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rethinking the way smogon is operated.
- Thread starter Umbreon Dan
- Start date
I already have the opportunity to exchange some words with Dan about this, but I feel the need to post here because, as others say, I think there's some merit in the OP. At the same time, I think that some hostility towards the poster is not necessarily unwarranted (such is the case with DK), and since I somehow feel guilty for it to a certain extent, I want to step in and give my 2 cents.
About point 1:
I used to share the same thoughts U_D expressed about the C&C's slowishness and lack of openness towards contributors. But since I have tried my hand with the system recently, I just realized how wrong I was. Both my article went through the GP phase very swiftly (I take the opportunity to thank the staff for this), and it went on-site in a matter of days. The difference between my case, and the many other of stuff which - to use your same wording - "rot in C&C" for months, is that I wrote my article at very fast speed, without leaving a worthless WIP skeleton up for months, and I took care of the HTML process myself. If you are serious about your contribution, you can get your content uploaded 1 month at max from the day you started writing it.
tl;dr: C&C is not slow because of the staff. The staff is very efficient and helpful. If the contributors were just as efficient, we'd produce loads of stuff each month (instead of having less than 10 articles on-site compared to the dozens rotting in the subforum). Your proposed solution doesn't address the main problem and possibly aggravates it.
About point 2:
What capefeather said
About point 3:
This is the point I agree the most. IS is already as secretive as it is (not debating whether it is right or wrong, just pointing that out). We don't need a PR which is just a sort of "IS showcase" (I'm talking especially to you, tennis, based on what you said). We definitely need to raise the participation in the PR subforum, and accept larger contribution from the base. There are a lot of people who have the maturity necessary to debate a PR issue without having a badge. Really, part of the reason PR is ostensibly dead these last weeks is because you're adamantine about tackling everything in IS and IS only. Please, stop doing that. Not everything is IS exclusive.
About point 4:
No really, you're totally mistaken about this. Do you see the Economist making its half-written articles public before releasing the issue? No magazine worth of this name would do that.
About point 1:
I used to share the same thoughts U_D expressed about the C&C's slowishness and lack of openness towards contributors. But since I have tried my hand with the system recently, I just realized how wrong I was. Both my article went through the GP phase very swiftly (I take the opportunity to thank the staff for this), and it went on-site in a matter of days. The difference between my case, and the many other of stuff which - to use your same wording - "rot in C&C" for months, is that I wrote my article at very fast speed, without leaving a worthless WIP skeleton up for months, and I took care of the HTML process myself. If you are serious about your contribution, you can get your content uploaded 1 month at max from the day you started writing it.
tl;dr: C&C is not slow because of the staff. The staff is very efficient and helpful. If the contributors were just as efficient, we'd produce loads of stuff each month (instead of having less than 10 articles on-site compared to the dozens rotting in the subforum). Your proposed solution doesn't address the main problem and possibly aggravates it.
About point 2:
What capefeather said
About point 3:
This is the point I agree the most. IS is already as secretive as it is (not debating whether it is right or wrong, just pointing that out). We don't need a PR which is just a sort of "IS showcase" (I'm talking especially to you, tennis, based on what you said). We definitely need to raise the participation in the PR subforum, and accept larger contribution from the base. There are a lot of people who have the maturity necessary to debate a PR issue without having a badge. Really, part of the reason PR is ostensibly dead these last weeks is because you're adamantine about tackling everything in IS and IS only. Please, stop doing that. Not everything is IS exclusive.
About point 4:
No really, you're totally mistaken about this. Do you see the Economist making its half-written articles public before releasing the issue? No magazine worth of this name would do that.
This, and other similar statements, say one thing to me: You're harnessing some users well, but missing out on the contributions of the vast majority of casual, but useful people. The fact that you need to push your work through the system creates a large barrier to entry, when there need be none. Doing part of an analysis, writing the outline of a guide and working out how it should go roughly, fixing up a few things here and there, this should be easy and natural. Instead users without the time and dedication to get through the whole peer review system themselves are unable to get content on site, and it goes to waste. Massive amounts of effort from good faith potentially useful contributors goes to waste.
