Notifications:

1. Allowance of one free Nature change to account for the drastically different mechanics of Speed Natures. A Hidden Power Change will also be allowed on the basis several moves with Acuracy issues are fixed, and HP was used to cover those types.

2. The Attack List now has Priority for each Attack as well as how they interact in multiple Pokemon battle formats. If you have any questions about how Dig, Fly, etc. work then the answers are in there.

3. All Players are to implement Active Slots in their profiles, as well as update their information to Ranks and STABs, as those have all changed.

Here is the Active Slots formatting:

Active Slots:
<Battle Slot 1 Link>
<Battle Slot 2 Link>
<Battle Slot 3 Link>
<Tournament Link> (If the user is in a tournament )
<RP Link (Pokemon RPing)> (If the user is in an RP)
<Additional RP Links (with Pokemon RPing)>
<Gym Link> (If the user is in a Gym match [Mechanics TBD later])

Implementations:

1. Reduction of global effects to 4 rounds.

2. Allow Hidden Power and Nature to be changed for 7 TC each.

3. Changes to Torment and Substitute:

Torment: The Pokemon imbues itself with dark energy and torments the foe, preventing the opponent from using using the same attack twice in a row or from using any moves used in the previous round for six (6) actions.

Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 10 | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Dark | Priority: 0

Substitute: The Pokemon siphons 15, 20, or 25 HP of its life force and creates a Substitute. The Substitute can absorb damage and status attacks for the user. When Substitute is constructed, status effects and secondary effects cannot be inflicted. Taunt and Torment ignore this, however.

Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 12 (15 HP), 18 (20 HP), 24 (25 HP)| Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0

4. Codifying Effect Priority:

Codifying Effect Priority:

Effects can be tricky to ref depending on when they happen in a round. Here is a listing of priority on effects and the dropping of various counters.

Beginning of action: Confusion Stage, Speed Tie Flip (if moves are similar speed/complexity. Otherwise simpler moves like Water Gun beat more complicated moves like Surf)

Beginning of action effects occur before the Pokemon begins that action.

During action: Bide Activation, Bide Release, Confusion Activation, Confusion Damage, Flinch Activation (except Sky Attack), Paralysis Activation, Sleep Stage, Taunt Activation, Disable Activation, Encore Activation, Magnet Rise Activation, Reflect Activation, Light Screen Activation, Safeguard Activation, Telekinesis Activation.

During action effects occur as that action is being used. If a Pokemon is faster, they will be able to activate effects like flinch or benefit from defensive actions.

After action: Poison, Toxic, Leech Seed, Burn, Weather Damage, Partial Trapping Move Damage, Bide Stage, Yawn Stage, Taunt Stage, Disable Stage, Encore Stage, Magnet Rise Stage, Reflect Stage, Light Screen Stage, Telekinesis Stage.

After action effects occur after both Pokemon have completed their actions.

Beginning of next action: Sky Attack Flinch

Sky Attack is the only attack that calculates flinch on the opponent's next action.

Beginning of round: Global effects used on the last action of the previous round.

On the third action of a previous round, a global effect will not activate. Instead it is summoned at the beginning of the next round and has its duration for the full span of all rounds relevant rounds.

End of round: Paralysis Stage, Stat Reset Check, Perish Song Stage, Safeguard Stage, Global Effect Stage.

End of round effects are resets on paralysis, stats, and reduction in the round counters of global effects, Safeguard, and Perish Song.

5. Minor Adjustment to +Spe Natures:

+Speed Natures now have 5 as a minimum on the accuracy boost.

Votes:

1. Changing Speed Divisors.

Change divisors to:

Fully Evolved: 870
Second of Three: 580
First of Two: 435
First of Three: 290

And make values follow normal rounding rules.

