BW Ubers Iron Curtain: More Stall than the Bathroom

[trickroom]

Iron Curtain: More Stall than the Bathroom​

Hi everyone, this is my third RMT for generation 5. I am sure most of you know me anyway, and Gyarados is still much more awesome than this RMT. Hope you do not mind it. This time I decided to revive Classic Stall, it is still a very effective play style but is sadly ignored. I named it Iron Curtain and More Stall than the Bathroom because Colonel_M and Eo gave me the idea. It seems to fit well with the RMT since all the members in this team are ROCK HARD, even Palkia is deceptively bulky. What's more interesting, Eo Ut Mortus and Colonel_M are both awesome dudes and they seem to be the best. Iunno though Gyarados might be more awesome than them!

With Drown All and rain teams getting more and more popular, I am posting Classic Stall which is actually sun based. This team is in the Ubers article but I doubt people even notice it so I am posting it here. Blissey needs to be used more because leftovers is actually a pretty big advantage, with Giratina, Groudon and Lugia around, the loss of physical bulk from Chansey isn't much of a big deal.

If this team gets popular, Heatran and Dark Arceus might once again be popular again LOL I had a fun time trolling the ladder with Gyarados, but I guess I should post a more serious team as an RMT.

This team did reasonably well, it goes down to hax sometimes but otherwise Classic Stall is still one of my best teams ever. I didn't use it much on ladder because the ladder to be honest sucks. Most great battlers don't ladder much anyway. Eo and Tyranel_M are great examples.

Oh yeah, this RMT is aiming to popularize GIRATINA. Yeah the CAPS are a must because Giratina is always bashed for being useless. I don't see much RMTs with Giratina, also Giratina walls any Swords Dance Arceus version but Dragon who still loses to Giratina one-on-one anyway. How can we forget the mightiness of the overall bulkiest pokemon in the game? Lunar New Year is coming, so I am trying to make/remake an awesome team as a gift for new Ubers battlers who might want some help at first. Have a blast reading this RMT :D

The Team

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Little Team Building Process

1) Lugia, Giratina and Blissey are staples so I have to include them for Classic Stall. If you want to stall, you have to use at least one of them.

2) Groudon is pretty important for the sun and providing an answer to Zekrom. I could try using Kyogre instead but since sun teams are decreasing in usage, I picked sun instead like the DPP Classic Stall. Groudon also has the advantage of nullifying Kyogre's immense power. We all know Kyogre is way more threatening than Groudon offensively. As strong as Groudon's Choice Band Earthquake is, it pales in comparison to Choice Specs Kyogre's maximum power Water Spout. Even Surf out damages Earthquake due to the weather boost.

3) Blissey > Chansey because I like to switch around more and Blissey is already being used in Ubers stall since RSE. I am keeping that tradition. Also, while this is unlikely, in a Blissey vs Chansey match, Blissey will emerge victorious all the time.

4) Palkia over Latias because Latias sucks now without Soul Dew. It also gives me a revenge killer and check to Darkrai and Mewtwo. Latias is either too slow, weak or not bulky enough.

5) I think I need something that can sweep and phaze at the same time, so I removed Reflect on Lugia and put in Calm Mind. It worked incredibly well. It is also very unexpected to see a Whirlwind Lugia carrying Ice Beam.

6) Forretress becomes the Spikes user of choice, because of Toxic Spikes and Rapin Spin. Giratina + Forretress is a pretty solid combination! Unlike Ferrothorn, Forretress can spin and it can defeat Deoxys-A one-on-one due to the lack of weakness to Superpower.

7) The team is set and it owns a lot, maybe even more successfully than in DPP because Heatran no longer exists. OK, I agree Heatran could give this team some major issues, which is why I put in Earth Power on Palkia in the first place.

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*Colonel_M*

Groudon @ Leftovers
Trait: Drought
EVs: 252 HP / 56 Def / 200 SpD
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Earthquake
- Dragon Tail
- Stealth Rock
- Fire Blast

Groudon is always one of the best wall for a stall team as it almost always manages to reliably get Stealth Rock up. Groudon summons sunlight so this is automatically considered sun stall. Groudon can also phaze well with Dragon Tail which not only deals damage from Groudon's massive physical Attack stat but smashes through Taunt as well. Earthquake is a powerful STAB attack, and is needed to check things like Bulk Up Dialga and Zekrom or even Heatran. Fire Blast fills up the last slot to deal with Steel-type Spikers which are extremely annoying to the team otherwise such as Ferrothron and Skarmory. Fire Blast owns Gliscor and prevents it from getting a free Substitute.

The EVs give Groudon some mixed defenses, extra physical Defense is not needed too much as Lugia and Giratina are present in the team. The extra Special Defense allows Groudon to take on Dialga and Darkrai better. It also allows me to beat Heatran one-on-one since I can survive an unboosted Fire Blast.

I need Groudon to take out opposing Forretress as it is my only way of killing it fast besides Palkia's Fire Blast. The sun Groudon brings helps this team a lot but I am considering Stone Edge because Ho-Oh is a bitch to deal with even with Giratina and Lugia in the team.

Colonel_M is the KING and he destroys anything in his path just like Groudon does! Groudon can also trample weak prey like Jibaku I think. Both Groudon and Colonel_M are TYRANT KINGs. Colonel_M gave me a lot of advice when I first came to Smogon, and he is just that good!

*Fireburn*

Forretress @ Leftovers
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature (+SpD, -Spe)
- Spikes
- Toxic Spikes
- Rapid Spin
- Gyro Ball

Once incredibly popular in DPP as the only viable Ubers spinner, now it faces severe competition from Ferrothorn as a Spikes user.

Forretress is the only viable Rapid Spinner in Ubers that functions well in the sun. Toxic Spikes help stall out a lot of Pokemon such as Mewtwo and Arceus. Forretress is also chosen for his ability to lay Spikes to prevent the opponent from switching frequently. This metal bug is also very useful due to its Steel-typing, being able to easily switch into Dragon-type attacks and set up more entry hazards to the further hinder the opponent.

Maximum special bulk is now standard on Ubers Forry to ensure Forretress isn't crushed by most special attacks. Rapid Spin is needed to spin away hazards that greatly hamper this team's defensive core. There are a few other moves I am considering: I sometimes use Hidden Power Ice to be anti-Gliscor and it hits Garchomp fairly hard. We all know how annoying Gliscor can be if it managed to setup. I am using Gyro Ball now but I don't have much problems with Sub Dakrai at the moment. Toxic seems to fit in on Forretress too to prevent any setup attempts. Volt Switch is pretty much useless but it helps to scout and KO Cloyster and Gyarados.

Forretress is the base of this team, without him this team will fall especially when hazards aren't up. Fireburn loves Forretress, and man I miss him ;_; Forretress is hiding his true body in his shell though, just like Fireburn being hiding somewhere now :(

*Eo Ut Mortus*

Blissey @ Leftovers
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature (+SpD, -Atk)
- Seismic Toss
- Protect
- Wish
- Toxic

Blissey is a key member on any Uber stall team [first used in Classic Stall] along due to her ability to wall nearly every single special attacker in the game. In Ubers, unlike standard, Blissey needs a Calm nature with special powerhouses like Reshiram running rampant. Wish allows me to nearly full restore teammates, and Protect lets scout and rack up Poison damage. Seismic Toss is mandatory as it her only way of dealing damage, and Toxic lets me stall out Pokemon that are immune to Toxic Spikes due to Levitate or Flying typing such as Latias and Lugia. Wish allows Blissey to be a real team player. Seismic Toss is Blissey's only way to touch Dialga and Heatran, both annoying stall breakers so it is the preferred option. Blissey over Chansey because Blissey scouts better, has leftovers so she isn't worn down fast by entry hazards. Blissey also deals with Heatran better with passive recovery. Since this team focuses on Toxic Spikes a bit, Blissey is the better choice.

