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Cresselia suspect discussion (See post #45)
- Thread starter Nails
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I don't think that Cresselia deserves to be quickbanned.
In OU crazy monsters like Shaymin and Darkrai were tested, which imo were much more broken in OU than Cresselia is in RU.
There are many pokes that are good overall and can check/counter Cresselia.Ok not many,but not very few also.
There is Drapion which will beat Cress even if it is the last poke due to Crunch's secondary effect and can phaze her out and also sets up hazards. Aggron, as listed again, 2hkoes i think and doesn't care for most of her attacks. Spiritomb is also a very nice check which can setup alongside her,beating her eventually. Any offensive Gallade can 2hko Cress with Nigh Slash and eats little from Cress due to excellent special bulk (except if it carries Psyshock).Durant also 2hkoes and fears takes little from even with shitty special bulk because it resists every move that Cressy carries bar HP Fight which is just weak and unstabbed. There are many viable phazers like Munchlax,Drapion,Mandibuzz and Steelix that stop Cresselia and if it is the last poke there some pokes that can 2hko her or Perish Song users like Murkrow.
Anwyay Cresselia will propably be found broken but it deserves a test,she is not so broken imo...
In OU crazy monsters like Shaymin and Darkrai were tested, which imo were much more broken in OU than Cresselia is in RU.
There are many pokes that are good overall and can check/counter Cresselia.Ok not many,but not very few also.
There is Drapion which will beat Cress even if it is the last poke due to Crunch's secondary effect and can phaze her out and also sets up hazards. Aggron, as listed again, 2hkoes i think and doesn't care for most of her attacks. Spiritomb is also a very nice check which can setup alongside her,beating her eventually. Any offensive Gallade can 2hko Cress with Nigh Slash and eats little from Cress due to excellent special bulk (except if it carries Psyshock).Durant also 2hkoes and fears takes little from even with shitty special bulk because it resists every move that Cressy carries bar HP Fight which is just weak and unstabbed. There are many viable phazers like Munchlax,Drapion,Mandibuzz and Steelix that stop Cresselia and if it is the last poke there some pokes that can 2hko her or Perish Song users like Murkrow.
Anwyay Cresselia will propably be found broken but it deserves a test,she is not so broken imo...
Lets see, the first time Cresselia was around, it was already incredibly difficult to contend with and consistently found itself within the top 5 of usage stats in spite of Yanmega's / Venomoth's presence. I don't think anyone can disagree that Yanmega and Venomoth were holding Cresselia back, but now, both are gone. Furthermore, Krookodile has recently jumped up to UU, so another potential method for dealing with Cresselia, gone. While Spiritomb did come down alongside Cresselia, it doesn't take away from the fact that some of the best Cresselia checks are gone and Cresselia is free to roam the tier pretty much uncontested. And when I say uncontested, I mean uncontested, for reference, here are some calcs.
There you have it folks, of all the common powerful Pokemon in RU who carry STAB super effective moves, only Scyther and Scolipede can OHKO, and that's after a +2 boost. In other words, Cresselia is a whore, quickban without a doubt.
Max Attack Adamant Life Orb Sharpedo Crunch vs 252 / 252 Bold Cresselia: 50.5% - 59.9%
Max Attack Adamant Choice Band Spiritomb Sucker Punch vs 252 / 252 Bold Cresselia: 49.1% - 58.1%
Max Attack Jolly +1 Life Orb Crawdaunt Crunch vs 252 / 252 Bold Cresselia: 68.9% - 81.1%
Max Attack Jolly +2 Life Orb Drapion Crunch vs 252 / 252 Bold Cresselia: 75.7% - 89.2%
Max Attack Adamant Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs 252 / 252 Bold Cresselia: 52.7% - 62.2%
Max Attack Jolly +2 Life Orb Scolipede Megahorn vs 252 / 252 Bold Cresselia: 113.5% - 133.8%
Max Attack Jolly +2 Life Orb Scyther Bug Bite vs 252 / 252 Bold Cresselia: 97.3% - 114.9%
Max Special Attack Timid Choice Specs Galvantula Bug Buzz vs 252 / 4 Bold Cresselia: 64.9% - 76.1%
Max Special Attack Timid Life Orb Accelgor Bug Buzz vs 252 / 4 Bold Cresselia: 57.2% - 68%
Max Attack Adamant Choice Band Spiritomb Sucker Punch vs 252 / 252 Bold Cresselia: 49.1% - 58.1%
Max Attack Jolly +1 Life Orb Crawdaunt Crunch vs 252 / 252 Bold Cresselia: 68.9% - 81.1%
Max Attack Jolly +2 Life Orb Drapion Crunch vs 252 / 252 Bold Cresselia: 75.7% - 89.2%
Max Attack Adamant Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs 252 / 252 Bold Cresselia: 52.7% - 62.2%
Max Attack Jolly +2 Life Orb Scolipede Megahorn vs 252 / 252 Bold Cresselia: 113.5% - 133.8%
Max Attack Jolly +2 Life Orb Scyther Bug Bite vs 252 / 252 Bold Cresselia: 97.3% - 114.9%
Max Special Attack Timid Choice Specs Galvantula Bug Buzz vs 252 / 4 Bold Cresselia: 64.9% - 76.1%
Max Special Attack Timid Life Orb Accelgor Bug Buzz vs 252 / 4 Bold Cresselia: 57.2% - 68%
There you have it folks, of all the common powerful Pokemon in RU who carry STAB super effective moves, only Scyther and Scolipede can OHKO, and that's after a +2 boost. In other words, Cresselia is a whore, quickban without a doubt.
