Berry Juice

[macle]

One of the most unique bans in littlecup is the ban on the item Berry Juice. Berry Juice heals 20 HP for the user. It's currently banned but should it be?

With the rise of evolite and the downfall of oran berry, would berry juice get any use? I imagine it would be used on eggy and other harvest mons but would anyone opt to use it for evolite?

The council will be talking about the ban soon but I would like to see the community's thoughts.

 

[iss]

Personally, I feel as if Berry Juice would have an impact on the metagame, but not an incredibly huge one. Currently, many top defensive Pokemon, such as Gligar, Porygon, and Staryu, have recovery of their own. These Pokemon would most likely continue to use Eviolite even if Berry Juice was unbanned. However, the main problem I forsee with unbanning Berry Juice would be a huge increase in sweepers. Pokemon such as offensive Gligar and Scraggy would no longer have to worry about being cleaned up by one or two priority attacks, as they could take a hit while setting up, heal off the damage with Berry Juice, and proceed to sweep. Many sweepers are already very very strong, so teams would have to prepare much more for a select few sweepers--therefore making them weaker against non-offensive teams.

However, an upside of unbanning Berry Juice would be the return of some bulkier Pokemon. Munchlax would very much enjoy Berry Juice, as it is one of the few Pokemon that will get the full effect of Berry Juice most of the time. I can't think of any other Pokemon that benefit much more greatly from Berry Juice rather than Oran Berry, but I'm sure they exist. Oran Berry itself has gone from one of the most used items to one of the least used items. This feels rather odd, but Eviolite is better in almost every circumstance. Unbanning Berry Juice would give Pokemon another option, as practically everything now holds Eviolite, Choice Scarf, or Life Orb. Perhaps adding this extra dimension would lower centralization--which is not a problem per se for the metagame but certainly extremely hard to remove.

Basically, I think Berry Juice is worth a try, but the boost it will give to sweepers will probably be too big as opposed to the boost it would give to defensive Pokemon.

By the way, Harvest does not return Berry Juice. It is absurd to think that Berry Juice would lengthen battles, as it is a one-use item. Berry Juice would actually promote sweepers, which would therefore make battles shorter. Exeggcute would not be buffed by Berry Juice being unbanned.

 

[(makeup)]

DO NOT UNBAN BERRY JUICE

First of all, there are a ton of Pokemon with Sturdy that can abuse Berry Juice a ton (Tirtouga and Dwebble can set up TWICE for example, and Magnemite can keep recycling it.) I don't really see what unbanning it would do other than making the metagame really annoying with Pokemon stalling. Seriously, why are we even considering it? Fully healing a Pokemon or almost fully healing it is way too defensive; we don't want Little Cup to become a stall war, do we?

I'm not going to make a thousand paragraph post on why Berry Juice should stay unbanned, as I think what I posted above explains how extremely bad of a change it'll be. Keep it banned...

 

[iss]

First of all, there are a ton of Pokemon with Sturdy that can abuse Berry Juice a ton (Tirtouga and Dwebble can set up TWICE for example, and Magnemite can keep recycling it.)

Entry hazards? Tirtouga and Dwebble aren't really going to Shell Smash twice anyways, and you should have Fake Out to neutralize Sturdy in case of emergency anyways. Recycle could be an issue, but it is such a specific case that I highly doubt it would be an issue even if Berry Juice was unbanned.

don't really see what unbanning it would do other than making the metagame really annoying with Pokemon stalling. Seriously, why are we even considering it? Fully healing a Pokemon or almost fully healing it is way too defensive; we don't want Little Cup to become a stall war, do we?

How does Berry Juice promote stalling AT ALL? Berry Juice is a one-use item, so in longer battles Eviolite will actually have a huge advantage over Berry Juice. It's not infinite-use, unless you're talking about Recycle, which is a rare case. It'll probably be used on sweepers, not defensive Pokemon...

 

[Furai]

I'm with Charmander on this one; Oran Berry Dwebble is annoying enough to handle, now adding to it Berry Juice?

Gligar, Scraggy, and more would just abuse this, and when you will finally reach the low amount of HP needed to revenge kill with a Choice Scarf user or a priority move, the foe gets his entire HP back. I would fucking shoot my computer.


