...there goes my winning streak... :(
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[Standard] Mafia Rising - Game over, the Second Mafia wins - Postgame
- Thread starter Staraptor Call
- Start date
Andy Snype
Mr. Music
yeah... the one time you tried to lead people. better just stick to doing nothing.
I think he did, Snype referred to them when he was "leader" and was posting.
He was lynched d1 in muppets and subbed out of luigis mansion (his team won both games)
im like a good luck charm :), also stevensnype said that i betrayed lightwolf in muppet mafia, but in truth, he betrayed me by lynching me while i was in his team, i can't blame him though...
I'm so sorry for your loss.
(oblivious to sarcasm) no biggie :)
Mafia Rising Postgame
Introduction:
My design of Mafia Rising began when I considered that while death is usually an on/off, either/or deal in mafia, it doesn't have to be. I wanted to host a game where the boundary between life and death was porous - one where users could be resurrected, deadtalking was allowed, and some roles might even gain powers after dying. There was a game years ago, Chaos Mafia, that was similar with regard to alliance, and had multiple recruiters. I decided to make my game somewhat similar, but with resurrectors instead of recruiters, and not with Chaos Mafia's high power levels.
I included roles that had never been used before, but going by the theory that complex roles make people miss deadlines, I mostly made them single-target, single-effect roles like Douglas Hofstadter. I decided to make a somewhat large, easily united village with powerful roles, but make it hard for the village to get information. To prevent everyone from immediately claiming to the first villager to die, I delayed cardflip for one cycle. Since the village resurrectors can only resurrect users who have just been killed, there is the opportunity for a mafioso to mole the village and get resurrected. I expected the game to take a long time with all the resurrects, so I used a Unicycle format to speed it up. And items are a pain for hosts to keep track of, so I didn't include them.
A lot of users have been saying I made the village underpowered, but if a few key things had turned out differently the village would have won. Some important village roles were inactive, and other roles weren't used they way I intended them to be used. First, I gave the village a designated leader role, Gregor Samsa, and gave it to dak, probably the most experienced village leader on Smogon. But since dak wanted to be subbed out and I couldn't find a sub for him, the designated leader role never stepped up to lead. Also, the mafia hit both village resurrectors with lucky randkills early in the game, keeping them from resurrecting anyone. Tsuk, who had a role that was supposed to be used to resurrect the resurrectors, was inactive and missed his opportunity. And Quagsires, whom I had expected to mostly kill mafia, didn't have his powers activated until late in the game.
Documents:
Main document
Spreadsheet
Roles:
The First Mafia:
My design of Mafia Rising began when I considered that while death is usually an on/off, either/or deal in mafia, it doesn't have to be. I wanted to host a game where the boundary between life and death was porous - one where users could be resurrected, deadtalking was allowed, and some roles might even gain powers after dying. There was a game years ago, Chaos Mafia, that was similar with regard to alliance, and had multiple recruiters. I decided to make my game somewhat similar, but with resurrectors instead of recruiters, and not with Chaos Mafia's high power levels.
I included roles that had never been used before, but going by the theory that complex roles make people miss deadlines, I mostly made them single-target, single-effect roles like Douglas Hofstadter. I decided to make a somewhat large, easily united village with powerful roles, but make it hard for the village to get information. To prevent everyone from immediately claiming to the first villager to die, I delayed cardflip for one cycle. Since the village resurrectors can only resurrect users who have just been killed, there is the opportunity for a mafioso to mole the village and get resurrected. I expected the game to take a long time with all the resurrects, so I used a Unicycle format to speed it up. And items are a pain for hosts to keep track of, so I didn't include them.
A lot of users have been saying I made the village underpowered, but if a few key things had turned out differently the village would have won. Some important village roles were inactive, and other roles weren't used they way I intended them to be used. First, I gave the village a designated leader role, Gregor Samsa, and gave it to dak, probably the most experienced village leader on Smogon. But since dak wanted to be subbed out and I couldn't find a sub for him, the designated leader role never stepped up to lead. Also, the mafia hit both village resurrectors with lucky randkills early in the game, keeping them from resurrecting anyone. Tsuk, who had a role that was supposed to be used to resurrect the resurrectors, was inactive and missed his opportunity. And Quagsires, whom I had expected to mostly kill mafia, didn't have his powers activated until late in the game.
