As most of you have probably noticed...

[Blue_Tornado]

CM mafia is dying.

This is because people have lost interest. Multifaction is a clusterfuck and 2v1 is wrecked by VILLAGE LEADER SYSTEM. Without something new to get people in the mood to be competitive again, we're not going to see many games.

Since I don't have any smart ideas for new game concepts, I say we should go back to the basics. How would people feel about some NOC games? Or maybe non-NOC games without power roles everywhere? Would someome mind hosting one / does someone have experience in hosting one? Do we have enough players that actually know -something- about scumhunting?

Either talk about game concepts that would make people thrilled to play or give your opinion about my suggestion. I'm posting this because there are plenty of new and old players that are hating this "down time" just as much as I am.

 

[Da Letter El]

I have a semi-NOC game in development and pretty much just need approval on the roles, talking to my cohost again to make sure he's as down with the ideas as I am, and then writing the role PMs. It's been sitting on google docs for a month because I'm lazy but I'm happy to get that going.

 

[Ampharos]

I like the idea of going back to good old-fashioned NOC mafia, but a big reason that the game is dying is that people are getting lazy with making games. They get a great idea, work on it manically for a few days, and then forget about it. The people who DO stick with their games forget to put enough thought into game balance, leading to the recent 2v1 beginner curbstomps and The Mafia-Which-Shall-Not-Be-Named *coughturnipcough*. Smogon mafia can be revived, but it's up to us, the players, to revive it.

 

[Quagsires]

I have an even BETTER idea:

Instead of talking about doing NOCs, let's have someone create one!

And then we run into the problems above...

 

[Ampharos]

Cranking out an NOC as we speak. Hopefully no problems (though given my hosting track record...)

 

[shinyskarmory]

I have a very Viva-like mafia game in development. I'll probably do NOC as well since I am IRC oblivious. (example: banned Obbmud from #pmd for spamming, but had no idea how to unban him)
Also might do a PMD Mafia 2...this time with no sending out claims.

 

[Ampharos]

NOC and Viva-Like probably won't mix well, since Viva games require private negotiations, which NOC doesn't allow.

 

[polelover44]

Multifaction is a clusterfuck because the experienced players aren't playing, and the beginners don't know how.

In my opinion, the key to a good multifaction game is to make it a balanced clusterfuck - ordered chaos, if you will. This requires a good, active playerbase, which we would have if we were to make more games to get the beginners assimilated. The problem with multifaction is that very few, if any, games have found the perfect formula for 'ordered chaos' - 1v1v1 presents a kingmaker scenario, 1v1v1 with a hidden faction is generally dominated by the hidden faction etc.

Metal Gear Solid was quite good, if memory serves (did not play). We'll need trial and error to find a good multifaction, formula, and we'll need more multifaction games to establish a good, experienced, active playerbase.

In short: Keep churning out the shitty multifaction games until you find a good one - better shitty mafia than no mafia; when you find a good formula we'll use that.

Alternatively, put in restrictions in 2v1 to make it very hard to have an effective village leader. Apart from a shitload of moles, I can't think of any, but if the village leader system were removed, 2v1 would be fine. With the right restrictions, it would take a lot of skill and luck to be a good leader, and the village would have to collaborate to win, rather than just picking up the nearest pitchfork and torch and following the leader.

 

[Acklow]

I've been trying to crank out a mafia. I just haven't had the time to pull it off. My fulltime job and school have been getting in the way. So if you want any progress reports on what I'm working on I'll give you this: it's still in the works. It'll be quite a few months before it is finished though. I have plenty of ideas, its just that time is a difficult obstacle to deal with.

 

[jumpluff]

I have a very Viva-like mafia game in development. I'll probably do NOC as well since I am IRC oblivious. (example: banned Obbmud from #pmd for spamming, but had no idea how to unban him)
Also might do a PMD Mafia 2...this time with no sending out claims.

As Walrein said, Viva and NOC won't mesh well. The thing that is good about the Viva format is that it is highly political. It requires a lot of private negotiations to flourish, inter-faction, intra-faction, and between potential recruits and the leaders of factions. It simply won't work in-thread. That said the Viva format also has a number of other problems (like kingmaker and the fact the team that does the best gets ganged up on and punished for taking a lead) that I think need to be worked on. If you don't know how to use IRC, that doesn't mean you have to make it NOC... get an active cohost who knows how to use IRC well, or give permanent op to a few non-players who will join the channel to help you out.

NOC games are ruined even more than their regular counterparts by inactivity and people losing interest because the days take forever, so all I can say to the next NOC host is don't let days go on indefinitely...