Just like Dragon Rage taking down all of the foe's health being broken, Berry Juice does the opposite, thus making it far too broken for Little Cup.

 

[(makeup)]

How does Berry Juice promote stalling AT ALL? Berry Juice is a one-use item, so in longer battles Eviolite will actually have a huge advantage over Berry Juice. It's not infinite-use, unless you're talking about Recycle, which is a rare case. It'll probably be used on sweepers, not defensive Pokemon...

Pokemon can use different moves to stall with Berry Juice (Substitute and Endure are good examples). Don't tell me Recycle is a rare case, because its usage without Berry Juice is in no way a factor in estimating its usage with it.

edit: To the below, Tirtouga can just run Protect to avoid Fake Out. It doesn't need Aqua Jet when it has Berry Juice. Additionally, saying a Pokemon is bad because it has a check isn't a good argument.

 

[Ray Jay]

Berry Juice would make early game a whole lot more interesting. For example, you see Dwebble's in their slot one. You have to choose who you lead with, and if you choose wrong, life's gonna suck. This, in turn, actually makes hazards Dwebble more viable since most people will be hyping SS so hard, but that's a different story I guess.

Tirtouga, if it's using Berry Juice, is not using Splash Plate. In other words, even if the opponent successfully clears hazards off the field and gets Tirtouga in scott-free, then my Mienfoo still has the advantage if I carry Fake Out. For example, whatever's out currently, let's say 60% HP Porygon, can just bring it down to its sturdy; Tirtouga then gets the Berry Juice recovery. Now, Tirtouga has to make a choice; it can KO Porygon, meaning Mienfoo can come in and use Fake Out + Drain Punch to take it out (since only at +2 without Splash Plate, Aqua Tail will not kill), or it can set up another Shell Smash, which means after Porygon uses Charge Beam, Tirtouga dies to Mienfoo's Fake Out.

Overall, people are saying "it will be a more defensive metagame." This is true for a few Pokemon but not for the metagame as a whole. Someone mentioned Munchlax having increased viability, this is true since it can already sponge hits from Misdreavus and other specially based sweepers without Eviolite. It also has such good coverage (Ice Punch, Pursuit, Fire Punch, and of course Frustration) that it would greatly benefit OFFENSIVELY from not having to run RestTalk. It also increases the viability of that Whirlwind Curse set.

Finally, many more things already should be using Eviolite. What does this do? It does not decrease, rather, it INCREASES the number of viable Pokemon. Pokemon that use Eviolite already are unchanged; on the other hand, something such as Paras (bad example, I know) now have increased viability since it can almost take a hit and use Spore. There are tons of short term, set up Pokemon that right now can't do much, but could have a chance to thrive if Berry Juice returned. Is this overcentralizing? Probably not, since there are already a bunch of priority / super fast choice Scarf users in the metagame anyways.

 

[iss]

Agreeing with everything Ray Jay said, in addition to my earlier post.

 

[danilo]

Agreeing with iss agreeing with RayJay. I don't think it'll be broken. But if it is broken, it'll be the most broken thing we've ever seen in a while.

 

[SkyNet]

The vague memories I have of the 4th gen Berry Juice metagame wasn't that great, Every team had the same template, Duel screener + Dragon dance pokemon. didn't we reach a point where ~7 different pokemon where considered too powerful for the metagame.

My personal opinion is even with bulky evolite pokemon, I still do believe there will be a great number of pokemon that will be considered too strong for this metagame.

Maybe having a closed test, or even include Berry Juice into a team bat could be a good way to gain some info to what we are dealing with here.

 

[DTC]

I doubt the unbanning of Berry Juice will be that big of a deal in LC. Yeah, Dwebble, Tirtouga, and other sturdy Pokemon can get up to full health when you attack them so they have 2 extra turns, but if they have a Berry Juice, why would you use your strongest attacks on them? Use a weak attack that makes it lose almost 50% of its health, then attack it with the attack you'd usually use. Fake Out is a great example of this, and running Protect just to block Fake Out seems kind of silly for a Pokemon that resists it, especially if you're getting rid of an important move. You could also use Knock Off to get passed Berry Juice on Sturdy Pokemon.