Documents:
Main document
Spreadsheet
Roles:
The First Mafia:
This role was meant to be a weaker version of a normal lynch redirect. When Aura Guardian claimed to Steven Snype he forgot to edit the title of his PM, which said he was First Mafia. Aura Guardian was quickly lynched and never got to use his ability.
This role was a slightly stronger inspector - the hook only applied to resurrects and kills. Out of all the players in Mafia Rising, General Spoon was the most active. He would frequently send in the team's actions, even after death. Almost every cycle he would PM me and Lady Salamence to make sure we had gotten his team's actions when they failed. However, General Spoon acted suspiciously on Cycle 2, leading to his lynch. I advise future hosts to send players PMs when their actions fail, so that players don't have to bug the hosts to make sure the hosts got their PMs.
Like General Spoon, HSA often sent in PMs for inactive teammates. He even blocked a kill. HSA didn't act too suspiciously, was consistently active, and didn't make any big mistakes, so he played fairly well overall.
I'm surprised that a role this simple hasn't been used before, as far as I know. It usually acts as a hooker, except it's more powerful when targeting killers, persuaders, and silencers, and weaker when targeting protection roles. Imperfectluck wanted to be subbed out almost immediately, and Shining Latios had to replace him. General Spoon gave me some flak for putting a complete newbie in the place of a veteran player, but Shining Latios was P1 and was the only sub I could find. Shining Latios played very badly. Destiny Warrior moled him completely, tricking him into giving up his whole team's role PMs. Destiny Warrior didn't even have to write a fake role PM, he just claimed to be a neutral who had to complete a spreadsheet. Destiny Warrior even convinced Shining Latios he was going to be recruited by the village, which shows just how gullible SL was. In the end, the Second Mafia tricked him into godkilling himself.
Darkpenguin67 wasn't very active. His teammates mostly sent in PMs for him, and he did little of note until he was lynched Cycle 3. He did, however, silence the_sea_prince on Cycle 1 to keep him from leading, which actually helped the village.
The Second Mafia:
This role, taken from Metal Gear Solid Tactical Game, is a stronger version of a standard bodyguard. The redirection came into play once, when billymills redirected a kill from Quagsires to Acklow. However, billymills wasn't very active, and teammates often had to send in PMs for him.
This role was designed to mole the village, a fact which Steven Snype picked up on right away. After "proving" his fake village announcer role and lynching Aura Guardian, Steven Snype was able to gather claims from all but seven users. This information proved immensely valuable for the Second Mafia, especially since it included claims from village power roles like the bodyguard and resurrector. But at the beginning of Cycle 2, Steven Snype was in such a rush to post that he didn't even wait to get his results. His teammate Da Letter El persuaded Steven Snype to make them both look clean, but Steven Snype didn't get the result that his persuasion was a full-post persuasion. He broke persuasion and was godkilled. This is partially my fault for being vague in the wording of Da Letter El's role PM, but Steven Snype still should have waited until results were out, as all players are supposed to do. However, Steven Snype continued to mole the village even after being godkilled, and occasionally sent in PMs for idle teammates. For moling the village so well, Steven Snype has earned the award for Best Mafioso.
In retrospect, I made this role too powerful. The Second Mafia was supposed to be focused on gathering information, so I took extra precautions to make sure the inspector didn't die too early. But considering that ginganinja could have been resurrected when there were fewer than ten players left to vote for him, his protection was overpowered. ginganinja played this role well. He was consistently active and highly involved in the team's discussions, and often sent in lists of actions for his team.
Note to future hosts: don't use full post persuaders. Even after Steven Snype was godkilled, people kept on breaking persuasion. In all, four users were godkilled because of this role. Da Letter El used this role effectively; he was able to pull off a successful Trial, which solidified the Second Mafia's hold on the game. He was also very active, and sent in multiple sets of team actions.
This role also fits with the Second Mafia's moling/info gathering theme. Maxim played well despite being new, despite his occasional inactivity. He did a good job of appearing clean, and was marked as village in Acklow's spreadsheet all game.