So far I'm surprisingly unimpressed with Cressy. I tried SubCM yesterday and it wasn't really as good as I expected. There are a lot of things that can break those Subs, although that might partly be because I was running a fast spread to avoid status. Right now I'm trying Psychic/Ice Beam/Toxic/Moonlight on a stall team, and it's good, but it's not even the best mon on the team. And I have yet to lose a match because of an opponent's Cressy.
CM sets have more bulk than Uxie, but does that actually lead to significant changes in what can/cannot break its Subs? Calcs from someone less lazy than me would be cool. Defensive sets also have more bulk, but Cressy lacks the excellent support movepool of Uxie. Instant recovery allows it to be a true wall (rather than a pivot like Uxie), but how much better is it than Gligar or Slowking?
And there's also the fact that Spiritomb and SpD Drapion both shut Cressy down completely. You don't need multiple Dark-types; one is enough, as long as you aren't reckless with it. And if you're using an offensive team, things like Galvantula and Bulk Up Gallade can force it out.
I'll definitely continue playing with some more sets over the next few days, but right now I'm leaning against a quickban. I think taking the full round to test and adjust would be a good thing. Like Omastar and Lilligant before, we may discover it's not broken at all once things settle down a bit.
CM sets have more bulk than Uxie, but does that actually lead to significant changes in what can/cannot break its Subs? Calcs from someone less lazy than me would be cool. Defensive sets also have more bulk, but Cressy lacks the excellent support movepool of Uxie. Instant recovery allows it to be a true wall (rather than a pivot like Uxie), but how much better is it than Gligar or Slowking?
And there's also the fact that Spiritomb and SpD Drapion both shut Cressy down completely. You don't need multiple Dark-types; one is enough, as long as you aren't reckless with it. And if you're using an offensive team, things like Galvantula and Bulk Up Gallade can force it out.
I'll definitely continue playing with some more sets over the next few days, but right now I'm leaning against a quickban. I think taking the full round to test and adjust would be a good thing. Like Omastar and Lilligant before, we may discover it's not broken at all once things settle down a bit.
Cress as part of Stall is making RU seriously un-fun right now. I've already given my arguments but the fact you NEED a super-effective STAB that can boost to reliably kill it just shows how insane it is, and those calcs of NWO didn't take into consideration it often sets up screens.
I don't have much else to add, but Cresselia dominated RU despite having 2 of its best checks also being the strongest & most prevalent pokemon in the tier. We even lost Umbreon, (though in exchange we gained Spiritomb*)
Note: In Spiritomb's case, it has trouble directly damaging Cresselia at times. If its
-defensive: It isn't going to do enough damage with Pursuit or Dark Pulse (especially if Cress uses CM), Shadow Sneak will do next to nothing and Sucker Punch can be bypassed.
-offensive: They usually carry trick which can be avoided with substitute (or a switch) and Sucker Punch can be avoided. Although a special attacker can break through Cress provided it hasn't set up yet.
Note: In Spiritomb's case, it has trouble directly damaging Cresselia at times. If its
-defensive: It isn't going to do enough damage with Pursuit or Dark Pulse (especially if Cress uses CM), Shadow Sneak will do next to nothing and Sucker Punch can be bypassed.
-offensive: They usually carry trick which can be avoided with substitute (or a switch) and Sucker Punch can be avoided. Although a special attacker can break through Cress provided it hasn't set up yet.
Yea, unfortunately, I'm going to have to agree at this point. Cresselia was way too powerful in the past, and it is almost no different this time around. Sure, we have things like Spiritomb to play with now, but that's hardly stopping Cresselia. It really isn't that hard to find a few teammates to take out any possible Cresselia "counters" and let Cresselia reign free. SubCM is by far it's most devastating set, assuming it's played correctly, of course, though I have seen several support sets with dual screens / Thunder Wave / Lunar Dance that function quite well. The point is, the RU metagame is unhealthy with such an overpowered Pokemon in the tier, and Cresselia is thus definitely ban-worthy at this point.
There really isn't much else to say, other than that it needs to GTFO kthnx
There really isn't much else to say, other than that it needs to GTFO kthnx
Another good point regarding Cresselia. It's not just one set that's dominant. Its 3.
