np: RU Stage 7 - Don't Look Back

[Oglemi]

Woah, those are some major changes with the new tier shifts. Claydol, Gligar, Honchkrow, and Sharpedo are all leaving the tier, two of which are former suspects.

So how's the metagame going to develop now? The top 2 most used Pokemon are now out of the tier, along with one of the best late-game sweepers and one of the sturdiest physical walls available.

Will Cofagrigus reign supreme? Will Sandslash usage rise to replace the loss of Claydol as a spinner, or will Hitmonchan keep his higher spot? Both offensive and defensive teams have lost key players, so will the tier stay balanced, or will a new Pokemon come to the fore as broken?

Can't wait to see how this round turns out!

Oh, and here's the song:

[youtube]3VPLOVJ0u94[/youtube]

 

[lars]

I assume I'm not alone in saying, "Go fuck yourself UU."

A truly fitting name for Stage 7 Oglemi.

Kabutops is underrated for SR/spinning. I have a hunch he will be picking up a decent amount of Claydol slack. Although Steelix/Hitmonchan can fill that need too and have decent synergy. ---just noticed that Hitmonlee actually didn't make it up there, so he will probably do in some cases as well.

Cofagrigus will be even more of a force without a Honchkrow Sucker Punch possibly waiting for the offensive sets and even maybe a pursuit to catch him fleeing.

Nothing can really fill the spaces of Honchkrow, Sharpedo and Gligar.

I'll probably be trying Absol out to fill up the gaping hole left by Honchkrow's absence. Although the lack of moxie and even insomnia (and even STAB Brave Bird) is quite obvious.

As for Sharpedo... yea... Ninjask? lol at least it gets Swords Dance. Really nothing can. I might try some of the unburden sets now. Drifblim might be more usable without all that Dark STAB flying/swimming around.

In a similar vein, Gligar will be so hard to replace. Walls with actual recovery are pretty few and far between in RU. Physically Defensive Mandibuzz has a chance, but the loss of neutrality to SR and other powerful rock moves will make that difficult.


with slightly less (Sucker Punch) priority to worry about (unless Absol or something like SD Freligatr really gets a boost) I can see more fast scarfers in the future and they won't even need to worry about losing to Sharpedo after a couple turns now. Also, I can see a slight drop in Hitmonchan, who was more or less the best Sharpedo revenger with Iron Fist Mach Punch.

Even with the loss of Gligar, stall /semi-stall just seems to be looking better and better.

EDIT >.> so many analyses with obsolete references.

 

[Oglemi]

In a similar vein, Gligar will be so hard to replace. Walls with actual recovery are pretty few and far between in RU. Physically Defensive Mandibuzz has a chance, but the loss of neutrality to SR and other powerful rock moves will make that difficult.


with slightly less (Sucker Punch) priority to worry about (unless Absol or something like SD Freligatr really gets a boost) I can see more fast scarfers in the future and they won't even need to worry about losing to Sharpedo after a couple turns now. Also, I can see a slight drop in Hitmonchan, who was more or less the best Sharpedo revenger with Iron Fist Mach Punch.


EDIT >.> so many analyses with obsolete references.

Yeah Gligar is definitely going to be difficult to replace. I'm thinking Mandibuzz and Tangrowth usage is going to rise to fill the hole, and maybe Miltank and Alomomola usage too.

It's interesting you bring up Scarf usage. Scarf Galvantula now sounds twice as dangerous as last round, especially with two of the most common priority users gone, as well as two popular Electric-immune mons. Not to mention that Scarf Galvantula can still remain a check to Shell Smash Omastar and Lilligant.

oi, don't get me even started on the analyses >.>

 

[-Tsunami-]

So, who volunteers to fix up all the analyses ;)

Anyway, these changes seem pretty cool. Claydol tbh wasn't that good of a spinner anyway, so I don't think that that's too big of an issue. With Sharpedo and Honchkrow gone, OTR Cofag is going to be completely awesome (not like it needed any more help); can't wait to use it. Cryogonal or Hitmonchan will prob rise in usage since Claydol's gone though; nothing else really has a shot. Sandslash is even more of a set-up fodder Pokemon than Claydol was, and it doesnt even resist Fighting. Even though it isn't weak to dark like Claydol was, this is really a moot point since RU just lost the best two Dark-types in the metagame anyway.

 

[PK Gaming]

Fuck Hitmonchan
Fuck Cryogenal

I'm backing team Sandslash.