Recycle Pokemon are the next potentially dangerous Pokemon if Berry Juice is unbanned. Let's take a quick look at the Pokemon with Recycle in LC:

Recycle users

Abra
Baltoy
Bronzor
Chingling
Clefairy
Drifloon
Drowzee
Happinny
Igglybuff
Magnemite
Mime Jr.
Munchlax
Panpour
Pansage
Pansear
Porygon
Ralts
Slowpoke
Smoochum
Spoink
Staryu
Trubbish

Out of that list, here are the viable Pokemon: Abra, Bronzor, Drifloon, Magnemite, Munchlax, Porygon, Smoochum, Staryu.

Abra can barely take a hit and should be using LO/Focus Sash. Bronzor could use it effectively; however, without Eviolite, it is easier to KO, and it also has to find room in its moveslots for Recycle. (It'd be very useful if you don't need SR, though.) It definitely wouldn't be broken, it'd simply make Bronzor more effective if you don't need another SR user but you need a reliable Gligar counter. Drifloon probably wouldn't use Recycle, but Berry Juice would be useful for Sub CM sets. Magnemite already has issues with its moveslots as it is, and it can't do that much other than trap steels because it's pretty frail. Munchlax would love Berry Juice in LC, and it'd greatly help it. It's still vulnerable to the more common physical threats, it'd just be a lot more effective as it doesn't have to use RestTalk for recovery. Slowpoke, Staryu, and Porygon already has a recovery move and forgoing Eviolite for Berry Juice makes them easier to OHKO.

Then, there is the non Sturdy and non Recycle Pokemon that could potentially use Berry Juice effectively. Scraggy, Drifloon, Exeggcute and Lickitung are examples of this. None of them would be that much better with Berry Juice, they'd simply be more effective.

So basically, unbanning Berry Juice would make a few set-up sweepers and walls/tanks without recovery more viable. I don't see this as a bad thing, and I like the idea of there being more set-up sweepers in LC because as of now, the only common ones are Gligar, Scraggy, Misdreavus, and Porygon. I think Berry Juice definitely deserves a test.

 

[spuds4ever]

While berry juice will without a doubt cause some rage, I think it could benefit the metagame to break away from this monotonous bulky offense. The only things it will really affect would be munchlax, sturdy things, and the odd lucky sweeper who survives with a little HP, but for reliability, I imagine most would opt for life orb or eviolite anyway.

Entry hazards would become significantly more important, both to keep them off on the offensive side, and to keep them on on the defensive side.

As for recycle users, yes, full turn recovery is very dandy, but it comes at the sacrifice of eviolite, a tricky choice I think on something like staryu though for something like bronzor, it would be very beneficial for keeping threats like gligar under control.

On the down side, I think luck plays a large enough part already in the tier, with 19 speed tier being very much larger and common now, speed ties are much more frequently game-decisive than in other tiers, now damage rolls would be extremely important too, an all or nothing situation, potentially meaning a game won or lost.

I don't think it would hurt to test it out though. Good suggestion, macle.

 

[Methmite]

I wasnt around when in gen 4 when this was around - so take my input with a grain of salt.

something about the entire meta game having ~20 hp and then having an item that restores 20hp just seems broken. I get that you have to live and all that, and that without eviolite; living is much harder. But just the idea seems really gross and broken. I have no real argument as to why it shouldnt be banned; but I'm not totally for it being unbanned neither.

Rayjay / iss / sir put it best. If it is broken, its going to be *broken*

 

[fatty]

i don't see how this would break the meta at all. even with the implement of berry juice, i'm willing to bet eviolite would still be the #1 used item just because of the tremendous bulk it provides to every lc mon. pokemon with reliable recovery should never use berry juice coz +1/+1 defenses AND recovery is too good to pass up. set up sweepers would be hard pressed to give up this bulk as well, as, for example, scraggy with +1/+1 defenses and offense / speed in conjuction with drain punch is a hell of a lot more scary than reg defenses and a one time full heal. a lot of the reason why set up sweepers are so good in bw is because they can actually take a hit and proceed to sweep. with berry juice, while they do pretty much get 2 lives, so to speak, they run the risk of being ohko'd a lot easier by all the new offensive threats. the only impact i see this having is giving better niches to mons with sturdy, harvest, or something of the sort. i feel like unbanning berry juice would add a bit of diversity to the meta, helping players break from the standard ou mons such as missy, gligar, scraggy, and krow. in turn, i would like to think that this would make the metagame more enjoyable than it already is, and because of this i'm all for it.

also, as for recycle, the only good users of that strat seem to be munchy, magnemite, and bronzor. i will never be convinced that these mons are broken in bw, even with that. hell, scraggy destroys every one.

