Latias (Physically Defensive Calm Mind) [GP 2/2]

[twash]

http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/latias

QC: [3/3]
GP: [2/2]

It has been a long time since I last did a write-up of any sort, so please bear with me! Been using this set a lot recently, it's been very successful. I used it in the Tour last week and other people like Nachos can allude to its ability. It should be separate from any other set as it plays differently.

[SET]
name: Physically Defensive Calm Mind
move 1: Dragon Pulse
move 2: Recover
move 3: Calm Mind
move 4: Reflect
item: Leftovers
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 228 Def / 28 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set gives a more defensive twist to Latias, in comparison to the standard Calm Mind set. By increasing her physical bulk and utilizing Reflect, Latias is able to stand up to several physical powerhouses. Courtesy of her great typing and superb Special Defense, this Latias is still able to sponge many powerful and common special attacks.</p>

<p>Reflect really raises the boundary of Latias's aptitude, especially when combined with the defensive EV spread. Allowing Latias to take less damage from the hard-hitting Choice Band Tyranitar and Scizor is always advantageous; Latias can easily outspeed both, and use Reflect to sponge their assaults. Should either use Pursuit, Latias can easily begin to set up six Calm Minds, fearing nothing but a critical hit. It is because of critical hits that you should be careful to only boost Latias to a necessary level, as opposed to trying to go for the maximum amount of Calm Minds possible. Latias can also take Scizor's U-turn with a surprising amount of ease, considering its power and the fact that it hits Latias for super effective damage. Choice Scarf Tyranitar may well Crunch Latias before you can Reflect, but Latias will typically be able to Reflect on the turn she takes the Crunch, Recover a few times, and then switch out safely.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>The Speed EVs allow Latias to outspeed all non-Choice Scarf Politoed, also beating Adamant Dragonite by extension. However, there are a few other Speed benchmarks that you may wish to aim for. 252 HP / 184 Def / 72 Spe with a Timid nature can be used if you want to outspeed neutral Base 100 Speed Pokemon, such as Salamence, while also outspeeding Rotom-W and Adamant Haxorus. You can bump this up further to 152 Speed EVs, allowing Latias to beat Jolly Haxorus. Alternatively, it is feasible to just run a simple 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe set with a Timid nature. By maximizing Latias's Speed, she can get the jump on Terrakion, Virizion, and Infernape, albeit in return for a significant drop in defensive ability.</p>

 

[PK Gaming]

QC APPROVED (1/3)

 

[uragg]

maybe an alternate spread of 252 hp / 252 spe timid mentioned somewhere? with reflect latias easily survives crunch/pursuit and can react accordingly, although when it's not at full health it becomes trickier with the faster spread. I used this set with max spe before because I liked to be able to beat opposing hp fire lati@s and/or tie because that's always convenient, while also outspeeding the 108s and the 98-101 bloc as well since that can really come in handy sometimes. it does lose a lot of bulk though, so it's not optimal but idk I've used it and I think it has certain merits.

 

[RaikouLover]

Other than the slow as balls EV spread how is this any better than the first set already listed on the analysis? That set can set up reflect as well and easily avoid that OHKO with Pursuit, or it can Sub Roost stall with toxic spikes. HP Fire and Roar are already listed. So how does this new EV spread warrant it being different over just adding Reflect into the already used set? They are the same thing!!!! All I see here is a Latias that can't even revenge kill other dragons. This is nothing an optional EV spread in the current write up would not fix. I'm sure it works fine, but I can't see your average person choosing this Latias over the standard faster one -_- that does the EXACT same thing.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

Yea I don't really see how this plays too differently from the CM set currently on site. Anyway, what's the point of going "all out wall" when you have so much more utility with max speed? With max HP and no defense EVs, it should be able to take physical hits just fine with reflect up.

I would favor 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe Timid as the main spread.

 

[twash]

maybe an alternate spread of 252 hp / 252 spe timid mentioned somewhere? with reflect latias easily survives crunch/pursuit and can react accordingly, although when it's not at full health it becomes trickier with the faster spread. I used this set with max spe before because I liked to be able to beat opposing hp fire lati@s and/or tie because that's always convenient, while also outspeeding the 108s and the 98-101 bloc as well since that can really come in handy sometimes. it does lose a lot of bulk though, so it's not optimal but idk I've used it and I think it has certain merits.

It kind of messes up the set from my experience but it's a noteworthy point that people have the option of more Speed, so if I remove the mentions of Reflect from the first set, I will put mentions of that EV spread on this set which will go into more depth.

