Deoxys-S Tiering Discussion

[Eggbert]

eo-S on the other hand...well, he can carry SR, Spikes, Taunt, Magic Coat, Light Screen, Reflect, Superpower, HP Fire, Psycho Boost or Thunder(bolt).
Choose any 4 of those and you're on your way :)
Scizor gets you down? You use HP Fire.
T-tar trolls you? You use Superpower.
You want to use a cookie-cutter team of 5 sweepers? Screen dat shit and you still have the option of carrying an attack or two :D

Except you get 4 moveslots. It can't spike and sweep teams at the same time, nor can it do anything but dual screen. Once you find out what set it is, it isn't a big deal at all. Salamence can run 2 deadly sets, so can Jirachi or Reuniclus or Dragonite. It doesn't make them broken. Also, offensive teams just have Gengar as their spinblocker, meaning you can just kill deo off while it spikes and bring in starmie for the spin. Even if you have to sac it deo's entire role has been nullified. And for the last time, deo alone is not what makes the "cookie cutter sweepers" so powerful. Any screener can do that. Also for the millionith time AGAIN, randomly throwing five powerful sweepers on a team DOES NOT WORK. You actually have to team build, it is not as simple as you make it sound! !!!!!!!

One important thing that I forgot to mention is that if they invest in bulk rather than in speed like Deoxys, they must now avoid a 2HKO instead of an OHKO. This is massively important because Deoxys is so fast that all it needs to do is avoid an OHKO to get up both screens, while other Dual Screeners must avoid 2HKOs because they are outsped by moderately fast, extremely hard-hitting things, like a CB Haxorus for example.

The major thing that sets Deoxys apart from other Dual Screeners is that it can not only set up screens, but it can also lay down hazards to weaken counters, but also prevent your sweepers from getting statused or getting hazards layed down against you with Taunt.

You invest in defense rather than speed and still get 2HKOd by offensive toed in the rain. Then you also have no chance of winning the speed tie which means no hazards and no momentum. Even then it's not a big deal if a screener actually gets setup time! Uxie gets 2 screens up and it's broken? Speaking of Uxie (and Azelf too) they can set SR and stop foes from setting up on you. Latios can do all of that minus the SR and also hit hard with draco meteor and Espeon can prevent hazards while sub passing.

 

[complete legitimacy]

You invest in defense rather than speed and still get 2HKOd by offensive toed in the rain. Then you also have no chance of winning the speed tie which means no hazards and no momentum. Even then it's not a big deal if a screener actually gets setup time! Uxie gets 2 screens up and it's broken? Speaking of Uxie (and Azelf too) they can set SR and stop foes from setting up on you. Latios can do all of that minus the SR and also hit hard with draco meteor and Espeon can prevent hazards while sub passing.

Another point that has failed to be mentioned: the fact that slower leads can be TAUNTED before they can do anything. Then all of those screeners bar Espeon have literally no worth and are dead weight. The fact that no one Taunts Deoxys-S is because it's so fast that it CAN'T BE TAUNTED.

So, that narrows down the list of good dual screeners (not usable), to just two, Espeon and Deoxys-S. Espeon is a discussion for another day with Magic Bounce, and Deoxys-S is what we're currently discussing. Espeon is more prone to being killed on the physical side with its 65/60/95 defenses. Things like ScarfTar, CB Scizor, and CBNite are able to destroy it before it does anything. It can also lose to Specs Latios if it loses the speed tie, LO Alakazam, and maybe LO Starmie. It also lacks Taunt, so it becomes set-up fodder, and lacks hazards to turn 2HKOs into OHKOs.

You mentioned in one of your earlier posts that anything with Dual Screens should be banned because it can reliably set up both. The truth is, only Deoxys can. Not only that, it can also lay down hazards to turn 2HKOs inot OHKOs, and has Taunt to stop setup, hazards, and statuses. Every other Dual Screener is either Taunted or dies before it can do anything.

You may now be thinking that Deoxys is easily defeated by Prankster users, such as Tornadus or Sableye. A new tool being utilized by Deoxys to counter this is Magic Coat. This move negates whatever attempt Prankster Pokemon make to stop it with its +4 priority. Taunts are bounced back, and Deoxys is even more likely to get both screens or that extra hazard in.

 

[Spork]

Taunting is unfortunately a mindgame in which Deoxys almost always has the advantage. Whimsicott is the only guy that can out-taunt it, and he's certainly a decent choice for any team with serious Deo trouble.

Being unpredictable doesn't actually make Deoxys broken, and there's only one specific circumstance, covering all pokemon in the game, in which unpredictability is actually a contributor towards brokenness. The set Deoxys runs isvery easy to predict with the context of team preview.

