elDino
Deal With It.
OFFENSE - how to play Pokemon like a man
If you wanna talk about stall or more defensive pussy playstyles go and check out this thread.
Sarcasm of course...
Well, let's start out with the recent bans. Removing Excadrill and Thundurus from the metagame has made offensive playstyles a heck of a lot more effective. Specifically, being able to attack without Excadrill coming in and revenge killing you is a major boon, and the absence of Thundurus's priority Thunder Wave doesn't go amiss either. Now, feel free to use some of the previously lesser used Pokemon such as Lucario (which is pretty effective at the moment) and Salamence to start wreaking some havoc on teams.
There are many different variants of offense. The most common are probably rain offense, dual screens offense, sun teams, and a general offensive team, which usually carries Tyranitar just to help deal with the other weathers.
Rain Offense consists of a Politoed along with a few other sweepers. Usually a strong Water-type attacker that can abuse boosted attacks is used, with Pokemon like Starmie taking this option too. Starmie is effective due to its high Speed and absolutely excellent Hydro Pump under the rain; it's extremely powerful. Rotom-W also works well here. Its great secondary Electric STAB means it's able to take out the Water-types that like to switch into Hydro Pump, so other teams often have to resort to using a Grass-type like Celebi or a special sponge such as Blissey to take the attack. Rotom-W can just Volt Switch away from these Pokemon or cripple them with Trick. Other less used options for this spot include Pokemon like Sharpedo, which boasts an incredibly strong Waterfall and can sweep really well after a few boosts from its ability: Speed Boost. A bulky offensive Vaporeon can also work quite well, as its pretty sweet Special Attack stat is often underestimated. Finally, Specs Jellicent is something everyone should try out; it's a great lure as a Specs Water Spout hurts absolutely everything; Rotom-W is almost OHKOed by the attack.
Other Pokemon commonly seen on rain offense teams include Pokemon that can abuse Thunder or Hurricane. Dragonite immediately comes to mind as it can spam both attacks to great effect. It is also able to pick of threatening sweepers with ExtremeSpeed as well as lure in and KO Tyranitar with Superpower. Dragonite is perhaps the most common Pokemon on a rain team at present, mainly due to its excellent versatility. It can use a Choice Band, or even a Dragon Dance set. Yeah, beware of that thing... Tornadus can also work excellently on a rain team. Specs Hurricane hurts... a lot. Just spamming that move can win matches, since it is just incredibly strong. Jolteon is also pretty good, as Specs Thunders are ridiculously powerful, and it can spam them to full effect. Only Ground-types and Ferrothorn are strong enough to take those Thunders, but Jolteon can just Baton Pass to a substitute.
Dual Screens offense is next. Basically, give something both Light Screen and Reflect, switch in, set them up, then let your sweepers loose. With dual screens, most frail sweepers have a much easier time setting up, which means they may be able to set up more than once!
To begin with, these teams need a Pokemon that can set up the screens. Deoxys-S is the first Pokemon that comes to mind; it practically always gets up screens thanks to its ridiculously high Speed stat. Practically the only way to stop it is with Choice Band Tyranitar, but Deoxys-S can run Superpower and enough Attack EVs to OHKO it if it needs. Using Deoxys-S, though, means you can't utilize its ability as an excellent sweeper under screens, but we'll get back to that. Other suitable options for setting up dual screens include Espeon and Xatu, which can both utilize their Magic Bounce ability to ward of status and hazards.
Regarding sweepers, you can use anything from relatively frail Pokemon such as Lucario and Terrakion to bulkier Pokemon like Dragonite and Scrafty. Lucario appreciates the extra boost to its defenses, as it can then switch in on attacks like Scizor's Bullet Punch with a lot less difficulty, grab a Swords Dance, and then sweep. Terrakion appreciates being able to survive moves such as Bullet Punch, and it also appreciates having the ability to survive against faster Pokemon like Choice Scarf Heatran, Gengar, and Landorus, provided it hasn't had too many defense drops from Close Combat. On the other hand, bulky Pokemon appreciate dual screens as it allows them to set up multiple boosts. Dragonite can often grab two or three Dragon Dances under screens, and Scrafty is in the same boat. It's pretty much game over if you let either of those two get enough boosts. There are various other sweepers, I'm sure, but that's for you guys to talk about!