Eric, I do not intend to call out anyone in particular, but do I have to show you how many analyses and articles are still looking like the index of a book after over a month since they were posted? Once the authors wrote their stuff, the C&C process is very efficient in checking and processing their work. But you can't expect your article or your analysis to go on-site until you... well, until you write it! If
means I have to write an article before it goes on-site, then yeah, I had to push it. /sarcasm
Smogon clearly produces a lot of good content and I have never disputed that, my claim is that the system fails to take advantage of a large proportion of available resources by having a very closed contribution system (the initial investment for a user to learn the system and make something for smogon is massive, and they are often discouraged by having work which could easily be brought to standard by communal editing simply binned) and handles what it does use wastefully.
With a reasonable content management system the idea that a single author needs to push something through a lengthy peer review process vanishes (I'm not saying change the peer review system, it's good at what it does, it just does something that should be taken care of naturally by a well structured site). This has been demonstrated on many very successful sites, and lowers the barrier to entry to about as low as it gets which means more people helping out! This is especially important for a site such as ours where a large majority of the people who could lend a hand really don't have time to mess around with our peer review systems and just want to get something useful on site or fixed/updated.
There isn't a rule in C&C that says you as the main author have to write the whole article/analysis, it's just more convenient if you do. If you and other people want to collaborate, then by golly, go ahead and collaborate. The writers of the Smog do this all the time too.
Also, there are a shit-ton of articles in Past gen and even now in 5th gen that have been waiting for their "author" or somebody to freaking write the damn thing. But here's the kicker, anybody is free to post in the thread or PM/VM the author and say "hey I wanna help out with your article, I can write this and this section. Cool Thanks!"
The fact of the matter is, there just aren't that many people who want to contribute or are too bad at English to be able to (which is a real shame, because those who aren't good at English can't really submit something without it having to be almost completely rewritten so that it's coherent and up to standards).
Plus, we get about 4-5 submissions to the Small Changes Threads in C&C a day, and they are taken care of almost immediately. I feel that the system we have now for C&C works out just fine.
EDIT: This isn't directed entirely at you ete, just the conversation in general of the thread.
Also, there are a shit-ton of articles in Past gen and even now in 5th gen that have been waiting for their "author" or somebody to freaking write the damn thing. But here's the kicker, anybody is free to post in the thread or PM/VM the author and say "hey I wanna help out with your article, I can write this and this section. Cool Thanks!"
The fact of the matter is, there just aren't that many people who want to contribute or are too bad at English to be able to (which is a real shame, because those who aren't good at English can't really submit something without it having to be almost completely rewritten so that it's coherent and up to standards).
Plus, we get about 4-5 submissions to the Small Changes Threads in C&C a day, and they are taken care of almost immediately. I feel that the system we have now for C&C works out just fine.
EDIT: This isn't directed entirely at you ete, just the conversation in general of the thread.
andrea
/me cresselias
I do agree with the first three points in the OP. However, I see a lot of defensive posts arguing that articles and analyses do not rot in C&C. I understand that there are areas of the site where C&C works well but there is no reason to say that everything gets quickly uploaded to the site. Proof?
Here and also here. I can't even find the completed 09 and 10 articles that discussed Sandstorm, Protect, Explosion, Rain Dance, and other general team strategies.
We currently have two sections in C&C where articles are rotting. Yes, Smogon is a singles-focused website, but there are plenty of dedicated VGC players who write these analyses but never get recognition for their work.
Does anyone else think that the first link is absolutely disgusting? There are four pages of completed analyses that will never see the light of day because the 2011 season is over. Who cares about the users that worked on 10+ analyses and finished them quickly? They don't even matter anymore! These analyses were started way back last November and had plenty of time to be useful for other players. Even if you don't care about the VGC metagame, I'm sure you can at least realize that we missed a chance to encourage hundreds of new users to sign up for an account because we support Nintendo's official metagame.
The VGC 12 season starts in four days and I wouldn't be surprised if the completed articles in that forum aren't ever uploaded while they are still relevant, either. Let them all rot in C&C until someone actually takes the time to put them up where they belong. If users had the opportunity to upload them on their own, I know the dedicated VGC community would work on developing that part of the site.