I haven't played in a while, but I figure the loss of Sharpedro and Krow will make OTR Cofag much, much better which is fine by me. (I love the thing) Loss of Gligar is kinda of a big deal, but I can deal.

 

[SilentVerse]

To be honest I won't particularly miss Claydol, since I personally felt that it wasn't really that great in the first place. I guess that it's niche will be hard to replace, but I've always found a combination of Steelix or something + Hitmonchan much better if you need Rapid Spin support and Stealth Rock, unless you really needed to have both in one teamslot, and even then, it's not like Claydol could spin well against any team with a spinblocker. In terms of spinners though, RU has enough of them to make losing Claydol not really a huge loss imo, since Kabutops, Hitmonchan, Cryogonal, Sandslash (hey it can actually hurt spinblockers!) are all excellent choices. I'm going to agree that Honchkrow, Gligar, and Sharpedo can't be replaced, either, though I think Absol and Crawdaunt might be used a bit more as people try to use them to replace Honchkrow and Sharpedo, though Absol lacks Honchkrow's awesome STAB Brave Bird and Crawdaunt is too slow to sweep like Sharpedo. Still, they'll probably be somewhat decent choices, but obviously nowhere near the level of the Pokemon they're replacing.

I'm more afraid that this round is going to lead to a huge rise in Nasty Plot Trick Room Cofagrigus usage, which is going to be a pain to deal with without Sharpedo and Honchkrow. Mandibuzz and Drapion will probably be the best bets to deal with it, though they're actually quite good and they should have more usage anyway. Unfortunately, the problem is that Cofagrigus works stupidly well alongside entry hazards, so Drapion isn't that reliable useless you use RestTalk or something (which is actually really cool though). This round certainly seems like it's going to be interesting though!

 

[typon77]

Cofagrigus pissed me off enough, now the best answer to it is gone.... Damn

Also, Tangrowth needs some rep, especially now that Gligar's gone. Together with Slowking, they wall a lot of non-bugs and can switch back and forth, healing off the damage from resisted attacks. Then, you can use a sweeper who can switch on on their weaknesses, like Moltres, Sceptile (In Slowking's Case). Speaking of which, Sceptile needs more usage. It hits stupidly hard with Leaf Storm, and hits defensive mons like Cofagrigus and Slowking hard. Plus, dat speed

 

[Double01]

Well, well...

To start off NP Cofag is going to be a pretty dominant force in RU as it was a dominant force WITH both sharpedo and Honchkrow in the tier. I sense a rise in Sp Def Drapion, Mandibuzz, and CM spiritomb to rise in the course of next few weeks. Now my thoughts on the pokes that moved up.

Claydol- LOL. This pokes makes me really sad leaving. Not because of how good it is, (which it's not) but losing a poke that someone many people have that is set up bait makes me sad.

Honchkrow- I'm fairly happy this douche is gone. It is a very deadly force that is one of the best revenge killer in the game. Definitely going to open some doors for other sweepers.

Sharpedo- NOOOO!!!!! This makes me sad, mad, and everything in between. As one of the best sweepers in the game its quite sad to see it gone. Not only that but it screwed my team over that i had since the end of ROUND 2 and now its back to the drawing board. (expect a RMT of my retired team)

Gligar- I have mixed feelings about this poke. Yes it is the best defensive poke in the tier but the tier is mainly a specially based tier. Also I always felt Steelix was more of a nuisance to my team than Gligar. Probably because of Steelix's resistances and Roar.

Overall, the tier shifts were sort of bitter-sweet. (more bitter than sweet) As it did fuck my team over as nothing can replace Sharpedo's instant power and cover. But this gives me to start a new team and abuse the hell out of NP Cofag.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

Thanks for choosing the best song of the last century for the title.

 

[MegaKick]

Wow two great fighting resists are gone, making life easier for gallade medicham primeape and hitmonchan/lee.

 

[Honko]

Yeah, might give the ol' triple-Fighting team another whirl. CB Medicham the best.

Honchkrow leaving is lame, I really think it helped give the tier some structure. It's great news for Sun teams though. No Honchkrow, no Gligar, no Durant, and less Hitmonchan = Sawsbuck suddenly looks interesting again.

 

[Pearl]

Kabutops is underrated for SR/spinning. I have a hunch he will be picking up a decent amount of Claydol slack. Although Steelix/Hitmonchan can fill that need too and have decent synergy. ---just noticed that Hitmonlee actually didn't make it up there, so he will probably do in some cases as well.