First and foremost, the SubCM set, no Special Attackers besides Bugs and Lilligant stand a chance against it. Even Physical Attackers have difficulty breaking through it. Furthermore, these Pokemon wont enjoy taking a +2/+3 Attack either, as they usually have low bulk themselves. Even though Cresselia isn't exactly offensively gifted, it really doesn't matter when its firing off shots at +6, and with Cresselia's massive bulk, it is more than capable of attaining these boosts. Defensive Pokemon are just outright dominated by Cresselia, as very few of them are actually capable of breaking Cresselia's gigantic Substitutes. Essentially, the offensive Pokemon that can KO Cresselia are usually slain by a +2/+3 Special Attack or something, while defensive Pokemon that can take hits from Cresselia just outright can't touch it. This set is broken under the Offensive Characteristic.
The wall set is basically a catch-all for half the offensive Pokemon in the tier. You can pretty much just slap on Qwilfish, a Stealth Rock user, and defensive Cresselia onto a team and expect to have most of the threats in the metagame checked. Meaning you can just slap on 3 Offensive Pokemon and proceed to wreak havoc. Defensive Cresselia just does not die, as I've already shown in the calcs, only a handful of Pokemon are actually capable of KOing it, regardless of boosts. It's not just the obvious Medichams and Hitmonlees that Cress checks either, its Offensive Pokemon in general. Even Pokemon that are supposed to be the bane of Psychic-types have difficulty bringing this thing down! This set is broken under the Defensive Characteristic.
Finally, we have the Dual Screen set. We all know there are Pokes that make us want to cry when behind Screens, namely Gallade and Lilligant. (I'm just naming the two worst, there are other Pokemon that are seemingly unstoppable behind screens as well) Now we add in something that can almost surely get those Screens up, and things get tragic. As shown in previous calculations, its impossible to KO Cresselia without significant boosts from Pokemon with STAB, super effetive moves. Now we add Dual Screens to the mix, and Cress become s pretty much untouchable. If you try to KO it, it will get those screens up anyways. I guess the only way you can honestly prevent Screens is to Taunt Cresselia... except not, since Cresselia has got Magic Coat to reflect Taunt back at the opponent. Honestly, carrying an offensive move isn't mandatory, as this set just aims to get up Screens so something like a Gallade or Liligant can wreak havoc, so you can roll with Reflect, Light Screen, Magic Coat, and Lunar Dance if you like, which brings me to my next point. Fuck. Lunar. Dance. So not only does Cresselia get up Screens, it now KOs itself to not only give the next sweeper an easy set-up. Oh wait! There's more! you know that Gallade you've struggled so hard to Paralyze and bring down to 15% health so your hazards can take care of it on the next switch-in? Guess what! It's back and good as new, becuase Lunar Dance's effect kicks in before entry hazards. Nice. This set is broken under the Support Characteristic.
So essentially, we have ourselves a Pokemon that is potentially broken under all three characteristics (and in my opinion, is broken under the support characteristic beyond a shadow of a doubt). Nothing has changed for Cresselia since its first go around, but RU has lost its best weapons against it. Cresselia is just plain too much for the metagame to handle, even moreso than Sigilyph, but that's a story for another day.
First and foremost, the SubCM set, no Special Attackers besides Bugs and Lilligant stand a chance against it. Even Physical Attackers have difficulty breaking through it. Furthermore, these Pokemon wont enjoy taking a +2/+3 Attack either, as they usually have low bulk themselves. Even though Cresselia isn't exactly offensively gifted, it really doesn't matter when its firing off shots at +6, and with Cresselia's massive bulk, it is more than capable of attaining these boosts. Defensive Pokemon are just outright dominated by Cresselia, as very few of them are actually capable of breaking Cresselia's gigantic Substitutes. Essentially, the offensive Pokemon that can KO Cresselia are usually slain by a +2/+3 Special Attack or something, while defensive Pokemon that can take hits from Cresselia just outright can't touch it. This set is broken under the Offensive Characteristic.
Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.
The wall set is basically a catch-all for half the offensive Pokemon in the tier. You can pretty much just slap on Qwilfish, a Stealth Rock user, and defensive Cresselia onto a team and expect to have most of the threats in the metagame checked. Meaning you can just slap on 3 Offensive Pokemon and proceed to wreak havoc. Defensive Cresselia just does not die, as I've already shown in the calcs, only a handful of Pokemon are actually capable of KOing it, regardless of boosts. It's not just the obvious Medichams and Hitmonlees that Cress checks either, its Offensive Pokemon in general. Even Pokemon that are supposed to be the bane of Psychic-types have difficulty bringing this thing down! This set is broken under the Defensive Characteristic.
Defensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame.
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame.