Here and also here. I can't even find the completed 09 and 10 articles that discussed Sandstorm, Protect, Explosion, Rain Dance, and other general team strategies.
We currently have two sections in C&C where articles are rotting. Yes, Smogon is a singles-focused website, but there are plenty of dedicated VGC players who write these analyses but never get recognition for their work.
Does anyone else think that the first link is absolutely disgusting? There are four pages of completed analyses that will never see the light of day because the 2011 season is over. Who cares about the users that worked on 10+ analyses and finished them quickly? They don't even matter anymore! These analyses were started way back last November and had plenty of time to be useful for other players. Even if you don't care about the VGC metagame, I'm sure you can at least realize that we missed a chance to encourage hundreds of new users to sign up for an account because we support Nintendo's official metagame.
The VGC 12 season starts in four days and I wouldn't be surprised if the completed articles in that forum aren't ever uploaded while they are still relevant, either. Let them all rot in C&C until someone actually takes the time to put them up where they belong. If users had the opportunity to upload them on their own, I know the dedicated VGC community would work on developing that part of the site.
andrea
/me cresselias
I'm not blaming the C&C mods for the fact that they aren't there. I'm arguing in favor of posting articles directly to the website by using an example of some very stagnant analyses. If this feature was available, capable members would be able to add such articles while they are still relevant.
By "the feature", we mean the analysis tabs that have been promised to us for a *very* long time and never implemented. It wouldn't matter if every single user on Smogon had access to the SCMS, there would still be no place to put them.
Well technically we could put them on the same analysis pages as the other ones, but the tag would have to look like for the set name (for example Amoonguss) VGC 2011 Rage Powder or VGC 2012 Rage Powder (kinda like the OU Double Status set name).
Which I wouldn't be totally against and they then would get put onsite, but it'd be pretty ugly imo.
Which I wouldn't be totally against and they then would get put onsite, but it'd be pretty ugly imo.
The C&C process is something that comes under attack every month or so. The fact of the matter is that the C&C process is very streamlined and efficient if you're proactive. If you make it your business to get in contact with the QCers, GPers, and then a mod, you can have your article or analysis up in no time. Most of us have other obligations though, so we can't watch every piece of work like a hawk. In fact, if you look at the analysis that are languishing, they are either from us unfortunately not having the right features to upload (see the ones you linked or the Arceus analyses which I would love to get online) or the author ditching somewhere along the line.
I totally agree with andrea, even if it did look a little ugly on-site, in the end we really need to cater to everyone looking at our site. VGC 11 is done and yet no analyses were uploaded because of this restriction on site, but what's stopping us from doing what Oglemi said and putting a (VGC) tag or something?
Tons of VGC writers are efficient, and there are a few users who have even received Contributor from their contributions to VGC Analyses alone, yet they don't get the final recognition of having their work put on site. It's not anyone's fault, it's just that there definitely needs to be something done about this.
Even if we don't have the right features, we have the ability to upload even if its not the most beautiful thing, and yet we still have a forum full of analyses that probably won't see themselves on-site ever, and this will continue until we can change that.
Sorry if this is rehashing what's already been said.
Tons of VGC writers are efficient, and there are a few users who have even received Contributor from their contributions to VGC Analyses alone, yet they don't get the final recognition of having their work put on site. It's not anyone's fault, it's just that there definitely needs to be something done about this.
Even if we don't have the right features, we have the ability to upload even if its not the most beautiful thing, and yet we still have a forum full of analyses that probably won't see themselves on-site ever, and this will continue until we can change that.
Sorry if this is rehashing what's already been said.
Agreeing 100% with this. I understand the Pokemon analysis deal (even though its been what, a year?) but couldn't you just put a separate tier in and upload the VGC analyses like that? Sure, it wouldn't look good, but at least they're on-site and you can merge them when you do get the coding or whatever. Of course, I don't know anything about the tech side of the main site, so take that for what it's worth.
Sorry EE, but in the case of strategy analysis: Dedication from a few good writers/players > small nitpicks or bits and pieces from a ton of half-assed users anyday, 100%.