Sun Teams are also great at the moment in this metagame. With Ninetales and a bunch of fast, offensive sweepers such as Venusaur and Volcarona on the loose, you must always be wary. Dugtrio is often seen to get rid of Tyranitar easily, so you must always beware of switching Tyranitar in and out too often to change the weather.
A new threat is Sunny Day Ninetales. Ninetales uses Sunny Day as an opposing weather starter switches in, allowing it to fire off a super effective SolarBeam, or in the case of the rare Abomasnow, Fire Blast. Ninetales is seen as one of the weaker weather starters, though, so don't expect too much from it.
In terms of sun sweepers, Venusaur works well thanks to its ability, Chlorophyll. When used in conjunction with Growth, Venusaur is certainly a formidable threat, especially since it has Sleep Powder to help it take out a possible check. Volcarona is also very effective, and it can run a plethora of very effective sets to help give it that sense of "oh shit, it's Volcarona... what's it gonna do??!!!". Life Orb + Quiver Dance is pretty effective, as is Rest + Chesto Berry. A set with Substitute works well too, and it enables Volcarona to have a high chance of burning any physical attackers that try to revenge kill it thanks to its ability: Flame Body.
4drag2mag or other Dragon spam teams aim to eliminate Steel-types with Magnezone and sometimes Magneton too in order for Dragon-types to spam ridiculously powerful STAB attacks. Dragon-types like Haxorus, Dragonite, Latios, and Hydregion can just spam their Dragon attacks to no end, since all Steel-types are eliminated with Magnezone/ton. PKGaming's enter the dragon portrayed this strategy excellently, as it was used very often when Garchomp was still around.
General Offense Teams are the last major kind of offensive team. Basically, just slap on six sweepers and away you go. Tyranitar is usually used here to help against other weathers and you often see Deoxys-S trying to set up as many hazards as it can before a barrage of sweepers hits the field. Practically anything can be found on these teams: set up sweepers, choice users and just general hard-hitters.
SO YEAH...
That's offense in a nutshell as I see it. Talk about what works, what doesn't work, new strategies, and old strategies.
I have a few general questions I want to hear your opinions on:
Just... DISCUSS!
I'll keep track of this thread and name all good contributions in the OP; I look forward to seeing how this goes!
NixHex said:Attempting to start some discussion as part of the movement to set DST in a positive direction. I plan to update the OP since a large number of existing OPs have just rotted away. I'll credit people who respond with good info so no vital information gets lost among tens or hundreds of pages.
If you wanna talk about stall or more defensive pussy playstyles go and check out this thread.
Sarcasm of course...
Well, let's start out with the recent bans. Removing Excadrill and Thundurus from the metagame has made offensive playstyles a heck of a lot more effective. Specifically, being able to attack without Excadrill coming in and revenge killing you is a major boon, and the absence of Thundurus's priority Thunder Wave doesn't go amiss either. Now, feel free to use some of the previously lesser used Pokemon such as Lucario (which is pretty effective at the moment) and Salamence to start wreaking some havoc on teams.
There are many different variants of offense. The most common are probably rain offense, dual screens offense, sun teams, and a general offensive team, which usually carries Tyranitar just to help deal with the other weathers.
Rain Offense consists of a Politoed along with a few other sweepers. Usually a strong Water-type attacker that can abuse boosted attacks is used, with Pokemon like Starmie taking this option too. Starmie is effective due to its high Speed and absolutely excellent Hydro Pump under the rain; it's extremely powerful. Rotom-W also works well here. Its great secondary Electric STAB means it's able to take out the Water-types that like to switch into Hydro Pump, so other teams often have to resort to using a Grass-type like Celebi or a special sponge such as Blissey to take the attack. Rotom-W can just Volt Switch away from these Pokemon or cripple them with Trick. Other less used options for this spot include Pokemon like Sharpedo, which boasts an incredibly strong Waterfall and can sweep really well after a few boosts from its ability: Speed Boost. A bulky offensive Vaporeon can also work quite well, as its pretty sweet Special Attack stat is often underestimated. Finally, Specs Jellicent is something everyone should try out; it's a great lure as a Specs Water Spout hurts absolutely everything; Rotom-W is almost OHKOed by the attack.
