np: UU Stage 6 - No Surprises

[/B/utterfree]

I agree with the notion that Stoutland should be made Suspect - it is the only thing making Sand really outstanding in UU right now. As mentioned by other people, Stoutland has no potential understudies bar Gligar, who hardly counts in the least.

Sand has to rely on a couple NFE Pokes in order to mainstay in UU, and while one NFE (Gligar) is good, the other (Hippopotas) is not worth banning permanent sand. Mind that both of NFEs are type-redundant (one is Ground, the other Ground/Flying), and Suicune can make a mess of Sand teams if it chose to.

I've considered making a Sand team, but with a catch. Due to my own pragmatism of not using NFE Pokemon (due to an array of reasons involving personal attachment in seeing the fullest potential of my Pokemon - that means evolving them all the way, and giving them that extra boost of happiness that letting them grow up becomes), I have considered using temporary Sand as a personal Suspect Test for Stoutland. Which means I must have a teammate which specializes in setting up Sandstorm. I know - Shuckle!

I might make an RMT or something. I just noticed how powerful Trick Room 'Zong is in OU on my Dark Horse team, and am shivering with anticipation for how hard it can crack the UU metagame. Even so, I must also fry larger fish than Stoutland (Roserade, Yanmega, Bisharp, and Kingdra).

 

[Ace Emerald]

Sand is no doubt a powerful force in the UU metagame, but I'd say that it isn't quite broken at the moment. People are pretty creative these days, and can easily come up with solutions to take down sand teams. For some reason, I haven't been seeing too many Hitmontop, when it is one of the best checks to Stoutland with Technician Fake Out and Mach Punch. It also is a great Rapid Spinner, so I'm not sure why people aren't using it more... I've also found Suicune a great way to deal with sand, as it takes nothing from Gligar's Earthquakes, and Stoutland cannot 2HKO without Stealth Rock support, and even then, it's a low chance. Suicune can retaliate with a STAB Surf or Scald, and take it down, while it dies to LO or Wild Charge recoil.

Sandstorm and passive damage really gets to 'top. Technitop is punished every time your opponent switches to gligar by losing LO and Sand HP. Even if you are using defensive variants, spikes + no recovery really hurts him, and he lacks priority. Even with intimidate, switching into Stoutland is hard. Defensive Top takes between 37.5%-44.4%, which is a good chance to 2HKO with one layer of spikes, as Sandstorm hits before leftovers iirc. Now I'm not saying Hitmontop is bad, Technitop is a great check to hyper offense. Just not a great check to Sand.

 

[SJCrew]

Hitmontop is a terrible check to Stoutland unless it is locked into something other than STAB. On top of taking too much damage from Frustration, it has no recovery and can only switch in once. In fact, even if it switches in on Crunch the first time, the amount of damage it takes with Stealth Rock up each time opens it up to a very likely KO on the next switch-in with Return. If the Stoutland player predicts the Rapid Spin, they can easily stay in and go straight for the 3HKO.

 

[alexwolf]

I have been testing Sunny Day Arcanine with Fire Blast, SolarBeam and MorningSun and, oh boy, it is beautiful against Sand teams!

Fire Blast in sun OHKOes Hippopotas, Stoutland, 2hkoes Empoleon, does 73.95 - 87.42% to Gligar, which means that after 2 SR rounds he is dead, and Solarbeam 2hkoes Milotic/Slowbro/Suicune (thx god people are not using Slowking). That's 4/6 of sand teams easily destroyed! And it's not like Arcanine has shitty bulk or cannot heal, as Intimidate and Morning Sun are godsends!
Or you can simply save your Arcanine for the end, force the opponent to sac his Hippopotas with something that Sand teams have trouble taking, and then simply make his Gligar and Stoutland much easier to face.

Another criminally underused poke/set is defensive Slowking. This thing is a wonderful defensive poke for so many teams, but people just don't see it because they are used to their beloved Slowbro/Milotic/Empoleon. Slowking deals with many top tier threats such as Mew, Kingdra, CM Suicune, MixTini and more, has awesome fire/psychic coverage to go with Scald, can phaze and of 'course the godlike Regenerator. Some of those traits are shared by Slowbro, but Slowbro wishes that he could take on pokes such as SpecsDra, Mew (both NP and the stall breaker), Mixtini, Nidoking and CM Suicune. Slowbro could also run 10 kms in 10 minutes to get a phazing move!

All in all Slowking is an amazing mon in this meta!

 

[Rakan]

I wouldn't say Hitmontop's a terrible check to Stoutland, but I can see where you're coming from. However, Intimidate variants can easily tank more than one hit and OHKO in return with Close Combat, so I'm not sure how Stoutland bests Hitmontop in that situation. I'm fairly certain even Technician variants can survive a Return and KO back with Mach Punch...

 

[kokoloko]

If its bulky Top, Stout needs to hit it once, switch out, then 2HKO next time. If its Technitop, it gets 2HKO'd easily and fails to OHKO with as Stoutland is kinda bulky (Fake Out + Mach does KO though); and even if it did, nothing is preventing doggy from switching out after mauling Top.