 

[Eggbert]

Another point that has failed to be mentioned: the fact that slower leads can be TAUNTED before they can do anything. Then all of those screeners bar Espeon have literally no worth and are dead weight. The fact that no one Taunts Deoxys-S is because it's so fast that it CAN'T BE TAUNTED.

So, that narrows down the list of good dual screeners (not usable), to just two, Espeon and Deoxys-S. Espeon is a discussion for another day with Magic Bounce, and Deoxys-S is what we're currently discussing. Espeon is more prone to being killed on the physical side with its 65/60/95 defenses. Things like ScarfTar, CB Scizor, and CBNite are able to destroy it before it does anything. It can also lose to Specs Latios if it loses the speed tie, LO Alakazam, and maybe LO Starmie. It also lacks Taunt, so it becomes set-up fodder, and lacks hazards to turn 2HKOs into OHKOs.

You mentioned in one of your earlier posts that anything with Dual Screens should be banned because it can reliably set up both. The truth is, only Deoxys can. Not only that, it can also lay down hazards to turn 2HKOs inot OHKOs, and has Taunt to stop setup, hazards, and statuses. Every other Dual Screener is either Taunted or dies before it can do anything.

You may now be thinking that Deoxys is easily defeated by Prankster users, such as Tornadus or Sableye. A new tool being utilized by Deoxys to counter this is Magic Coat. This move negates whatever attempt Prankster Pokemon make to stop it with its +4 priority. Taunts are bounced back, and Deoxys is even more likely to get both screens or that extra hazard in.

This is pretty silly. The only common fast taunter is Deoxys-s itself...if you were to ban it then Azelf and Uxie would easily be able to screen. They set up on most of the common leads; Politoed, Ferrothorn, Rotom, non-scarf Tar, Heatran. Azelf and Uxie are much faster than the average support mons. Deoxys itself can't even set up screens reliably! It rarely gets both screens are SR. Unless you are trying to take it out by scalding it, it won't get full setup.

Most of this is just theory. Go and use deoxys-s as I have for months. It's fairly easy to get screens up without Deoxys, even if deo is the best at it. We can't seriously ban this thing because it can set up dual screens.

 

[alexwolf]

This is pretty silly. The only common fast taunter is Deoxys-s itself...if you were to ban it then Azelf and Uxie would easily be able to screen. They set up on most of the common leads; Politoed, Ferrothorn, Rotom, non-scarf Tar, Heatran. Azelf and Uxie are much faster than the average support mons. Deoxys itself can't even set up screens reliably! It rarely gets both screens are SR. Unless you are trying to take it out by scalding it, it won't get full setup.

Most of this is just theory. Go and use deoxys-s as I have for months. It's fairly easy to get screens up without Deoxys, even if deo is the best at it. We can't seriously ban this thing because it can set up dual screens.

Except that Azelf has a 33% chance to get ohkoed from CBTar's Crunch after SS damage BEHIND Reflect while Deoxys-S only has 2,56% in the same scenario.Deoxys-S is 4% bulkier than Azelf behind screens.
Also Azelf can be killed by things like Scarftar and Scarfhaxorus.
Uxie while relatively fast still can be taunted by things like Haxorus or can be setup on by any stat uper or hazard layer.

Come on don't even compare Deoxys-S as as DS set uper to other mons.Everyone knows that he is the best in the job and zero pokes come close to doing what he does.
If you lack either Taunt or the huge speed that Deoxys-S has you risk being setup on or being killed by scarfers.
Finally Deoxys-S has the option of laying down both Spikes and SR whcih both of the other screeners can't do.

I am not arguing whether or not he is broken right now,but it is crystal clear that he is in another league from any screener out there.

Other things can setup screens true.But they can't guarantee to have them up before they get killed or being setup on like Deoxys-S.
Saying that if we ban Deoxys-S other screeners will take it's place is like saying that if we ban a good sweeper other will take its place.
Of 'course they will but guess what,they will be inferior most of the time to the one who got banned.

No one is arguing that Dual Screens as a strategy is broken,the argument is that Deoxys-S abuses this strategy in combination with other factors(speed,attacks,etc)to an extend that it is considered broken under the support characteristics by many!

 

[Ningildo]

No one is arguing that Dual Screens as a strategy is broken,the argument is that Deoxys-S abuses this strategy in combination with other factors(speed,attacks,etc)to an extend that it is considered broken under the support characteristics by many!