Finally, we have the Dual Screen set. We all know there are Pokes that make us want to cry when behind Screens, namely Gallade and Lilligant. (I'm just naming the two worst, there are other Pokemon that are seemingly unstoppable behind screens as well) Now we add in something that can almost surely get those Screens up, and things get tragic. As shown in previous calculations, its impossible to KO Cresselia without significant boosts from Pokemon with STAB, super effetive moves. Now we add Dual Screens to the mix, and Cress become s pretty much untouchable. If you try to KO it, it will get those screens up anyways. I guess the only way you can honestly prevent Screens is to Taunt Cresselia... except not, since Cresselia has got Magic Coat to reflect Taunt back at the opponent. Honestly, carrying an offensive move isn't mandatory, as this set just aims to get up Screens so something like a Gallade or Liligant can wreak havoc, so you can roll with Reflect, Light Screen, Magic Coat, and Lunar Dance if you like, which brings me to my next point. Fuck. Lunar. Dance. So not only does Cresselia get up Screens, it now KOs itself to not only give the next sweeper an easy set-up. Oh wait! There's more! you know that Gallade you've struggled so hard to Paralyze and bring down to 15% health so your hazards can take care of it on the next switch-in? Guess what! It's back and good as new, becuase Lunar Dance's effect kicks in before entry hazards. Nice. This set is broken under the Support Characteristic.
Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.
So essentially, we have ourselves a Pokemon that is potentially broken under all three characteristics (and in my opinion, is broken under the support characteristic beyond a shadow of a doubt). Nothing has changed for Cresselia since its first go around, but RU has lost its best weapons against it. Cresselia is just plain too much for the metagame to handle, even moreso than Sigilyph, but that's a story for another day.
1) Those "characteristics of an uber" have been obsolete for years and people need to stop using them.
2) Those sets are all seem to be a lot better on paper than in practice. SubCM is easy to phaze because it can't hurt most phazers. It's easy to Taunt because it can't hurt anything without a boost. If it's Bold, it's easy to status, and if it's Timid, it's actually not that hard to break its Subs with any physical attacker. Sceptile's Leaf Blade (with no boosts or items) has a good chance to break 252/4 Cressy's Subs, and that's one of the weakest physical attackers in RU. And I'm curious which special attackers you're referring to that "don't stand a chance" against it; other than the Bugs and Lilligant, who you've acknowledged beat it, the only ones that come to mind are Porygon-Z and Moltres, who both outspeed and do over 40% on the first hit. Not sure how Cressy's planning on setting up against that.
(It's better than I'm making it sound here, but it's certainly not this unstoppable monster you're calling it. It's somewhere in the middle, and I don't think that middle is broken. In fact, I've found it pretty ineffective with everyone preparing for it so much.)
As for the defensive set, it's extremely misleading to say it's a catch-all answer to everything just because it doesn't get OHKOed. The defensive characteristic you quoted says "stall out". Being 2HKOed =/= stalling out. It definitely checks a lot of things, but most of those were already checked by Gligar or Slowking, who have less balanced bulk but more useful support tools. Is it the best wall in the tier? Probably. Is it such an improvement over the other walls that it will push "half the offensive Pokemon in the tier" into disuse? Absolutely not.
And the dual screens set is simply not so different from any other dual screener. I'd actually usually rather use Uxie for its higher Speed and access to SR and U-turn, and I'd even consider Mesprit over Cressy as a screener/healing wisher because of SR. Hazards really really help a hyper offensive team. You could honestly ban any good dual screens user due to the support characteristic, which is why those characteristics are retired.
3) I'm seeing an awful lot of "it was really good when MegaMoth were here and now they're gone, can you imagine how horrible it must be now?" That was a good argument when Cressy hadn't dropped yet and we were all just speculating, but it has dropped, so you shouldn't need to be imagining anything. Yanmega and Venomoth are irrelevant. Play the game and make your arguments based on how things are now, not based on an imaginary metagame where nothing has changed since September except the bugs being banned.
4) Basically, my biggest problem with quickbanning Cresselia is that there hasn't been time for people to develop good strategies for beating it. Apparently some people are throwing 2-3 Dark-types onto their team for Cressy (I've never actually seen this, but whatever). This is simply not a good strategy. Some people are probably ignoring it entirely, which is obviously not a good strategy either. Once upon a time we thought Lilligant was broken. Over time, people adapted and started learning how to build a team that can handle Lilligant without overpreparing. Maybe this is possible for Cresselia, and maybe it isn't, but it's definitely not possible in only 4 days of testing time on a relatively weak ladder, so banning it now would be a mistake. Give people time to see if Specially Defensive Drapion is a good fit on teams in this new meta, against teams with Cresselia and those without. Same for Spiritomb. Same for Crawdaunt. Same for any other answers we may discover. Nobody would have found out that Stunfisk counters Honchkrow (and a lot of other stuff) if we had just banned Honchkrow 4 days in. Be patient.