 

[comatthew6]

Berry Juice would definitely impact the metagame, as it would most help the Pokemon without access to instant recovery, aka Hippopotas, Lileep, Slowpoke (anyone still use that?) and Murkrow and Gligar or w/e. However, Berry Juice + Recycle Bronzor would just get that much more unbreakable because barely anything can OHKO it without some sort of boost, and being able to pretty much fully replenish its HP 17 times is going to be quite annoying. In addition, the Sturdy Shell Smashers (Dwebble and Tirtouga) can pretty much be put in the lead slot as to avoid any potential entry hazard damage, use Shell Smash, and rape face as the other person would essentially have to kill them twice because with minimum HP they can both go down to 1 HP, then Berry Juice back up to full health (would Sturdy go again? idk). Croagunk a problem? Fine. Use Wynaut, which can now heal 20 HP instead of 10. Berry Juice was banned ever since Little Cup was invented (iirc) becuase it would provide too much help to Pokemon that now could be broken. It's pretty much saying, "If you can't kill me in one shot, now you have to kill me twice". And if you're using a weaker move to not trigger Berry Juice to make sure the next one will KO, you will be running a huge risk in believing your opponent will set up instead of attacking.

 

[Ray Jay]

Why is Hippopotas using Berry Juice? It has reliable recovery. Same goes for Lileep; both need Eviolite to take a boosted hit from Scraggy and Gligar, respectively. The problem with Recycle Bronzor is that you've now given up a moveslot, so you will likely either a.) lose to a crit somewhere or b.) get in a pp stall war with something that is immune to toxic or has Substitute. Also, I don't think I would use Bronzor without Eviolite because it loses a lot of utility in checking Swords Dance + Substitute Gligar (basically with any previous damage, you will not be taking a +2 Flight Gem Acrobatics; Bronzor's current niche in the meta is being able to do just that). Other than that, the Study Smashers are the most relevant, but putting them in the lead slot is not the solution. Lileep and Ferroseed are both pretty common and can still take out Tirtouga with Toxic / Leech Seed + Energy Ball / Bullet Seed, while Fake Out users hamper both Tirtouga and Dwebble. Dwebble also lacks priority, and at -2, it's not taking Sucker Punches well at all.

 

[Heysup]

No offense to everyone in the thread but most arguments I've read here are out of scope for Berry Juice's brokeness (ie. defensive Pokemon, Recycle, etc) or are severely underestimating of the effects being shot up to full HP after a boost.

In little cup, the only real ways to beat down set-up Pokemon is through very fast Scarfers, priority or (new to gen 5...) immensely bulky Eviolite users. If I'm Omanyte, I use Shell Smash, I'm taking a hit, probably losing 60-70% at the very least. I'm now low enough for almost anything that isn't relying on a weak Quick Attack or Ice Shard to KO me but I can sweep if you don't have anything to take the hit or priority.

Now imagine what it's like when all of those methods are made useless. If you don't OHKO a Pokemon, you automatically 3-4HKO it. There are no 2HKOes anymore. Your Frillish can't even reliably take out Omanyte with Surf (has something like a 6.25% to KO) and it can 2HKO you easily. I'll give you even scarier examples, lets start with Bagon. It's scary to think about how only crazy powerful Pokemon such as Flight Gem boosted Acrobatics Gligar can even come close to OHKOing Bagon, meaning you otherwise let Bagon get 2 Dragon Dances. Dratini has similar bulk on the special side and has access to fucking ExtremeSpeed.....not even priority can help after 2 Dragon Dances. How about not being able to do anything with Frillish while Misdreavus sets up an absolutely free Nasty Plot while retaining it's 100% HP. Have you ever tried to OHKO Misdreavus...? Even Stunky loses because you can 2HKO him with Shadow Ball -> HP Fighting and avoid Berry Juice or straight up OHKO him with Hidden Power Ground (why it's not as useful on defensive Pokemon).