Other than the slow as balls EV spread how is this any better than the first set already listed on the analysis? That set can set up reflect as well and easily avoid that OHKO with Pursuit, or it can Sub Roost stall with toxic spikes. HP Fire and Roar are already listed. So how does this new EV spread warrant it being different over just adding Reflect into the already used set? They are the same thing!!!! All I see here is a Latias that can't even revenge kill other dragons. This is nothing an optional EV spread in the current write up would not fix. I'm sure it works fine, but I can't see your average person choosing this Latias over the standard faster one -_- that does the EXACT same thing.

As I said in the OP, it should get a different set because it is played completely different to the on-site set. If you use the on-site set instead of this one, the drop in defensive ability is hugely significant to how it is used. The EV spread allows Reflect to be used properly, as a team support and as a self-supporting move (instead of just a bodged move and then poorly saying "look I can take physical hits!"). It allows Latias to avoid annoying threats with more simplicity to the point where you don't have to play her in fear of being threatened too easily. It allows Latias to save its HP early game which lets it actually be of more use later on in matches (i.e. you can take Pursuits/Crunches better and actually stop things after this). You play this Latias completely differently because she's taking hits at a different level. You do not use this set as a primary Calm Mind user, that is just not how it is played. I found this set created far more options in terms of game plans and whatnot. It still beats almost all of the stuff Latias does normally (like Rotom-W), so it can still do that "if you want". I know it loses Speed but apart from Haxorus and Jolly Dragonite, it hasn't been that noticeable at all (and I haven't really had a problem with outspeeding Dragonite, really).

It plays differently and that has a massive knock-on, you should probably go and use it and see for yourself instead of just saying "it looks like that Latias though!". Latias is very much on the cusp of being able to take hard physical hits and not being able to take them, but this set really allows her to do that whilst keeping most of her other traits. In turn, this changes how the set plays and how you need to team build with the set. It's just not viable to explain (in or two paragraphs) all the advantages and disadvantages of two sets which are played totally different. At least not to a standard that we are used to.

Yea I don't really see how this plays too differently from the CM set currently on site. Anyway, what's the point of going "all out wall" when you have so much more utility with max speed? With max HP and no defense EVs, it should be able to take physical hits just fine with reflect up.

I would favor 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe Timid as the main spread.

Read what I wrote to RL, pretty much. The Speed thing isn't as noticeable as you would think, whereas the defensive ability jump is.

 

[RaikouLover]

I understand where your coming from, but you aren't changing any moves or the playstyle just the spread. Just add it to the first set. This is not different at all. The "Calm Mind" Latias is a defensive pokemon in the first place. As far as speed, Latias' speed is what allows her to come back later and threaten something and get in that recover. You are losing the ability to do that. 350 Speed is a big big deal man. You now have to take extra hits from quite a bit more pokemon when you switch in - Specs Rotom being one of them! Terakion, Virizion, Infernape.. you can't revenge kill them.. and now have to take 2 hits from Infernape before you can even set your Reflect up :(. Let's not forget Salamence, Hydrawhatever, and Haxorous. You flat out lose to them all, where you wouldn't with the extra speed. And then HP Fire Latios - I've used Latias to revenge kill it quite frequently..

I'm not at all opposed to looking at a slower Latias because I've done it before with a different set. But another set is not warranted at all because thise is just an EV fix not a playstyle fix. Fast Latias can Reflect probably more effectively than this anyway because it can actually get the reflect up against more things that it needs to. And the extra defense is cool but not as important as you think. Latias' typing and speed is what allows her to wall so many things, not so much the defense. Standard Latias with Reflect is MORE than enough for Breloom trust me.

If your using Standard Latias as an offensive pokemon your "doing that set wrong" because it has no SpA EVs and lacks the immediate juice to be called offensive.

 

[twash]

You clearly don't understand where I am coming from though. Please just stop telling me that the playstyle is not different, I don't know how many times I have pointed out that this set does not play like the standard Latias. If you actually tried this set and the "standard" set as opposed to theorycrafting, you would (hopefully) realise that it is played differently - I can vouch for this, as can others. "This is an EV fix not a playstyle fix" is complete bullshit, sorry.

Yes I admit, I sometimes miss the Speed. But in 80% of games I don't, and in most games I am also glad that I have the extra defensive ability. Tbh I prefer this set to the standard Latias set (which I have never really been able to use as well), and I know others agree. This allows you to play her differently.

I know Latias can come in and Reflect quickly with 350 Speed if you want to run that much Speed. But again, I just find that the Speed drop isn't worrying at all in most games, whereas the extra bulk is just sublime. It really makes Latias tough to take down instead of it being "a fast Pokemon with a decent Dragon Pulse to revenge kill some Dragons, with a Reflect that it doesn't really have the bulk to fully use with 0 Def EVs". I don't really understand your last point at all either, I never said that the standard Latias was "offensive" by any means.

