np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)

[Razza]

Auto-weather abilities have to be voted on together, if you separate weathers then the ones who don't get banned will be overused and will dominate the metagame. It's all or nothing.

Also, WTF at not including ability combos (sand stream + sand rush screams out loud). Seriously how many times has that been mentioned?

In any case my team will benefit heavily even if I will not vote since a Exadrill and possibly other weathers will get banned, but that's what I had on mind for now.

Ability combos should have been listed Jabba/Bloo.

Aldarons proposal was THE only complex ban, all tier bad are just straight item ability or pokemon or move bans.

Also the whole "even if I don't vote my team will benefit" is exactly the reason te suspect testing is being scrapped, we should vote for things that improve our metagame not our teams or ladder scores.

 

[Thatsjustpeachy]

All this talk about getting rid of rain, exca, etc is really going to bring more power to stall teams. Sand teams will have more trouble getting rid of hazards without their primary revenge killer/spinner, Hail stall+Sandstall will be better off knowing they will control the weather for residual damage everyturn(assuming a drought/rain ban), and stall will definitely benefit from the lack of volcarona/reuniclus(2 major stall breakers). So sad that many people dont think about the consequences of their ban proposal and only think about their own battling preferences and teams. Im voting under the opinions of alot of people i talked to, specifically the other voters/good battlers and most agree that the metagame is pretty much fine the way it is. Some sun teams do good, some rain teams do good, some sand teams do good, and some stall teams do good. We have a pretty good balance(except for Hyper Offense) and tbh we will never get to a perfect metagame so why disrupt a pretty good balance?

 

[New World Order]

@ KurashiDragon

Wait. So you think banning weather will have a similar effect to the banning of Salamence and Latias?

Losing Salamence and Latias meant that heavy offensive teams were less dominant and still useable. Whereas stall teams were more dominant but not even close to broken.

Losing permaweather means there will be playstyles that disappear altogether. As I've posted in a previous post, you lose 8 playstyles. 10 if you count hail.

@ peachy

After Techniloom gets released, even Hyper Offense will be useable. They've just gotten someone who can KO Excadrill straight up.

 

[Negi]

and Stallrein and stop counting.

Thought about him, but he'd get decimated in OU, even with hail support.

 

[MetaGross66]

Because it's not a pretty good balance. I'll admit, when building a weatherless team I was restricted in the Pokemon I could put into the team mostly because of Drizzle and Excadrill (I took little consideration in everything else). Also, who cares if it's bringing more power to stall teams? Isn't that a good thing considering I have yet to see any good ones appear (or at least more than weather...)?

Also, SJ Crew pretty much hit the nail on the head. I can't say sand and hail are not broken based on my experience in the 4th Generation. Saying such a thing would only mean I'm wrong because this is a totally different generation of Pokemon. However, I do believe they are not broken this generation and don't deserve to be banned because of Drizzle (and to a lesser extent, Drought). Actually, Sandstorm's prevalence only serves to show how centralizing Rain is since it's pretty much the only form of protection Stall and some semi-offensive teams have from those super powered Hydro Pumps (admit it, Ninetales sucks...).

 

[SlimMan]

Don't really care about current arguments (although weathers should be voted on separately imo), but I'd like to point out some pretty big flaws in some arguments.

Oh, could you then tell me what was the overcentralised team in the end of DPP where we finally had a perfect metagame ?

Kevin Garrett Stall.
gg

Oh, and some people would say that metgame wasn't perfect. I thought that FWG cores were boring. But it was completely balanced, I'll give you that.

Do you want a repeat of UU in OU?

My gosh. PLEASE tell me this was a joke post.

 

[Ninja_13]

I personally can care less about being number one of the ladder, but I can't play B/w UU or DPPt OU with a poison heal gliscor, can I? The point I am trying to make is OU is the standard meta, we have a right to try and shape it to how we feel is fit. The goal is to make a desirable metagame, you push want you want and we will push what we want. What it comes down too is what the voters wants, and if they listen to your post and not mine, that is their choice, but I will still voice myself hoping they will listen to what I want, and maybe they will consider it. You should do the same, instead of telling us to play a different tier, because I can tell you B/W UU is not what I want, and DDPt OU is very close, but doesn't have some of the new toys and pokes I would like to use. I will continue to push for a Drizzle and Exca ban, I honestly don't care if you like them here, cause I don't like them here. Once again, I am not going to over the whole argument of why I want them to go, as it has been stated over and over by others.