Is that valid?
It's been thrown around since the first page, yet no one has confirmed it to be the same as last gen.
And has anyone considered using Jirachi to Body Slam it?
Then use a set up sweeper of your choice or anything for that matter.

 

[alexwolf]

Is that valid?
It's been thrown around since the first page, yet no one has confirmed it to be the same as last gen.
And has anyone considered using Jirachi to Body Slam it?
Then use a set up sweeper of your choice or anything for that matter.

I think that it still holds true until stated otherwise.

And yes Jirachi is an option although unreliable because 40% of the time Deoxys-S will do whatever he wants until you paralyze him.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Except you get 4 moveslots. It can't spike and sweep teams at the same time, nor can it do anything but dual screen. Once you find out what set it is, it isn't a big deal at all. Salamence can run 2 deadly sets, so can Jirachi or Reuniclus or Dragonite. It doesn't make them broken. Also, offensive teams just have Gengar as their spinblocker, meaning you can just kill deo off while it spikes and bring in starmie for the spin. Even if you have to sac it deo's entire role has been nullified. And for the last time, deo alone is not what makes the "cookie cutter sweepers" so powerful. Any screener can do that. Also for the millionith time AGAIN, randomly throwing five powerful sweepers on a team DOES NOT WORK. You actually have to team build, it is not as simple as you make it sound! !!!!!!!

When did I say any of these? Did I say Deo-S could run everything at once? Of course not. Was I assuming it? No.
I even said "Choose 4 moves".

I don't care about Gengar. Spinning is still difficult.
Offensive teams just have constant pressure on you, leaving no time to spin, which wouldn't be so bad if they weren't behind screens nearly every single time you face them and more stallish teams has the FerroCent core which makes spinning rather pointless when Jellicent keeps blocking the spins and Ferrothorn just keeps placing MORE hazards.

For the fucking millionth time, what DOES make the cookie cutter sweepers so powerful? Oh wait, they already are pretty powerful, but Deo-S just makes them a lot harder to take down. You'll lose quite a bit of your team before you take down their first sweeper.

For the fucking billionth time, NO other screener can do the same as Deo-S as NO other screener fits so perfectly for these teams and NO other screener can multi-task as much as Deo-S. Deoxys can easily run Light Screen/Reflect/Taunt/*insert any attack of YOUR choice*. Sending in one of his few "counters" is like rolling the dice and hoping your opponent isn't carrying the correct coverage move and if he doesn't run ANY attacks...what are you going to do anyway? Since he has no attacks, he can just run max HP...actually, he only needs a couple of Attack EVs to OHKO T-tar so the rest can go into HP.
Even Scizor only has a very small chance to 2HKO it after Screens and MixNite, as shown, is just plain out-classed by MixMence unless you use it in the Rain...which means if you lead with...Thunder and Hurricane become rather unreliable so half your move set sucks ass.

And for the fucking trillionth time, where...oh where did I EVER say you could just slap on ANY 5 sweepers on a team? They obviously need to have SOME sort of synergy, but who cares when all I need at the very least, is two of these: Dnite/Volcarona/Terrakion/Haxorus/Salamence/Lucario/Cloyster/etc.

 

[Eggbert]

When did I say any of these? Did I say Deo-S could run everything at once? Of course not. Was I assuming it? No.
I even said "Choose 4 moves".

I don't care about Gengar. Spinning is still difficult.
Offensive teams just have constant pressure on you, leaving no time to spin, which wouldn't be so bad if they weren't behind screens nearly every single time you face them and more stallish teams has the FerroCent core which makes spinning rather pointless when Jellicent keeps blocking the spins and Ferrothorn just keeps placing MORE hazards.

For the fucking millionth time, what DOES make the cookie cutter sweepers so powerful? Oh wait, they already are pretty powerful, but Deo-S just makes them a lot harder to take down. You'll lose quite a bit of your team before you take down their first sweeper.

For the fucking billionth time, NO other screener can do the same as Deo-S as NO other screener fits so perfectly for these teams and NO other screener can multi-task as much as Deo-S. Deoxys can easily run Light Screen/Reflect/Taunt/*insert any attack of YOUR choice*. Sending in one of his few "counters" is like rolling the dice and hoping your opponent isn't carrying the correct coverage move and if he doesn't run ANY attacks...what are you going to do anyway? Since he has no attacks, he can just run max HP...actually, he only needs a couple of Attack EVs to OHKO T-tar so the rest can go into HP.
Even Scizor only has a very small chance to 2HKO it after Screens and MixNite, as shown, is just plain out-classed by MixMence unless you use it in the Rain...which means if you lead with...Thunder and Hurricane become rather unreliable so half your move set sucks ass.