The Village:
This was supposed to be a dedicated village leader role. The user with this role was supposed to clean himself Cycle 1 by asking everyone to vote for him, and then go on to gather claims. As such, I gave this role to dak, one of the most experienced village leaders on Smogon. However, dak didn't actually want to play and had been signed up as a joke. I couldn't find a sub for him since there were four other games going on at the time, so he never stepped up to lead. By the time I had found a sub, the Second Mafia was already far ahead.
One half of the village resurrector duo. Paperblade claimed to Steven Snype and was killed Cycle 2; he was never able to make a resurrection. After his role PM was revealed, Paperblade collaborated with Acklow and with other dead users to lead the village.
This vigilante was a major source of the village's power, but didn't end up killing anyone. The only kill Ditto attempted was aimed at mafia, but by Ditto's bad luck the mafioso he tried to kill was BPV. Ditto never claimed to Steven Snype, and was namekilled Cycle 2. He played well during the short time he was alive.
This was the village's other inspector role, and was the more powerful of the two due to its ability to resurrect the vigilantes and the other resurrector. If it had been used on Neo, this role would have given the village two kills every other night. But zorbees, like Paperblade, was never able to resurrect anyone. He was namekilled on Cycle 1. zorbees was one of the users who never claimed to Steven Snype.
I expected this role to be used in either of two ways. First, it could be used to find information on people who either didn't claim or gave suspicious claims, thus increasing the chance of lynching mafia. Second, it could be used on the same three people three nights in a row to hopefully achieve the same effect as three inspections in three nights. Acklow used the first strategy. His targets were usually either suspected mafiosi or people who didn't claim. Anonymous was also a good role for leading the village, and Acklow took advantage of that. On Cycle 2 after Steven Snype was godkilled, Acklow stepped up to lead the village. While gathering claims, he discovered a glitch in the forums that could potentially let him tell real claims from fake ones. If text that has been copied and pasted from Google Docs to Smogon is italicized, color tags appear at every line break. This error let Acklow find the fake claims of Aura Guardian and General Spoon, but Da Letter El and HSA's fakes appeared real and Blue_Tornado's real PM appeared fake. As village leader, Acklow only ever lynched mafia and gave good orders to his teammates. Acklow's only misplay was claiming to Steven Snype, which didn't matter because he publicly revealed his role. Acklow has earned the award for Best Villager.
This was the village's main info-gathering role. I expected it to be used almost exclusively as an alliance checker. In the short time he was alive, Blue_Tornado made two prophecies. The first probably would have been better used for alliance-checking a player, but the second was pivotal in confirming that Steven Snype was mafia. Blue_Tornado never claimed to Steven Snype.
LifeAdmiral was inactive for most of the game. Before he died he only sent in one action, but it was an important one. He hooked Da Letter El, which probably saved the village from a godkill because DLE was persuading the inactive Tsuk.
For the most part, KingofKongs played solidly. He was active, claimed to Acklow, and even blocked a kill with his protection. But he claimed to Steven Snype, which led to his being killed Cycle 3.
This was a troll role, based on a similar role in floW aifaM. I gave it to Destiny Warrior because I thought he might be troll-rolled Cycle 1. Destiny Warrior picked the name Fox McCloud, after his role name in my earlier game Lord of the Flies Mafia. While this made his identity obvious, it didn't matter much because people could tell it was him just by looking at the signup list. However, Destiny Warrior lived up to his trolling duty by moling Shining Latios. He claimed to be a neutral who needed to complete a spreadsheet of all users' alliances, and even though the claim wasn't all that believable, Shining Latios sent Destiny Warrior his complete team PM.
the sea prince didn't play very well. He asked to lead the village Cycle 0, making him look somewhat scummy but mostly just clueless. the sea prince only sent in one action the entire game, and was godkilled because he was too inactive to post what he had been persuaded to post.
This role was put in the game to make sure the village wasn't devastated by losing its killing power early. But Walrein, like Ditto, was never able to successfully kill a mafioso despite targeting scum. He died when Shining Latios reflected his kill back on him, leaving Walrein quite puzzled as to why he was killed with his own flavor. Walrein also claimed to both Steven Snype and Acklow.
I stole a few different games' roles, including this role from Dude. This role was supposed to act as a backup for the village, copying powerful village roles like the vigilantes. It was particularly supposed to back up the resurrectors (the resurrectors' previous-cycle restriction would have been voided for a dinosaur copy). However, Tsuk was too inactive to ever use his role, and the village was under enemy control when the resurrectors died. He also never claimed to either village leader. Tsuk wanted to be subbed out, but I couldn't find a sub for him until after he died.