I know there's been quite a few posts since this, but I just wanted to respond to this, as it seems to define what is wrong with a lot of people's arguments. The suspect tests are not done to mold the metagame into one that people desire to play in; it is to remove "broken" elements from said metagame in order to allow more skillful, competitive play, and the fact that it is more desirable is a by-product of that. An element should only be banned from standard play if it gives an unreasonably-high benefit to an unskilled player using it versus a relatively skilled player not using it, and forces players to resort to either using it themselves or using a highly-specialized or likewise-broken counter in order to overcome it (this is my opinion based on what I believe is important for competition, do not take this as an absolute definition, for there isn't one). With the exception of Lax Incense/Brightpowder (which are covered under Evasion clause), everything banned through the suspect tests so far meets these conditions. I don't believe any of the weathers do, and until you and other anti-weather supporters give evidence to the contrary, it should not be banned.

If you do not have a skill-based, competitive reason as to why any of the weathers should be removed (believe it or not, "it limits variety" is not one of them, as whatever is being limited is sub-optimal, and a competitive environment has no need to cater to sub-optimal elements), then you have no right to say that they should. If you don't enjoy a metagame that involves weather wars with the above in mind, then you should find a metagame that does while still being competitive. If you can't find such a metagame, then it a problem with your personal preferences, which doesn't concern Smogon.

 

[X5Dragon]

Um Razza, what I meant that Hyper Offensive teams such as mine are unfairly being held back because of the broken things roaming the metagame right now, otherwise, and after the ban our true strengths will shine.

I guess only time can tell. Also about complex bans, proposing Sand Stream + Sand Rush is exactly the same as what was proposed before regarding Drizzle + Swift Swim. I see no reason why it's not included in this round.

I would have added Clorphyl + Drought but Sun doesn't take your sashes away and status and status blockers make sleep powder less effective.

 

[pharaohcalvin]

I know there's been quite a few posts since this, but I just wanted to respond to this, as it seems to define what is wrong with a lot of people's arguments. The suspect tests are not done to mold the metagame into one that people desire to play in; it is to remove "broken" elements from said metagame in order to allow more skillful, competitive play, and the fact that it is more desirable is a by-product of that. An element should only be banned from standard play if it gives an unreasonably-high benefit to an unskilled player using it versus a relatively skilled player not using it, and forces players to resort to either using it themselves or using a highly-specialized or likewise-broken counter in order to overcome it (this is my opinion based on what I believe is important for competition, do not take this as an absolute definition, for there isn't one). With the exception of Lax Incense/Brightpowder (which are covered under Evasion clause), everything banned through the suspect tests so far meets these conditions. I don't believe any of the weathers do, and until you and other anti-weather supporters give evidence to the contrary, it should not be banned.

If you do not have a skill-based, competitive reason as to why any of the weathers should be removed (believe it or not, "it limits variety" is not one of them, as whatever is being limited is sub-optimal, and a competitive environment has no need to cater to sub-optimal elements), then you have no right to say that they should. If you don't enjoy a metagame that involves weather wars with the above in mind, then you should find a metagame that does while still being competitive. If you can't find such a metagame, then it a problem with your personal preferences, which doesn't concern Smogon.

Drizzle is the only weather I want to see banned. I was just defending other peoples right to voice there opinions, instead of having people yell at them to go elsewhere because they do not agree on their opinions. Now if you want me to state my reason, I will but it has been stated before. Drizzle gives huge offensive boons to many pokemon, it makes pokemon that are near useless for anything else besides countering them to be used (ex. Gastrodon) Needless to say, we had to nerf it with a complex ban, which I disagree with the use of period. Now do you want me to spit out the whole Excadrill convo again, or how about the Thunderus one? I had tried to avoid shoving the same info back at you. But I will if you want me too.