And for the fucking trillionth time, where...oh where did I EVER say you could just slap on ANY 5 sweepers on a team? They obviously need to have SOME sort of synergy, but who cares when all I need at the very least, is two of these: Dnite/Volcarona/Terrakion/Haxorus/Salamence/Lucario/Cloyster/etc.
__________________

You need to calm down. Not only are you being rude, you are blatantly wrong. Since it doesn't have the capability to carry all of those moves, you only need to be prepared for the different sets as a whole, not to mention that they have similar ways of being stopped. IE something like CB dragonite can 2hko them all and stop them from getting up hazards and screens.

Not really. Most of the spinners can even spin against Deo itself. Also you literally just contradicted yourself. Deo can't screen and set up that many hazards. It doesn't have the time. Who runs ferrothorn, jellicent, and deoxys on the same team? Also Deo gets 2 hazards up and dies. How does that make it uber? Using a team slot to get 2 hazards?

Dual screens makes them harder to take down. Not just Deo. There are other pokemon that learn it. No, Deo can't multi task. On the DS set, it runs Screens, Taunt, SR. Nothing else. If it sets up screens it won't be directly KOing anything. It really doesn't do it all at once. Wow, dual screens is powerful. People have caught on....prepare for offensive teams and stop bitching already.

Lol. If you think it's that easy you have no idea what you are doing. If you don't have everything covered (rain, sun, stall, sand, offense, scarfs, sweepers) you will fail. "some" synergy, what a joke. I think i've said that in this thread a few times now.

I'm literally just repeating myself. I think giving people a thread like this to bandwagon and complain is not really helpful for the tiering process. It makes things sound so much worse than they actually are. tdlr:
- It does its job well, but it can't do it all.
- There are other screeners. Yes dual screens is powerful, but it's not deoxys. Adapt to it, carries the appropriate defenses, and stop bitching

What hyperbole?

 

[Tobes]

Less hyperbole from both sides please.

And as a warning I'm going to start infracting posts that use personal attacks or get uncivil from here on out.

 

[alexwolf]

You need to calm down. Not only are you being rude, you are blatantly wrong. Since it doesn't have the capability to carry all of those moves, you only need to be prepared for the different sets as a whole, not to mention that they have similar ways of being stopped. IE something like CB dragonite can 2hko them all and stop them from getting up hazards and screens.

Not really. Most of the spinners can even spin against Deo itself. Also you literally just contradicted yourself. Deo can't screen and set up that many hazards. It doesn't have the time. Who runs ferrothorn, jellicent, and deoxys on the same team? Also Deo gets 2 hazards up and dies. How does that make it uber? Using a team slot to get 2 hazards?

Dual screens makes them harder to take down. Not just Deo. There are other pokemon that learn it. No, Deo can't multi task. On the DS set, it runs Screens, Taunt, SR. Nothing else. If it sets up screens it won't be directly KOing anything. It really doesn't do it all at once. Wow, dual screens is powerful. People have caught on....prepare for offensive teams and stop bitching already.

Lol. If you think it's that easy you have no idea what you are doing. If you don't have everything covered (rain, sun, stall, sand, offense, scarfs, sweepers) you will fail. "some" synergy, what a joke. I think i've said that in this thread a few times now.

I'm literally just repeating myself. I think giving people a thread like this to bandwagon and complain is not really helpful for the tiering process. It makes things sound so much worse than they actually are. tdlr:
- It does its job well, but it can't do it all.
- There are other screeners. Yes dual screens is powerful, but it's not deoxys. Adapt to it, carries the appropriate defenses, and stop bitching

First of all adapt to it and carry the appropriate defenses can be said for everything.If this was the case then we wouldn't have any ubers.
Juts because you don't agree with the pro-ban side doesn't mean that you can sit there and say "just adapt to it",'cause i can say the same for every poke out there.

Finally as said a million times dual screening is where it is as of now 'cause of Deoxys-S.
Without him hyper offense wouldn't be so blatantly effective and easy to use(and overpowered imo).
As said a million times EVERY other screener out there is in a different league from Deoxys-S.
You can't just assume "if Deoxys-S goes something else will easily replace him".
He is not easily replaceable because he is unique at what he does!
Stop implying that Hyper Offensive teams won't be badly hurt from the absence of Deoxys-S and will just find another screener.
Deoxys-S is not just a screener...

 

[melvni]

Is that valid?
It's been thrown around since the first page, yet no one has confirmed it to be the same as last gen.
And has anyone considered using Jirachi to Body Slam it?
Then use a set up sweeper of your choice or anything for that matter.