This part of your post caught my attention, lars. Kabutops has always been underrated, trust me, even before all this crazy tier changes. I would only use it with Stealth Rock if it was really needed though, as Swords Dance is what makes it such a deadly Rapid Spinner. A Swords Dance boosted Stone Edge followed by an Aqua Jet can easily shut down Trick Room Cofagrigus, arguably the most common Ghost-type in RU. Hitmonchan was a bad user of Rapid Spin and still is. The loss of Claydol (which unlike many people say was pretty good. The problem was that it relied a lot on a Pursuit user to get past Ghost-types) won't change that. Also, I'm very happy Sharpedo was banned, since now I don't have to try to convince other council members it's in fact broken.

tl;dr - Kabutops is awesome, and so is RU now. Now lets all use Cofagrigus and Absol.

 

[Windsong]

Claydol sucks and has always sucked. Honestly, it just didn't do anything but spin. Sure it usually countered Aerodactyl, and sometimes countered Aggron. But most of the time it just sat there and got set up on by something like Gallade, Cof, or Sigilyph. The only legitimate reason for using it was because the meta was so damn centered around hazards that certain threats absolutely needed to be paired with spinners and Claydol as just the only option that synergized well (see: offered a bulky Rock resist and Stealth Rock).

Speaking of Aggron, it's really damn good right now. I'd say that it or Cof is the best mon in the meta right now. Aggron lost two of its best counters, and the few other reasonably solid Aggron checks don't fit onto many teams as easily as Claydol and Gligar. Cof would be the best mon with Krow leaving, but people just overprepare for it now. Not to mention the fact that Absol just keeps getting better, which doesn't exactly help Cof.

Also I will be going through and editing out all mentions of Honchkrow on stuff that doesn't need to be completely revamped today. xD

 

[lars]

This part of your post caught my attention, lars. Kabutops has always been underrated, trust me, even before all this crazy tier changes. I would only use it with Stealth Rock if it was really needed though, as Swords Dance is what makes it such a deadly Rapid Spinner. A Swords Dance boosted Stone Edge followed by an Aqua Jet can easily shut down Trick Room Cofagrigus, arguably the most common Ghost-type in RU. Hitmonchan was a bad user of Rapid Spin and still is. The loss of Claydol (which unlike many people say was pretty good. The problem was that it relied a lot on a Pursuit user to get past Ghost-types) won't change that. Also, I'm very happy Sharpedo was banned, since now I don't have to try to convince other council members it's in fact broken.

tl;dr - Kabutops is awesome, and so is RU now. Now lets all use Cofagrigus and Absol.

Completely agree. The versatility of Kabutops is really the most impressive. Highly effective support with SR, rapid spin, and even knock off and foresight. Highly effective offense (and gets even better in the rain) with Swords Dance (or Rock Polish if that sounds appealing) and good stabs with x-scissor, superpower, STAB priority. His high defense even lets it tank some physical attacks (CB Entei does nothing) with some investment.

46th in usage -shakes head- at least it's a little better in 1337.


As for Claydol, he was a crutch on many teams that needed his resistances and a spinner. I used to use him when I first started RU because it was the easiest to throw on. I don't think he sucks, but he wasn't the best spinner. People won't complain about him so much if he sat down around rank 30-40

 

[/B/utterfree]

My thoughts on what left the RU tier this month:

Claydol - Single-handedly the least broken Pokemon in the RU tier, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was the least useful. Claydol does wonderfully well to switch in against Ground-type attacks (via Levitate) and Electric-type attacks (through being Ground-type). It also resists Rock-type attacks (and hazards), and can Rapid Spin the hazards away, while also being capable of using physical moves like Earthquake and Zen Headbutt to dent things.

Gligar - Meh. It was fairly easy to deal with in RU, and it will be easy to deal with in UU as well. Since Gligars are what Gliscor were as kids, I can shrug and marvel at the species' immense power and usefulness.

Honchkrow - This Pokemon was too controversial for RU, period. People left-and-right found it too powerful in the tier, while others did not. When it could never be Suspect Tested again for RU because people denied it the promotion, people just used it more in UU. Honch will be just as lethal in UU as it was in RU. Its brokenness also breaks itself, though: recoil is what makes Honch not in BL already.

Sharpedo - Same as Honchkrow, but with an additive for it: Sharpedo's role is that of one of the best late-game cleaners in the game. Those that use it too early will see it fall too harshly, and it is only so-so in a mid-game scenario.


All in all, less things for Aggron to butcher this time around.