Either way, Hitmontop is a shitty mon that would get no usage if it wasn't for it learning Rapid Spin. Even then its pretty bad.

 

[Closetalker]

Something that often goes unmentioned in discussions about Stoutland is what a bulky little fuck he is. 85/90/90 is a really solid defensive spread, for comparison look at a classic bulky attacker, Machamp, who is sitting at 90/80/85. Its often unnecessary but Stoutland can take what he dishes out.

 

[Heysup]

I think - and it's sadly not the first time - we are forgetting that Stoutland does not carry Earthquake or anything remotely capable of dealing with Aggron, Rhyperior, Cobalion, Bisharp, etc. Rhyperior is so fucking dangerous against sand because of his STAB Earthquake, but Aggron can maul down Hippopotas with some prediction (and nothing's stopping you from using LO either, considering you 4x resist Stoutland's shit) and Head Smash your way through.

There's also Froslass and Spiritomb, Froslass can't safely switch in but it can take basically any one hit from Stoutland and set up Spikes. The likely scenario is that you take 0 damage from Return. Sand teams have a ton of trouble dealing with Froslass too because of its Speed, Taunt, and Ice Beam. Spiritomb can CB Pursuit and make Stoutland's days numbered.

 

[Axa]

If you're banning Sand Veil though, you're outright banning Sandslash since that's it's only current ability.

 

[spuds4ever]

Hitmontop is not good to deal with stoutland. If you want to beat stoutland, you need good physical bulk and either a resistance to normal or solid recovery like rhyperior or slowbro respectively. Hitmontop is a bulky spinner and pivot, not a switch-into wall unless you can afford some hefty wish support.

On the topic of sand, while it's a solid play-style, I wouldn't say it's broken. Basically, when you take sand, you have access to a great revenge-killer and a very annoying physical wall at the cost of having to take another not so impressive physical wall and having to cover up the weaknesses they share. That leaves you about 2 slots to use freely if you want to fully use sand. I wouldn't say it's broken. Sand also took a heavy blow when deoxys left as it usually can't afford the bad synergy that frosslass and roserade take with them.

On the topic of countering it, adding on to what heysup said, I'd like to try aggron out myself. Easily takes everything stoutland has and can threatens a 2hko at least on pretty much everything on a sand team with choice band-boosted head smashes and ice punches or properly mess it up with its substiute+magnet rise set.

 

[FlareBlitz]

I think - and it's sadly not the first time - we are forgetting that Stoutland does not carry Earthquake or anything remotely capable of dealing with Aggron, Rhyperior, Cobalion, Bisharp, etc. Rhyperior is so fucking dangerous against sand because of his STAB Earthquake, but Aggron can maul down Hippopotas with some prediction (and nothing's stopping you from using LO either, considering you 4x resist Stoutland's shit) and Head Smash your way through.

There's also Froslass and Spiritomb, Froslass can't safely switch in but it can take basically any one hit from Stoutland and set up Spikes. The likely scenario is that you take 0 damage from Return. Sand teams have a ton of trouble dealing with Froslass too because of its Speed, Taunt, and Ice Beam. Spiritomb can CB Pursuit and make Stoutland's days numbered.

The problem with all of those, except Froslass and Spiritomb (which are good checks, but lose to Crunch / Wild Charge), is that they're all walled to hell by Gligar. Even Rhyperior has a chance of not ohkoing Gligar with CB Ice Punch, meaning it can Roost-stall your ass and switch to something like Empoleon. Leftovers Rhyperior just get Toxic'd.

It seems that Gligar is covering a lot of the same defensive niches that Hippowodon used to cover. Now, I don't mean this as an argument for Stoutland's ban - quite the contrary. I think the fact that sand teams are forced to double, and probably triple up, on redundantly-typed Pokemon makes them much easier to check. It means that they typically have just one Pokemon that lets them handle certain key threats. I know that against sand teams, my number one priority is weakening Bronzong / Empoleon so that Kingdra / Shaymin / Suicune can handle the rest. Stoutland's revenge killing abilities are great, but against one of these it is forced to telegraph itself into predictable attacks, making switching much easier.

Simply put, sand's primary weakness is a complete lack of versatility, and I would encourage those who have trouble with it to force your opponent into difficult positions by their exploiting their tactical inability to exert synergistic pressure. So if you switch in Cobalion against them, you KNOW they have to go Gligar or risk an auto-loss - so take advantage of that by making a double-switch to something that threatens Gligar.

 

[kokoloko]

@guy above Flare: What? Roserade has amazing synergy with sand. In fact, if I was running it, I'd choose Roserade over Deoxys for Spikes any day.

Anyway, the problem I have with sand is not Stoutland. Stoutland is a really fast semi-bulky fucker with godawful coverage, average Attack, and the need to use CB to actually damage stuff. The real problem is the residual damage that Sand brings with it and the fact that it makes Morning Sun, Synthesis, and Moonlight worthless, cutting into the diversity aspect of the game by preventing you from using stuff like Impish Arcanine or Torterra effectively. Sand Veil is another retarded aspect of it but, as I've said in my earlier posts, that's a different issue.