This results in a buff to Spe natured Pokemon, especially first and middle evolutions. The cap will remain at 30, however now more FE Pokemon will actually reach it (currently only Ninjask and Deoxys-S do). These are the same mons from the last thread with the updated formulas:

Dratini: (58 * 58)/290 = 11.6, which rounds up to 12. [Dragonair is 11, Dragonite is 10 Acc]

Aron: (35 * 35)/290 = 4.22, which rounds to 4 (but it gets bumped to the minimum +5) [Lairon is 4 Acc and gets boosted to 5, Aggron is 4 Acc and gets boosted to 5.]

Cranidos: (67 * 67)/435 = 10.32, which rounds down to 10. (Compare Rampardos which gets a 5 Accuracy boost)

Ponyta: (104 * 104)/435 = 24.86, which rounds up to 25. (Compare Rapidash, which gets a 17 Accuracy boost)

Onix: (81 * 81)/435 = 15.08, which rounds to 15 (Compare Steelix, which gets a laughable 2 Accuracy boost now boosted to 5)

Scyther: (121 * 121)/435 = 33.65, which hits the cap of 30 (Compare Scizor, which is slower and only gets a 6 Accuracy boost)

Charmeleon: (92 * 92)/580 = 14.59, which rounds up to 15 (Compare Charmander which gets a 19 Acc boost and Charizard, which also gets a 15 Accuracy boost)

Magneton: (81 * 81)/580 = 11.32, which rounds to 11 (Compare Magnemite which gets an 9 Acc boost and Magnezone, which is slower and only gets a 5 Accuracy boost)

Kadabra: (121 * 121)/580 = 25.24, which rounds to 25 (Compare Abra which gets 30 (Cap) Acc boost and Alakazam, which gets a 22 Accuracy boost)

If you're really interested in FEs, this change brings Electrode (140 Base) to +30 Acc, Accelgor breaks the cap, Base 80's get +10 Acc, Base 100's get +15, Base 115's get +20, and Base 130's get +26.

2. Stat Boost change:

Increasing Stat Boosts from +1.5 after W/R to +1.75 after W/R. This would change the energy costs of the stronger stat boosters upward to account for the increased power.

 

[DarkSlay]

Truth is, as the Subway has easily pointed out, what separates a really great Pokemon from a good Pokemon is the movepool. Good stats are nice, even moreso are abilities. But if a Pokemon has access to its whole movepool (which a lot of people have a good number of high move Pokemon), they can be unstoppable in the right circumstance. They can not only find multiple ways of attacking the opponent (both literally and with support moves), but they also limit substitutions. That's probably the most overlooked thing about what makes a great Pokemon. I think this is definitely the case for Gengar and similar Pokemon to it. You try and protect yourself against the Toxic, you leave yourself wide open to the other two status moves it has. You try and stop Disable with Protect, it ends up using Substitute. To be honest, Gengar itself isn't the "problem". It has 90 / 2 / 3 defenses that do indeed make it die fast. Its Special Attack and Speed makes it a good Pokemon. The movepool makes it fantastic. The problem is that Pokemon without much investment in movepools often are in the disadvantage against Pokemon like Gengar.

However, the fault isn't on Gengar, but on the opposing trainer. There's ways around Gengar's moves in ASB, including such things as Magic Coat, Mirror Coat, Protect, Substitute, Disable, Taunt, Encore, and a great number of other moves. Anything can pretty much dent its face in (it usually doesn't last more than three rounds), and careful alternating can lead to confusing even the best of players. It's more of a cautionary lesson: evolving your Pokemon is nice, but in reality, full movepools are the bread and butter of Pokemon and should be a focal point for extra counters and such.

Cyclohm is differently similar. It does indeed limit its opponent's choices against it, but it takes a more offensive approach. It has some really great moves (Thunder, Hurricane, Dragon Pulse, Flamethrower, Surf, etc.) that can pressure a lot of Pokemon for SE hits. Combine that with Sheer Force, and Pokemon go down fast. Again, though, it has its weaknesses, and there are ways around what it does thanks to movepools.