Unlike the 4th generation suspect voting process, the characteristics outlined in the Portrait of an Uber are not required for justifying a Pokemon's tiering. Instead, we encourage you all to justify your nomination with whatever reasoning led you to your opinion. Please keep in mind the definitions listed in DougJustDoug's Characteristics of a Desirable Pokemon Metagame thread when posting your opinions, as if you use a word from there, that is how we will interpret it. Also, note that DougJustDoug's thread, although very detailed, probably does not cover every characteristic of our metagame, so don't feel limited to just the ones he listed when justifying your nomination. That thread is just a good starting point :)

From what I can tell, this seems to say that phrasing your post with language from Portrait of an Uber is no longer required, but not that one can no longer do so. Also, that one should at least take into account DougJustDoug's Thread when formulating opinions.

 

[Eggbert]

First of all adapt to it and carry the appropriate defenses can be said for everything.If this was the case then we wouldn't have any ubers.
Juts because you don't agree with the pro-ban side doesn't mean that you can sit there and say "just adapt to it",'cause i can say the same for every poke out there.

Finally as said a million times dual screening is where it is as of now 'cause of Deoxys-S.
Without him hyper offense wouldn't be so blatantly effective and easy to use(and overpowered imo).
As said a million times EVERY other screener out there is in a different league from Deoxys-S.
You can't just assume "if Deoxys-S goes something else will easily replace him".
He is not easily replaceable because he is unique at what he does!
Stop implying that Hyper Offensive teams won't be badly hurt from the absence of Deoxys-S and will just find another screener.
Deoxys-S is not just a screener...

Adapt to garchomp, stop sand veil from making every attack miss. Adapt to deoxys, carry things that can stop it from setting up hazards all over the place or a spinner or a scarfer that can revenge sweepers.

It's not true. Go and use hyper offense, it isn't easy. He doesn't single handedly make hyper offense uber! Look at where the arguements are going to. I'm the one using hyperbole? Go and test it please. I doubt many have.

 

[alexwolf]

Adapt to garchomp, stop sand veil from making every attack miss. Adapt to deoxys, carry things that can stop it from setting up hazards all over the place or a spinner or a scarfer that can revenge sweepers.

It's not true. Go and use hyper offense, it isn't easy. He doesn't single handedly make hyper offense uber! Look at where the arguements are going to. I'm the one using hyperbole? Go and test it please. I doubt many have.

First fo all stopping Garchomp and Deoxys-S is not so easy as you make it seem but let's not discuss this now.It would take an entire paragraph to ewxplain how to stop those 2.
But the same way you say do this and this and this to adapt to Deoxys-S or Garchomp i can say the same to you about a lot of ubers.
Just carry their appropriate counters and checks and you will be fine.Adapt!
I don't support this kind of argument i am just using it against you to see how faulty it is...

Also i didn't mean easy the way you got it.Easy is a relative term.When it comes for building a good team nothing is easy.But if you look all the RMTs right now in the subforum you will see which kind of teams are most popular and most easy to use.
Easy in comparison with the other kind of teams not easy in general.
And i never said that Deoxys-S makes HO Uber.I just said that he is very good at what he does and that he is the best DS user and hazard layer for offenisve teams out there.
Is any of the things that i claim wrong or absurd?

 

[Joeyboy]

Ok well it seems that the "Ubers" crew's main argument is now that Deoxys' DS support is the main culprit for banning him. But I must reiterate(and mirror Eggbert's posts), his DS screen is not broken its definitely great but its not broken by any stretch. Espeon does what he does(arguably better on some teams) and others do it nearly as well. Espeon outspeeds a good deal of the meta and has Magic Bounce. Many people keep stating that Deoxys' speed is the factor(he can taunt so quickly) but Espeon is totally invulnerable to Taunt. Worried that Dragonite will gunna set up on you? Run Hidden Power Ice; Volc gunna set up on you, run Hidden Power Rock.

This may seem a rather odd post(will get flamed for listing Espeon's Hidden Powers to stop people setting up) but the point is that is what the "ubers" crew is doing. Their point is that Deoxys has a way past most of his own checks; the unfortunate thing is that he only has 4 moveslots; he can't always deal with every check(what Eggbert's been saying).

It is my belief that the "ubers" side needs a new point of argument; but that is merely my opinion. Loads of pokemon have ways past things that could counter them, but they won't always be running the right moves for every situation.