 

[complete legitimacy]

I think that Honchkrow and Sharpedo had a much bigger effect on the metagame than either Claydol or Gligar. Stall has gotten a lot better without deadly mixed sweepers, and the only true RU mixed wallbreaker is Electivire. I'm thinking that people will eventually go down to NU to pick up things such as Samurott and Skuntank that have the ability to go mixed. All stall has to do is run something such as defensive Spiritomb, which can burn Electivire, if it isn't affected by Toxic Spikes beforehand. Add that to the fact that Electivire kills itself pretty quickly between Wild Charge and Life Orb, and it's suddenly far less threatening than in theory.

Another interesting thing is that most of the Pokemon around base 80 speed would only run enough speed to beat Adamant Honchkrow (Hitmonchan, Feraligatr, Kabutops), which is totally outdated now. The benchmark I've been using is max speed Omastar, although that can be adjusted. One thing that can beat stall that I've been using to great success is Bulk Up Medicham, although more defensive than you might think. I can't remember the exact spread, but I ran enough speed to outspeed Omastar, and enough bulk that Lanturn's Scald will never break your Sub while also being a Leftovers number. Substitute and Bulk Up were really useful to avoid status and set up. What sets this set apart from Gallade is Hi Jump Kick and Recover, which coming off of Medicham's higher attack stat as well as double the base power of Drain Punch is a lot more powerful than Gallade. Recover is another cool move that Medicham has, and since Medicham can force a lot out Recover ensures that Medicham stays around long enough to get rid of stall. This of course makes it completely susceptible to Ghosts, so a Pursuit user is required, and Toxic Spikes helps the set as well.

 

[DittoCrow]

Yeah I haven't played much yet, but certain Pokemon definitely need revisions to their EV spreads since Honchkrow left xD. Medicham will probably take the spot of one of the most used physical attackers in RU. People are coming up with pretty cool sets for it! One thing I could suggest to be good this round is SD Drapion. Because Ghost-types are more popular now that Honch/Sharpedo are gone, Drapion is a great mon to deal with them. I also think that stall is going to be much easier to build imo with Honch and Sharpedo gone. If anyone finds any good stall pokes, please tell me ;p

 

[alexwolf]

@complete legitimacy

It isn't true that there aren't good wallbreakers in the tier. CB Aggron, Specs Moltres,Specs Rotom-C and even Whirlwind Sigilyph are excellent wallbreakers. Especially Aggron that has one less check and one less counter (his best) to worry about now. Hard stall teams didn't even have a problem to begin with, with the pokes you mentioned. Sharpedo is a superb cleaner, but it ain't getting past stall teams easily. Same with Krow. These 2 pokes troubled balanced and offensive teams more imo. For example sun teams have one less problem to worry about, now that the stronger priority user in the tier is gone.

I think that CB Aggron is going to be a beast this round. The only pokes that can take 2 hits from him in the whole tier are Steelix, Poliwrath and Hariyama. And guess what, 2 of them are shit, none of them has reliable recovery while Steelix loses around 46% from a CB EQ. So Quagsire usage is going to rise like crazy. In the next 3 months, NU may even lose him (the best players had alrdy start using Quagsire before the tiers changed, he was No 27 in the 1337 usage). None should be using Ice Punch on Aggron now that Gligar is gone, so everyone is free to murder unsuspecting Ferroseeds!!!

Also Mandibuzz was, is, and will be such a boss! With Cofagrigus being literally everywhere, and the fact that she can wall almost all special attackers in the tier, this thing is going to be more famous than Justin Bieber...

 

[Ningildo]

BS Pearl, I thought only I used SD+RS Kabutops.

Anyway, the only two things I'm missing are Sharpedo and Honchkrow, because FU stall. Joking(ish) aside, my future predictions are:

-Obviously, with no Honchkrow or Sharpedo to scare them off, many Ghost and Psychic types are free to start mayhem with far less danger in sight. As mentioned, Cofragigus will by far explode in usage, both in offensive and defensive sets. Prepare for a rise in offensive CM Sigilyph as well.

-"Drapion? Why Drapion?" Besides being one of the few Dark types left in RU, it is possibly the only pokemon that benefits now from one of its biggest counters, Gligar, being gone and that will benefit later, when all the Cofragigus and Sigilyph etc are roaming, both pokemon that Drapion can check with ease. The one other Dark type also reaping rewards is Absol, as it is in pretty much the same situation as Drapion, though it can't check Cofagrigus well.

But who knows what will happen? Maybe we'll even have a rise in Skuntank usage! :P

 

[Blue_Star]

There's one mon that is REALLY good but not everyone uses it: Crawdaunt. This guy is so strong, he OHKOes basically the entire top 10 most used mons after a DD except for Qwilfish, who can't touch it after a Substitute / Taunt. It can be a potential suspect IMO.

