np: UU Stage 6 - No Surprises

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Psychotic

Banned deucer.
And regarding Kingdra, my preferred variant is still Special RD. Not only does it obliterate sand teams once Empoleon is gone / weakened, it's a late-game cleaner of unparalleled power and speed. And you can use it as a mini-specs kingdra if you really wanted to.
I'm using it on a sand team, so that would be kind of counter-productive, but I really like that set as well.
 

pokemonisfun

Banned deucer.
A few things, first, thanks for at least considering the bullshit that is sand veil. Any game would be healthier, I think, if you take away the randomness.

As for Kingdra, I never used it yet for some reason but I always had the most trouble facing Rain Dance ones since they are so ridiculously powerful, especially if you try to switch in Hitmontop or something to wall physical versions. I find it odd that even though it can only abuse STAB moves, and random coverage moves, its counters are still completely surprised if you use the wrong set. Milotic for instance will almost always lose to the DD set while stuff like Slowbro gets beat up by special sets. In fact all of these counters really don't work well at all no matter what if Spikes are down.

Yeah I don't understand what the Senators were saying when they said stall teams couldn't function in a deo-d metagame very well...I know for sure my stall team constantly stayed at the top ten of the ladder for the last half of the last round and topped it more than once. Every competent stall team will run a spinblocker, period the end. And the only spinblocker worth thinking about is Sableye (maybeeeeeeee Mismagius or Dusclops if you are desperate for the defenses) which completely shuts down Deo. Any competent stall teams should also have a spinner and seize any moment they can to spin if hazards get piled.

That is way beyond the point though, as for Spikes in the current game I honestly have not seen any random new Spikers. Maybe thats just luck though. I think Frosslass has been used a tad more maybe, but I always thought it was amazing with a bulky set. It sets up on everything tank/wall-wise basically and the stuff that it can't set up on it can usually outspeed still to get a layer or two still.

I really like this metagame actually. Stoutland is nowhere near broken, it has too many solid counters and checks and relies on way too much team support to guarantee a sweep. Frankly if you gave, say Seaking, the same conditions as Stoutland needs (weather, Spikes, weakened bulky waters compared to Rhyperior and Bronzong) then it would sweep just as well. Sand stream is a worry I guess but everyone should be running a sand counter anyways. Team preview means its easy to identify which one of your pokes needs to live until late game, if you aren't abusing that to keep your Bronzong alive when you see they have a Stoutland and Gligar, thats your own fault.
 
RIP Deo-D. I used him back when Kyurem and Vulpix were still hot shit down here.

Anyway I've been really enjoying priority heavy teams lately, things like azelf can be a real pain in the arse except they have to deal with Hitmontop, Azumarill, and bisharp. harassing them. With spikes and rocks down, I can easily combat the hyper offensive teams lingering from the last stage
 

Aldaron

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All I have to say is thank god for Porygon2 cause otherwise stopping Zapdos / Lo Sharpedo / Chandelure would be a god damned repeated pain in snunch's behind.
 

Bad Ass

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All I have to say is thank god for Porygon2 cause otherwise stopping Zapdos / Lo Sharpedo / Chandelure would be a god damned repeated pain in snunch's behind.
do you use offensive or defensive? i can't find a good defensive spread for taking both sides of the spectrum
 
It's usually best to pick a side with P2 and not "go mixed" (quotes because even with 252/0 it can counter a bunch of stuff). I guess you could use 252 / 120 / 136+, but it's probably best to go max on one side.

Speaking of really strong stuff, Togekiss counters Sharpedo and Chandelure and can paralyze Zapdos and Raikou on the switch. Togekiss can even beat choiced Raikou one-on-one with Nasty Plot and twave. With the best offensive stealth rock user gone, you can get by without a spinner. Nasty Plot + Heal Bell can tear apart stall as well. Really underrated defensive pivot.
 

FlareBlitz

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I'm very partial to the P2 spread in the upcoming analysis - 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 SpD. The SpD lets you avoid a 2hko even from crazy strong attacks like Specs Zappy Tbolts almost all the time. Now, Chandelure can wreck you with a well-timed Specs HP Fighting, but the extra defense is great for countering the increasingly popular CB Flygon (which 2hkos the SpD variants with Outrage) and Scarf Darma and also great for doing silly shit like surviving CB Heracross' Close Combat (not really useful, but come on, how great is that).