 

[Challenger]

If you think Hail will be broken in OU then you are either trolling or very stupid.

That being said, i disagree with all weathers being grouped together. They are all very different. This 'if one goes then the others will rule' arguement seems stupid and biased. How can you even determine if something is broken if its not been tested in that environment yet. Tbh, even Rain seems balanced atm. There is no need to make a rash move and ban all weathers.

This is extremely simple. If rain is band, sand takes over entirely. And vice versa. The meta game is, right now, all about weather war. You can't just ban one and leave the others. Checks and balances. It doesn't matter if their playstyles are different.

 

[rh2012]

Seriously this is ridiculous. We can post and refute views without bashing and labeling people. I dont like perma-weather. NO I dont want Gen4 OU back. NO its not that i "can't deal with it". NO it isnt because it makes things easier for me. IMO it would create a more diverse and stable metagame. Now i'm gonna go hide in my shell before I get bashed by no-life flamers.

*rh2012 used WITHDRAW!

 

[Rosey Oak]

Anti Auto-Weather Argument:

I have repeatedly said my argument's for banning Drizzle (and Drought) in the past, but I'll state my main points again since some people have lost sight of the reason's behind why we weather opposer's want Drizzle banned in the first place.


Nominating Drizzle/Drought for the following reasons.

(Weather versus weather:)

'It is my belief that the enjoyable ‘old style of battling’ has been sadly lost and replaced with the tiresome never-ending weather war. Opponents desperately compete with each other for weather control because without it they will almost surely lose. Let’s face it, the Metagame is now solely based on who can keep their weather starter alive the longest so they can sweep the other players team. (Or what team can I make to counter the most weather abusers.) Honestly, I do not feel that this version of battling is even enjoyable or in my opinion more skilful than the previous way we battled. Before we had to outsmart the other player through our use of skill and tactics, now through the loss of one or two Pokemon (whether it be a weather starter or the main counter for weather sweeper ‘X’) we can easily lose the game. At this point you look back and think, is there any way I could have possibly won from point ‘Y’ if I hadn’t done this, or hadn’t done that, but more so we find ourselves thinking that it would have be literally impossible to win from this point. This is not because the opponent superiorly outsmarted us; it is simply due to the fact that based on our team we couldn’t have possibly won. The threat of weather has just become too strong in my opinion. We shouldn’t be doomed to lose a battle (so early in the game) just because of the ‘death’ of one or two members of our team. Yes, they are a few scenarios in non-weather teams where this occurs, but with weather it occurs too often. Which I feel proves that something is wrong with the Metagame.'


As for the scenario where a weather team versus a non-weather team, the weather team is given an immediate advantage as soon as the player introduces their auto-weather starter. The player does not even have to use a move and there is no current effective way to get rid of the weather (and all the advantages and disadvantages it enforces) other than by inducing your own weather or by using cloud 9 (which let's face it - cloud 9 Pokemon suck anyway). Therefore this servilely limits your team choice to 4 Pokemon that can effectively change the weather.

Now in reference to the point about the advantages and disadvantages weather enforces, I know someone will quote me on this and tell me stealth rocks does the exact same thing >.> , so here is a previous counter argument for that debate.


'Drizzle allows Pokemon ‘X’ to live ‘Y’ and Pokemon ‘Y’ to kill ‘Z’.

(Looking at OU)

Stealth rocks also shares the same characteristics as this, however the damage of stealth rocks is greatly limited in comparison. Stealth Rocks only majorly effects 4 types – Fire, Ice, Bug and Flying (three of which’s pure typing isn’t used in the OU Metagame due to this heavy SR damage.) For the remaining types the damage of stealth rocks is limited to a small amount which only occurs on switching. Weather on the other hand, changes so many variables and to a greater extent whilst favouring specific Pokemon and putting others at a disadvantage. In the case of Drizzle, it gives a 50% power boosts to an already dominant type - water. A previously weak specs Politoed's Hydo Pump now has more power than a Specs Latios Drago Meteor. In addition to that fire moves are also reduced by 50% which essentially means steel/grass type Pokemon are loosing out on a weakness. Furthermore Hurricane and Thunder now have 100% accuracy.