 

[Smith]

Okay I'm pro-uber, but screens are definitely not what breaks this guy. If I were to use a hyper offense team with a screener, just like the above post says, I'd pick Espeon any day of the week- say what you will SOMALIA, his team was good. That said, are screens even that broken? I've always found them massively easy to play around, especially since screens deoxys can do literally no harm to any mon in front of him. I won't pretend that I've been following this thread very closely, but if you guys want to prove Deoxys-s is uber, I'd focus more on his spikes set than his screens set.

 

[AccidentalGreed]

I agree with what Smith says. So one reason that Deoxys-S is broken because it sets up screens soo much faster than the other fast Psychic-types available in the game? Nope. It's a great support set that Deoxys-S can use effectively as a result of a fast base speed and decent defenses. Really there's nothin more to add to that, except we should focus on its role as a hazard setter. I'm so far comparing Deoxys-S to other support/offensively-built Pokemon. If anything, Deoxys-S is a more of a neutral presence.

 

[Xephyr]

I am unable to play pokemon at all, but based on my past experiences, Deoxys-S is more extremely effective than outright broken. The thing is, however is that the things it is good at are also borderline broken within themselves. Pretty much guaranteed spikes is extremely powerful in all scenarios. However, when all things are said and done, teams can be built around it, let it be through rapid spin, choosing pokemon that can deal with hazards, Magic Bounce etc. Dual Screens, on the other hand is where I think more of the problem lies, as since Excadrill was banned the tier has delved deeper into Pokemon's stallish roots based on what I've heard. Put on top of this the fact that Deo has reasonable defenses for its stats and also has extremely good coverage that covers all of its checks and counters and you have an extremely potent threat. I'm not going to say that Deoxys seems uber to me because I obviously have no grounds for saying that, but Deoxys is pretty uber.

The statement about the metagame being more stall is just totally wrong. After Excadrill got banned, hyper offense just broke out EVERYWHERE, and that's because Excadrill was the primary thing that kept hyper offense easily in check, being able to revenge kill pretty much any set-up sweeper in the middle of a sweep with ease.

 

[tehy]

True enoug, but the main reason i believe that exca's ban fueled Ho was for one reason.

I call this the "mega super sweeper theorem."
It basically states that a large portion of the metagame will gravitate towards the most powerful sweepers.
Since exca(And thundurus) were banned, the next super sweepers were d-nite and volc, and of course deoxys-s suddenly became much more useful.

 

[Raikaria]

True enoug, but the main reason i believe that exca's ban fueled Ho was for one reason.

I call this the "mega super sweeper theorem."
It basically states that a large portion of the metagame will gravitate towards the most powerful sweepers.
Since exca(And thundurus) were banned, the next super sweepers were d-nite and volc, and of course deoxys-s suddenly became much more useful.

Exca's ban also fueled HO because Excadrill single-handedly made many HO staples, such as Scarfers, unviable.

Thunderus could have stayed in OU, and we'd still be seeing a HO metagame, even with Priority T-Wave being thrown about.

The problem is, in a HO metagame, where high powered sweepers are dukeing it out, relying mostly on resistances [Except in Dragonite's case] to get in and set up, Screens are INVALUABLE. And Deo-S basically can set at least one of them up, guarenteed, at the start of a battle. Especially as it can set up whichever screen stops your foe's check, due to team preveiw.

Ie: You see someone who's team is Volcarona weak, but they have a Gyarados. You set up Reflect. All of a sudden, Gyarados can't come in and beat Volcarona so easily. Either Volcarona runs through half the other team while Reflect is up, then it gets KO'ed by Gyarados, only for a different teammember to clean-up, or Volcarona sets up and runs through the whole team because it's too late for Gyarados to do squat.

Then you see someone who's, say, Dragonite weak, but is packing Latios. So you put up Light Screen at the start of the match. You get the picture.

Also, Deo-S can Screen and set up one hazard, if it chooses to go fully Suicide/Suppport. It's not like you can Taunt Deo-S unless you're Whimsicott... and it's not like Whimsi can do much to Deo-S anyway.

---

Please note, that Deo-S can also do a lot more than Screen. There's the hazard based sets, the Stallbreakers [Recover/Taunt and 2 Attacks screws Stall over so badly it's not funny], and Cleaners [LO + 3 or 4 Attacks]. All of which are basically unstoppable at whatever their set is designed to do. Deo-S is basically a Jack of Many Trades... and pretty masterful at all of them! About the only things it can't do is outright sweep, and obviously, Stall.

No single set is the problem. If we were banning Deo-S for hazards, we'd be banning Ferrothorn and Forretress, beause they can set them up as well, if not better, over the course of the game. If we were banning purely for screens, we'd be seeing Espeon, Azelf, and possibly Bronzong and Renkulus go. If we were banning for being a cleaner, Starmie.