Bide is indeed a slight issue, but Rising_Dusk put it perfectly: it's a "noob slayer". If your Pokemon isn't equipped for it or if you're playing a bit dumb, you're going to fall for it. No one would use Bide as a substitution nor as an action when you're ordering first. It's only used when someone uses two strong attacks in a row. The only valid issue with it is that it often forces people to use up their substitution spot just to prevent Bide every other round. I'm undecided where I stand on it, but I definitely know that Bide is a somewhat situational move. It only makes the Pokemon "almost broken" because of forcing people to watch out for it, not because it can always use the move to success. That should be where the issue lies.

 

[Deck Knight]

There's a pretty broad suite of moves that is in and of itself powerful. Thing is, these moves also have basically universal distribution. Gen 1 Mons are probably the most formidable because one of their always moves is Bide, which is why I brought that up specifically.

Otherwise Toxic, Protect, Substitute, Swagger, Rest, Sleep Talk (except Gen 5), (various Normal attacks), are defined by being strategies any Pokemon can employ. Really the Gen 5 mons get shafted the most on this aspect but the fact remains these strategies are available to every mon, and are sufficiently good moves on their own.

But that's not why I was posting, I was thinking of changing Levitate.

As it stands, Levitate Pokemon are generally disadvantaged in All Abilities battles because aside from Bronzor and Bronzong, none of them have other abilities. This proposal would instead change Levitate from an Innate ability to a Trait. Traits would be a separate ability type in that they would always be active (so basically Levitate/Truant/Slow Start).

These Traits can be Skill Swapped, but the Trait does not disappear from the Pokemon. In a One Ability Battle, a Pokemon with Levitate using Skill Swap will instead steal the opponent's ability, and Role Play will duplicate the opponent's abilities without losing Levitate.

Finally, the Levitate Trait will be applied to Pokemon that already float or fly as a matter of course. Pokemon that are low to the ground will still be hit by Seismic attacks, but these Pokemon will not. Instead they will be a subset with a Command type Levitate.

This would be the result:

Levitate:

Type: Trait

This Pokemon naturally floats above the earth when released or easily takes flight, evading Ground moves like Bulldoze, Dig, Earthquake, and Magnitude. Other Ground moves can still hit. Levitate Pokemon will retain the Levitate trait when they use Skill Swap on an enemy, and will steal the opponent's ability (The user can specify if they want a foe or ally to gain Levitate from a Skill Swap.) If a Pokemon with Levitate uses Role Play, they will copy the opponent's abilities and retain Levitate.

Pokemon with this ability: Gastly, Haunter, Gengar, Koffing, Weezing, Misdreavus, Unown, Vibrava, Flygon, Lunatone, Solrock, Baltoy, Claydol, Duskull, Chimecho, Latias, Latios, Mismagius, Chingling, Bronzor, Bronzong, Carnivine, Rotom, Uxie, Mesprit, Azelf, Cresselia, Giratina (Origin Forme), Tynamo, Eelektrik, Eelektross, Cryogonal, Hydreigon, Rebble, Bolderdash, Stratagem, Nohface.

Pokemon that have the Levitate Trait without the ability (based on anime precedent, advanced wings, etc.):

Beedrill, Venomoth, Mew, Celebi, Dustox, Shedinja, Shuppet, Beldum, Jirachi, Deoxys, Victini, Accelgor.

Levitate Command:

Pokemon with access to the Levitate Command float or rest at an altitude too low to avoid Seismic Attacks. The seismic activity disrupts their field or concentration and they will be struck unless they use this Command or Magnet Rise. In contrast to Magnet Rise, Levitate Command only lasts for three (3) actions and has an energy cost of 5.