2) Those sets are all seem to be a lot better on paper than in practice. SubCM is easy to phaze because it can't hurt most phazers. It's easy to Taunt because it can't hurt anything without a boost. If it's Bold, it's easy to status, and if it's Timid, it's actually not that hard to break its Subs with any physical attacker. Sceptile's Leaf Blade (with no boosts or items) has a good chance to break 252/4 Cressy's Subs, and that's one of the weakest physical attackers in RU. And I'm curious which special attackers you're referring to that "don't stand a chance" against it; other than the Bugs and Lilligant, who you've acknowledged beat it, the only ones that come to mind are Porygon-Z and Moltres, who both outspeed and do over 40% on the first hit. Not sure how Cressy's planning on setting up against that.
(It's better than I'm making it sound here, but it's certainly not this unstoppable monster you're calling it. It's somewhere in the middle, and I don't think that middle is broken. In fact, I've found it pretty ineffective with everyone preparing for it so much.)
As for the defensive set, it's extremely misleading to say it's a catch-all answer to everything just because it doesn't get OHKOed. The defensive characteristic you quoted says "stall out". Being 2HKOed =/= stalling out. It definitely checks a lot of things, but most of those were already checked by Gligar or Slowking, who have less balanced bulk but more useful support tools. Is it the best wall in the tier? Probably. Is it such an improvement over the other walls that it will push "half the offensive Pokemon in the tier" into disuse? Absolutely not.
And the dual screens set is simply not so different from any other dual screener. I'd actually usually rather use Uxie for its higher Speed and access to SR and U-turn, and I'd even consider Mesprit over Cressy as a screener/healing wisher because of SR. Hazards really really help a hyper offensive team. You could honestly ban any good dual screens user due to the support characteristic, which is why those characteristics are retired.
3) I'm seeing an awful lot of "it was really good when MegaMoth were here and now they're gone, can you imagine how horrible it must be now?" That was a good argument when Cressy hadn't dropped yet and we were all just speculating, but it has dropped, so you shouldn't need to be imagining anything. Yanmega and Venomoth are irrelevant. Play the game and make your arguments based on how things are now, not based on an imaginary metagame where nothing has changed since September except the bugs being banned.
4) Basically, my biggest problem with quickbanning Cresselia is that there hasn't been time for people to develop good strategies for beating it. Apparently some people are throwing 2-3 Dark-types onto their team for Cressy (I've never actually seen this, but whatever). This is simply not a good strategy. Some people are probably ignoring it entirely, which is obviously not a good strategy either. Once upon a time we thought Lilligant was broken. Over time, people adapted and started learning how to build a team that can handle Lilligant without overpreparing. Maybe this is possible for Cresselia, and maybe it isn't, but it's definitely not possible in only 4 days of testing time on a relatively weak ladder, so banning it now would be a mistake. Give people time to see if Specially Defensive Drapion is a good fit on teams in this new meta, against teams with Cresselia and those without. Same for Spiritomb. Same for Crawdaunt. Same for any other answers we may discover. Nobody would have found out that Stunfisk counters Honchkrow (and a lot of other stuff) if we had just banned Honchkrow 4 days in. Be patient.
Honko, the fact that people have to prepare so much just in order to deal with Cresselia should be a sign enough. If it wasn't broken, there would be no need to prepare this much for a single threat. It doesn't matter if each set can individually be countered, the point is, Cresselia has too much of an influence on the metagame itself.
Then we should have banned Lilligant, because it took time for people to learn how to prepare for it. Anything that people struggle with should be immediately banned. If you can't beat it on your first try, it's broken.
How about not. The fact that people are preparing for something that was released 4 days ago doesn't mean it's broken. Right now people are being forced to overprepare, because we haven't had time to figure out the best ways to prepare without overpreparing. Just like people initially claimed Lilligant was forcing every team to carry a sleep absorber. And how people initially claimed Honchkrow was forcing every team to use Aggron or Steelix. It took more than 4 days to figure out how to handle those Pokemon effectively without it completely dominating the way they build their teams. So making a decision on Cresselia so quickly is just reckless and lazy. Maybe it will turn out that you really can't beat Cresselia without dedicating your team to Cressy checks and Cressy-check checks. Based on my playing so far, I already doubt that pretty strongly, but let's at least give it more than a single week to find out.
EDIT: I guess to sum up how I'm feeling: something should only be quickbanned if it dominates even with people overpreparing for it. If SubCM Cressy was consistently sweeping good players with prepared teams, then sure, a quickban might be in order to save us from 2-3 weeks of an unbearable meta, but I'm not seeing much evidence of that happening. Same for the other sets. Where are the logs of good players consistently trying in vain to defeat the unbeatable Cresselia? I don't see them, which means there's reason to hope we will be able to find a balance, so a quickban would be a mistake. Obviously people were going to overprepare for Cressy at first based on our expectations beforehand, so using that as evidence that it's broken is pointless.