 

[Molk]

crawdaunt is a good pokemon, no doubt about that, its an excellent DD'er and choice abuser, but it has a few downfalls that prevent it from being suspect worthy.

For one thing, crawdaunt is relatively frail compared to other Dragon Dance users in the tier,(feraligatr, fraxure after eviolite, shelgon who ive wanted to try for a little while)making it significantly harder to set up, its physical defense isnt so bad, but most special hits will at the very least 2hko it, and unlike the banned durant it lacks significant resistances and has a weakness to hitmonchan's mach punch.

another reason that crawdaunt isnt broken is that even AFTER a dragon dance, it is still rather slow, only being able to outrun base 105's at best and being revenged by literally every scarfer in the tier if it doesnt have a sub up, sure base 105 is fast, but key threats such as galvantula, sceptile, and scolipede still outrun it, and hit it super effectively.

although, maybe im underestimating crawdaunt's bulk? can you provide some calcs of crawdaunt taking reasonably strong hits with enough hp to sweep or avoid being revenge killed? ive always wanted to try out crawdaunt tbh, its a really cool mon and has a lot of raw power, but i cant imagine it being broken.

btw sawsbuck is still a beast in RU despite recently dropping to NU, take into account that its main revenge killer moved up to UU at the same time, and how hard it is to wall sawsbuck, along with nature power bypassing absol's sucker punch, which is really awesome in a pinch.

edit: crawdaunt has a resistance to sucker punch which can come in handy, i guess

 

[lars]

Crawdaunt is pretty good, if only because of adaptability. Almost every good balance or offense team has something that can outspeed after a DD and OHKO (molk you are right, he is really frail - 60/80 and 60/55 defenses or Something) or Tangrowth that can easily stop him. Plus there is still a decent amount of Mach punch flying around.

I don't have much experience using it, but CB is actually better imo. Usually don't have many problems stopping it

 

[Oglemi]

So how is everyone feeling about the new metagame? What has everybody been using, having problems with, etc.?

I think I've personally fallen in love with Tangrowth, since it counters so many things in the metagame, particularly Aggron, Medicham (and most other Fighting-types), Crawdaunt, and Absol among others, while also supporting the team through Leech Seed and Sleep Powder.

I've also noticed a huge increase in the amount of Steelix and Sandslash roaming around the ladder. Has Sandslash more or less replaced Claydol at this point, or has Uxie? I feel Uxie encounters the same dilemma as Claydol, in that it does a lot for a team (sets up Stealth Rock, can use Heal Bell, can set up dual screens/weather, Memento, etc.), but it's basically set up bait for every major threat in the metagame. What kinds of Uxie sets are you using, or which threats are you using to take advantage of it?

Finally, what does everyone think of Cofagrigus? I personally haven't had any troubles with it, though the OTR set is extremely dangerous if I give it the opportunity to set up. Thoughts on the defensive sets?

 

[Honus]

I really like Cofagrigus as both a spinblocker and OTR Sweeper. The OTR Sweeper is a really great way to get a win if you can manage to wear down Clefable or Mandibuzz, as Clefable barely gets by against OTR Cofag while Mandibuzz can just be forced into coming in while SR is up numerous times until you get it where you want healthwise so that Cofag can knock it out at +2. Cofag's also my favorite spinblocker atm since it acts as a backup Physical wall of sorts and between Mummy, it's great defense and WoW, it can actually help out your Tangrowth/Steelix/etc wall any Physical threats on the opposing team, so it's hardly a liability.

 

[Rakan]

I've recently got back into RU after the tier shifts, and there are two Pokemon that I've absolutely fallen in love with that are pretty underrated and not used enough. Of course, SilentVerse will kill me after saying this but dgaf xD. Crawdaunt is a beastly force in the RU metagame, as it can tear through the majority of the metagame with it's Adaptability-boosted STABs. The other threat is Scyther. I've been using a Choice Band variant, and boy does it hit hard. STAB U-Turn is nothing to laugh at, especially as there aren't too many Bug resists in the metagame. If you pair Scyther with a good rapid spinner such as Hitmonchan, it can easily punch holes in your opponents team by battering them with repeated U-Turns. Another small note is that I've found VoltTurn to be somewhat prominent in RU with users such as the aforementioned Scyther, as well as Lanturn, Manectric, and many more. Quite the annoying tactic if you lack a Volt Absorber / Ground-type / Bug resist.