Also, can someone please explain why no one is using Suicune? Yeah, the defensive set is kind of bad, but come on guys, it's the only good water type to get Calm Mind. Run an offensive CM set and make spikestack teams cry - they don't have anything that can hit the thing while taking a hit back. Honestly, between Suicune and CBLax (great for pursuiting those pesky Chandelures) and Zapdos, I'm increasingly of the belief that this metagame is going to revolve around much bulkier offense than the last one did, simply because Deoxys isn't there to taunt-recover stall and shit on everything.
 

kokoloko

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Also, can someone please explain why no one is using Suicune? Yeah, the defensive set is kind of bad, but come on guys, it's the only good water type to get Calm Mind.
Calm Mind Slowbro will forever be an utter pimp and I therefore resent your statement. I agree with more people needing to use Suicune though; Aside from Roserade, who cleanly OHKOs with a LO Leaf Storm even at +1, not much can beat it 1 on 1 if they come in on a Calm Mind. Shaymin does 74.5% - 88% with a LO Seed Flare to 0/4 +1 Suicune while taking 77.4% - 91.5% from a +1 Modest Ice Beam, so I suppose it can go for the 1 for 1.

If you're having trouble getting Suicune to actually do something, its probably because you're using it to come in on Darmanitan/Victini/whatever as opposed to saving its health until you get a chance to set up. Pair it with another Water-type to take hits from those dudes and perhaps even weaken Empoleon/Snorlax to the point where they can't Roar/kill you and watch the magic happen.
 
So I've found Nidoking to be extremely effective against those annoying sand teams. Without taking major risks, every sand team I have come across can't switch into Nidoking's Ice Beam, which means that if I lead with it, I get a free KO on their hippo right off the bat. As long as you have a Stoutland counter (which they'll try to revenge Nidoking with), you're pretty much starting off 6-5. You can get it in later on Gligar's Roost or something and repeat the damage. Very effective anti-sand mon.
 
A poke does not have to have outstanding usage for it to be broken. Wobbufett wasn't even in the top 10 before it was deemed to be broken in OU.
 

pokemonisfun

Banned deucer.
All I have to say is thank god for Porygon2 cause otherwise stopping Zapdos / Lo Sharpedo / Chandelure would be a god damned repeated pain in snunch's behind.
I prefer to use very specially defensive Umbreon which in exchange for less bulk can support the team in different ways than just paralysis, mainly cleric and Wsh Passing. It can beat basically any special attacker with Toxic Spikes down except Togekis, Yanmega and Zoroark (which is rare enough, even before including the Nasty Plot set). Synchronize is extremely helpful on bouncing back Scalds to the likes of Empoleon or Toxic from Xatu, then you can just heal your whole team of status. It just can't stop physical attackers as well.
 
I'm so sick of the Sandstorm crap in UU, I believe it is bad for the metagame and cancels out fun playstyles. It's also pretty OP, with even Hippopotas now becoming useful with Eviolite.

Hail was banned too, how is sandstorm any different? With Hail gone too, people can't run stuff like Morning Sun Arcanine, have to be wary of even friggin Cacturne turning your game win and on top of it all bulky sweepers get powned by all the extra residual damage it causes.

I can't do much about it sadly, but if I could I'd give Sandstorm the boot.
 

kokoloko

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As a senator I should probably be less biased, but quite frankly, I agree with you 100% (except where you say Sand == Hail, that's taking it a little too far). Sand is really not fun to play against but the problem is that, under Smogon's tiering philosophy, until someone can present hard evidence that Sand might actually be broken or uncompetitive (as opposed to just ... "ugh"), we can't declare it a suspect, much less ban it.

Sand Veil is a whole other story though. I genuinely believe that its uncompetitive (under the premise that players who abuse it are actively handing control of the game to the RNG), and should be banned, if only for the sake of consistency (it breaks Evasion Clause!!).
 

FlareBlitz

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Interestingly, I remember there being some stats about how Stoutland had one of the highest kill-per-game numbers in the tier, getting an average of 2-3 kills per game.