How about not. The fact that people are preparing for something that was released 4 days ago doesn't mean it's broken. Right now people are being forced to overprepare, because we haven't had time to figure out the best ways to prepare without overpreparing. Just like people initially claimed Lilligant was forcing every team to carry a sleep absorber. And how people initially claimed Honchkrow was forcing every team to use Aggron or Steelix. It took more than 4 days to figure out how to handle those Pokemon effectively without it completely dominating the way they build their teams. So making a decision on Cresselia so quickly is just reckless and lazy. Maybe it will turn out that you really can't beat Cresselia without dedicating your team to Cressy checks and Cressy-check checks. Based on my playing so far, I already doubt that pretty strongly, but let's at least give it more than a single week to find out.
EDIT: I guess to sum up how I'm feeling: something should only be quickbanned if it dominates even with people overpreparing for it. If SubCM Cressy was consistently sweeping good players with prepared teams, then sure, a quickban might be in order to save us from 2-3 weeks of an unbearable meta, but I'm not seeing much evidence of that happening. Same for the other sets. Where are the logs of good players consistently trying in vain to defeat the unbeatable Cresselia? I don't see them, which means there's reason to hope we will be able to find a balance, so a quickban would be a mistake. Obviously people were going to overprepare for Cressy at first based on our expectations beforehand, so using that as evidence that it's broken is pointless.
Ok, I suppose the time given to test Cresselia was rather short, and didn't really give people a chance to use it or "prepare" for it or whatever - I guess I'd rather give Cresselia the benefit of the doubt and let it be included in the current round of suspect testing rather than being quickbanned.
Lilligant is much easier to counter, you shouldn't have to build an entire team to counter one Pokemon which still does it's job pretty well, it's versatile enough that it doesn't matter what you bring to the table, it can cause a major headache with little skill involved. NWO has made a few very detailed arguments, it definitely needs a quick ban.
OK I typed a long answer but lost it...
Anyway the point is, Cresselia is bulky and takes 2 - 3 solid hits to take down. What is being ignored is the fact that it takes unboosted Cresselia 2/3/4 hits to take you down! Cresselia may be nigh on unstoppable at +3 or +4 but what were you doing for those 3 or 4 turns?
If you can't win in a good old fashioned slug-fest with it (which is much easier than people are making out as long as you have a hard hitter not weak to Psychic) then you can turn to alternative strategies: strategies which most teams already have. Phazing, Toxic, Taunt + stall, Trick, Leech Seed, Encore, Perish Song, Unaware. Moonlight's measly 8 PP also mean that merely having any reasonably specially bulky Pokemon that has Calm Mind + recovery in your team (that isn't weak to Psychic) will already have put two nails in Cresselia's coffin. Cresselia's low initial power means that you can carry out most of these strategies with little risk, as long as you are aware that every sweeping Cresselia has to choose 2 out of 3 vital moves: Substitute, Moonlight, coverage - every Cresselia has flaws any team can exploit (no Dark types needed!).
As a side-note that I wanted to straighten out: Cresselia was not 'kept in check' by Yanmega and Venomoth in early RU. They too could not OHKO Cress and were OHKOed back by Ice Beam and Psychic. The only effect their presence had was that Cresselia had slightly less switch-in opportunities, but every battle there would always be an opening (eg when Clefable was healing itself, Ferroseed was spiking up...) where Cress could come in. A Yanmega or Venomoth could be sacrificed to bring Cress's health down but it was much easier to send in a phazer or Taunter that wasn't weak to Psychic. Very rarely did the two bugs and Cresselia directly confront each other because both were too precious for their respective teams and there were easier, more efficient strategies to deal with both.
Cresselia is bulky but impressive damage calcs is not sufficient to deem something broken. Give it a test and then decide. I feel like I'm talking in a thread about Haxorus pre-BW...
Anyway the point is, Cresselia is bulky and takes 2 - 3 solid hits to take down. What is being ignored is the fact that it takes unboosted Cresselia 2/3/4 hits to take you down! Cresselia may be nigh on unstoppable at +3 or +4 but what were you doing for those 3 or 4 turns?
If you can't win in a good old fashioned slug-fest with it (which is much easier than people are making out as long as you have a hard hitter not weak to Psychic) then you can turn to alternative strategies: strategies which most teams already have. Phazing, Toxic, Taunt + stall, Trick, Leech Seed, Encore, Perish Song, Unaware. Moonlight's measly 8 PP also mean that merely having any reasonably specially bulky Pokemon that has Calm Mind + recovery in your team (that isn't weak to Psychic) will already have put two nails in Cresselia's coffin. Cresselia's low initial power means that you can carry out most of these strategies with little risk, as long as you are aware that every sweeping Cresselia has to choose 2 out of 3 vital moves: Substitute, Moonlight, coverage - every Cresselia has flaws any team can exploit (no Dark types needed!).