Pokemon which do not even gain any advantage by rain what so ever, will always be put at a disadvantage when battling those that do. Such favourability for such a large number of Pokemon should not be brought on just by sending a Pokemon out without even using a move.


Team Building:

As I have already briefly said, it is my belief that weather wars severely restricts the team building process to the extend that we are repeatedly seeing the same teams over and over again. We must use 'strategy X' in reference to a weather inducing starter or use 'strategy Y' a team structured around weather opposer's such as Heatran/Gastrodon/Gliscor. This alone disrupts one of Smogons main policy's -the promotion of variety.


'To conclude, the importance of weather has far surpassed what used to be acceptable, and is thus creating an unbalanced game where non-weather things aren't important and get overwhelmed unless they counter specific weather threats.'

 

[KurashiDragon]

@ KurashiDragon

Wait. So you think banning weather will have a similar effect to the banning of Salamence and Latias?

Losing Salamence and Latias meant that heavy offensive teams were less dominant and still useable. Whereas stall teams were more dominant but not even close to broken.

Losing permaweather means there will be playstyles that disappear altogether. As I've posted in a previous post, you lose 8 playstyles. 10 if you count hail.

Now that's actually not true. It requires a little more work but you can actually use those playstyles if you pack weather moves. I will say that it makes using these playstyles much more difficult but your not losing any playstyles if you get rid of permaweather.

 

[rh2012]

<3 Rosey Oaks post.

 

[SlimMan]

Um Razza, what I meant that Hyper Offensive teams such as mine are unfairly being held back because of the broken things roaming the metagame right now, otherwise, and after the ban our true strengths will shine.

"Um, Razza, what I meant is my team is weak to these OBVIOUSLY broken Pokemon, so we should ban them so that my team will do better and I can rise in the rankings."

I'm not attacking your side of the argument. I hate Drought and Drizzle. But that's literally what you just said. At least try to disguise those sorts of reasons.

I guess only time can tell. Also about complex bans, proposing Sand Stream + Sand Rush is exactly the same as what was proposed before regarding Drizzle + Swift Swim. I see no reason why it's not included in this round.

Sand Stream + Sand Rush is not exactly the same as Drizzle + SwSw. People have been over this. The SwSwers ALSO got a 50% boost to their STAB moves, whereas Excadrill gets no STAB boost.
It's one thing to say Excadrill is broken, but don't compare Sand Srush to Swift Swim.

Furthermore, Excadrill is the only Sand Rush abuser who doesn't suck. With Swift Swim, we would've had to ban like 5 Pokemon most likely before we got to some un-broken ones, whereas Excadrill is just one Pokemon. I'm not justifying Aldaron's Proposal, I'm just saying that there is literally no reason to not just ban Excadrill.

I would have added Clorphyl + Drought but Sun doesn't take your sashes away and status and status blockers make sleep powder less effective.

"I would have added Chlorophyll + Drought, but Sun doesn't beat my team half as easily."

Again, I don't disagree with your point of view at all. I just disagree with the awful way that you presented it.

 

[Meru]

Can we stop arguing that we're "losing playstyles" if we remove weather? Calling it "Rain Offense" is the same thing as calling a team "Blaziken Offense". Offense itself will still thrive. In fact, it'll be open to a lot more diversity since it wouldn't be pulled in five different directions due to weather effects

 

[WinstonShnozwick]

I personally believe that the grouping of weather into one vote for a ban is not the best way to go, because be there a majority of weather pro banners, if more want to only ban drizzle, then the vote would be passed. If they can be separated into 4, they can all be voted on still, and it would work out. I'm like 75% sure that with the group ban, no weather will be banned this round. And people that say other weathers will dominate after rain ban are only half correct. Drought is very powerful yes, but I've always found it quite easy to play against in comparison to drizzle and sand. Hail is lulz, if you think that will rise up and dominate then I want what you're smoking.