This role was meant to check whether users' flavor conflicted with the PMs they claimed. The flavor for this role was fun to write - it included messages such as "has a strong desire to return to the womb" for Neo and "has repressed homosexual urges" for Fred Phelps. Cereza wasn't very active and only used his role three times; he claimed to neither Steven Snype nor Acklow, leading him to be marked as suspicious in the latter's spreadsheet.
This role would be more useful on the mafia than than on the village; it was originally going to be a mafia role, but was switched with John Cage to make the First Mafia less powerful. This role didn't see much use, which is due to both bob_squob's inactivity and the role's relative lack of utility for the village. bob_squob only sent in one action all game, which ended up doing nothing.
Neutral:
A lot of people have been calling this role broken, and they're probably right - the parallels to the Samara role from Chaos Mafia are easy to see. In fact, before the Second Mafia started taking control of lynches, I thought Quagsires was the most likely to win. I had intended for every alliance, including Kerrigor, to have an equal chance of winning, so I made Kerrigor stronger than the average wolf and erred on the side of more power. It is in this role that the game's theme is most fully realized. I expected the user with this role to write a fake wolf role PM that explains the role's uninspectability and lack of role PM reveal. I then expected that user to intentionally look scummy and get lynched early. Right before dying, I thought Kerrigor would post the fake in the main thread along with a plea to stop the lynch, which of course would not be effective. Then the killing spree would begin. When designing the game I had expected Kerrigor to mostly kill mafia, so I made the mafia more powerful to compensate. While the village is no threat at all to Kerrigor after the resurrectors die, the mafia's resurrection power is decentralized, so I thought Kerrigor would tend to kill mafia. Quagsires, however, did not use this role as I had intended. He acted as if he were a normal mafioso and didn't try to get lynched early by making some "mistake." Quagsires wrote a not-very-believable fake mayor PM, which led the Second Mafia and the village to both mark him as mafia in their spreadsheets. At one point he even claimed to get powers after death, which is not a good claim for someone who looks scummy and is trying to die. Although nobody tried to kill him until Cycle 5, Quagsires was the most-targeted user in the entire game. He was targeted a total of fifteen times over the course of the game, not counting the final cycle. Since I had relied on Kerrigor's kills to balance the mafia teams but Quagsires didn't die until late in the game, the mafia teams were more powerful than I had intended.
Awards:
Best mafioso: Steven Snype
Best villager: Acklow
Best move: Destiny Warrior moling Shining Latios
Most active: General Spoon
Worst luck: Walrein
Funniest moment: 99 bottles of beer on the wall
MVP: Acklow
Conclusion:
In Mafia Rising, many things I'd planned for didn't happen as intended. The wolf didn't die early, the designated leader role didn't lead, the village resurrectors didn't resurrect anyone, the vigilantes never succeeded with their kills, and some of the less experienced players played better than the "big names." But by no means was the game a failure - the players often used their roles in creative ways and made the game more interesting than it would have been if they had just done what I'd thought they'd do. I hope you had fun playing or watching this game.
I must say, this game was quite fun. (unlike that absolute mess that MUDS is :P)
Yeah, the first couple of cycles I didn't exactly know what my role was supposed to accomplish, besides finding killers or some such rubbish, but I found it to be the perfect moling role.
Really, my plan this game was just to survive and mole the village as long as possible so as to collect info.
I did make a couple blunders though. You see, Steven Snype had told Acklow that I targeted him cycle 0 and saw him target the same people. But I really had targeted Da Letter El, and when Acklow pressured me to give him my result pm, I just decided to give him the real results. (I did know Steven had lied to Acklow based on our spreadsheet, but he didn't mention whom and I figured leaving would just give acklow a reason to lynch me).
Another minor screw up I made was giving Acklow my actual role pm (with the obvious stuff edited out of course). I figured village tracker was the same thing that mine was, but I also inserted the other part of my role, watcher. Luckily, nobody seemed to notice.
As it turns out, I was active for most of the game, but didn't really send in too many actions myself lest I wreck Steven Snype's schemes.