I am thinking about Snatch to own Dark Arceus if this still exists. Snatch also prevents a 1 layer Toxic Spikes poisoned Ghost Arceus from sweeping the team. So far, Dark Arceus is so rare, I dropped Snatch, besides, Dark Arceus sucks in general compared to Ghost Arceus.

Blissey represents the mighty Eo Ut Mortus because they both rule. Eo also sometimes use a girl avatar LOL Both Blissey and Eo are awesome but if I have to pick one, Eo is probably more awesome than Blissey. I think I changed my mind, Blissey is more awesome, because she is fatter, I would also like to see a showdown between Eo and Colonel_M to declare who is the real winner as the King of Tyrants though!

*Jibaku*

Giratina @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature (+Def, -SpA)
- Will-O-Wisp
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Dragon Tail

Another one of Classic Stall's main pokemon, I have finally decided to make an RMT on it for BW Ubers. Giratina has been long forgotten as a Great Wall so I am taking this opportunity to bring it back to glory.

Giratina walls many threats including opposing Groudon, Scarf Kyogre and the deadly Ho-Oh. Giratina has extremely high defenses and it blocks any Rapid Spin attempts from all users. The only one which stands at chance at breaking Giratina is Excadrill who needs some entry hazards on the field with some hax to do it. Will-O-Wisp is standard on Giratina, it cripples physical attackers and Steel-types such as Steel Arceus who can be troublesome otherwise. Giratina is also the team's answer to Victini and Blaziken, both who become incredibly powerful in the sun. Rest and Sleep Talk is all Giratina has for recovery. Dragon Tail fills up the last slot so that Giratina can phaze and deal some decent damage in the process thanks to STAB.

I am actually considering using Earthquake because Heatran sucks ass. I hate losing Sleep Talk though but Giratina just sits there anyway, maybe slap some threats out with Dragon Tail. He doesn't do much really besides phazing and burning things. However, Giratina's immense bulk can come in handy sometimes such as when handling Ground Arceus who could be troublesome to the team otherwise.

Giratina is named Jibaku because Jibaku loves Giratina. They are both tough and are Ubers veterans. Jibaku is also one of the best battlers around so Giratina fits him well. Giratina is dubbed the Great Wall because he walls the fart out of many threats including the dreaded Ho-Oh.

<trickroom> it helps trolll Jibaku a lot
<Colonel_M> Jibaku sux though

*firecape*

Palkia @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Thunder
- Earth Power

Don't listen to firecape, Latias sucks without Soul Dew. What's worse, Latias will definitely fail in countering Specs Kyogre without her mystical item. Palkia is a natural fit in this team over Latias because most teams in DPP picked either Latias or Palkia anyway as their Water Spout absorber. Latias even fails to counter Manaphy this generation which sucks.

Palkia is the only one capable of absorbing Specs Water Spout in the team as Giratina is using a physically defensive spread. Draco Meteor maims the many Dragon-types in the tier and is Palkia's strongest attack in neutral weather. Fire Blast destroys Steel-types including Ferrothorn. Earth Power is used in the last slot because Heatran SUCKS. Earth Power also hits Dialga fairly hard especially if the weather is rainy. I am considering Hydro Pump because Heatran sucks so much it no longer exists, probably due to the increasing Gyarados usage.

Palkia still works like the usual Scarf Palkia in any other team. Latias is unable to fit in anymore in Classic Stall. Revenge killing Darkrai and Mewtwo is always a great bonus. It can also deal with Dragon Dance Rayquaza if both Lugia and Groudon are weakened.

firecape brought me to Ubers C&C actually, without him I might not have even joined the Smogon forums. I first knew him in IRC, where he talked to me, and asked me to join the forums or something !_! Also, firecape is friendly and STRONG, got swept by Gyarados before so Palkia fits him nicely.

*bojangles*

Lugia @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 SpD
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Ice Beam
- Roost
- Calm Mind
- Whirlwind

Since this is Classic Stall, without Lugia, it wouldn't even be Classic Stall lol. Lugia is just THAT much of a beast, and I am surprised why his usage dropped.

I guess it might become boring for people because I always post RMTs featuring Lugia. Lugia is my favourite Pokemon to use, after Gyarados of course! Gyarados doesn't thrive in the Ubers metagame but I like him so much it doesn't matter! The thing you should notice is I always change Lugia sets in every RMT I post. Instead of using Drown All's Sub Lugia, this time I decided to use Calm Mind Lugia while retaining much of Lugia's bulk. Lugia fits in the last slot because it checks threats the other walls fail to counter such as Mixed Bulk Up Dialga, and phazing things in general.

A Bold nature is used to absorb more hits while the random Special Defense EVs are for surviving 2 Thunders from most Palkia and Kyogre. Whirlwind allows the team to abuse the hazards and phaze out setup sweepers. Ice Beam destroys Rayquaza, Salamence and hurts Groudon or Ground Arceus. Roost over Recover because Lugia wants to stall out Stone Edge Groudon while Pressure helps pp stall out even things like Ho-Oh. The good thing about Calm Mind is while Lugia is weak, after a few boosts, even that pathetic Ice Beam will become respectably powerful. Not liking Timid nature because Lugia wants the extra bulk this generation to handle more threats such as Arceus and Excadrill.

The beauty of this set is Lugia can actually sweep on his own! Whirlwind allows me to defeat other Calm Mind users not named Kyogre or Arceus variants carrying Roar. I have even defeated Dark Arceus this way, set up Calm Mind 6 times with it, survive the Judgment and phaze it out. Next, Lugia can proceed to sweep your team. With Toxic Spikes, this set becomes even deadlier because Kyogre and some Arceus formes will now actually lose to Lugia in a Calm Mind war.

So you think you can sweep me with Calm Mind Giratina-O? Lugia steps in and saves the day GG. Even Shadow Ball doesn't do too much. If it does have Shadow Ball, Palkia has an easier time with Giratina-O too.

Lugia is named after bojangles because bojangles is a very experienced battler (He owned Ubers for quite sometime now) and you have to play very well to defeat him. Lugia has the same qualities because Lugia entered the scene since generation 2, and he is arguably the toughest Pokemon to take out. Bojangles also helped me a lot in various ways, oh yeah he supported me too in C&C :D

Rate properly and do not bash Gyarados here, you can do it elsewhere or just keep it to yourself. This team's main weakness is obviously Heatran and Dark Arceus. Both can easily be countered by adding a single move, Earthquake for Heatran and Snatch in Dark Arceus's case. Nevertheless, they suck so much I don't care using it solely for them.

Threat List :​

Uber Threat list
Black indicates minor threat
Blue indicates a somewhat mild threat
Red indicates a high level threat

Arceus : Arceus sucks, I don't like using it

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Swords Dance Arceus:

*Extremekiller Arceus: Lugia, Giratina, Groudon all can phaze it out. Giratina is the best, because it can actually survive a critical hit +2 Shadow Claw and burn to cripple it. Once burned, its GG Arceus. Forretress can take some hits, if it does have Shadow Force, I can switch in Blissey. Toxic Spikes makes it sad too.