I have yet to reveal the most devastating strategy for use with Berry Juice too, if you aren't familiar with it. I'm sure someone will come up with a list of calcs of relevant set up Pokemon that are OHKOed. Then you go on the ladder, see an Abra.

"What's this Abra going to do...."

Turn 1 Reflect, Turn 2 Light Screen. Turn 3 go to Bagon, Turn 4 "LOL didn't you see my Bronzor" while he sets up a DD. Turn 5 you HP Ice and realize that it 5HKOes, get gets another DD. Turn 6 you HP Ice again, he's now at full HP and +3. If you use Berry Juice you get OHKOed 100% of the time right here, if you use Eviolite you have a good chance to survive so he Dragon Dances again and with at worst ~60% of his HP left it can now outpace and OHKO almost every Pokemon in the metagame with Fire Fang, Dragon Claw, and <filler/Substitute> while only being touched by Ice Shards that still don't even KO.

Now imagine Dratini who takes even less from HP Ice and can't be stopped by priority.

Another thing that is not being considered is the use of Encore users. You can't always choose whether or not you get the right Pokemon out to OHKO another Pokemon. (ehem) Back in the day, you go to Wynaut or even just sacrifice something then bam you have Krabby with +2Atk+2Speed and still full HP....and you win just like that.

tl;dr stop underestimating Berry Juice.

 

[spuds4ever]

I think the trade-off is fair to be honest, heysup. Having berry juice means you can't have eviolite, making setting up harder in the first place. The main problem I see is sturdy sweepers such as tirtouga and dwebble which, if they see no priority in your team, can set up twice and 6-0 if you don't have mach or sucker punch for priority or just once and be at full health to kill your only priority user with one boost.

Also, dual screens is harder to pull off in LC than any other meta game in my opinion, partly because of so many threats, but also that you have to sacrifice your hold item, making you much less bulky, to make them effective so if you let him set up dual screens just like that as heysup said and they have a powerful set-up sweeper, then you'll probably lose anyway, berry juice or not. And any good player would toxic the set-up sweeper if they have dual-screens up with bronzor and if berry juice became popular, then no doubt toxic would too. And a flight gem boosted acrobatics always OHKOes bagon when it's not carrying eviolite presuming it's not got an insane defensive investment.

I'd be happy to test this so long as we banned its use alongside sturdy.

 

[Heysup]

I think the trade-off is fair to be honest, heysup. Having berry juice means you can't have eviolite, making setting up harder in the first place. The main problem I see is sturdy sweepers such as tirtouga and dwebble which, if they see no priority in your team, can set up twice and 6-0 if you don't have mach or sucker punch for priority or just once and be at full health to kill your only priority user with one boost.

This is way too dismissive of the actual hard numbers involved. Eviolite scales on defensiveness, so a high HP high (SpD /) Def will get the same multiplier but a different overall boost then (for example) our 21 HP 13 Def Bagon. Where as Berry Juice nearly doubles most offensive Pokemon's HP straight up. Are you honestly going to try and argue that 21 HP 19 Def is harder to break through than 41 HP 13 def? As long as it doesn't prevent any OHKOes, it's not even remotely close. Now obviously there are going to be scenarios in which that does matter, but if you look at the top couple Pokemon you'll be able to quickly draw the conclusion that it's actually not that easy to OHKO even a "frail" Pokemon such as Bagon, especially since the game now revolves around bulky Pokemon who can take a +1 hit being able to actually check these Pokemon rather than always forcing a revenge kill OR stopping set up with an onslaught of offense (if you remember Gen 4 LC, that's what it was).

Think about how much more the metagame has evolved since then in favor of Berry Juice set up sweepers. It doesn't matter if Bagon has sturdy, you can't OHKO it with your defensive Frillish because it gets 3HKOed (without Screens) and you're now dealing with a +3 full HP or +4 low HP Bagon who can without a doubt OHKO your entire team.

Also, dual screens is harder to pull off in LC than any other meta game in my opinion, partly because of so many threats, but also that you have to sacrifice your hold item, making you much less bulky, to make them effective so if you let him set up dual screens just like that as heysup said and they have a powerful set-up sweeper, then you'll probably lose anyway, berry juice or not.