I started to panic when Spoon started to lead, since we had him pinned down as first mafia. But after Snype supposedly found that glitch (I didn't see any color tags...) we basically won at that point.
Meh, that's just my two cents.
Yeah, the first couple of cycles I didn't exactly know what my role was supposed to accomplish, besides finding killers or some such rubbish, but I found it to be the perfect moling role.
Really, my plan this game was just to survive and mole the village as long as possible so as to collect info.
I did make a couple blunders though. You see, Steven Snype had told Acklow that I targeted him cycle 0 and saw him target the same people. But I really had targeted Da Letter El, and when Acklow pressured me to give him my result pm, I just decided to give him the real results. (I did know Steven had lied to Acklow based on our spreadsheet, but he didn't mention whom and I figured leaving would just give acklow a reason to lynch me).
Another minor screw up I made was giving Acklow my actual role pm (with the obvious stuff edited out of course). I figured village tracker was the same thing that mine was, but I also inserted the other part of my role, watcher. Luckily, nobody seemed to notice.
As it turns out, I was active for most of the game, but didn't really send in too many actions myself lest I wreck Steven Snype's schemes.
I started to panic when Spoon started to lead, since we had him pinned down as first mafia. But after Snype supposedly found that glitch (I didn't see any color tags...) we basically won at that point.
Meh, that's just my two cents.
It's in Chrome. When you paste the text from Google Docs into the rich text editor (default post editor), it retains the formatting Google Docs applies. Since Chrome apparently does not support the rich text editor, it reverts to the plain text editor, which shows the tags in the Quick Reply box under the PM. You can see the tags in Firefox and other browsers by clicking the
Hosts can circumvent this exploit by:
- writing their PMs in Notepad or a similar text editor and hand-writing the tags if any italics or bold is necessary
- writing in Google Docs then pasting to Notepad then pasting to Smogon (strips the formatting, since Notepad doesn't support it) and hand-writing any needed tags
- pasting the PM from Google Docs into the plain text editor, which can be selected in the Edit Options page in the User Control Panel or with the
- selecting the whole PM and clicking the
The plain text editor is shown selected here (rich text editor is called WYSIWYG editor):
And here's a picture of the colour tags:
In games with this exploit, players can fake their PMs by writing their fakes in Google Docs or manually applying the tags, though the latter has more room for error.
It's only fair everyone knows. :)
And while exploits like this are neat or whatever, they're not strategically sound anyway as shown, because DLE and HSA fixed their fakes while BT's PM came up as a fake, even before it was publicised.
From my point of view this game went from bad (Aura Guardian not editing his PM title) to worse (color tags) to pretty damn awful (hailflameblast asking Shining Latios for our team PM) pretty quickly. Though really, even if I wasn't found out through lacking color tags in my fake (therefore hopefully allowing me to lead the village in favor of the deposed Steven Snype), I would have been exposed anyways by virtue of having the misfortune to have Shining Latios sub onto my team.
Of course I didn't at that time know that we were doomed to lose the moment this jackass subbed in.
EDIT: Believe it or not, I don't think our team ever requested to have the kid subbed out for somebody who wasn't a total moron.
Of course I didn't at that time know that we were doomed to lose the moment this jackass subbed in.
EDIT: Believe it or not, I don't think our team ever requested to have the kid subbed out for somebody who wasn't a total moron.
I must say that I really did enjoy this game. I don't think I've laughed so hard in a mafia game as I did in this one. My PM trying to convince the_sea_prince not to post was amazing, and negotiating with shining latios, while it did take a while, was quite fun as well. And then there was getting him to post something random while persuaded which was pretty excellent. I think I'm actually the only one this game who followed my posting persuasion perfectly, so that's something to be proud of! (I am not sure if i was SL targeted n3 or if tsp was protecting acklow; i had assumed the latter but either are possible). The village KNOWING that I had used my trial and STILL messing that up was pretty hilarious, too. The HD godkill made me sad though :(. He would have given us a majority and we wouldn't have needed to vote for quagsires.....
This game was like Troll 2. It was so bad it was good...for me, anyway.