*Ground Dancer: Both Groudon and Lugia are bulky enough to shave off a +2 Stone Edge or Earthquake and phaze it out. Giratina takes little damage from everything and can force it out with Dragon Tail or burn it

*Rockey sweeper: Groudon and Giratina own these. Earthquake smashes it while a burn rapes it alive. Lugia can phaze it out if Arceus is unboosted. Palkia can revenge with Draco Meteor.

*Ghost Stallbreaker: People say it breaks stall but it sucks because its weak. Groudon survives any attack and phaze. Forretress can survive any attack too. Toxic Spikes makes it sad while Giratina and Lugia can both survive a +2 Shadow Claw to show you how weak Arceus is. Both can phaze it, Giratina has the advantage of burning it. Palkia can always revenge since Extremespeed is weak.

*Dragon style Extremekiller: Lugia and Groudon can survive +2 Outrage and Dragon Tail it out. Palkia can always revenge this thing. I put it in Blue because it can be annoying when paired with Wobbuffet trapping Palkia. Forretress can take some attacks and Toxic Spikes ensures it doesn't live long.

*Swiming Extremekiller: Giratina is the best counter for this thing in the game. Will-O-Wisp is all I need to cripple it. Groudon takes away the rain and phazes it out or just attack with Earthquake. Lugia can phaze while Palkia can Thunder it for the 2HKO.

*Steel Dancer: Groudon, Giratina and Lugia survive any attack and can Dragon Tail or Whirlwind it out. Groudon smacks it with Earthquake while Giratina again cripples this with a burn. Palkia again can Fire Blast it for the 2HKO or OHKO in sun.

Calm Mind Arceus:

*Mono Steel: Lugia can phaze it out if Arceus lacks Roar. Groudon can 2HKO it but hates boosted hits or a potential burn. Giratina can burn it and phaze should Arceus drop Roar. The main way of dealing with this thing is burn it with Giratina and Blissey can answer from there with repeated Seismic Toss.

*Grass: I love facing these, Forretress gets free set up on it. Lugia enjoys setting up free Calm Minds on it and phazing it out. Blissey can Toxic it and it's a dead Arceus. Palkia can fry it with Fire Blast.

*Fighting: Lugia again, with Whirlwind and surviving Ice Beams easily. Lugia can setup alongside these and phaze it out. Giratina can burn and phaze, Ice Beam is too weak to hurt me. Blissey beats it one-on-one.

*Rock:Groudon is the best switch in but I have to be wary of Will-O-Wisp. Giratina can burn it and phaze. Blissey walls it cold.

*Ghost: Ghost Arceus is a problem only if it got poisoned by first Toxic Spikes layer. Blissey walls it easily otherwise. One-on-one, Lugia can set up alongside it and phaze it out. Groudon can phaze but doesn't enjoy taking Judgments since it lacks recovery.

*Electric: Completely owned by Blissey. Groudon can sometimes smash it with Earthquake should Arceus drop Grass Knot. Giratina can take any attack, burn and phaze accordingly.

*Dark: No comment cause it sucks too much. Anyway, SNATCH is the best way.

*Poison: Groudon can take it out, Blissey can Seismic Toss it with Giratina burn support. Lugia can easily phaze it out. I will defeat it in the end if Arceus is burned.

*Ice: Blissey walls this cold, Forretress sets up on these.

*Water: Blissey again owns this like Eo destroys his opponents. Giratina and Lugia can always phaze. Groudon makes it weaker than the standard Ubers Gyarados.

*Fire: Giratina and Blissey walls this. Also it doesn't enjoy hazards at all. Groudon can survive one attack and KO with Earthquake. Lugia can phaze but doesn't enjoy boosted Fire Blasts in sun.

Defensive Arceus:

*Standard Wallceus Forretress gets free set up, Giratina walls it, Lugia gets free setup, Blissey's Toxic, Palkia can 2HKO it sometimes and it only walls Groudon LOL.

*Support Ghost Arceus: Blissey Toxics it and it's the end for Arceus. Lugia can actually set up on these since Judgment doesn't do a lot.

*Support Grass Arceus: Lugia, Blissey, Giratina, Forretress, Palkia.

*Seel Arceus: Giratina walls it. It can't touch Blissey either. Groudon can take it out with Earthquake. Forretress sets up on it.

*Poison Tankceus: Giratina walls it. Lugia sets up and sweeps. Blissey walls it easily. Groudon with Earthquake

Darkrai: The bane of Classic Stall...Not anymore!

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Nasty Plot: Raped by Palkia. Giratina can absorb Sleep Talk. If it tries to get greedy, both Lugia and Giratina can phaze. Groudon survives a boosted attack and KO it back. Blissey can some what handle it with Toxic. Toxic Spikes is the key in winning this.

Swords Dance: I considered these as gimmicky because the standard Nasty Plot Darkrai sweeps a lot better. Anyway, Lugia, Groudon, Giratina walls it completely.

Dialga: Dialga actually makes me mad, with those flying Roars and powerful attacks.

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Choice Specs: They hit like a truck but Blissey owns it better than Eo smashing Iconic into the ground. Lugia walls it too save Thunder in the rain. Giratina survives any non Dragon-type attack. Groudon rolls it with Earthquake.

Choice Scarf: Blissey eats this alive. Even Outrage fails to KO, don't listen to noobs, Outrage is useless on Scarf Dialga. Lugia survives any attack, even Thunder fails to 2HKO, just to show how bulky Lugia is. Groudon beats it with Earthquake. Giratina survives anything.

Defensive Bulk Up: This one can be a bit trickier if it's the last pokemon. Lugia deals with it easily mid game. When it's the last pokemon Groudon can make it sad with Earthquake. I usually try to weaken it mid game with Spikes and constantly threatening it with Groudon. Giratina can phaze it out mid game. Lugia can usually set up Calm Minds on it, survive Outrage and phaze it out.

Mixed: Lugia is the arguably the best counter to it. Thunder is a large problem if it has it but even then Lugia generally outspeeds it and can Roost out. The sun makes is unreliable anyway. Groudon can actually survive Draco Meteor with my EV spread and KO Dialgia in return. Blissey can survive any attack, doesn't enjoy Outrage though. Forretress gets free Spikes on Outrages.

Trick Room Dialga: Lugia walls it completely as even Life Orb Draco Meteor does less than 67%. Groudon still smashes this. Blissey outruns Dialga in Trick Room LOL so it makes it harder to break through Blissey.

Giratina: GREAT WALL!

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Physically / Specially Defensive: Forretress gets free Spikes if it tries to spin block, Lugia gets free Calm Minds and phaze it out easily. Palkia can land a Draco Meteor for the 2HKO. I can't hurt it much but it can't do a thing to my team either save burning Groudon.

Calm Mind RestTalk: Palkia beats unhealthy ones. Lugia sets up on these, and phaze it out so I will win the war. Mid game Giratina and Groudon can phaze it, it doesn't enjoy Spikes either.

Giratina-O: Best spinblocker?

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Mixed Spinblocker: Lugia is likely the best counter to all Mixed Giratina-O sets, fearing only paralysis from Thunder. Lugia can Calm Mind up and smash it with Ice Beam or phaze. Palkia OHKOes it with Draco Meteor.

Sub Calm Mind: Lugia is the best counter to it with Calm Mind and Whirlwind + Ice Beam. Groudon can phaze it out and doesn't take too much from Dragon Pulse. Palkia kills it should it not behind a sub.

Groudon: Large dino.

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Support: Lugia walls it to hell and forth but cannot prevent Stealth Rock being set up. Toxic can hamper Groudon's bulk easily. Giratina always threaten these with burn and Palkia can rip off a good amount.

Rock Polish: Giratina, Lugia and my own Groudon.