Other Pokemon commonly seen on rain offense teams include Pokemon that can abuse Thunder or Hurricane. Dragonite immediately comes to mind as it can spam both attacks to great effect. It is also able to pick of threatening sweepers with ExtremeSpeed as well as lure in and KO Tyranitar with Superpower. Dragonite is perhaps the most common Pokemon on a rain team at present, mainly due to its excellent versatility. It can use a Choice Band, or even a Dragon Dance set. Yeah, beware of that thing... Tornadus can also work excellently on a rain team. Specs Hurricane hurts... a lot. Just spamming that move can win matches, since it is just incredibly strong. Jolteon is also pretty good, as Specs Thunders are ridiculously powerful, and it can spam them to full effect. Only Ground-types and Ferrothorn are strong enough to take those Thunders, but Jolteon can just Baton Pass to a substitute.
Dual Screens offense is next. Basically, give something both Light Screen and Reflect, switch in, set them up, then let your sweepers loose. With dual screens, most frail sweepers have a much easier time setting up, which means they may be able to set up more than once!
To begin with, these teams need a Pokemon that can set up the screens. Deoxys-S is the first Pokemon that comes to mind; it practically always gets up screens thanks to its ridiculously high Speed stat. Practically the only way to stop it is with Choice Band Tyranitar, but Deoxys-S can run Superpower and enough Attack EVs to OHKO it if it needs. Using Deoxys-S, though, means you can't utilize its ability as an excellent sweeper under screens, but we'll get back to that. Other suitable options for setting up dual screens include Espeon and Xatu, which can both utilize their Magic Bounce ability to ward of status and hazards.
Regarding sweepers, you can use anything from relatively frail Pokemon such as Lucario and Terrakion to bulkier Pokemon like Dragonite and Scrafty. Lucario appreciates the extra boost to its defenses, as it can then switch in on attacks like Scizor's Bullet Punch with a lot less difficulty, grab a Swords Dance, and then sweep. Terrakion appreciates being able to survive moves such as Bullet Punch, and it also appreciates having the ability to survive against faster Pokemon like Choice Scarf Heatran, Gengar, and Landorus, provided it hasn't had too many defense drops from Close Combat. On the other hand, bulky Pokemon appreciate dual screens as it allows them to set up multiple boosts. Dragonite can often grab two or three Dragon Dances under screens, and Scrafty is in the same boat. It's pretty much game over if you let either of those two get enough boosts. There are various other sweepers, I'm sure, but that's for you guys to talk about!
Sun Teams are also great at the moment in this metagame. With Ninetales and a bunch of fast, offensive sweepers such as Venusaur and Volcarona on the loose, you must always be wary. Dugtrio is often seen to get rid of Tyranitar easily, so you must always beware of switching Tyranitar in and out too often to change the weather.
A new threat is Sunny Day Ninetales. Ninetales uses Sunny Day as an opposing weather starter switches in, allowing it to fire off a super effective SolarBeam, or in the case of the rare Abomasnow, Fire Blast. Ninetales is seen as one of the weaker weather starters, though, so don't expect too much from it.
In terms of sun sweepers, Venusaur works well thanks to its ability, Chlorophyll. When used in conjunction with Growth, Venusaur is certainly a formidable threat, especially since it has Sleep Powder to help it take out a possible check. Volcarona is also very effective, and it can run a plethora of very effective sets to help give it that sense of "oh shit, it's Volcarona... what's it gonna do??!!!". Life Orb + Quiver Dance is pretty effective, as is Rest + Chesto Berry. A set with Substitute works well too, and it enables Volcarona to have a high chance of burning any physical attackers that try to revenge kill it thanks to its ability: Flame Body.