And as Oglemi said, there's no problem handing skeletons around or re-assigning analysis, so there you go.
And as Oglemi said, there's no problem handing skeletons around or re-assigning analysis, so there you go.
lol wtf...loling at andrea's post
how the hell did so many analyses just get ignored...
here is a hint guys: if shit was done, and wasn't put up...you just put it up. do whatever you need to do...nag an admin for an extra tier, or just upload them with [VGC] tags or something until "tabs" (lol) are implemented
if i'm understanding this mostly off topic for this topic issue...we just need those analyses thrown on site? so why not...just do it???
i don't necessarily agree with allowing any user to directly post articles / sets to the site (not without some sort of alpha / beta test to see if we have the resources to handle trolls / malcontents). it is important to first follow the process (because the process has time and time again proven to work), but if there is any sign the process isn't giving a certain section its due then i agree with certain badged members "by ear" just uploading stuff directly (preferably while talking to a senior c&c staff member live)
for this example, it looks like a lot of vgc analyses weren't uploaded. looks like c&c mods in general were content with leaving them as is because there wasn't a tab feature implemented, and that justification is fine. however, i am curious why the vgc specific people (specifically those workers who have received contributor badges for their work) didn't make sure those were uploaded in some capacity??
it would take like...a 10 minute discussion to throw up some makeshift policy for getting them up while we wait for tabs lol
so basically...i disagree with immediately allowing any user to post stuff directly until we have a alpha / beta test to determine if we have the resources to handle the inevitable trolls...in the meanwhile, i do agree with allowed certain badged members (preferably with experience in uploading stuff) to just quickly load stuff from a section that is getting ignored due to a lack of technical capacity
EDIT:
[07:16:00] <+zdrup15> I just read that "rethinking the way smogon is operated" thread
[07:16:20] <+zdrup15> and even though I don't agree with the OP, I do agree with what andrea said
[07:16:32] <+zdrup15> vgc analyses should be uploaded even without proper tags
[07:16:32] <+aldaron> idgi tho
[07:16:37] <+aldaron> just do it lol
[07:16:42] <+aldaron> y didnt the vgc people just do it
[07:16:58] <+zdrup15> I don't know, maybe they didn't think that was an option?
[07:17:00] <+aldaron> her post is kinda implying the c&c was at fault there
[07:17:12] <+zdrup15> yeah, it's not c&c's fault
[07:17:19] <+aldaron> wat u mean no option -.-
[07:17:19] <+zdrup15> or at least not the general c&c
[07:17:22] <+aldaron> just do it
[07:17:26] <+aldaron> good philosophy
[07:17:28] <+latrine> spoke to alaka and cosmic earlier, they didnt want to cos it would look ugly as sin
[07:17:44] <+aldaron> AH so vgc mods didnt actually want to do it?
[07:17:48] <+zdrup15> they may have thought the c&c leaders wouldn't accept it
[07:17:51] <+zdrup15> that's what I meant
[07:17:56] <+zdrup15> oh
[07:18:04] <+zdrup15> well, then I don't understand...
[07:18:06] <+aldaron> iirc alaka / cosmic are the vgc related mods
[07:18:11] <+zdrup15> they are
[07:18:19] <+latrine> the vgc mods wanted tabs as much as the rest of us
[07:18:25] <+latrine> so they were waiting too
[07:18:41] <+zdrup15> the uu mods also want them but they decided to upload the analyses anyway
[07:19:05] <+zdrup15> because now those vgc 2011 analyses aren't that useful...
latrine is fatecrashers btw
so regarding this specific issue, i dont think the analyses not being up has much to do with a user inability to post stuff on the site
they could have been up in some fashion if required (is it required now? if yes, then just do it. but i might wait until alaka / cosmic say something)
how the hell did so many analyses just get ignored...
here is a hint guys: if shit was done, and wasn't put up...you just put it up. do whatever you need to do...nag an admin for an extra tier, or just upload them with [VGC] tags or something until "tabs" (lol) are implemented
if i'm understanding this mostly off topic for this topic issue...we just need those analyses thrown on site? so why not...just do it???