Ho-Oh: Large phoenix (turkey?) It is always underrated as a threat, not sure why its usage dwindled probably due to the rise of rain teams.

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Offensive Tank Stealth Rock will limit it's lifespan by a whole lot. Giratina walls it like Eo obliterating Iconic. Lugia can phaze it. Flame Charge versions are handled the same way.

Kyogre: Palkia, Giratina, Blissey and I have the sun.

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Mono Attacking RestTalk: Groudon, Giratina and Lugia. Palkia can smack it with Thunder. The mono attacker is actually rather weak, all of my phazers can survive attacks from it with ease. Groudon has to be more cautious though.

Choice Specs / Scarf: Palkia + Blissey and Giratina. Blissey takes anything but full power Specs Spouts. Palkia does that anyway and has Thunder to cripple it.

Lugia: Great Wall edition one? Best physical wall but does nothing much against my team but phaze.

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Great Wall: Forretress and Blissey. Forretress gets free Spikes, Blissey Toxics it. If it does have Sub, it is inviting my Forretress to switch in and spin or get more layers. My own Lugia can smack it with boosted Ice Beam if the opponent lets me set up before phazing.

Calm Mind: Blissey and my own Lugia. Blissey Toxics it and its GG. Groudon/Giratina can phaze it out. Forretress can still set up on it.

Mewtwo: Biggest killer in Gen5?

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Psycho Killer: Lugia, Giratina, Groudon depending on the moves it has. Palkia revenges when Mewtwo is weakened. Even if it does have Ice Beam, Giratina and Lugia can still survive a move and phaze. I hope Toxic Spikes are out against this thing.

StallTwo: Switch around with Giratina and Blissey. Palkia can smack it a bit without Light Screen.

Deoxys-A: Hits very hard...

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Mixed: Lugia and Giratina can take at least one attack and KO it. Palkia can revenge it. Forretress beats it if Deoxys-A drops Fire Punch.

Deoxys-S: Not seen much anymore...

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Lead: Forretress screws all his Spikes or Rocks with Rapid Spin. Every single member of the team can beat it. Too weak to hurt much.

Palkia: Usually a Scarf user anyway...

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Choice Specs / Scarf : Blissey + Lugia and Groudon walls it. Forretress can set up on Dragon-type moves. Lugia survives all but hates Thunder in rain or Hydro Pump. Blissey walls it easily. Groudon is weakened by repeated assaults but the sun makes stalling it out a lot easier with Lugia.

Mixed: Groudon, Lugia and Blissey. Groudon survives any attack and Dragon Tails it out or Earthquake. Lugia walls it easily and can phaze anytime if needed. Blissey again walls it especially in the sun where Aqua Tail becomes so damn weak.

Rayquaza: Deadliest sweeper and still is in BW, forces you use a Steel-type.

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Dragon Dance / Swords Dance: Lugia beats any version with Ice Beam. Groudon can do the same. Palkia revenges.

Mixed: Lugia walls it. Palkia revenges. If hazards are out against me, I am in a tougher situation. Groudon survives Draco Meteor and can Dragon Tail it. Giratina walls it if Rayquaza just Draco Meteored something.

Reshiram: I hate these, they hit very hard and I am using a sun team which made it even harder to stop.

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Choice Specs / ScarfPalkia/Blissey are the best. Palkia survives Blue Flare and can OHKO it with Draco Meteor. Blissey takes everything else and can survive 2 Blue Flare with Protect. Dies fast to hazards too.

Flame Charge:Blissey is my best thing. It cannot Outrage anyway if it does I can take it out with any of my team members. Pakia revenges.

Shaymin-S: Easily foiled by Lugia unless it gets way too lucky.

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Choice Scarf / Specs: Blissey can sort of wall it. Lugia, Giratina can do the same. All of them hate Special Defense drops though. Forretress can take Seed Flares easily. Palkia can revenge kill with Fire Blast but hates Leaf Storm or Seed Flare.

Sub Seeder: Annoys me but I have Lugia for this. Palkia can roast this.

Zekrom: Jibaku's pet..

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Choice Band / Scarf: Groudon and Forretress can come in on the right moves. Giratina swallows Bolt Strikes, Lugia soaks up Outrage.

Hone Claws: Groudon is my best bet. Palkia can revenge it.

Mixed: Groudon still beats it. Lugia can sometimes stall it out if no paralysis landed. Giratina can take any attack even Outrage or Draco Meteor and burn it. Palkia revenges it. Incredibly annoying though due to it's good coverage against my team.

Blaziken: A rookie chicken in Ubers?

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Swords Dancer: Giratina GG. Groudon beats it one-on-one. Palkia revenges. Lugia takes unboosted hits fairly well.

Excadrill: Finally, this thing is actually getting a lot of usage! Oh yeah, it is the best Gyarados partner too!

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Swords Dance Sweeper: Groudon and Giratina rapes this. Lugia can phaze. If the weather isn't sandstorm, Palkia can revenge.

Defensive Dancer: Groudon, Giratina again and now Palkia can roast it while surviving unboosted Earthquake easily. It can't really get past Giratina to spin anyway.

Non-Ubers

Blissey: I love these...

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Standard Ubers Wisher: Groudon, Giratina, Forretress. Groudon can always threaten it with Earthquake, Forretress gets some free layers. Giratina doesn't care about anything and can burn and phaze it out with Dragon Tail. Can be a bit annoying though but I have three phazers so it is hard for her to pass to the right teammates.

Chansey: More common in Ubers than in OU is quite surprising...

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Standard Blob: The lack of lefties actually made Chansey more vulnerable to my team LOL Chansey dies a lot faster to hazards compare to Blissey. Just annoy it with Forretress, Groudon and Giratina. My Blissey can also Toxic it to death, even if it has Heal Bell, it will die eventually because Toxic has more PP than Heal Bell.

Ferrothorn: The Steel type that surpassed Groudon in usage?

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Standard Spiker: Groudon Fire Blasts it. Palkia can blast it too, Giratina burns to make it die faster. Offensive Ferrothorn sucks. Even if it does exists, I have Giratina, Groudon and Lugia.

Forretress: I hate these, dropped in popularity though.

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Standard Ubers Spiker: Groudon roasts it like Eo destroys Iconic with the force of a million suns. However, I can't touch it outside of that. Palkia's Fire Blast is easy to abuse because the opponent can just switch in their Fire-type resist such as Kyogre. Giratina prevents any spinning but can't do much in return but a burn.

Garchomp: The forgotten Land Shark but can actually threaten teams with its dual STAB.

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Choice Scarf: Lugia walls it with Roost and Ice Beam it. If its not stucked on Outrage, Giratina rapes it. Groudon can do it too. Forretress sets up for free.

Choice Band: Lugia still walls it. Unless it tries to spam CB Stone Edge, Lugia can soak up almost anything. Groudon owns it, as can Giratina if I don't come in on Outrage. Forretress takes all Outrages like a champ and set up Spikes. Toxic Spikes makes its life even shorter.

Swords Dance: Lugia survives even +2 Stone Edge and can Ice Beam it. Groudon can survive any attack and Dragon Tail it. Giratina beats it one-on-one. Palkia can always revenge.

Jirachi: Cutie little pixie, awesome resistances, has a lot of potential in Ubers but Ferrothorn is still getting all the limelight as the premiere Steel-type.

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Wish Tank: Groudon, Giratina and Forretress destroys it. Giratina makes Iron Flinch impossible due to Pressure and immense bulk.

Choice Scarf: It can't do a thing to my team besides Tricking LOL!

Terrakion: A great attacker I guess since it beats slow Extremekiller Arceus.