Pokemon with the Levitate Command (Based on Anime precedent, basic wings, etc.):

Magnemite, Magneton, Geodude, Staryu, Starmie, Dragonair, Mewtwo, Heracross, Forretress, Scizor, Nincada, Nosepass, Volbeat, Illumise, Banette, Dusclops, Glalie, Metang, Metagross, Magnezone, Froslass, Probopass, Dusknoir, Garchomp, Dialga, Palkia, Darkrai, Arceus, Cottonee, Yamask, Cofagrigus, Solosis, Duosion, Reuniclus, Vanillite, Vanillish, Vanilluxe, Excavalier, Frillish, Jellicent, Litwick, Lampent, Chandelure, Druddigon, Golett, Golurk, Klink, Klang, Klinklang, Larvesta, Volcarona, Reshiram, Zekrom, Genesect.

 

[Temperantia]

Yes, just the shot o common sense that the system needed. Thanks Deck.

 

[Gerard]

On the matter of bide, have you seen flora's battle:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3608763&postcount=56

Her gengar used bide and OHKOed the opposing Zweilous, AFTER ONE TURN, it's not that Zwelious was wrong, yes he could have predicted bide a little bit, but really, if you go first, you can't use powerful attacks?, this really is restrictive, why isn't Bide nerfed like Magic Coat and Counter, both getting to x1.5 instead of doubling the damage taken, since really it is a long Metal Burst that it's extremely hard to stop without the right move (protect, that's it), so why not to make them all the same?, that could help nerfing Cylcohm and Gengar since both have it

The thing with Gengar is, he has such a wide movepool he cannot be predicted, if i use my substitution like "use protect on last action if bide is used", then i'm totally open to taunt, if i use "use magic coat if he uses taunt" he can sleep you, "use protect if he uses pain split" bang, he use perish song, that's why i think he is to hard to stop sometimes, he is also immune to toxic and is fast enough to not care about most status, making him only really stopable through direct attacks, and then he can confuse/burn/toxic/sleep and pain split to recover and do massive damage with unressisted coverage

PS: in the levitate command, should pokemon which previously had levitate count as being able to use it? (since applying this logic (dusclops and dusknoir), the Kitsunoh get's to levitate on command), and i thing geodude should be added

 

[Objection]

Dusclops doesn't really float though.

 

[Deck Knight]

On the matter of bide, have you seen flora's battle:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3608763&postcount=56

Her gengar used bide and OHKOed the opposing Zweilous, AFTER ONE TURN, it's not that Zwelious was wrong, yes he could have predicted bide a little bit, but really, if you go first, you can't use powerful attacks?, this really is restrictive, why isn't Bide nerfed like Magic Coat and Counter, both getting to x1.5 instead of doubling the damage taken, since really it is a long CounterCoat, that it's extremely hard to stop without the right move (protect, that's it), so why not to make them all the same?, that could help nerfing Cylcohm and Gengar since both have it

PS: in the levitate command, should pokemon which previously had levitate count as being able to use it? (since applying this logic (dusclops and dusknoir), the Kitsunoh get's to levitate on command), and i thing geodude should be added

So basically Gengar sacrificed 52 HP and 58 Energy to KO Zweilous. Sucks that it was a Subway match and all, but really, Gengar paid its dues to get that KO, and if the match continued it would either have to Chill that round or the next. By the way, if you use Protect as your last action you'll eat up a ton of Energy (42 in this case), but won't be KO'd by Bide.

I realize it's annoying to deal with, but as it stands Bide is basically an action that takes up your entire round.

 

[Gerard]

So basically Gengar sacrificed 52 HP and 58 Energy to KO Zweilous. Sucks that it was a Subway match and all, but really, Gengar paid its dues to get that KO.