I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree because this is completely based on opinion. I've used the set extensively, I found it different enough to warrant its own set. Other people agree with me. I don't really know what else to say.

 

[NatGeo]

Having written the analysis that is onsite right now, I think I might have some entitlement to an opinion. If not, whatever but please take this post for a grain of salt.

Having used Latias for quite some time I never really found the Speed to be necessary; Latias's main draw is its defensive capabilities, since if you're looking for a powerful specially oriented Dragon, Latios is just about always better. The Speed is helpful at times, but I never really found a need for it - I've been in a lot of situations where I could have really used some Defense and Reflect. If anything, just make sure to emphasize really heavily that this is played really defensively when compared to regular CM. That's really it, but also I think you might want to mention a benchmark to outspeed all non-scarfed rotom-w, since it gets really annoying with Will-O-Wisp (as does anything but Rotom-W is the most annoying that's commonly used imo).

 

[RaikouLover]

whether to use speed or not isnt the point. The point is does a different EV spread make this different enough from the first set to warrant a whole nother set. It is IDENTICAL to the set already listed. You come in, you wall shit, you recover, and you go for the CM sweep when the counters are dead. It is done with 350 Speed or 250 speed it makes no difference. You can easily add Reflect to one of the support / coverage moves slashed on the first set and put an EV spread in additional comments and call it a wrap. It plays no differently. Trust me. They all have Dragon Pulse, Calm Mind, and Recover. I've personally used Latias with Roar, Substitute, Reflect, Refresh, HP Fire, Thunderbolt, and Surf all in the 4th slot. They do somewhat different things when you arent sweeping depending on your move of choice, but the concept is never different. You fuck around and try not to get pursuited, then you sweep when your counters are gone.

 

[scarletnova]

Either way, the EV spread was already listed in the AC of the 1st set on site, the only thing you actually added was like Reflect, which could just be slashed in. Hence, I don't see why it warrants a new set.

 

[twash]

whether to use speed or not isnt the point. The point is does a different EV spread make this different enough from the first set to warrant a whole nother set. It is IDENTICAL to the set already listed. You come in, you wall shit, you recover, and you go for the CM sweep when the counters are dead. It is done with 350 Speed or 250 speed it makes no difference. You can easily add Reflect to one of the support / coverage moves slashed on the first set and put an EV spread in additional comments and call it a wrap. It plays no differently. Trust me. They all have Dragon Pulse, Calm Mind, and Recover. I've personally used Latias with Roar, Substitute, Reflect, Refresh, HP Fire, Thunderbolt, and Surf all in the 4th slot. They do somewhat different things when you arent sweeping depending on your move of choice, but the concept is never different. You fuck around and try not to get pursuited, then you sweep when your counters are gone.

Whether to use Speed or not is EXACTLY the point, because it allows you to run the Defense which makes all the difference to the style of the set. Reflect shouldn't even be mentioned in the first set, it should have its own set.

Not only does it play differently the the "standard" set, but there would be nowhere near enough space to conveniently go into proper detail on the use of Reflect (let alone with different EV spreads). You can ask me to "trust" you all you want, but I won't because I have used this set and other sets so many times that there is just no way I can believe anyone who says that the style is the same.

Either way, the EV spread was already listed in the AC of the 1st set on site, the only thing you actually added was like Reflect, which could just be slashed in. Hence, I don't see why it warrants a new set.

"Let's merge the Defensive Skarmory and Specially Defensive Skarmory, the only thing which changes is the EV spread". The thing that matters is how it is played, not how many things change. And, as I said above, there would not be at all enough suitable detail without a new set.

 

[Iconic]

good set good player i don't know what the issue here is. the skarmory comparison is pretty valid, because unlike every other latias set, this one lets you beat tyranitar one on one, and this does a lot better against stuff like breloom

QC Approved 2/3

 

[yee]

I love how this set beats non CB Tar one on one, while you give up the speed you get to use her amazing typing and defenses much more often, and threaten more opponents earlier on, which are solid selling points to me.

 

[scarletnova]

I love how this set beats non CB Tar one on one, while you give up the speed you get to use her amazing typing and defenses much more often, and threaten more opponents earlier on, which are solid selling points to me.