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Choice Scarf: Lugia walls it since Stone Edge doesn't come close to KOing. Giratina is the best counter to it. Groudon owns it like this: Eo wrecks Iconic with the force of a thousand suns

Double Booster: Groudon and Giratina give it nightmares.

Tyranitar: Big bad tyrannosaurus

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Choice Band: Groudon destroys it. Giratina can burn and wall it. Lugia stalls out Stone Edge with Roost, hates Crunch though.

Lead:[/COLOR] Groudon rapes this way better than Eo destroys Iconic through and through.

Wobbuffet: Oh no it's Woba!

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Old Woba set: Forretress sets up on it. Toxic it and phaze around. I hate it trapping Palkia though.

Cresselia: The best Groudon counter in the game, but her usage is still extremely low...

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Great Wall 3rd version: Forretress and Blissey rapes this like Eo tears apart Iconic with sheer might. If it lacks Toxic, Lugia sets up on it. Giratina smacks her harder than Eo's Cacturne using Focus Punch.

Trick Room: Trick Room sucks in Ubers. Forretress, Groudon, Lugia, Giratina and Blissey can all abuse her.

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I am not really looking for much rates anyway but I just want to show Classic Stall still works very well in today's Ubers metagame. Also, I will end this RMT with Gyarados rules! Giratina sucks compare to Gyarados.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

Genius name. Whoever came up with that must be pretty awesome. EDIT: I meant the second part of it, dumb CM.

Not much to say; this team is pretty solid. Taunt users, especially combined with hazards, look slightly annoying, though. You might consider trying HP Ice over Volt Switch on Forry for Gliscor. It's gimmicky, but it also hits Rayquaza and Salamence, and I never saw much use in Volt Switch anyway. Mewtwo is the other threat, but as long as you take care to keep Giratina near full health, you should be good. Thanks for the shout-out. :p

 

[Snunch]

I think you should try using an Arceus-Ground instead of Groudon. It doesn't seem like you have much of a use for drought, and now you can use a water attack on Palkia if you want to. I'll leave the EVs up to you, but Arceus' much higher speed and special defense could really help against the taunters Eo mentioned while still countering pokemon like Terrakion. You could run SR / judgment / fire blast / recover, or you could shift SR over to Blissey and run Calm Mind, Roar, Ice Beam, etc. It's a very minor change though, so if Drought is more important than I realize then I can't suggest anything further. This team looks very meticulously crafted and you'd basically have to cteam it to have a shot.

 

[trickroom]

Eo is too awesome! I might use Hidden Power Ice since Gliscor is getting really common! I won't let Forretress stay in on Rayquaza though because most carry Overheat or Fire Blast. Yeah Volt Switch sucks, I was using it to OHKO Cloyster after the smash. The scouting sometimes helps though.

The Sun is really very important! It helps me deal with Manaphy and Kyogre to an extend. Boosting Tank Kyogre is annoying especially without Groudon. Also I want something to control the weather. This is very useful in Ubers.

Groudon can also annoy threats with Dragon Tail which is actually pretty important to wear down Giratina-O. Eo mentioned Stalltwo but it usually doesn't carry any attacks. Arceus-Ground's Fire Blast is actually weaker than Groudon's, so Gliscor actually takes more damage from Groudon than from Arceus.

Thanks for the rates though. Classic stall really needs Groudon. It also helps deal with Rain abusers better. Although all of them can't threaten my team, I love to control the weather. Groudon is also a bit stronger than Arceus.

 

[shrang]

Great team. Latias is still awesome btw. Just saying that Sub + NP Darkrai is still the bane of this team. Everything just flat out dies to it and the only thing you can do is phaze (which only extends your doomed existence). Blissey and Forretress are the only things that can take it, while Blissey gets slept and set up on, while Forry can't do anything back. All I'd suggest is just replace Volt Switch with Gyro Ball on Forretress so you can actually hurt the thing with Forretress and therefore it can't set up on you.

Have fun.

 

[ZoroDark]

You maybe should try out Eviolite Chansey over Blissey, because there are a lot of Uber teams that can't touch her.

 

[trickroom]

Set up Toxic Spikes and phaze it out. Darkrai will die next switch in. Also, I can pivot Giratina to take the Sleep. Lugia survives a +2 Dark Pulse btw and can phaze it out with Whirlwind even if you are behind a sub.

Also Groudon can break the sub while easily surviving Dark Pulse. Palkia can revenge after that. Palkia can also take a +2 Dark Pulse and OHKO it with Fire Blast, 2HKO if you are behind a sub.

Not going to use Chansey over Blissey. I already mentioned why in the analysis. What Chansey walls, Blissey can wall it too anyway.

 

[Colonel M]

Genius name. Whoever came up with that must be pretty awesome.

That would be me, though I have to actually thank Winston Churchill and my love of history for that. Though I didn't make the bath curtain one.

I'd actually think a little harder about Aura Sphere over Earth Power, though I guess both are fairly situational (and Aura Sphere attracts Wobbuffet more... which is bad enough of an idea).

I think the one thing you hate the most is combos, but to be fair the one I'm thinking of (anything with Wobbuffet in it to take out Palkia) gets a nice little nerf with Toxic seeping through it. I can't think much else otherwise, other than maybe just use Gyro Ball instead of Hidden Power Ice on Forretress.

Also thanks for the shoutout. ;/

 

[shrang]

I think the one thing you hate the most is combos, but to be fair the one I'm thinking of (anything with Wobbuffet in it to take out Palkia) gets a nice little nerf with Toxic seeping through it. I can't think much else otherwise, other than maybe just use Gyro Ball instead of Hidden Power Ice on Forretress.

Yea I agree with this. You already have Ice Beam on Lugia anyway. If Gliscor is outspeeding you, you can always just chuck some Speed EVs on it. Gyro Ball is more useful on Forretress, IMO.

 

[polop]

Absolutely awesome team you have their trickroom, however I have some huge questions for ya. How do you deal with Teams running Quick Stall? It seems that both Whimsicott and Stall Two run circles around the team since the former Burn + wall everything, and you cant touch Whimsicott (this is really humorous considering how it was left out of the threat list) since it sub seed trolls you.

I can't find a way to remove this threat aside by making the simple change of Groudon to Arceus Ground with Magic Coat, perish song, or by running a Swords Dance set that flat out trolls mewtwo lacking high speed investment (this does not fix the Whimsicott issue though sadly and heavily invested Mewtwo still plow through). You could use a Gira-o over Gira-a which when mixed actually has a chance of beating Mewtwo... but your introduction makes me sad of even suggesting the idea :( Did I mention I 3> Gira-a?

Also I don't get it I thought the Iron Curtain was that wall the Soviet Union made around Cold War time, nothing about Churchill. Might be wrong though.

EDIT: There's also a Sub CM Ogre weakness but meh way less major then the first too. Easily dealt with by placing Roar over WoW on Gira-a though which I strongly encourage.

EDIT 2: WAIT WHAT IS THIS YOUR EVS SPREADS ARE.... WHAT HAPPENED TO THAT 230 speed Gira-a -_-, I thought you Speed Creeped everything :(, do you realize I actually went and took the initiative of raising that on my own Gira-a by 8 more evs?

 

[trickroom]

Absolutely awesome team you have their trickroom, however I have some huge questions for ya. How do you deal with Teams running Quick Stall? It seems that both Whimsicott and Stall Two run circles around the team since the former Burn + wall everything, and you cant touch Whimsicott (this is really humorous considering how it was left out of the threat list) since it sub seed trolls you.