As a side-note that I wanted to straighten out: Cresselia was not 'kept in check' by Yanmega and Venomoth in early RU. They too could not OHKO Cress and were OHKOed back by Ice Beam and Psychic. The only effect their presence had was that Cresselia had slightly less switch-in opportunities, but every battle there would always be an opening (eg when Clefable was healing itself, Ferroseed was spiking up...) where Cress could come in. A Yanmega or Venomoth could be sacrificed to bring Cress's health down but it was much easier to send in a phazer or Taunter that wasn't weak to Psychic. Very rarely did the two bugs and Cresselia directly confront each other because both were too precious for their respective teams and there were easier, more efficient strategies to deal with both.
Cresselia is bulky but impressive damage calcs is not sufficient to deem something broken. Give it a test and then decide. I feel like I'm talking in a thread about Haxorus pre-BW...
Oh my god, THANK YOU for saying this. "Quickbans" are the biggest BS in this site's history and represents complete laziness. The attitudes I've seen in this thread are pathetic, we're supposed to be a competitive community, not a Theorymon community. It's been 4 days, how many people advocating a quick ban have even played more than 10 matches?
There's a good reason why Cresselia is RU in the first place. It just sits there and it can't hurt anything. Any user of Toxic stops it cold. It's basically Uxie, except it trades Stealth Rock and U-Turn for slightly more bulk. It takes multiple Calm Minds before it can hurt anything. Its offensive movepool is complete garbage. Pumping EVs into offense to try and remedy that makes you vulnerable defensively without gaining the ability to KO things in return.
It would be completely ridiculous to "quick ban" something in any tier, let alone Cresselia in RU.
I have to completely agree with Honko. 4 Days is not a clear indication of Cresselia's strength, and it isn't even explicitly dominating the metagame like Kyurem and Drought (Vulpix) had been doing in early UU, and the playerbase in UU didn't quick ban either of them. Cresselia doesn't have immediate offensive presence (The same base Special Attack as Uxie), that makes it hard for it to sweep unless your team is full of really frail Pokemon that are also weak to its coverage moves. It does not get Screens up better than other Screen setters like Deoxys-S in OU, that could outspeed even many common Choice Scarf users, and hazards are important for very offensive teams as Honko has stated, which is why Cresselia isn't certainly an overwhelmningly better Screen supporter than the other Psychics.
or not.....
Anyway, I'm bumping this thread and sticking it again because Cress will be voted on again in the next Council as part of the full stage round.
What you're expected to do in this thread:
1. Post which sets you used in the round and what you found good about it, what beat it, etc.
2. Discuss Cresselia's place in the tier, has the metagame adapted properly to it? Does it break the metagame? What counters are there to Cresselia?
3. All Council members are expected to post their thoughts on, experiences using, and experiences against Cresselia in this thread. As of now the Council isn't determined, but they will have to eventually!
4. The Council, when decided, should also post here to figure out a time when they can get on IRC on #rarelyused to have a dedicated discussion on the suspects. Not all Council members are expected to make decided time, but MOST if not all Council members should try their damndest to attend.
Anyway, I'm bumping this thread and sticking it again because Cress will be voted on again in the next Council as part of the full stage round.
What you're expected to do in this thread:
1. Post which sets you used in the round and what you found good about it, what beat it, etc.
2. Discuss Cresselia's place in the tier, has the metagame adapted properly to it? Does it break the metagame? What counters are there to Cresselia?
3. All Council members are expected to post their thoughts on, experiences using, and experiences against Cresselia in this thread. As of now the Council isn't determined, but they will have to eventually!
4. The Council, when decided, should also post here to figure out a time when they can get on IRC on #rarelyused to have a dedicated discussion on the suspects. Not all Council members are expected to make decided time, but MOST if not all Council members should try their damndest to attend.
Well to reignite the discussion I suppose I could talk a bit about my Cresellia's preformance. I have been using the SubCM set now the thing is that thing hasn't been impressing me (or probably it is the fact I don't have such a good RU team) I only manage to win once thanks to it and I needed two Calm Minds in oreder to do that if I remember. So for the fact that it lacks raw power I don't think Cresselia should be banned. It is true that it can survive a couple of hits do to its defenses. However one thing that intrigues me and I wanna ask someone with more experience than me. Is Dusknoir a potential good counter for Cresselia?
In my opinion (and many others it seems) the only Cresselia that deserves attention is the wall.
