np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)

[a fairy]

So then, please explain, Rosey Oak and friends, to someone who doesnt understand, why are you complaining, when all that comes out of it is:

• You get weather into the suspect test, and it doesnt get banned
• You get a lot of people going 9.9 at you
• pc++

Just go get reqs and get it banned yourself?

I'm sorry if you see this as offensive. I'm just wondering.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Well it's a good job no one has ever said "5th Gen must not be weather" then.

"Weather sux!!! BAN IT!!"
"Ban teh weathur!!"
"We want CLeer SKyees!!"
"Weathur is stoopid, we should get rid of it!"

Of course, this isn't how people actually say it, but yea, some people are, in a way, saying "5th Gen must NOT be weather".

 

[alphatron]

At the end of the day, the metagame we shape is a metagame that we enjoy, not necessarily a completely balanced or ideal one.

Nobody said that hyper offense had to be a viable playstyle either.

 

[a fairy]

alphatron, the metagame will never be something everyone likes, we just have to admit it

 

[KurashiDragon]

"Weather sux!!! BAN IT!!"
"Ban teh weathur!!"
"We want CLeer SKyees!!"
"Weathur is stoopid, we should get rid of it!"

Of course, this isn't how people actually say it, but yea, some people are, in a way, saying "5th Gen must NOT be weather".

XXD the same thing can be said for people who wanted Garchomp banned and latios and Moody and well pretty much any suspect. People dont like something for some reason or another so they want it banned. IMO a ban is a preference. When something gets banned it's because the supermajority or majority of voters don't like that pokemon/ability so they want it gone.

 

[Demoness]

alphatron, the metagame will never be something everyone likes, we just have to admit it

Of course. Making a metagame that everyone likes is a literal impossibility. More spefically, we should aim for a metagame that the majority of people can enjoy.

 

[a fairy]

XXD the same thing can be said for people who wanted Garchomp banned and latios and Moody and well pretty much any suspect. People dont like something for some reason or another so they want it banned. IMO a ban is a preference. When something gets banned it's because the supermajority or majority of voters don't like that pokemon/ability so they want it gone.

then please explain why ~70 percent of players want excadrill banned but it never is

 

[Rosey Oak]

@Lady Salamance

Well I'm not sure about everyone else, but as for myself, I simply enjoy playing Pokemon for fun and personally, I do not have the time to play it competitively.

However in saying that, I do not have fun playing the Metagame in the currant state that it is in, which is why I feel the need to voice my opinion on the matter in this forum - it is a discussion form after all.

 

[NoUserName]

Thought about him, but he'd get decimated in OU, even with hail support.

Why? It can stall 32 turns(or being phazed before) and its support movepool is nice.

In the case of Drizzle, it gives a 50% power boosts to an already dominant type - water. A previously weak specs Politoed's Hydo Pump now has more power than a Specs Latios Drago Meteor. In addition to that fire moves are also reduced by 50% which essentially means steel/grass type Pokemon are loosing out on a weakness. Furthermore Hurricane and Thunder now have 100% accuracy.

The opponent has the same advantages too, you cannot use Fire moves or your Drizzle team, and non water resistants suffer from the opposite water-type moves. Thunder is rare outside Drizzle but may be used to 60% paralysis rate on Jirachi, and not to talk about your opponent Swift Swimmers due to being Drizzle too common.


Gastrodon is not useless outside against Drizzle, it counters a lot of waters without HP Grass(for those which fear more Gyarados) and can recover off the damage and can try to burn with these annoying Scald.

 

[alphatron]

Of course. Making a metagame that everyone likes is a literal impossibility. More spefically, we should aim for a metagame that the majority of people can enjoy.

In a sense, that's how the current suspect process works. The majority of those who obtain voting requirements enjoy the weather based metagame, so weather is here to stay. Then again, there are those like shrang, who don't bother playing in a metagame they don't like very much anyway.

 

[Nanoswine]

Well I'm not sure about everyone else, but as for myself, I simply enjoy playing Pokemon for fun and personally, I do not have the time to play it competitively.

However in saying that, I do not have fun playing in the Metagame in the currant state it is in, which is why I still like to voice my opinion on the matter in this forum - it is a discussion form after all.

Smogon's goal is to make a competitive metagame, not a fun one. If you aren't having fun go play something else or try out the lower tiers, which have far less weather.

 

[Rosey Oak]

Smogon's goal is to make a competitive metagame, not a fun one. If you aren't having fun go play something else or try out the lower tiers, which have far less weather.

Just because I don't ladder competitively at the moment, doesn't mean I don't strive for the same type of Metagame that you desire. Yes I would like to have fun, but I would also like a Metagame in which I think is balanced and 'fair' - and at the moment, I personally don't feel that it is.

 

[Demoness]

In a sense, that's how the current suspect process works. The majority of those who obtain voting requirements enjoy the weather based metagame, so weather is here to stay. Then again, there are those like shrang, who don't bother playing in a metagame they don't like very much anyway.

Yeah, thats the exact problem. People who hate the metagame (me included) are not that motivated to play in the metagame because whats the point of playing a metagme if you aboslutley hate it?

Smogon's goal is to make a competitive metagame, not a fun one. If you aren't having fun go play something else or try out the lower tiers, which have far less weather.

Generally, a fun metagame comes from a competative metagame, and a competative metagame comes from a fun metagame.