What can Stall Mewtwo do to my team? Burn? I can always switch in Giratina or Blissey. Giratina can just Dragon Tail it out. Forretress gets a free spin if you try to stay in. Whimsicott sucks, because 1) it cannot do a thing to Forretress, 2) Lugia + Giratina means you are running out of PP fast, 3) Palkia and Groudon OHKOes it. Leech Seed alone can't hurt the team much and I can just spin away the Spikes. Toxic Spikes also screws Whimsicott if the opponent lacks Tentacruel. Oh yeah Palkia can 2HKO Mewtwo with Fire Blast if it dares to switch in directly.

Not using Ground Arceus because it doesn't help me with anything save Zekrom. Whimsicott is not only rare but it cannot harm my team at all with Forretress around. Giratina-O gets burned and stalled out by Mewtwo. Giratina Dragon Tails it out and Rests off the burn.

Sub CM Ogre weakness? No, because Groudon is around. Also Lugia can Calm Mind alongside it and phaze it out. If it lacks Ice Beam, Blissey owns it in sun. Even if Kyogre gets one Calm Mind ahead of Lugia, Lugia is faster and can set up first, phazing next turn.

 

[polop]

24 WoW pp isn't running out that quickly :P. Something will get taken out and if a layer of hazards are up they will take their toll on the walls (I'm not even going into how unreliable spinning is in the current meta). If Toxic Spikes are up it doesn't even have to care about that and can start mindlessly Taunting things.

Whimsicott starts the endless sub seed cycle on you which can be a real troll with Toxic Spikes, you can't stop it until a big wall goes down. Sure Forry switches into it but the standard spinblockers for quick stall dont care about Forre at all and destroy it or force a switch. Not to mention quick stall almost always packs a poison type to gurantee 100% removal of tspikes.

Fine alone stall two and whimsicott arent bad but the Quick stall style is essentially "counter teaming without Heatran / Darkceus".

Sub CM Kyogre sets up CM's infront of blissey, Lugia doesnt like absorbing any of its moves, and Groudon can get Hydro Pumped / Ice Beamed into the face. It may force a one-time switch fueled by Groudon's death but Kyogre can come back in on Forretress and start setting up again, since it does nothing to threaten it and Lugia is OHKOed by +1 Hydro Pump, Ice Beam and Thunder. Blissey you say? Oh its subs arent broken, its set up fodder.

I guess Groundceus isnt the best option but I have a hard time thinking of counters.

 

[locoghoul]

Ho-Oh: Giratina walls it like Eo obliterating Iconic.

Not really. BB 3HKOs and your Dragon Tails don't break its sub. In fact, if SR are not on the field, Ho-Oh would be my number 1 switch against Giratina. Pressure rapes your Dragon Tail too. Trust me, you are better off with Lugia (if healthy enough). I think it's cool to see a non-rain stall team and I also think Blissey>Chansey (although I still hate both), but how do you do against a good rain stall team (assuming the player is also decent)? Having Tentacruel is an advantage in stall vs stall as your TS can disappear while he can still stack his (TS).

 

[trickroom]

and Lugia is OHKOed by +1 Hydro Pump, Ice Beam and Thunder

How can Lugia be OHKOed by Hydro Pump, and Ice Beam doesn't even come close? Did you even do you calculations right? Also Lugia can survive even better by Calm Minding ahead of Kyogre and phaze it out. Please don't tell me Sub Kyogre is using Life Orb. In sun Lugia laughs at you, Roost stalls out Ice Beam. Also wait...how come your Kyogre is using Hydro Pump, Thunder and Ice Beam and Calm Mind and Substitute! LOL.

Toxic Spikes doesn't harm my team much, if Whimsicott tries to spam Leech Seed, Forretress comes in and you have to either switch and risk me getting an extra layer or get spun. I don't know about you, but I get to abuse Whimsicott pretty easily.

You can't setup on Blissey for free because Seismic Toss will kill you eventually. In sun Hydro Pump is BS weak, also Kyogre uses Surf on Calm Mind sets. Since when is Hydro Pump used. Groudon survives unboosted Ice Beam or Hydro Pump easily. I can always switch in as you use Substitute or Calm Mind, not a problem at all.

Uh start the endless Sub Seed cycle? You will run out of PP before killing the team. It gives me free Spikes or a free spin if you Taunt Forretress.

Ho-Oh uses leftovers most of the time. If it does use Life Orb it dies fast anyway. BB also doesn't 3HKO all the time. SR + Dragon Tail = a dead Ho-Oh. Ho-Oh takes massive recoil damage from Brave Bird and Life Orb. So, if it tries to 3HKO me, it will be almost dead. You can't spin away SR with Giratina around. Lugia can always phaze it out if needed. I also mentioned Ho-Oh is hard to deal with, I might put Stone Edge on Groudon or Palkia.

Rain team is pretty easy to handle. Groudon scares away both Ferrothorn and Tentacruel, preventing their set ups. Scarf Kyogre is easily walled by the team anyway. Forretress foils both Ferrothorn and Skarmory. Tentacruel can't touch my team either because Giratina has an easy time with it. Once again, Toxic Spikes doesn't harm the team much. Also Tentacruel is more like a disadvantage in stall vs stall because it cannot set up Spikes nor touch Giratina.

 

[hamiltonion]

This is a really fantastic team like everyone said and it has the standard stall weaknesses (SubNP Darkrai, Dark Arceus and Heatran) but they are mostly rare and not quite seen. Although, you do ensure Darkrai will never really sweep you, it will pretty much take out / dent a couple of mons if it can come in especially if you for some reason lose Forretress. IF anything I really like the Forretress popularity, it seriously is awesome now that most Giratina-O dont run HP Fire anyway. But really fuck giratina I that thing. :( Nothing to rate, just a boss stall team.

 

[Tomahawk]

This is an extremely solid stall team, a couple of weaknesses like Mewtwo, Darkrai, and Dark Arceus, but in my opinion it's impossible to have no weakness with an Uber team. Scizor or Fighting Arceus could maybe fix it, but I don't think anything can be replaced. Chansey > Blissey is maybe an option to help against Reshiram, as Specs can really hurt this team thanks to the sun. Excellent team.

 

[alexwolf]

This is bullshit. How can Lugia be OHKOed by Hydro Pump, and Ice Beam doesn't even come close? Did you even do you calculations right? Also Lugia can survive even better by Calm Minding ahead of Kyogre and phaze it out. Please don't tell me Sub Kyogre is using Life Orb. In sun Lugia laughs at you, Roost stalls out Ice Beam. Also wait...how come your Kyogre is using Hydro Pump, Thunder and Ice Beam and Calm Mind and Substitute! LOL.

Toxic Spikes doesn't harm my team much, if Whimsicott tries to spam Leech Seed, Forretress comes in and you have to either switch and risk me getting an extra layer or get spun. I don't know about you, but I get to abuse Whimsicott pretty easily.

You can't setup on Blissey for free because Seismic Toss will kill you eventually. In sun Hydro Pump is BS weak, also Kyogre uses Surf on Calm Mind sets. Since when is Hydro Pump used. Groudon survives unboosted Ice Beam or Hydro Pump easily. I can always switch in as you use Substitute or Calm Mind, not a problem at all.

Uh start the endless Sub Seed cycle? You will run out of PP before killing the team. It gives me free Spikes or a free spin if you Taunt Forretress.

Ho-Oh uses leftovers most of the time. If it does use Life Orb it dies fast anyway. BB also doesn't 3HKO all the time. SR + Dragon Tail = a dead Ho-Oh. Ho-Oh takes massive recoil damage from Brave Bird and Life Orb. So, if it tries to 3HKO me, it will be almost dead. You can't spin away SR with Giratina around. Lugia can always phaze it out if needed. I also mentioned Ho-Oh is hard to deal with, I might put Stone Edge on Groudon or Palkia.