4drag2mag or other Dragon spam teams aim to eliminate Steel-types with Magnezone and sometimes Magneton too in order for Dragon-types to spam ridiculously powerful STAB attacks. Dragon-types like Haxorus, Dragonite, Latios, and Hydregion can just spam their Dragon attacks to no end, since all Steel-types are eliminated with Magnezone/ton. PKGaming's enter the dragon portrayed this strategy excellently, as it was used very often when Garchomp was still around.
Omicron said:Why isn't 4Drag2Mag mentioned in the OP? With Thundurus gone, things like Haxorus, Latios, etc, no longer have to fear a priority Thunder Wave except from Volbeat (lol). With paralysis support, things like Swords Dance Haxorus actually become pretty effective. I've used a team with SD Haxorus with SD / Outrage / EQ / Taunt (for status users), Steel-Killer Zone, and some paralysis support along with entry hazards, and it can OHKO basically the whole world after a boost + Life Orb, especially after entry hazard damage. Mold Breaker allows it to destroy Bronzong and other Levitators, and Mold Breaker Outrage dgaf about MultiScale Dragonite. Latios can similarly wreak havoc on the special side, and is a nice complement to the physical Haxorus. In addition, 4Drag2Mag is pretty easy to use.
General Offense Teams are the last major kind of offensive team. Basically, just slap on six sweepers and away you go. Tyranitar is usually used here to help against other weathers and you often see Deoxys-S trying to set up as many hazards as it can before a barrage of sweepers hits the field. Practically anything can be found on these teams: set up sweepers, choice users and just general hard-hitters.
Zurich said:Trick Room Offense doesn't usually seem to be worth it, but in reality it can actually be very effective and dismantle many a sun team whose Chlorophyll boosts are reversed among others! Trick Room tends to be made up of a few Trick Room setters which may or may not take advantage of it though they usually do, especially the likes of TR Reuniclus, Porygon2, and Bronzong. Attackers in Trick Room can vary but they usually hit very hard off of the bat (occasionally with CB but more often than not LO attackers are cool) and don't use boosting moves - if they do they're +2 ones like Nasty Plot, in the case of Slowking or SD Ferrothorn. A good Trick Room team also usaully contains at least one Pokemon that can function nicely outside of Trick Room (again, Porygon2, Reuniclus, and Bronzong all work nicely). Trick Room only lasts for five turns, so taking advantage of that is key.
SO YEAH...
That's offense in a nutshell as I see it. Talk about what works, what doesn't work, new strategies, and old strategies.
I have a few general questions I want to hear your opinions on:
- What is the best type of offense?
- How does offense do in the current metagame?
- What issues are there with offense?
- How does each playstyle fair against the others?
- What combinations of offensive Pokemon work well?
Just... DISCUSS!
I'll keep track of this thread and name all good contributions in the OP; I look forward to seeing how this goes!
Relevant Contributions (October 2011)[/I]]
Tomahawk9's introduction to stacking and using two similar offensive Pokemon to break through the others counters.
Pocket's more in-depth points about special offense stacking, and what Pokemon can be used effectively.
Omicron's introduction to 4drag2mag strategies.
Zurich's introduction to Trick Room offense.
Innocent Criminal's Wobbuffet + Deoxys-S + Cloyster core.
ssbbm's in depth guide to Hyper Offense.
Stathakis's "Hyper Offense Philosophy".
Tomahawk9's introduction to stacking and using two similar offensive Pokemon to break through the others counters.
Pocket's more in-depth points about special offense stacking, and what Pokemon can be used effectively.
Omicron's introduction to 4drag2mag strategies.
Zurich's introduction to Trick Room offense.
Innocent Criminal's Wobbuffet + Deoxys-S + Cloyster core.
ssbbm's in depth guide to Hyper Offense.
Stathakis's "Hyper Offense Philosophy".
Let's get it...