You'd be surprised.....Light Screen and Reflect halve damage and even Abra won't be OHKOed (or even 2HKOed) by shit like Gyro Ball from Ferroseed or Bronzor. This is especially true when you consider the amount of set up leads there are and how effective you can be at just shutting them down while keeping screens up.

And any good player would toxic the set-up sweeper if they have dual-screens up with bronzor and if berry juice became popular, then no doubt toxic would too. And a flight gem boosted acrobatics always OHKOes bagon when it's not carrying eviolite presuming it's not got an insane defensive investment.

....because every good player has Toxic on every single one of their Pokemon in addition to having no Pokemon slower than the set up sweepers (since many / most of them carry Substitute). Not to mention that...well...that idea kind of sucks in the first place. If you think you can wait for a +2/+2 Krabby (for example) to die from Toxic without spamming Substitute (and using your own Berry Juice, I may add) then this discussion won't go too far.

The Pokemon with Sturdy aren't even the ones that scare me.

 

[prem]

i would say keep berry juice broken. offensive pokemon become really impossible to kill without OHKOing it, and with eviolite that is significantly harder. sturdy mons with shellsmash are really fucking broken, playing a few games with em the game was practically get the smasher in set up keep sturdy and win the game. sub mons like missy or sand veil gligar would be impossible to beat especially if they get a miss (for missy my attack just missed). bronzor isnt really a threat imo because even if it never dies its never doing anything back.

also setting up screens isnt very difficult in this meta, its just not used because no one tries to really.

 

[Ray Jay]

I think the big thing is that offensive Pokemon with Berry Juice become imbalanced (slightly better, if you will) but not broken. I played a game a while back using Berry Juice on my hazards Dwebble, and it got what, one more layer of hazards up than normal? This was neutered by the fact that everyone *had* to run Staryu in order to get their Sturdy sweeper safely in and blah blah blah.

Heysup's point about 2HKOs becoming 3 or even 4HKOs applies, but it also applies to Eviolite. There are more than a few would-be 2HKOs (especially in the case of mons with super offensive stats, such as Ponyta) that become 3HKOs or 4HKOs when the opposition has Eviolite. Does that mean Eviolite is broken? No, it just means Eviolite lessens the foe's offensive presence. Berry Juice is basically a counterpart to Eviolite; instead of lessening the foe's offensive presence, it helps the user's HP presence. To put it simply, an attack hits for the same damage whether the target has Berry Juice or not. However, provided the attack does not OHKO, the target can take more of these attacks with Berry Juice. Eviolite's useful in that it can prevent certain OHKOs.

In other words, I feel that the Berry Juice argument only gets dicey when one considers set up sweepers. IE, Tirtouga with Berry Juice is not only scary, but demanding for the team (your team now NEEDS a spinner, which, in this meta, means Staryu) and demanding for the opposition (the opponent now needs hazards and a spinblocker in order to keep Tirtouga off the field for longer).

The question here is not if Berry Juice is broken, by itself, arguing Berry Juice is broken is like arguing Eviolite is broken because it makes Scraggy too much of a threat.

The question is what does Berry Juice break? In my personal experience, I think Heysup's numbers apparently argue that Berry Juice breaks offensive Pokemon, especially those with a set up move that have enough bulk to take an attack, and even more the Sturdy Smashers. In my experience, most offensive Pokemon apart from the Shell Smashers are not broken after one turn of set up. For example, Scraggy after one turn of set up is honestly not that scary; it would always still use Eviolite. Misdreavus after one turn of set up is only scary if it is running Life Orb, so Berry Juice is a null argument here. The Shell Smashers (really, the only ones I'm considering are Tirtouga, Dwebble, and Omanyte; Clamperl needs either DST or Eviolite based on the team) are really kinda odd. The first two, Tirtouga and Dwebble have special note due to sturdy. Basically, you have to be careful because if you take out an opponent's Pokemon with something Tirtouga or Dwebble sets up on, you now have to do some gymnastics to get around the opponent getting a guaranteed 2 Shell Smashes. Omanyte's worth a mention since it actually beats a lot of Tirtouga's typical counters (Ferroseed and Lileep come to mind, as both can be "handled" with Ice Beam) and is bulky enough to take a hit.