Rain team is pretty easy to handle. Groudon scares away both Ferrothorn and Tentacruel, preventing their set ups. Scarf Kyogre is easily walled by the team anyway. Forretress foils both Ferrothorn and Skarmory. Tentacruel can't touch my team either because Giratina has an easy time with it. Once again, Toxic Spikes doesn't harm the team much. Also Tentacruel is more like a disadvantage in stall vs stall because it cannot set up Spikes nor touch Giratina.

Although this is true sometimes, Cloyster does exist and can spin whenever it wants so you should take this in account. And i am not talking about defensive Cloyster, i am talking about the offensive one with Shell Smash and Rapid Spin instead of Rock Blast. Rock Blast in almost unneded since 4 HP Kyogre gets ohkoed after some prior damage from a +2 LO Icicicle Spear. Not saying it is common just something to consider, because it seems you are relying too much on SR to counter Ho-Oh.

 

[shrang]

Hm, just thinking, is Lugia really compulsory on a Classic Stall team? IIRC it used to be Groudon / Blissey / Giratina / Latias / Forretress / Filler, with Lugia as the filler most of the time, and you've replaced Latias with Palkia. Not saying there's anything wrong with your team, but have tried Rock Arceus over Lugia (yes, you know my Rock Arceus fetish)? It would certainly help with Reshiram and Ho-oh issues, as well as giving you a mildly offensive Pokemon that could potentially take on other stall teams?

 

[polop]

Although this is true sometimes, Cloyster does exist and can spin whenever it wants so you should take this in account. And i am not talking about defensive Cloyster, i am talking about the offensive one with Shell Smash and Rapid Spin instead of Rock Blast. Rock Blast in almost unneded since 4 HP Kyogre gets ohkoed after some prior damage from a +2 LO Icicicle Spear. Not saying it is common just something to consider, because it seems you are relying too much on SR to counter Ho-Oh.

He doesn't need SR to counter Ho-oh at all lol. Gira-a walls it to death. Variants with max atk lacking Life Orb almost fail to 4HKO and don't even 3HKO, making it easy for Gira-a to just Rest the damage of. THose that have LO barely 3HKO assuming a LOT of high rolls. If they do get that 3HKO they die of LO recoil.

This is bullshit. How can Lugia be OHKOed by Hydro Pump, and Ice Beam doesn't even come close? Did you even do you calculations right? Also Lugia can survive even better by Calm Minding ahead of Kyogre and phaze it out. Please don't tell me Sub Kyogre is using Life Orb. In sun Lugia laughs at you, Roost stalls out Ice Beam. Also wait...how come your Kyogre is using Hydro Pump, Thunder and Ice Beam and Calm Mind and Substitute! LOL.

OK I just realized I did max Defense calculations (lol). Still isn't making a large difference. It's OHKOed by + 1 HPump after Rocks. Sure you can CM the turn it uses it but then your left at around 20% hp left. Assuming no low rolls Lugia will be unable to roost stall the 4 remaining Hpump, and it fears BS Parahax anyway screwing it over lols. Why is Lugia coming in on all ogres anyway? If that is the way you normally deal with Ogres then its crippled if its Specs or Scarf. The idea is you switch in Palkia in horror that its a CM Variant (if blissey is switched in it CM's), the revenge killer / Specs Ogre counter goes down fighting it since it can't maim it enough after +2 SpD with Thunder. If you switch out turn 1 that CM is revealed with Palkia it gets another free CM which is more then enough to cripple the whole team with Hydro Pump and Ice Beam. Not only that at that point nothings safe. Lugia is OHKOed BY Hpump in rain and Ice Beam / Thunder with Rocks now, if it CM's it lives the first hit but goes down to the second even if it roosts. Giratina-a, Blissey, and Chansey is more set up for Calm Minds. Groudon cannot absorb Ice beams. Palkia can't revenge.

I referenced Ice Beam, Thunder, and Hpump since all of those attacks are slashed in with Sub CM. Ogre doesn't get 5 attacks -_- I know that.

Toxic Spikes doesn't harm my team much, if Whimsicott tries to spam Leech Seed, Forretress comes in and you have to either switch and risk me getting an extra layer or get spun. I don't know about you, but I get to abuse Whimsicott pretty easily.

Whimsicott starts the endless sub seed cycle on you which can be a real troll with Toxic Spikes, you can't stop it until a big wall goes down. Sure Forry switches into it but the standard spinblockers for quick stall dont care about Forre at all and destroy it or force a switch. Not to mention quick stall almost always packs a poison type to gurantee 100% removal of tspikes.

Fine alone stall two and whimsicott arent bad but the Quick stall style is essentially "counter teaming without Heatran / Darkceus"

You can't setup on Blissey for free because Seismic Toss will kill you eventually. In sun Hydro Pump is BS weak, also Kyogre uses Surf on Calm Mind sets. Since when is Hydro Pump used. Groudon survives unboosted Ice Beam or Hydro Pump easily. I can always switch in as you use Substitute or Calm Mind, not a problem at all.

Sub CM Ogre makes 101 subs :P, WAIT WHAT KYOGRE USES SURF (if Hpump isn't slashed later I'll eat a pie) ON CM SETS? YOU MEAN TO TELL ME I've been trolling? I forgot you trolled me with predictions before so I'm not going to say anything about the last thing...

Also this team could use a Xatu to deal with Quick stall, the question IS over what? I wanna say Lugia since it doesn't wall anything the rest of the team walls but you'll probs get mad at me for that :(.

 

[locoghoul]

He doesn't need SR to counter Ho-oh at all lol. Gira-a walls it to death. Variants with max atk lacking Life Orb almost fail to 4HKO and don't even 3HKO, making it easy for Gira-a to just Rest the damage of. THose that have LO barely 3HKO assuming a LOT of high rolls. If they do get that 3HKO they die of LO recoil.

Get into the ladder and try to use that Gira set against my max Atk LO Ho-Oh and see if you can "wall me to death".

Calcs say it does 35.3% - 41.7%. How is that "almost fail to 4HKO". Really if you haven't come across a decent (and by decent I mean not an idiot) Ho-Oh player your opinion doesn't matter. With no SR, there is nothing Giratina can do to Ho-Oh, nothing. Dragon Tail doesn't break subs, Ho-Oh outspeeds (even if he didn't, DT has negative priority) and if he 3HKOs Giratina he doesn't kill himself from LO and recoil. I've done this several times before and I can prove you wrong if you want to (I can give you links to replays too). All you have to do is make Gira rest while you roost behind a sub and then just hit the Brave Bird button 3 times. I don't even have to kill it, hell it gets stalled out of DT pretty fast.

At least Lugia can Whirlwind it.

 

[trickroom]

Hm, just thinking, is Lugia really compulsory on a Classic Stall team? IIRC it used to be Groudon / Blissey / Giratina / Latias / Forretress / Filler, with Lugia as the filler most of the time, and you've replaced Latias with Palkia. Not saying there's anything wrong with your team, but have tried Rock Arceus over Lugia (yes, you know my Rock Arceus fetish)? It would certainly help with Reshiram and Ho-oh issues, as well as giving you a mildly offensive Pokemon that could potentially take on other stall teams?

I think Lugia is compulsory to Classic Stall because it fits in well with his ability to phaze away many threats. Sure Rock Arceus can phaze too but Lugia has leftovers and Pressure which can be a huge bonus actually.