 

[Stratos]

Don't you think that people that want to ban weather have tried to fucking adapt to it, but are sick at how it pretty much forces certain Pokemon to be on your team?

Don't you think that people that want to ban DRAGONS have tried to fucking adapt to it, but are sick at how it pretty much forces STEEL Pokemon to be on your team?

Don't you think that people that want to ban THUNDURUS have tried to fucking adapt to it, but are sick at how it pretty much forces FAST Pokemon to be on your team?

Don't you think that people that want to ban REUNICLUS have tried to fucking adapt to it, but are sick at how it pretty much forces OFFENSIVE Pokemon to be on your team?

Don't you think that people that want to ban DEOXYS have tried to fucking adapt to it, but are sick at how it pretty much forces ROCK RESISTANT Pokemon to be on your team?

And before you say "you just one of them weather users" I realize that all metas are not ideal. In fact, I fucking hate OU. So I grew a pair and play RU, which i like a lot more. There's a reason we have what, eight metas.

 

[alphatron]

Don't you think that people that want to ban BLAZIKEN have tried to fucking adapt to it, but are sick at how it pretty much forces SLOWBRO/DRAGONITE to be on your team?

 

[Stratos]

Don't you think that people that want to ban BLAZIKEN have tried to fucking adapt to it, but are sick at how it pretty much forces SLOWBRO/DRAGONITE to be on your team?

Bad example, because there is a wide range of pokemon that can beat weather, and also i never had blaziken problems while I never ran one of those two.

 

[Demoness]

So, you attack one point I made on how someone seemed to assume that anyone who wants to ban weather obviously didn't try to adapt, and rather decided that they want it banned?

And before you say "you just one of them weather users" I realize that all metas are not ideal. In fact, I fucking hate OU. So I grew a pair and play RU, which i like a lot more. There's a reason we have what, eight metas.

Ok, wow. You try to assume that I will just throw a petty insult yourway just because you don't agree with what I said? And here's a simple enough answer for you: What if I don't want to play fucking RU?

 

[Stratos]

well, i've seen this thread, so it was a pretty fair assumption, note i'm not commenting on your character specifically. Anyway, my point was that any threat forces you to run counters, and Weather has a good enough number that it doesn't deserve a ban.

 

[alphatron]

Bad example, because there is a wide range of pokemon that can beat weather, and also i never had blaziken problems while I never ran one of those two.

I didn't have too many blaziken issues either, but the example wasn't made to poke fun at you. Had the majority of people here had this attitude, we'd still have blaziken in OU and those who didn't like that would just have to deal with it. It's relatively the same for those who don't enjoy some other aspects of the metagame right now. The HO offense players don't want to use the "weak" pokemon who can beat excadrill.

 

[KurashiDragon]

then please explain why ~70 percent of players want excadrill banned but it never is

XD I don't know if 70% of the community want Excadrill banned. We've had no polls for excadrill and the voters have voted well below the minority of Excadrill for a long while. I have no personaly opinion of Excadrill myself. I've been swept by a few and I've stopped a few.

 

[NoUserName]

Could you give examples why do you think Hyper Offensive is near to impossible with Excadrill besides it outspeeds the whole metagame?

 

[Matthew]

So, you attack one point I made on how someone seemed to assume that anyone who wants to ban weather obviously didn't try to adapt, and rather decided that they want it banned?



Ok, wow. You try to assume that I will just throw a petty insult yourway just because you don't agree with what I said? And here's a simple enough thought for you: What if I don't want to play fucking RU?

To be fair there's UU and then there's all of the previous generations in which you can play. I don't like UU so I don't play it. I don't like RU so I don't play it. We have many tiers over many (5) generations. While I'm not saying that you can't express your opinion, I feel that people simply nominating something because, "they don't like it," is a poor reason. I hate playing against Dragonite, but does that mean I think it's broken? no. My best team is weak against Dual Screen Deo-S + Dragonite, but do I think the combo is broken? No. I simply need to adjust my team do deal with that threat. I'm not going to nominate a complex ban of Deo-S and Dragonite.

Now I'm not going to throw a hissy fit if weather is banned, because I can adapt, but I find it unsettling at best that people are banning for the reason that "we don't like it."

 

[blarajan]

What I don't seem to understand about the majority of anti-weather arguments is they all seem to be arguments of preference. Sure, there seem to be the occasional other argument (it limits diversity!!), which have been touched upon and refuted multiple times in this subforum. The main one that has been popping up, though, is, at its core, "I don't like it." What people don't seem to understand is the debates of preference go BOTH ways. There will never be a time where the current metagame pleases everybody who plays it. I personally love weather. Would I find a metagame without it fun? Probably not.

It just irritates me when people make blanket statements about what's desirable and how we should attain that, when what they're saying is desirable is their own damn opinion. There is no universal "what's desirable," which is why the suspect testing process only removes "what's broken," providing the most objective path to desirability.

 

[Rosey Oak]

Could someone please quote these arguments that state "we want weather banned because we don't like it", because I have a hard time finding them myself.

 

[MetaGross66]

There is no universal "what's desirable," which is why the suspect testing process only removes "what's broken," providing the most objective path to desirability.

Please, can you define "broken" for us before some of us waste our vote on something that isn't "broken"? -.-

Is it something centralizing like Drizzle or something we just don't want to deal with anymore like Dragonite?

Edit: What ever happened to those characteristics a suspect had to belong to to be banned like the offensive, defensive, and support characteristic? I think something like that should be used for clear guidelines.