i don't necessarily agree with allowing any user to directly post articles / sets to the site (not without some sort of alpha / beta test to see if we have the resources to handle trolls / malcontents). it is important to first follow the process (because the process has time and time again proven to work), but if there is any sign the process isn't giving a certain section its due then i agree with certain badged members "by ear" just uploading stuff directly (preferably while talking to a senior c&c staff member live)
for this example, it looks like a lot of vgc analyses weren't uploaded. looks like c&c mods in general were content with leaving them as is because there wasn't a tab feature implemented, and that justification is fine. however, i am curious why the vgc specific people (specifically those workers who have received contributor badges for their work) didn't make sure those were uploaded in some capacity??
it would take like...a 10 minute discussion to throw up some makeshift policy for getting them up while we wait for tabs lol
so basically...i disagree with immediately allowing any user to post stuff directly until we have a alpha / beta test to determine if we have the resources to handle the inevitable trolls...in the meanwhile, i do agree with allowed certain badged members (preferably with experience in uploading stuff) to just quickly load stuff from a section that is getting ignored due to a lack of technical capacity
EDIT:
[07:16:00] <+zdrup15> I just read that "rethinking the way smogon is operated" thread
[07:16:20] <+zdrup15> and even though I don't agree with the OP, I do agree with what andrea said
[07:16:32] <+zdrup15> vgc analyses should be uploaded even without proper tags
[07:16:32] <+aldaron> idgi tho
[07:16:37] <+aldaron> just do it lol
[07:16:42] <+aldaron> y didnt the vgc people just do it
[07:16:58] <+zdrup15> I don't know, maybe they didn't think that was an option?
[07:17:00] <+aldaron> her post is kinda implying the c&c was at fault there
[07:17:12] <+zdrup15> yeah, it's not c&c's fault
[07:17:19] <+aldaron> wat u mean no option -.-
[07:17:19] <+zdrup15> or at least not the general c&c
[07:17:22] <+aldaron> just do it
[07:17:26] <+aldaron> good philosophy
[07:17:28] <+latrine> spoke to alaka and cosmic earlier, they didnt want to cos it would look ugly as sin
[07:17:44] <+aldaron> AH so vgc mods didnt actually want to do it?
[07:17:48] <+zdrup15> they may have thought the c&c leaders wouldn't accept it
[07:17:51] <+zdrup15> that's what I meant
[07:17:56] <+zdrup15> oh
[07:18:04] <+zdrup15> well, then I don't understand...
[07:18:06] <+aldaron> iirc alaka / cosmic are the vgc related mods
[07:18:11] <+zdrup15> they are
[07:18:19] <+latrine> the vgc mods wanted tabs as much as the rest of us
[07:18:25] <+latrine> so they were waiting too
[07:18:41] <+zdrup15> the uu mods also want them but they decided to upload the analyses anyway
[07:19:05] <+zdrup15> because now those vgc 2011 analyses aren't that useful...
latrine is fatecrashers btw
so regarding this specific issue, i dont think the analyses not being up has much to do with a user inability to post stuff on the site
they could have been up in some fashion if required (is it required now? if yes, then just do it. but i might wait until alaka / cosmic say something)
well the reason it's not done is because c&c as a whole seems against using tags on analyses. the thing I don't get though is that we do that all the time, we just don't call it tags. I remember reading the singles terrakion analysis and seeing "Ubers Choice Scarf". if we can do it there, why not now for this? we already have the stat matrixes anyway, it would just require us doing what we've apparently already done for ou and uber.
Why should we use a system that blocks one of those groups? Most contributors start off as casual and build up, if they are discouraged at the early stage far fewer of them become the kind of powerhouse contributor that is most useful.
That is working around the problems of a system which should never throw up those problems in the first place. It's inefficient, can be insulting, and does not happen enough in a reasonable way to cover the problems (as shown by the large amount of binned work).