Despite that, I'm not confident that sand is broken. There are a substantial amount of threats that can set up on a Stoutland locked into Return. I would like to call particular attention to Chandelure, who can often run through sand teams with just Fire Blast given the free switches Stoutland offers - sand teams rarely carry good fire resists (I've only seen Omastar, who fears Energy Ball even with the SpD boost). Another option is mixed SD Cobalion with Life Orb and HP Ice - 252/0 Gligar takes a minimum of 68% from HP Ice, and boosted Close Combat / Iron Heads run through every other common member. You could also just run a normal SD Cobalion with Iron Head, but you're more likely to take damage from Gligar's Earthquake. It still 2hkos at +2 though.
Another option is Magneton. Empoleon is often the glue that holds sand teams together and prevents them from getting utterly raped by a well-played Kingdra or Shaymin. Magneton can easily trap and remove Empoleon, as well as having HP Ice and Substitute to severely threaten the entire team. It's worth noting that Evolite Magneton takes like 30% from Stouty's return. And if all that isn't enough, just run Bulk Up Machamp with Ice Punch. It almost single handedly beats sand once little hippo is weakened / gone. Their only real hope is to try and get Gligar on it and poison, but note that +2 Ice Punch handily ohkos, and the +2 defense means that there's not a whole hell of a lot Stoutland can do (Machamp needs to be down to 35% health before Stoutland can ohko with Return). And of course, there's RD Kingdra - a weakened empoleon means an automatic gg. The best thing about all these Pokemon is that they're all pretty great even outside of being a huge asset against sand teams. There's no reason not to have one or two checks on your team for the playstyle. It's nowhere near as dominant as when Big Hippo was around (who had a much easier time staying alive long enough to check all of these).

That said, I did build a sand team recently, and I'm going to be testing it myself. If it ends up being too easy to use and overpoweringly powerful, I will certainly vote to ban it.
 

Pocket

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Why not simply ban Stoutland? I doubt a Sand team without a Stoutland is hardly threatening, unless Sand Veil is also a real-life issue (not just a theoretical one)? Or is a special defense boost from Rock-types also an issue?
 
Agreeing with FB. Magnet Rise/Substitute/Flash cannon/Thunderbolt Magneton has shat on every sand team I came across on the ladder, they cannot touch you. Problem with Suicune is that most of the people who use it against me usually bring it on Arcanine which is just wrong, I always take a good 60% from them before switching out leaving them to just go for the Scald as setting up by that point isn't worth it. yh....people, use LO Arcanine more, please. It is well worth it, shredding teams apart,especially when they lack Chandelure.
 
There are 2 reasons sand is asuspect,

Sand veil: yeh this shit needs to get out

Stoutland: a more precarious matter, whilst it isnt broken enough to be banned according to ban philosophy, it puts a big strain on diversity i think, due to the fact that many teams just get swept by it lategame.

I think the best option would be to ban Sand Stream or hippopotas PRIMARILY for sand veil, but also coming with the added bonus of banning stoutland which i think would make UU a more balanced tier, sand is one of those things that people dont like because it limits diversity and makes the tier less fun but isnt really broken enough for a ban, i think it is time to stop relying so much on smogon policy to make decisions, and to make decisions according to the UU metagame we want to play in (after all we are the playerbase), whether this is with sand or not is ultimately up to the council.
 

SJCrew

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I feel a lot of reports about Sand being broken come from playing against it rather than using it. Rhyperior is simply not being used, and people's Cobalion/Rhyperior are being destroyed each and every single time when they have to meet Gligar, who is quickly becoming a Sand staple due to Hippopotas' complete inability to even check the tier's premier physical attackers.

Coming from a Sand player, if you don't know how to predict, you're going to lose. Stoutland can spam Return on most teams who simply forget about him or don't have a contingency plan for losing their sole physical wall or Rock/Steel-type (critical hits people; you need more than one check!) but Chandelure flat out discourages Return spam unless you have a P2 or Snorlax in the wings, which is feasible enough, but steals more precious team slots for the sake of redundancy, due to its premier Pokemon's overlapping typing and inadequacies.

Another thing I wanted to point out: Sand teams are inflexible. Hippopotas is not a physical wall, it's basically Stealth Rock and death fodder. Not using Gligar leaves you wide open to a lot of physical attackers, including Heracross who doesn't give two shits about Hippopotas and can easily set up on it or overpower it and the rest of the team with attacks. I know there are a few other gimmicks Sand can do besides Return spam with dog, but let's face it, they are suboptimal and not used very often.