But it's not one set. It's the culmination of all of them, like Gen 4 Mence. If you get the set wrong, you are going to be at a massive disadvantage through the remainder of the game.

 

[complete legitimacy]

Although I we haven't yet reached an agreemet on the Dual Screens set, I'm willing to move on to the hazards set. Deoxys is probably the best hazard setter as well. Used as a lead, it is guaranteed Stealth Rock and maybe one layer of Spikes. As shown in Mostwanted's Apocalypse, it doesn't even have to invest in speed, so it can invest in bulk.

Like I said before, Magic Coat is a HUGE issue. It's a slap in the face to Prankster users, with its +4 priority. This shuts down opoosing Deoxys, and you've gained the advantage because you're gonna get another layer of Spikes down.

It can also carry a coverage move at the same time. People are saying now that it's easy to spin on Deoxys. Want to bring in your Starmie? You just got Tbolted. How about Forretress? HP Fire does the job there. Tentacruel? Psycho Boost. This set is more where the coverage move it carries can be a problem. It can literally go with whatever it wants, even two or sometimes three moves. The fact that you bring in your spinner, try to spin, and get destroyed by a coverage move attests to this. Then Deoxys gets down another layer of Spikes.

This opens up holes in opposing cores. Blissey might not be able to take many more of those Draco Meteors if it loses 37.5% every time in switches in. Ferrothorn can't lay any hazards of its own whenever it's forced out, and Jellicent has nothing to spinblock. CeleTran is broken down with little effort. What does it matter if they cover each other's weaknesses if they can only take one hit before switching out and losing another 37.5% on their way in? Deoxys is also the best hazard setter in the game for the fact that it can spin-block itself.

 

[waterwarrior]

It can also carry a coverage move at the same time. People are saying now that it's easy to spin on Deoxys. Want to bring in your Starmie? You just got Tbolted. How about Forretress? HP Fire does the job there. Tentacruel? Psycho Boost. This set is more where the coverage move it carries can be a problem. It can literally go with whatever it wants, even two or sometimes three moves. The fact that you bring in your spinner, try to spin, and get destroyed by a coverage move attests to this. Then Deoxys gets down another layer of Spikes.

Oh, so your moveset is Psycho Boost/ Tbolt/ HP Fire/ Spikes/ SR/ Taunt?

Yes, it CAN attack the common spinners, but the true fact of the matter is, as was brought up before. You have four moveslots. You're not a Thundurus or a Reshiram, you can't cover everything with one set.

EDIT: And one final note on the DS, the screens don't make the opponent's sweepers immortal. If you're getting swept by a Dragonite or a Haxorus when they have 1 DD (which is what they'll get. maybe they'll get 2), change your team.

 

[Ningildo]

Although I we haven't yet reached an agreemet on the Dual Screens set, I'm willing to move on to the hazards set. Deoxys is probably the best hazard setter as well. Used as a lead, it is guaranteed Stealth Rock and maybe one layer of Spikes. As shown in Mostwanted's Apocalypse, it doesn't even have to invest in speed, so it can invest in bulk.

Like I said before, Magic Coat is a HUGE issue. It's a slap in the face to Prankster users, with its +4 priority. This shuts down opoosing Deoxys, and you've gained the advantage because you're gonna get another layer of Spikes down.

It can also carry a coverage move at the same time. People are saying now that it's easy to spin on Deoxys. Want to bring in your Starmie? You just got Tbolted. How about Forretress? HP Fire does the job there. Tentacruel? Psycho Boost. This set is more where the coverage move it carries can be a problem. It can literally go with whatever it wants, even two or sometimes three moves. The fact that you bring in your spinner, try to spin, and get destroyed by a coverage move attests to this. Then Deoxys gets down another layer of Spikes.

This opens up holes in opposing cores. Blissey might not be able to take many more of those Draco Meteors if it loses 37.5% every time in switches in. Ferrothorn can't lay any hazards of its own whenever it's forced out, and Jellicent has nothing to spinblock. CeleTran is broken down with little effort. What does it matter if they cover each other's weaknesses if they can only take one hit before switching out and losing another 37.5% on their way in? Deoxys is also the best hazard setter in the game for the fact that it can spin-block itself.