Reflect was written under AC in the standard CM set, and if used it can beat non CB Ttar as well, Adamant 252 Crunch only dealing upwards to 52%

 

[wilson46]

Reflect was written under AC in the standard CM set, and if used it can beat non CB Ttar as well, Adamant 252 Crunch only dealing upwards to 52%

Uhh... It deals 52% on average to THIS Latias under Reflect. And this set can't beat CB Tar either, it's supposed to scout for the Pursuit / Crunch and acting accordingly after that.

Anyway, this looks fine.

QC APPROVED (3/3)

edit: I thought you were talking about Tar's CB Crunch, my bad.

 

[shrang]

This set looks pretty cool, the only thing I have a problem with is the name. By naming it "Defensive Calm Mind", there may be some implications that the set on site at the moment is not defensive, when it most definitely is. Maybe change the name to "Physically Defensive", just to distinguish the two sets?

 

[scarletnova]

Uhh... It deals 52% on average to THIS Latias under Reflect. And this set can't beat CB Tar either, it's supposed to scout for the Pursuit / Crunch and acting accordingly after that.

Anyway, this looks fine.

QC APPROVED (3/3)

Assuming Reflect
Adamant 252 Ttar Crunch on 252/0 Timid Latias 44.5% - 52.7%
same Crunch on THIS Latias 31.9% - 38.5%
You can scout for Crunch and Pursuit with either Latias so I don't think it's that much of a niche. (And who non-CB 252 Ttar anyway? (which 2HKOs either through Reflect)

As a result, you are losing that important speed to outspeed Terrakkion (both parties 2HKO each other), Gengar (Which standard Latias sets up on if Gengar carries HP Fire), Darmanitan (2HKO in sun) among others

EDIT: Since it already passed QC, then screw it

 

[AccidentalGreed]

I agree. The standard CM set is already "Defensive" as it can get, so with this set, I would simply name it "Physically Defensive Calm Mind", if that doesn't push some kind of language boundary.

 

[skyhigh256]

This latias is incredibly solid against breloom! Under reflect, its focus punch only manages a meagre 15% on latias, thus allowing latias to set-up on breloom. A non defensive spread without reflect actually causes latias to get 2hko by focus punch. I can definitely see how this is played differently; the spread itself is incredible though you do miss out on outspeeding certain things.

Generally I think like what has already been mentioned, bumping the speed up to outspeed all timid non-scarf rotom-w seems good, somewhere around 270. The bulk isn't compromised too much either.

 

[RaikouLover]

Uhh... It deals 52% on average to THIS Latias under Reflect. And this set can't beat CB Tar either, it's supposed to scout for the Pursuit / Crunch and acting accordingly after that.

Anyway, this looks fine.

QC APPROVED (3/3)

edit: I thought you were talking about Tar's CB Crunch, my bad.

This whole argument is funny. Regular Latias with Reflect or Substitute beats Tyranitar ANYWAY with Toxic Spikes or if you Burn him with something else. Yeah I get QC approve this but this is just one person beating their chest to get a set passed. This set is not different at all. And multiple people have already attested to it in this very thread. An EV spread change is all that is needed. Reflect doesn't have three paragraphs different from the other options listed on the main set. We all know what the hell Reflect does, it is there to soften shit and keep you from being Pusuited. But Substitute accomplishes the same thing either without the necessity for a different EV spread. Hell, Substitute lets you stall out Tyranitar to hell and back. Reflect Latias is not a new concept and not played any differently then the defensive ass Latias sitting at the top of the analysis. Someone's got to call it for what it is and that's that. All that needs to be added is:

"Reflect can be used because of Latias' great defensive typing to soften hits from fighting types and grant additional protection from Tyranitar."

"252 HP / 228 Bold / 28 Spe, Bold allows for maximum physical durability at the expensive of speed. This spread allows Latias to take <insert damage calcs> from etc. and provide a more solid check to fighting pokemon."

How does that something along this lines not say what this whole set is trying to say? Seriously. Analysis are for ease of use and reference. This accomplishes that fine.

Ohh and for the record, Reflect on this set is being used more for team support, not Tyranitar protection. Like I said, you DON'T need this EV spread to use Reflect and outlast Tyranitar (which you shouldn't even attempt without burn or poison residual damage). That is where I fail to see the need to draft an entire new set onto this analysis. Hell, Reflect is already mentioned in the current analysis along with a Bold Bulky Spread!

A non defensive spread without reflect actually causes latias to get 2hko by focus punch. I can definitely see how this is played differently; the spread itself is incredible though you do miss out on outspeeding certain things.