Some people say Lugia fits in the filler slot because they thought Lugia sucks but honestly I can tell you Lugia is one of the most important member especially when facing offensive teams.

Rock Arceus makes me lose my Ground-type immune. Stall teams now like to carry Kyogre, Tentacruel, Ferrothorn anyway so Rock Arceus is unlikely to sweep.

Get into the ladder and try to use that Gira set against my max Atk LO Ho-Oh and see if you can "wall me to death".

This isn't the place to argue whether Giratina walls Ho-Oh to death, post that in the Giratina or Ho-Oh discussion thread.

it fears BS Parahax anyway screwing it over lols. Why is Lugia coming in on all ogres anyway?

I will switch in Lugia if Kyogre uses Substitute. Like I said, Groudon can always switch in the turn you set up a Sub or Calm Mind. Stop arguing Sub Kyogre breaks the team because the chances of it doing so is slim. Groudon isn't even close to getting OHKOed by +0 Ice Beam, and Blissey can just Wish pass to it later.

Also this team could use a Xatu to deal with Quick stall, the question IS over what?

This team has no problems with Quick Stall why should I add in Xatu? Also, I am NEVER replacing Lugia with a lousy Xatu.

Although this is true sometimes, Cloyster does exist and can spin whenever it wants so you should take this in account. And i am not talking about defensive Cloyster, i am talking about the offensive one with Shell Smash and Rapid Spin instead of Rock Blast. Rock Blast in almost unneded since 4 HP Kyogre gets ohkoed after some prior damage from a +2 LO Icicicle Spear. Not saying it is common just something to consider, because it seems you are relying too much on SR to counter Ho-Oh.

Since when is Shell Smash Cloyster paired with Ho-Oh? Think carefully before you post. Also Cloyster can't smash and spin at the same time. Cloyster has to use Rock Blast. Using Rapid Spin is lame after you smashed. I never said Ho-Oh is easy to handle, did you even read properly? I can just switch in Forretress to KO Cloyster and set up Stealth Rock later in the game. Ho-Oh must have Life Orb or it can't do a thing to Giratina. I can always waste Sacred Fire PP with Giratina. Once out of Sacred Fire, Lugia owns it.

This is an extremely solid stall team, a couple of weaknesses like Mewtwo, Darkrai, and Dark Arceus, but in my opinion it's impossible to have no weakness with an Uber team. Scizor or Fighting Arceus could maybe fix it, but I don't think anything can be replaced.

Darkrai is owned by Palkia or Toxic Spikes. It can never setup for free. Mewtwo is kept in check by Lugia, Giratina and Palkia. That's close enough as checks you can get. Scizor and Fighting Arceus sucks in Classic stall.

 

[alexwolf]

He doesn't need SR to counter Ho-oh at all lol. Gira-a walls it to death. Variants with max atk lacking Life Orb almost fail to 4HKO and don't even 3HKO, making it easy for Gira-a to just Rest the damage of. THose that have LO barely 3HKO assuming a LOT of high rolls. If they do get that 3HKO they die of LO recoil..

As showed by locoghoul, Giratina-A is always 3hkoed after SR by Brave Bird. This along with the fact that Giratina-A cannot break Ho-Oh's subs with D-Tail means that SR is indeed the best measure against LO Ho-Oh.

Since when is Shell Smash Cloyster paired with Ho-Oh? Think carefully before you post. Also Cloyster can't smash and spin at the same time. Cloyster has to use Rock Blast. Using Rapid Spin is lame after you smashed. I never said Ho-Oh is easy to handle, did you even read properly? I can just switch in Forretress to KO Cloyster and set up Stealth Rock later in the game. Ho-Oh must have Life Orb or it can't do a thing to Giratina. I can always waste Sacred Fire PP with Giratina. Once out of Sacred Fire, Lugia owns it.

First of all you should learn some manners. People post RMTs to accept criticism, not to be arrogant and rude. Noone here has been rude with you yet you did against many people including me. May i ask why all this tension?

Now on to your comments. Cloyster can be used in a none rain team. In fact if used alongside Groudon, Cloyster can easily run HP Fire to get past Forretress to destroy many stall teams like yours once it sets up.
Cloyster runs Rock Blast most of the times but it can run Rapid Spin (i have a team that was constantly at the top 10 of the Ubers ladder using Shell Smash Rapid Spin Cloyster), since 4 HP Kyogre loses 75% minimum from a +2 LO Icicle Spear(which is a ohko after SR + Spikes) and Tentacruel is ohkoed from the same attack after SR. I already said Rapid Spin is rare.
Also i never said that Cloyster will Shell Smash and Rapid Spin at the same time. But it can easily 2hko your Giratina while outspeeding her, which means that if Cloyster wants to Rapid Spin there is nothing you can do about it.
I know that Ho-Oh must have LO to be a threat and i never said that you cannot play around Rapid Spin Cloyster. I just mentioned how Cloyster can spin against Giratina, thus allowing opposing Ho-Oh to come in easier and pose a threat to you if it is a LO variant.
Finally before telling me to think carefully before i post, or simply ignoring my comments because these sets are rare, you should read more carefully to see that i have already said this. When starting my comment i clearly said that this Cloyster is rare. So why do you have to continue with comments like ''Closyter always runs Rock Blast'' etc?

Anyway this is a very solid team but you should work a lot in your attitude. I hope that my post will not get censored for me being rude, because you have been way more....

 

[Koinzell]

You might want to use a Relaxed nature on Groudon, with Impish you don't OHKO SDef Ferrothorn with Sun boosted Fire Blast, which is kinda lame.

If you don't want to lower your speed just use Fire Punch over Fire Blast, the Gliscor issue can be solved by using Roar over Dragon Tail on the same Groudon. Roar also helps against Ho-Oh, I suppose you are tired of hearing it, but yeah, your team is extremely weak to Sub/Roost Ho-Oh at the moment.

The team looks quite weak to STAB Ice moves in general. Cloyster can't setup on anything on your team, but if it's paired with Wobbuffet you have a huge problem. The logical solution would be Arceus-Ghost over Giratina, but you made the team to enhance Giratina, so nevermind ... Maybe an Arceus form over Lugia ?

Good luck.

 

[alexwolf]

You might want to use a Relaxed nature on Groudon, with Impish you don't OHKO SDef Ferrothorn with Sun boosted Fire Blast, which is kinda lame.

If you don't want to lower your speed just use Fire Punch over Fire Blast, the Gliscor issue can be solved by using Roar over Dragon Tail on the same Groudon. Roar also helps against Ho-Oh, I suppose you are tired of hearing it, but yeah, your team is extremely weak to Sub/Roost Ho-Oh at the moment.

The team looks quite weak to STAB Ice moves in general. Cloyster can't setup on anything on your team, but if it's paired with Wobbuffet you have a huge problem. The logical solution would be Arceus-Ghost over Giratina, but you made the team to enhance Giratina, so nevermind ... Maybe an Arceus form over Lugia ?

Good luck.

Cloyster can setup on Blissey and Forretress. Although Toxic damage will kill it after a few turns it will kill 2-3 memers till it goes down...

 

[ToF]

trickroom isn't overestimating his ability to handle threats, but is surely overestimating his ability to beat any quickspiking team with tentacruel, since you know once the toxic spikes go up you're gonna be hell-pressed to win any game. ubers is an entirely hazard-based metagame anyway, and the fact that spinning is damn near impossible means that any full hazard team with tentacruel will cause difficulty for you cause of the fact that you can't get up the critical tspikes that help against opposing stall. annoying but manageable i guess.