 

[Joel]

@ Rosey Oak: As far as your Cloud Nine Pokes comment goes. Yeah, Golduck sucks...However, both Altaria and Lickilicky are "decent" for OU.

They are only comparabley decent in the way that Politoed and Ninetails are "decent". It's the ability itself that is good. All four mentioned Pokes are rather lackluster otherwise.

In other words, As far as weather control goes, Altaria and Licky are on the same competitive level viability in OU as DrizzleToed and DroughtTails.

So, you voting to directly neuter the only viability of two other Pokes because you can't get with the new metagame, right?

5th gen is weather. Really, get with the program.

 

[New World Order]

Now that's actually not true. It requires a little more work but you can actually use those playstyles if you pack weather moves. I will say that it makes using these playstyles much more difficult but your not losing any playstyles if you get rid of permaweather.

Rain stall and Sand stall are definately going to thrive with rain dance and sandstorm. Excadrill is totally going to rape when sandstorm's 5 turns go like this: turn 1 sandstorm, turn 2: send someone to bait electric move, turn 3: send in excadrill, turn 4: set up SD, turn 5: attack, turn 6: oh... the sandstorm ended...

I'm also fairly sure that without permaweather, rain dance teams would shred the metagame. Meaning that Aldaron's proposal becomes useless anyways, because the whole point of it was so Swift Swimmers don't destroy everything.

Can we stop arguing that we're "losing playstyles" if we remove weather? Calling it "Rain Offense" is the same thing as calling a team "Blaziken Offense". Offense itself will still thrive. In fact, it'll be open to a lot more diversity since it wouldn't be pulled in five different directions due to weather effects

Isn't being pulled in 5 different directions the definition of variety? 5 different things is surely more diverse than 1 thing. As well, what playstyles are we going to save with a banning of weather? Super Gyaravire Assault? Even hyper offense is useable. If you want to play HO, just use an Air Balloon Terrakion like everyone else. Or wait until Techniloom comes out.

I also have no clue what the fuck you mean by calling something Rain Offense being similar to calling something Blaziken Offense. "Blaziken Offense" is one really fucking broken pokemon that can kill everything except like Slowbro or something. Rain Offense uses: Rotom-W, Scizor, Dragonite, Jirachi, Latios, Thundurus, Starmie, Gyarados, Latias, Toxicroak, Swampert, Tornadus, Zapdos, Cloyster, Jolteon, Azumarrill, Sharpedo, Raikou. If Drizzle were gone, a good chunk of pokemon will never see the light of day (Toxicroak being the best example), another chunk will lose some of their best sets (Jirachi being the best example).

 

[Rosey Oak]

So, you voting to directly neuter the only viability of two other Pokes because you can't get with the new metagame, right?

5th gen is weather. Really, get with the program.

I'm kind of speechless.

*breathes*

...

There is no written rule that 5th gen MUST centre around weather. The game is what we make it. Ever since the competitive nature of the Pokemon existed we have strived to create the most desirable Metagame. This means that whatever is deemed to be broken no matter what it is, is banished to Uber land. We do not excuse something by saying IT IS the game, because we already have taken what game freak has given us and used it to create a Metagame which we have chosen for ourselves.

 

[ZcX]

I agree with NewWorld Order, if weather is banned many pokemons in the tier will lose their potential.
And why just not bane the pokemons that are broken under weather?

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

I'm kind of speechless.

*breathes*

...

There is no written rule that 5th gen MUST centre around weather. The game is what we make it. Ever since the competitive nature of the Pokemon existed we have strived to create the most desirable Metagame. This means that whatever is deemed to be broken no matter what it is, is banished to Uber land. We do not excuse something by saying IT IS the game, because we already have taken what game freak has given us and used it to created a Metagame which we have chosen for ourselves.

Nor is there a rule saying it must not be weather. Weather is currently the Ou metagame, a metagame that most players are fine with. Try adapting to it first.

 

[Demoness]

I agree with NewWorld Order, if weather is banned many pokemons in the tier will lose their potential.
And why just not bane the pokemons that are broken under weather?