That is flat out incorrect. Adamant Breloom does 40-47% with Focus Punch to Max HP Latias, not even a 2HKO with Sandstorm. And like I mentioned above, a bulkier spread is already listed in the set on site.

good set good player i don't know what the issue here is. the skarmory comparison is pretty valid, because unlike every other latias set, this one lets you beat tyranitar one on one, and this does a lot better against stuff like breloom

I completely missed the memo where Latias will beat Tyranitar one on one without help. This set will lose if it stays in trying to outlast Tyranitar without anything on the field thanks to Crunches defense drops. Please do not imply for one second that this set will beat a standard Tyranitar one on one. Your +0 Dragon Pulse does a pitiful 14-17%, which is what - an 8HKO with Leftovers? You want to Calm Mind up? You have to Calm Mind FIVE times to 2HKO with Dragon Pulse (50-59% at +5) before a defense drop or crit sets in. So yeah, cut the bullshit. This set can outstall Tyranitar, but so can standard Latias with Reflect or Substitute.

And Skarmory is a different animal, Special Defensive Skarmory and Physical Defensive Skarmory actually serve different purposes in what they check and set up Spikes on. Physical Defensive Latias and regular Latias still wall the same things and still lose to the same things. With this spread you still won't beat Tyranitar or Scizor and now you are slower than everything else. Yes, Scizor can't break you with U-turn, but you don't need a Bold spread to achieve this, and Substitute is already listed on the current set which blocks U-turn completely already.

So yeah, there is no reason for a new set everything written in this little write up is already covered in the main set all you have to do is add a few sentences. Your bulky spread is already listed there as well. I would actually encourage someone revising the comments there since they aren't describing the playstyle that you should use at all. Not a single mention of stalling with Substitute or Reflect, scouting and hazard whoring with Roar, or the fact that this is a check to things first and sweeper second. Hidden Power Fire isn't even first slash worthy since it makes Latias lose to Latios and Gengar, and you don't need to deal with Scizor and Ferrothorn urgently (Latias walls Ferrothorn shitless with Substitute).

 

[Setsuna]

Skarmory's physically and specially defensive sets are the best ones anyone could compare this against, and that alone creates a pretty solid argument. The discussion here about either merging this Latias set with the already existent one or giving it a new analysis is really not worth the effort -- different playstyle combined with a key different spread allowing Latias to make use of a different strategy is pretty sound and good enough to make it warrant its own separate spot onsite. Let's call it a day and focus on the write-up now, folks.

 

[twash]

I have now edited in the write-up to the first post, apologies for the delay. It is ready for its GP checks.

 

[Snorlaxe]

GP CHECK 1/2

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[SET]
name: Physically Defensive Calm Mind
move 1: Dragon Pulse
move 2: Recover
move 3: Calm Mind
move 4: Reflect
item: Leftovers
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 228 Def / 28 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>This set gives a more defensive twist to Latias, in comparison to the standard Calm Mind set. By increasing her physical bulk and utilizing Reflect, Latias is able to stand up to several physical powerhouses. under a Reflect. Courtesy of her great typing and superb Special Defense, this Latias is still able to withhold sponge many powerful and common special attacks.</p>

<p>Reflect really raises the boundary of Latias's aptitude, especially when combined with the defensive EV spread. Allowing Latias to take less damage from the hard-hitting Choice Band Tyranitar and Scizor is always advantageous; Latias can easily outspeed both, and importantly use Reflect to sponge their assaults. Should either use Pursuit, Latias can easily begin to set up six Calm Minds, save for fearing nothing but a critical hit. Latias can also take Scizor's U-turn with a surprising amount of ease, considering its power and the fact that it hits Latias for super effective typing. damage. Choice Scarf Tyranitar may well Crunch Latias before you can Reflect, but on average Latias will typically be able to Reflect on the turn it she takes the Crunch, Recover a few times, and then switch out safely.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
<p>The Speed EVs allow Latias to outspeed all non-Choice Scarf Politoed, also beating Adamant Dragonite by extension. However, there are a few other Speed benchmarks that you may wish to aim for. 252 HP / 184 Def / 72 Spe with a Timid nature can be used if you want to outspeed neutral Base 100 Speed Pokemon, such as Salamence, also allowing Latias to while also outspeeding outspeed Rotom-W and Adamant Haxorus. You can bump this up further to 152 Speed EVs, allowing you Latias to beat Jolly Haxorus, Haxorus. or alternatively Alternatively, it is feasible just run a simple 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe set with a Timid nature. By maximizing Latias's Speed, she can get the jump on Terrakion, Virizion, and Infernape, albeit in return for a significant drop in defensive ability.</p>

good analysis; short, sweet, and to the point.

 

[twash]

Thank you for the GP check, I have completed the changes.