@VGC analyses:
Yes, say it's not your fault if you like, the tabs should have been done 2.5 years ago (for such a necessary and fairly simple change (or would be for any site with a programming base which could be edited and active people working on site code), begged for for OVER TWO YEARS by literally hundreds of people working absurdly hard for free.. it boggles the mind how Smogon's still king.), but you cannot defend a system which allows such horrific waste of effort. If you honestly cannot put VGC analyses up, why get people to write them. And you know what? You can put them up. Any badgeholder can. But they fear retribution for breaking process, and expect someone else to deal with it, because that's how things work. There is no Be Bold on Smogon, so four pages of good quality analyses, representing the work of many writers and even more checkers amounted to.. almost nothing. At least compared to what it could have done.
Yes, giving all users access to the SCMS may not have solved it (though it may have caused more people to question why we aren't putting these up sooner, or more realistically they would've been written on-site eliminating the issue entirely), but it's got the same cause. The lack of appropriate, resilient, and adaptable content management system.
I'm sorry but this isn't true. UU analyses were initially put on hold because of the same problem but UU mods eventually started to upload them because it's better to have them ugly than not to have them at all. And fate said he asked Alaka and cosmicexplorer (the VGC leaders afaik) and it was their choice not to upload them. So this isn't a C&C problem (as you pointed out, Ubers and UU are doing this without tags).
I brought this up again with Alaka and cosmic (the convo Fate alluded to in Aldaron's log, sorry I don't have a log), but Alaka got a hold of Articuno64, and arti said that he was going to start working on tabs asap since he had been putting it off for the Wi-Fi battle finder and other things. So, it's coming up, patience is all that's required.
Like I said, me and a couple other of the C&C mods would have been willing to put the VGC analyses up, but it just looks awful onsite.
If tabs don't get implemented within the next month-ish (or whenever VGC 2012 starts), then we'll very more than likely be putting them up like we did UU/Ubers.
Like I said, me and a couple other of the C&C mods would have been willing to put the VGC analyses up, but it just looks awful onsite.
If tabs don't get implemented within the next month-ish (or whenever VGC 2012 starts), then we'll very more than likely be putting them up like we did UU/Ubers.
.
they weren't put up because the vgc mods themselves wanted tabs and were waiting. they could have been put up at anytime should they really have been desired to be put up.
stop perpetuating your propaganda please; plenty of people (hello, me) have been plenty bold and aggressive with doing what needs to be done. i get you don't like how smogon works and that's why you're pushing your PO mentality here, but seriously, stop sounding like a sour broken record.
Great Sage
Banned deucer.
The issue of VGC analyses is indeed one entirely of not having the proper technological support onsite. VGC analyses are so significantly different from the singles tiers that we feel that putting them up using tags is an unacceptable solution, and so VGC analyses going up onsite hinges on multitier tabs getting done, or something similar. Please do not feel that the VGC analyses have been "ignored" in any way; they would not be onsite given the present conditions even if we had a million competent volunteers (also keep in mind that no VGC mod has contacted me about a workaround solution anyway).
You realize that that is even worse right? Most people don't really have any idea how the system works so they feel as though every attempt to expedite it is futile. So if the two mods of a tier are negligent of it, obviously it will never advance, especially in VGC where most of the writers aren't exactly the most seasoned Smogoners out there. The cliquishness of this site seems to be impeding on its progress. Everyone seems to be too afraid to do anything at the risk of being "excommunicated".
Also, if conversations like these are what goes on in IS then, in all honesty, IS should definitely be made public, read only that is.
At this rate, VGC 2012 could very well not be put up, so should people just stop writing analyses? Should people just stop writing VGC analyses altogether? I mean it seems that in Smogon's eyes it's a "lesser tier" to begin with (apparently even more "lesser" than Little Cup)
EDIT: Just saying that if any of this seems misinformed and assumptive, it is the fault of the system withholding pretty much all information from it's public, even going so far as to make it confidential.
Also, if conversations like these are what goes on in IS then, in all honesty, IS should definitely be made public, read only that is.
At this rate, VGC 2012 could very well not be put up, so should people just stop writing analyses? Should people just stop writing VGC analyses altogether? I mean it seems that in Smogon's eyes it's a "lesser tier" to begin with (apparently even more "lesser" than Little Cup)
EDIT: Just saying that if any of this seems misinformed and assumptive, it is the fault of the system withholding pretty much all information from it's public, even going so far as to make it confidential.