Yes, sure.
I did some calcs and guess what?
Deoxys-S has NO chance to OHKO Starmie and Specially Defensive Forretress when they are at full health without a LO. Heck, it doesn't even bring Forry to Sturdy.
Tentacruel is the only exception, with a whopping chance of 17.85% of OHKO'ing, assuming Max HP and no Sp Def EV's.
This all is done with a Deoxys-S with a neutral nature and Max Sp Atk EV's and no LO. And guess what?
If you go with LO, you're not running the hazards set anymore.
And with no bulk, you'll be crushed easily.
With no Speed, Scarfers who have 265 Speed before factoring the Scarf will outspeed.
And on the attacking move thing, if you go with one attacking move, you still can choose:
SR, Spikes, Taunt/Magic Coat.
With two attacking moves:
SR/Spikes, Taunt/Magic Coat.
With three attacking moves:
SR/Spikes/Taunt/Magic Coat.

Please explain how you are:
Going to take out Spinners (Max investment in a offense + a attacking move, possibly two or more)
Setting up hazards at a great speed before anyone else while preventing them from doing the same (Max investment in Speed + Taunt/Magic Coat)
Tanking hits with "ease" (Max investment in HP)

All at the same time.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Does it matter Forry takes 70-81%? No move outside of Mold Breaker OHKOs it anyway, and it's slower than Deo-S.

And about Deo-S not being as versatile as they say, while I don't fully agree with their argument, complete legitimacy clearly mentioned mostwanted's Apocalypse team, which had a 4 Speed Deo-S with Magic Coat to shit on opposing Taunt/hazard setters faster than it. That set still doesn't OHKO every spinner (lol how would it anyway), but the gimmick of Rocky Helmet, coupled with the ease of a "bulky" Deoxys in setting up hazards again and again, and the offensive pressure HO puts against Starmie (lolfrail) and Forry (lolbait) means it actually can do all those three things at once.

 

[complete legitimacy]

Oh, so your moveset is Psycho Boost/ Tbolt/ HP Fire/ Spikes/ SR/ Taunt?

Yes, it CAN attack the common spinners, but the true fact of the matter is, as was brought up before. You have four moveslots. You're not a Thundurus or a Reshiram, you can't cover everything with one set.

EDIT: And one final note on the DS, the screens don't make the opponent's sweepers immortal. If you're getting swept by a Dragonite or a Haxorus when they have 1 DD (which is what they'll get. maybe they'll get 2), change your team.

Applying that same logic, you're running all three Spinners in OU? Obviously, you change your moveset to what you want to counter. While I do admit that Deoxys suffers from four-moveslot syndrome, it doesn't need to specifically focus on one role. It can set hazards without giving up its ability to revenge kill later in the game. The fact of the matter is, once hazards + Expert Belt becomes popular, no spinner is gonna wanna come in on Deoxys. It's not what it will do that's the issue, it's what it can do.

Yes, sure.
I did some calcs and guess what?
Deoxys-S has NO chance to OHKO Starmie and Specially Defensive Forretress when they are at full health without a LO. Heck, it doesn't even bring Forry to Sturdy.
Tentacruel is the only exception, with a whopping chance of 17.85% of OHKO'ing, assuming Max HP and no Sp Def EV's.
This all is done with a Deoxys-S with a neutral nature and Max Sp Atk EV's and no LO. And guess what?
If you go with LO, you're not running the hazards set anymore.
And with no bulk, you'll be crushed easily.
With no Speed, Scarfers who have 265 Speed before factoring the Scarf will outspeed.
And on the attacking move thing, if you go with one attacking move, you still can choose:
SR, Spikes, Taunt/Magic Coat.
With two attacking moves:
SR/Spikes, Taunt/Magic Coat.
With three attacking moves:
SR/Spikes/Taunt/Magic Coat.

Please explain how you are:
Going to take out Spinners (Max investment in a offense + a attacking move, possibly two or more)
Setting up hazards at a great speed before anyone else while preventing them from doing the same (Max investment in Speed + Taunt/Magic Coat)
Tanking hits with "ease" (Max investment in HP)

All at the same time.

While you can't do it all at the same time, you don't necessarily need to. People knowing what it will do and forgetting what it can do is what screws them over to Deoxys. All you need is max investment in Sp. Atk, enough speed to outspeed Scarf Landorus, and you can do whatever you want with the rest. With an Expert Belt, you can bluff a lead set so good it's not even funny.

The problem with those calculations, although I'm sure they are correct, is that you fail to take into account Expert Belt and entry hazard damage, which Deoxys is certain to get up. Forretress gets its Sturdy broken switching in, thinking it's a standard lead set. It does to spin, then gets nailed by an Expert Belt HP Fire. Then your opponent thinks it's a standard lead set with one attacking move. You bring in something to kill it before it gets too many hazards up. It then switches out, and terrorizes your team for the rest of the match.