To sum it up: this shit is work. I don't get mindless wins from clicking Return and you won't either. I've seen players absolutely flail about with Sand teams, from a combination of what I've pointed out above (no prediction, no airtight teambuilding, etc.) If you're winning with Sand teams, it's because you played well and skillfully removed Stoutland's counters, not because your team is inherently better than the other guy's. However, I imagine having the best revenge killer in the metagame tips the scales in your favor somewhat. Being frustrated vs Sand is by no means a ridiculous notion, but 'broken' is not on the table right now and these workaround reasons for banning it are going to need better justification.
 
I'm sorry for saying hail=sandstorm, I actually forgot some words to point out what I actually meant.

Hail was banned due to being overpowered with all the residual damage, blizzard spamming and stuff. Sandstorm does give residual damage but is actually completely different from hail, but it still has an advantage from the start. Imo, Stoutland is Hail's Froslass. Although it is easily counterable, you do have to spend at least one slots to handle Stoutland plus a teamslot for Sandstorm in general.
 
I'm sorry for saying hail=sandstorm, I actually forgot some words to point out what I actually meant.

Hail was banned due to being overpowered with all the residual damage, blizzard spamming and stuff. Sandstorm does give residual damage but is actually completely different from hail, but it still has an advantage from the start. Imo, Stoutland is Hail's Froslass. Although it is easily counterable, you do have to spend at least one slots to handle Stoutland plus a teamslot for Sandstorm in general.
Hail was not banned for stuff being overpowered. It was simply banned for snow cloak and for some reason blizzspam, which to remind everyone only one person yelled it from across the room and all of the sudden it became more of an issue than snowcloak. Stoutland=/= frosslass in any way shape or form. Frosslass was a support pokemon with a 50/50 chance to stop it no mattee what counter u have.
 
God... Why does everyone read it so literally...

I mean it like this: Just like Froslass was overpowered (not that this could be a reason to ban a whole playstyle vs one poke) in Hail and being ONE of OTHER reasons, Stoutland is overpowered in Sandstorm. Froslass almost always got Spikes up and maybe took a pokemon down, and Stoutland will get at least one kill almost 100& of the time if it's played well too. In this context Stoutland IS just as overpowered as Froslass, but in ANOTHER way.
 

SJCrew

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For the record, I have never in any way, shape or form endorsed BlizzSpam as a viable strategy, nor have I seen any evidence that it was effective. My reasoning was that Hail's passive damage, along with Abomasnow's longevity (IE: Leech Seed), and Froslass/Mamoswine's clout restricted the best UU teams to Hail. You have to get really lucky, make a lot of good calls, and/or run something your opponent is really weak to in order to not get run over. Hail is a stalling weather, its summoner is a stalling monster, and its best abusers are very difficult to beat. On top of that, you only have one even remotely viable way to change the weather. UU is simply not equipped for that package.

Sand has less tools all around, and only one, maybe two legitimate abusers. If we wanted to ban Sand, we need to prove that Stoutland and his lackeys are causing trouble, and not just Stoutland. As of right now, his only possible understudy is Gligar, who is annoying, but isn't anywhere near as strong a case.

Perhaps the next suspect should be Stoutland?
 

Pocket

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I agree with SJCrew that Stoutland is the logical choice to suspect as opposed to Sandstream. I disagree that Stoutland / sand is broken, though. FlareBlitz gave several viable answers in dealing against Sand. In addition as SJCrew mentioned, Sand teams must pay a cost in fitting Hippopotas, a rather useless mon, into their teams.
 
Sand is no doubt a powerful force in the UU metagame, but I'd say that it isn't quite broken at the moment. People are pretty creative these days, and can easily come up with solutions to take down sand teams. For some reason, I haven't been seeing too many Hitmontop, when it is one of the best checks to Stoutland with Technician Fake Out and Mach Punch. It also is a great Rapid Spinner, so I'm not sure why people aren't using it more... I've also found Suicune a great way to deal with sand, as it takes nothing from Gligar's Earthquakes, and Stoutland cannot 2HKO without Stealth Rock support, and even then, it's a low chance. Suicune can retaliate with a STAB Surf or Scald, and take it down, while it dies to LO or Wild Charge recoil.
 
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