Fair enough, but gengar is still fast enough to cripple the upcoming poke in a normal battle, hypnosis become reliable with a +Spd nature (something almost everyone runs) and even beeing able to full attack or pain split and leave another poke half dead (consider this is a 1 poke vs 1 1/2 pokes winning), predicting gengar is extremely hard since what's worst, being sleep or taunted (and then sleep), or confused, etc..., he can easily cripple any poke with the right move (which he has more than enough to do so)

 

[Deck Knight]

Fair enough, but gengar is still fast enough to cripple the upcoming poke in a normal battle, hypnosis become reliable with a +Spd nature (something almost everyone runs) and even beeing able to full attack or pain split and leave another poke half dead (consider this is a 1 poke vs 1 1/2 pokes winning), predicting gengar is extremely hard since what's worst, being sleep or taunter (and then sleep), or confused, etc..., he can easily cripple any poke with the right move (which he has more than enough to do so)

So Gengar is operating basically as it does in-game? E.G. it's an annoying pain in the rear end that takes hits like a wet paper bag and draws its strength primarily by being unpredictable combined with impressive special attacks and Focus Punch if you're Blissey?

Dusk and his Subway people play to win, so you have to be extra careful. Don't come out swinging with your most powerful attacks when your opponent has full energy. Lets say I were to make Bide 1.5x. I imagine someone would still complain Zweilous took 78 damage in one round, and if the EC were kept the same rather than being lowered Gengar would have taken 52 HP and 45 EN. (If lowered to Damage/3, it'd cost Gengar 32 EN) That might make someone feel better, and you'd get the third attack in, but Gengar would still have punishing attacks. Bide isn't really worth it unless its punishing enough to make up for the fact it eats up your whole round.

In the case of that subway Battle, if Bide were only 1.5x, Gengar would have eaten another 29 Damage. So Zweilous would lose 78 HP, Gengar would lose 81. Why would you ever Bide if you could never outpace your foe? Bide only gets to absorb a maximum of two attacks usually, so it needs to do more than 1.5x, which in ideal circumstances would be the same as using 3 actions. This effectively makes Bide damage neutral in the exact situation where you would want to use Bide.

 

[Pallas Athena]

I have always viewed Bide as an insanely good move that is broken in that it is one of very few moves where the opponent having it forces a major change in strategy. Combined with taunt, it becomes almost impossible to move first without getting majorly hurt. Also, even if Bide takes half of your health and energy to score a KO, it is much better than losing the match-up or finishing with very low HP. The problem is, I don't have a solution to Bide that doesn't set a bad precedent or leaves the move as actually useful in certain situations. Setting a damage cap of 70 or 60 is the best I can think of. While it's still a lot of damage for a round, it is not unrealistic in certain cases.

 

[Dogfish44]

You guys do know that a match can have a damage cap in it's rules, right? It's like if you don't like sleep, ban it. There is no real reason to nerf moves to this extent - If you don't like it, ban it.

Now onto a subject on which I've been ignored several times:

Substitute.

If I'm not going to be able to get in peoples heads that static HP values for substitute is good, then I'm gonna give people some food for thought:

Substitute NEVER costs any HP. Substitute, upon it's destruction, will have acted as a net GAIN in overhall HP or an equal amount of HP lost

Freaky, huh? Since Substitute takes hits for you, it's never possibble for substitute to cost HP - you simply lose it upfront, rather than later on. Substitute ALSO acts as a Safeguard for a couple of rounds - so the move gives a Safeguard, AND gives an overall net gain in HP. Hence, I am calling for an increase to the amount of Energy substitute takes - Even if the attacker does 1 more damage to the substitute than the sub's HP, it has given an overall increase in the substitute user's HP - making it, in effect, a healing move.

At this stage I am NOT calling for a nerf to substitute in it's effect, just an increase in EN (Srom Sub HP - 3 to Sub HP + 3 would be a good value).


EDIT: 23:50:04 PM ~ <reffish44> Another way to describe substitute - A protect for faster mon which increases overall HP and acts as a short term safeguard

 

[Lord Jesseus]

On Levitators without having Levitate: Heracross also has wings and anime precedent for flight.
eg:
http://archives.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/e/e7/Ash_Heracross_Horn_Attack.png
edit: never mind its in the list, i missed it

 

[Deck Knight]

Time to wrap this up.