 

[Blue_Tornado]

multifaction multifaction we want multifaction

Here's my take on "why this idea is bad":
1) This last year or so has seen plenty of multifaction games being churned out, and no big progress was made.
2) Not all multifaction games are bad, it's just that the whole multifaction concept is getting stale/boring.

NOC games were just a suggestion. It shouldn't (read: definitely shouldn't) limit whatever game you're planning on doing. Also, NOC games are perfectly fine with smaller deadlines as well. Of course, assuming the village doesn't idle through 24hrs of scumhunting or something, which is kind of dependent on how competitive they are, or how much NOC experience they have.

About 2v1 - games that hinder the village leader system is definitely a good idea, and is what I'm going for right now. I actually have a game in the planning (early planning) but I shouldn't be able to execute it until "busy season" is over.

 

[smashlloyd20]

Hi guys

First, I have a multifaction game in development and you guys are making me feel sad :(

On a more serious note, good multifaction games are possible. It's just that they require a) a good, active playerbase, which is pretty rare right now, and b) balance, which is extremely difficult for a multifaction game.

In my opinion, when executed correctly multifaction games can be good when executed properly; the only problem is that execution.

 

[Acklow]

A good active playerbase is tough to obtain these days because nobody expects a gem of a game to come about anymore. Especially since most good hosts are now inactive or doing things in other parts of Smogon, we don't find that kind of stuff as much anymore. I think that many recent games (at least before I went on my semi-inactive streak) show that if there would've been a good active playerbase with decent players, the game would've went well. Unfortunately activity has been and always will be a problem with mafia games. And like I said earlier, good games being created are only hindered by the lack of time on many good hosts' parts.

 

[Blue_Tornado]

Smashlloyd20: I'm only saying that multifaction shouldn't be the norm. I am not denying the possibility of a good multifaction game. If you have a game prepped, by all means, go for it.

 

[Metal Bagon]

In the works Dummy007 and I have Percy Jackson game. We have about half the roles done but if someone can give me an idea for an anit-village leader role our game could be an expirement for it.

Also, me being a slight-mafia noob and all, what does NOC stand for?

 

[jumpluff]

NOC = No Outside Communication. It means you can't communicate with players outside of the thread unless the host includes it in your role (usually, mafia are able to communicate with each other externally to plan, but everyone else has to stick to the thread). This is the traditional form of mafia that is played on sites like mafiascum.

There have been a few NOC games on Smogon; you can search them to get an idea of how they're played... the Lockdown games, Desktop Dungeons... some other one(s) but I forgot their names.

 

[Mekkah]

People have sort of run out of ideas/energy, it was going to happen inevitably. It's only natural. I'm sure it will actually be good for the game for a change. Quantity over quality.

 

[shinyskarmory]

I'm currently in the early planning stages for PMD 2 and another semi-open theme game.

Right now, though, I'm more interested in playing mafia than hosting it.

One of the two should be ready in a month.

 

[Chomz]

Objection and I have an open-theme Standard game that was just sent off for approval. Thing is, we're really hoping to get more experienced players signing up... though it would be interesting to get a player list full of first-timers and see how they play off each other. :D

 

[jumpluff]

We just had like five beginner games; it's cool to see another standard.

 

[Mekkah]

I somehow rapidly made an Expert Game that's intended to let the 24 best players we have leftover at the moment duke it out to show how it's done.

 

[Chomz]

Any chance I can join? :D

 

[Mekkah]

Small chance, depends on how many well known players join.

 

[askaninjask]

Well, what makes mafia fun is the paranoia involved, and the best system we currently have for creating that paranoia is the village/mole system. Games without this aspect will most likely become dull without some other source of paranoia. This is why viva games have become uninteresting, same with multifaction, TCG style... we have yet to find a substitute for the paranoia involved with villages and moles.

Wildeep and I are working on a game too, one that tries to exploit the village/mole system for all it has, but I'm swamped with "real life" obligations, and so is he.

Daenym also had so many games planned... it's a shame he left.

 

[zorbees]

I think the issue with the village leader system is that it makes the games somewhat formulaic. Obviously there will be some deviations, but I've seen a lot of recent games get played out in a similar manner. Whether this is from the village leader system and everyone knowing how it works, or the deteriorating player base, I am not sure. I kind of want to see a few games where the village leader system wouldn't work, but I don't know how these would play out. I think it would need a good game design though, to discourage village leaders and sheeping, and encourage everyone to form their own opinions and get their own information, while not allowing the mafia(s?) to steamroll the village.