So, it comes down to what's more preferable. Is the more preferable meta one that has no Berry Juice, but nerfed Shell Smashers (the current meta)? Or is the preferable meta the one that has Berry Juice, but banned Shell Smashers? That's right, I think the initial discussion should not emphasize Berry Juice as a whole; Berry Juice is not a "broken" item in and of itself, it depends on what you do with it.

 

[Heysup]

also setting up screens isnt very difficult in this meta, its just not used because no one tries to really.

I actually felt I should explain this more thoroughly. Halving damage when it comes to Berry Juice is completely different than Eviolite because Eviolite basically has that effect where as Berry Juice essentially boosts your offensive Pokemon's HP by double. The 2x bulk boost compared to the 1.5x bulk boost actually scales further with Berry Juice when you consider that, and not to mention it basically makes you completely unable to avoid Berry Juice threw means of alternating attacks or OHKOes.

I think the big thing is that offensive Pokemon with Berry Juice become imbalanced (slightly better, if you will) but not broken. I played a game a while back using Berry Juice on my hazards Dwebble, and it got what, one more layer of hazards up than normal? This was neutered by the fact that everyone *had* to run Staryu in order to get their Sturdy sweeper safely in and blah blah blah.

I guess you weren't directly replying to me but Dwebble's additional ability to Spike is not really a a huge concern....it does this pretty well with Oran Berry and one layer of Spikes doesn't cause you to lose the game like 3-4 Dragon Dance boosts...

Heysup's point about 2HKOs becoming 3 or even 4HKOs applies, but it also applies to Eviolite. There are more than a few would-be 2HKOs (especially in the case of mons with super offensive stats, such as Ponyta) that become 3HKOs or 4HKOs when the opposition has Eviolite. Does that mean Eviolite is broken? No, it just means Eviolite lessens the foe's offensive presence. Berry Juice is basically a counterpart to Eviolite; instead of lessening the foe's offensive presence, it helps the user's HP presence. To put it simply, an attack hits for the same damage whether the target has Berry Juice or not. However, provided the attack does not OHKO, the target can take more of these attacks with Berry Juice. Eviolite's useful in that it can prevent certain OHKOs.

When you compare the two like this, how can you not see the inherent threat of Berry Juice? What you're basically saying is: Eviolite is more useful in certain situations on more defensive Pokemon. However, you need to keep in mind that defensive Pokemon were not ever the reason for banning Berry Juice. The fact of the matter is that Eviolite helps set up sweepers a little bit but it only boosts their bulk by a very small number, sometimes not even mattering at all in the scheme of things. However Berry Juice basically doubles almost every set up sweeper's bulk. It makes Eviolite look like absolute trash and outclasses it in so many ways. For example, even with Eviolite Bagon is 2HKOed by Hidden Power Ice from Bronzor, but it's 3HKOed by the berry Juice variant. The difference between +2 and +3 is actually the difference between likely OHKOing and not possibly OHKOing. It adds more bulk to frailer Pokemon than Eviolite and that's why it's too much, why one is clearly broken one isn't.

The question here is not if Berry Juice is broken, by itself, arguing Berry Juice is broken is like arguing Eviolite is broken because it makes Scraggy too much of a threat.

It's fairly obvious that your analogy falls flat as soon as you introduce more than one Pokemon into that scenario. It would be like arguing Eviolite is broken only if Eviolite broken a whole slew of Pokemon.....which it doesn't.

The question is what does Berry Juice break? In my personal experience, I think Heysup's numbers apparently argue that Berry Juice breaks offensive Pokemon, especially those with a set up move that have enough bulk to take an attack, and even more the Sturdy Smashers. In my experience, most offensive Pokemon apart from the Shell Smashers are not broken after one turn of set up. For example, Scraggy after one turn of set up is honestly not that scary; it would always still use Eviolite. Misdreavus after one turn of set up is only scary if it is running Life Orb, so Berry Juice is a null argument here. The Shell Smashers (really, the only ones I'm considering are Tirtouga, Dwebble, and Omanyte; Clamperl needs either DST or Eviolite based on the team) are really kinda odd. The first two, Tirtouga and Dwebble have special note due to sturdy. Basically, you have to be careful because if you take out an opponent's Pokemon with something Tirtouga or Dwebble sets up on, you now have to do some gymnastics to get around the opponent getting a guaranteed 2 Shell Smashes. Omanyte's worth a mention since it actually beats a lot of Tirtouga's typical counters (Ferroseed and Lileep come to mind, as both can be "handled" with Ice Beam) and is bulky enough to take a hit.