Max Attack Adamant Life Orb Sharpedo Crunch vs 252 / 252 Bold Cresselia: 50.5% - 59.9%
Max Attack Adamant Choice Band Spiritomb Sucker Punch vs 252 / 252 Bold Cresselia: 49.1% - 58.1%
Max Attack Jolly +2 Life Orb Drapion Crunch vs 252 / 252 Bold Cresselia: 75.7% - 89.2%
Max Attack Adamant Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs 252 / 252 Bold Cresselia: 52.7% - 62.2%
Max Attack Jolly +2 Life Orb Scolipede Megahorn vs 252 / 252 Bold Cresselia: 113.5% - 133.8%
Max Attack Jolly +2 Life Orb Scyther Bug Bite vs 252 / 252 Bold Cresselia: 97.3% - 114.9%
Max Special Attack Timid Choice Specs Galvantula Bug Buzz vs 252 / 4 Bold Cresselia: 64.9% - 76.1%
Max Special Attack Timid Life Orb Accelgor Bug Buzz vs 252 / 4 Bold Cresselia: 57.2% - 68%
Courtesy of New World Order, you can see the problem with trying to attack it, nothing can directly kill it, except Adaptability Crawdaunt and Hustle Durant. Scolipede and Galvantula don't even scare it, doing just over half with LO super-effective super powerful STAB boosted attacks and letting it heal the damage away. Against an offensive team Cresselia will have no trouble paralyzing everything, and the only thing I can think off of the top of my head which doesn't care to face Cres down is Klingklang, who can't really function at all early game. It's too good of a wall and too hard to take out.
Max Attack Adamant Life Orb Sharpedo Crunch vs 252 / 252 Bold Cresselia: 50.5% - 59.9%
Max Attack Adamant Choice Band Spiritomb Sucker Punch vs 252 / 252 Bold Cresselia: 49.1% - 58.1%
Max Attack Jolly +2 Life Orb Drapion Crunch vs 252 / 252 Bold Cresselia: 75.7% - 89.2%
Max Attack Adamant Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs 252 / 252 Bold Cresselia: 52.7% - 62.2%
Max Attack Jolly +2 Life Orb Scolipede Megahorn vs 252 / 252 Bold Cresselia: 113.5% - 133.8%
Max Attack Jolly +2 Life Orb Scyther Bug Bite vs 252 / 252 Bold Cresselia: 97.3% - 114.9%
Max Special Attack Timid Choice Specs Galvantula Bug Buzz vs 252 / 4 Bold Cresselia: 64.9% - 76.1%
Max Special Attack Timid Life Orb Accelgor Bug Buzz vs 252 / 4 Bold Cresselia: 57.2% - 68%
Courtesy of New World Order, you can see the problem with trying to attack it, nothing can directly kill it, except Adaptability Crawdaunt and Hustle Durant. Scolipede and Galvantula don't even scare it, doing just over half with LO super-effective super powerful STAB boosted attacks and letting it heal the damage away. Against an offensive team Cresselia will have no trouble paralyzing everything, and the only thing I can think off of the top of my head which doesn't care to face Cres down is Klingklang, who can't really function at all early game. It's too good of a wall and too hard to take out.
first off about cress, the subCM set is extremely overrated, and shouldnt even be a set lol, uxie does it better! (it has access to good coverage moves) what makes cress broken! is the support factor of lunar dance, instant healing something after its counter is dead can be extremely dangerous for the opponent, not to mention it can set up rain, sun ,screens, and trick room, i have been in the top ten using a Trick room team with a cress on it partnered with a CB driuddigon, most matches were free wins if i could get a lunar dance off.
if cress can indirectly cause so many easy wins, its should be banned for the support it provides imo.
if cress can indirectly cause so many easy wins, its should be banned for the support it provides imo.
Double01
Hate it or love it the under dog's on top
Im on the fence with this pokemon. I strongly disagree with omicron that the must devastating set is sub cm. Yes it is good but it has numerous counters to that set (sharpedo, scolie, klinklang) I'm sure there are many others. What I think is what cress's strongest aspects are it utilizing support sets. With the amount of bulk it can supply your team with numerous amount support moves (tr, dual screens, rain/sun, t wave) all of those support moves ALONG with lunar dance makes it the best support poke in the ru tier. If anything thtabthe reason it should be banned not it's lack luster sub cm set which uxie does do better >.>. I'm just sort of reitterating what molten said because I believe he hit it right on the head
Despite my previous post, I am going to completely take back my words and present an entirely new opinion on Cresselia. Originally, I, along with several others, I am sure, believed that the SubCM set was easily the most dangerous. However, after some extensive playing with Cresselia and testing of its different sets, I no longer believe SubCM is even remotely threatening. There are several hard stops to it, such as Durant, which resists both Psychic and Ice Beam, and KOes with STAB X-Scissor. I now believe Cresselia's most dangerous aspect is its supporting capability. Access to Thunder Wave, Dual Screens, Moonlight, and even Lunar Dance makes it a bitch to take down, and an unmatched team supporter. Even before Dual Screens are set up, Cresselia has extremely good natural bulk. Although it is susceptible to Taunt, not all Pokemon carry Taunt, and by the time you manage to Taunt it, it will probably have managed to get a Screen or both up. For this reason, I can see why some people are leaning towards banning it right now. However, I honestly don't think that Cresselia is ban-worthy simply because of its support capabilities; its offensive presence is minimal without some setup, and even then, it isn't really that powerful. At this point, I'm going to have to say that Cresselia isn't ban-worthy, but I'm certainly on the fence about it. It's quite a tough call.
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