Lets see. Drizzle would need awhole lot of bans before it is comsidered balanced. Sand has literally one Pokemon that is a problem. Sun has a couple that can be considered, but I don't see any reason to ban anything in it. Hail is Hail. Also, it doesn't matter how many Pokemon we lose in the process of a ban or how many playstyles are lost. All that matters is whether the ban will bring upon a more balanced metagame. Rosey Oak has said everything I wanted to say and more on that matter.

Nor is there a rule saying it must not be weather. Weather is currently the Ou metagame, a metagame that most players are fine with. Try adapting to it first.

Don't you think that people that want to ban a form of weather have tried to fucking adapt to it, but are sick at how it pretty muchy forces certain Pokemon to be on your team? It's aalso a good idea to stop twisting our arguements to make it look like we're saying things we've never said.

 

[KurashiDragon]

Rain stall and Sand stall are definately going to thrive with rain dance and sandstorm. Excadrill is totally going to rape when sandstorm's 5 turns go like this: turn 1 sandstorm, turn 2: send someone to bait electric move, turn 3: send in excadrill, turn 4: set up SD, turn 5: attack, turn 6: oh... the sandstorm ended...

I'm also fairly sure that without permaweather, rain dance teams would shred the metagame. Meaning that Aldaron's proposal becomes useless anyways, because the whole point of it was so Swift Swimmers don't destroy everything.



Isn't being pulled in 5 different directions the definition of variety? 5 different things is surely more diverse than 1 thing. As well, what playstyles are we going to save with a banning of weather? Super Gyaravire Assault? Even hyper offense is useable. If you want to play HO, just use an Air Balloon Terrakion like everyone else. Or wait until Techniloom comes out.

I also have no clue what the fuck you mean by calling something Rain Offense being similar to calling something Blaziken Offense. "Blaziken Offense" is one really fucking broken pokemon that can kill everything except like Slowbro or something. Rain Offense uses: Rotom-W, Scizor, Dragonite, Jirachi, Latios, Thundurus, Starmie, Gyarados, Latias, Toxicroak, Swampert, Tornadus, Zapdos, Cloyster, Jolteon, Azumarrill, Sharpedo, Raikou. If Drizzle were gone, a good chunk of pokemon will never see the light of day (Toxicroak being the best example), another chunk will lose some of their best sets (Jirachi being the best example).

Your forgetting about the rocks which has the weather moves last 8 turns not 5.

Also Rain Dance teams weren't broken last gen so it stands to reason that it wouldn't be broken this gen especially with new threats like Ferrothron who would be the best check to Rain Dance teams.

No account to stall teams because I do actually agree with you. Weather stall teams would suck bad without permaweather.

Also XXD to the pokemon you said wouldn't see the light of day. Lez see how many of those pokemon are actually used in Rain that are ou because the rest BARELY see the light of day in an ou rain team as is.

Rotom-W, Scizor, Dragonite, Jirachi, Latios, Thundurus, Starmie, Gyarados, Latias, Toxicroak, Swampert, and Tornadus

Now lez see how many of those pokemon would be directly affected to the point of losing tier if Rain were gone

Toxicroak, Swampert, and tornadus. In other words 3 pokemon really care about rain in the first place to the point where if it were gone they'd lose tier.... oh and Politoed who's the rain starter.... so 4 pokemon.......

Also XXD to pokemon losing their best sets if rain were gone. Jirachi doesn't even have a rain set. It's best set is is specially defensive set which is more for latios then rain. SubCM would lose thunder.... oh but wait it still has thunderbolt. So tell me, besides gaining it's fire weakness again and losing Thunder how is any of Jirachi's sets (and by extension Jirachi) affected in anyway by losing Rain?

 

[Rosey Oak]

Nor is there a rule saying it must not be weather.

Well it's a good job no one has ever said "5th Gen must not be weather" then.

Weather is currently the Ou metagame, a metagame that most players are fine with. Try adapting to it first.

If the majority of players are fine with it, so be it, but I and others like myself who are 'unhappy' with the current Metagame will continue to voice our opinions on the matter. Whether or not you choose to listen to us, is up to you.