So, it comes down to what's more preferable. Is the more preferable meta one that has no Berry Juice, but nerfed Shell Smashers (the current meta)? Or is the preferable meta the one that has Berry Juice, but banned Shell Smashers? That's right, I think the initial discussion should not emphasize Berry Juice as a whole; Berry Juice is not a "broken" item in and of itself, it depends on what you do with it.

The scary part (and the reason why I'm not even focusing on Shell Smashers, is that you can get more than one boost very very easily. While I disagree with you immensely about Missy, I'm going to ignore that and look at the bigger picture. You absolutely need to ban the broken item even though it's an item. If the item breaks a large number of Pokemon then obviously the item is the culprit. You can look at it in a more complicated light if you want, for example banning Berry Juice + set up sweepers but I think we can agree that would be messy. It makes much more sense to just straight up ban the thing that's causing so many Pokemon to be broken.

I guess the main difference between what we're saying is that you only think Shell Smashers with Sturdy are broken. If that was the case I'd agree with you, but I can tell you almost certainly that it isn't.

 

[AlphaJolt]

I'm agreeing with Heysup on this whole thing. Defensive poke don't need Berry Juice because they want to tank hits with Eviolite. Berry Juice lets offensive poke set up so easily it's just disgusting.

Misdreavus after one turn of set up is only scary if it is running Life Orb, so Berry Juice is a null argument here.

Missy has an easy enough time as it is setting up a NP. With Berry Juice, it doesn't need a Life Orb because it can just set up a second NP instead. Now you're dealing with a Missy at +4, have fun with that, especially if you are playing mind games with Sub and Sucker Punch.

Let's count the rest of the offensive threats: Dratini, Bagon, Omanyte, Shellder, Tirtouga, and I bet some people will try BJ Krow with Brave Bird. I'm sure people will also find other offensive mons that can abuse it. There are already so many offensive threats that become broken when Berry Juice is introduced that to me it is quite obvious that Berry Juice is broken and should remain banned.

 

[Ray Jay]

You'd be surprised.....Light Screen and Reflect halve damage and even Abra won't be OHKOed (or even 2HKOed) by shit like Gyro Ball from Ferroseed or Bronzor. This is especially true when you consider the amount of set up leads there are and how effective you can be at just shutting them down while keeping screens up.

Actually, after some playtesting sessions yesterday, this is the big thing I want to highlight. I'll admit, Berry Juice by itself is manageable but kinda dumb (ie I was running Snover for the sole purpose of breaking Sturdy). Berry Juice with Dual Screens is a completely different story. In one battle, elevator music surprised me by setting up Dual Screens with Staryu when I expected him to spin and the rest was history. With Dual Screens, Berry Juice becomes completely obnoxious with set up Pokemon that lack a recovery move. I will say a notable example of this was indeed Misdreavus (what I get for underestimating it), but there are a whole mess of other Pokemon that set up behind Dual Screens (which gives a higher defense boost than Eviolite, j/s). Overall, I would say the combo of Dual Screens + Berry Juice is too much for the current meta that is evolving as a more defensive one over time. Unfortunately, I have not yet reached a decision as to whether this is anti-metagaming or whether it's just straight broken, but it definitely needs a further look than "hey guys, it's like Eviolite but recovery let's unban it."

 

[v]

I don't mean to sound like I'm trying to dodge putting content into this post or like you guys don't know what you're talking about, but every single metagame I've played that had Berry Juice in them (read: all the metagames with BJ) were awful shitstorms. The people who are arguing for bj to be unbanned are people who, for the most part, have not played with bj extensively, iss being the exception. It may sound dismissive, but I'd rather chalk this one up to "we've tried it, let's just leave it alone forever" like we did with Scyther.