Honestly, the design with Kerrigor I think is fine; it becomes slightly obvious where the extra kill is coming from when quagsire's role PM doesn't show. The only reason we lynched him was that we were afraid that he was the one that killed walrein. And while I would have loved to ask walrein if he killed himself (he probably would have told me since I doubt he would have seen the significance of it), I never got around to it. So we worked under the assumption that quagsires was some role that got to choose to hide or kill, since that's a wolf role I've seen used before and would make at least some sense. I and Steven had originally planned to leave Quagsires alone until the very end because at first we assumed he had nothing or was at the very least weaker while alive.
Steven and I did a lot of the general planning on roles and general meta of the game, which was fun. Ginganinja also did a pretty good job with planning, too, but I talked to him less than I did steven. billy was pretty inactive but helped out a bit at the beginning and a bit at the end, and maxim did a really good job of staying under the village radar especially considering this is one of his first (if not his very first) game of mafia on smogon.
EDIT: Forgot to mention that ginga did a good job of moling or at the very least being trusted up until the middle of day 4, as well as being a bit of an accomplice in the sea prince thing.
Good job team, it was fun working with you!
This game was like Troll 2. It was so bad it was good...for me, anyway.
Honestly, the design with Kerrigor I think is fine; it becomes slightly obvious where the extra kill is coming from when quagsire's role PM doesn't show. The only reason we lynched him was that we were afraid that he was the one that killed walrein. And while I would have loved to ask walrein if he killed himself (he probably would have told me since I doubt he would have seen the significance of it), I never got around to it. So we worked under the assumption that quagsires was some role that got to choose to hide or kill, since that's a wolf role I've seen used before and would make at least some sense. I and Steven had originally planned to leave Quagsires alone until the very end because at first we assumed he had nothing or was at the very least weaker while alive.
Steven and I did a lot of the general planning on roles and general meta of the game, which was fun. Ginganinja also did a pretty good job with planning, too, but I talked to him less than I did steven. billy was pretty inactive but helped out a bit at the beginning and a bit at the end, and maxim did a really good job of staying under the village radar especially considering this is one of his first (if not his very first) game of mafia on smogon.
EDIT: Forgot to mention that ginga did a good job of moling or at the very least being trusted up until the middle of day 4, as well as being a bit of an accomplice in the sea prince thing.
Good job team, it was fun working with you!
Just like to point out that I noticed these before the game started and wrote my pm out of my original because of paranoia. IIRC I said something about it in our channel too, but I never bother to log anything unless it's extremely important or funny.
Speaking of funny logs, I have a couple of SL logs but I am unsure whether or not I'm mean enough to...
Don't imo.
The best log was lost, so let them all die.
The best log was lost, so let them all die.
It's not one about girls, although I still hate you for losing that. There was enough gold in that to back up the amount of money neexes to pay our debt.
Nah, what I'm talking about is the psychotic rampage before we let you in.
Agreeing with DLE here that this was pretty fun. I too found out about that colour tags and sent in my fake which led Acklow to straight up tell me that I was clean. That all came apart however when Maxim sent in his actual results to Acklow which showed me targeting Quagsires instead of the person I had told Acklow to target. Still, I was able to survive a little longer, just enough for DLE to use his Trial which basically sealed the game. I assume that the village knew most of the second mafia by then but it was too late. We basically had lynch control.
Quagsires role was annoying I guess. My role basically gave the Second Mafia time at the end to figure out what Quagsires was. I gotta say it was pretty stressful at the final stages of the game wondering what the hell to do. Basically, thanks to me surviving for a little while my actual plan was to inspect Quagsires and throw a kill and lynch vote at him. Had all those failed I would have ressurrected him and threw everything but the kitchen sink at him as well. So yeah id like to think that without my BPV role Quagsires could have very easily won this game.
Quagsires role was annoying I guess. My role basically gave the Second Mafia time at the end to figure out what Quagsires was. I gotta say it was pretty stressful at the final stages of the game wondering what the hell to do. Basically, thanks to me surviving for a little while my actual plan was to inspect Quagsires and throw a kill and lynch vote at him. Had all those failed I would have ressurrected him and threw everything but the kitchen sink at him as well. So yeah id like to think that without my BPV role Quagsires could have very easily won this game.
imbalanced as fuck
90% of the village being less dimwitted would have made things easier too, as well as mafia not randing a resurrector c1...
90% of the village being less dimwitted would have made things easier too, as well as mafia not randing a resurrector c1...