My point is, if there is a problem with sand, its not Stoutland, and therefore I'll most likely be adamantly opposed to suspecting it.

ps. Sableye does a number on sand as it happens to be one of the best Stoutland counters in the game.

 

[spuds4ever]

Ok, so Roserade resists water, but it adds another ice weakness rather than giving a resistance, meaning you have to use more slots to beat things like weavile and such. And that would add even more to the limited flexibility of sand teams.

 

[kokoloko]

It also resists the shit out of special Grass moves, a common weakness among sand teams. Ice moves are much less common, as they are only seen on Water-types, Froslass, and Weavile. Waters fail to beat Roserade regardless while Weavile is a non-issue for Sand because it can't do much with Stoutland around. Not to mention Deoxys got assraped by Froslass and Weavile anyway so...

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Scoopapa]

Not only does Roserade resist water and grass for sand teams but it actually beats most Water- and Grass-types handily, which matters a lot more than just having the resistances on paper. It also deals with Sableye well, and can Rest off Sandstorm damage. Really it's the perfect compliment to Sand. I'm surprised anyone who was around for the reign of Hippowdon would say otherwise when Rose was a key member of the archetypical Hippo/Stout/Rose/Bulky Water core.

 

[FlareBlitz]

@guy above Flare: What? Roserade has amazing synergy with sand. In fact, if I was running it, I'd choose Roserade over Deoxys for Spikes any day.

I'm not sure what that has to do with my post .__.

I know that sand teams have non-rock / ground members, but my point was that they only have one or two. A typical sand team would be hippo / gligar / empoleon / rosie / rhyperior / stoutland. My point was that, given that there is only one real answer to some dangerous threats in this team (Gligar for cobalion, Empoleon for Kingdra, Gligar for Flygon, etc) it is easy to force your opponent to behave predictably and take advantage of his relative inability to make unexpected moves (due to the high risk of doing so).

And defensive Roserade in particular loses to every threat on the list of Pokemon I posted one on one, except Shaymin (which is risky to switch into). Its typing seems like it would be synergistic, but I would say that defensive Roserade is actually pretty useless against offensive teams on Sand. It needs Leftovers recovery to avoid giving things a free turn with Rest and to avoid certain specific 2hkos (such as LO Shaymin Air Slash), and sand cancels that. Moreover, the biggest threats to sand on offensive teams are not bulky waters or grass types, but offensive waters and grass types (think CM Cune, LO Rosie) and defensive Roserade loses to all of these. It can't even wall Fighters with its hilariously bad 60/65 Defense. I would say that its only use on sand teams would be to absorb Toxic Spikes...which half the team doesn't care about.

Defensive Roserade seems like it would theoretically be great against more stallish teams, as it can tank unboosted ice beams with ease and set up spikes...but if we're looking for a good spiker against offensive teams on sand, I would really rather go with Qwilfish. Of course, on my sand team, I don't use a spiker at all.

 

[destinyunknown]

@guy above Flare: What? Roserade has amazing synergy with sand. In fact, if I was running it, I'd choose Roserade over Deoxys for Spikes any day.

Anyway, the problem I have with sand is not Stoutland. Stoutland is a really fast semi-bulky fucker with godawful coverage, average Attack, and the need to use CB to actually damage stuff. The real problem is the residual damage that Sand brings with it and the fact that it makes Morning Sun, Synthesis, and Moonlight worthless, cutting into the diversity aspect of the game by preventing you from using stuff like Impish Arcanine or Torterra effectively. Sand Veil is another retarded aspect of it but, as I've said in my earlier posts, that's a different issue.

My point is, if there is a problem with sand, its not Stoutland, and therefore I'll most likely be adamantly opposed to suspecting it.

ps. Sableye does a number on sand as it happens to be one of the best Stoutland counters in the game.

I just quote this because I wouldn't explain what I think about sand better.
__________________


I have actually used Aggron for some time and it's pretty disappointing really, if anybody has read the RMT I posted some days ago, I said there how inconsistent Aggron is in this metagame. Anyway, my main problem when using it was that it ended being set up fodder for fast and generally ofensive minded teams because it simply can't find opportunities to switch in, which is no surprise with 70 Hp / 50 SDef stats. Add the fact that it can't abuse its physical bulk and resistances, since if you try to switch on things like Weavile you get wrecked by Low Kick and etc, and 180 Def is good but again the x4 weaknesses (or lack of resist) to the most common physical ofensive types just hurt it too much.

On the ''Sand'' topic, Aggron doesn't do that much either. It does make a great switch in for Stoutland but what do you then? Against any sand team, you are just facing Hippopotas/Gligar after switching, which you can't beat even when using CB because they resist Head Smash and let's assume it, Aqua Tail / Ice Punch are not enough because Hippo / Gligar can just stall you and hit with Earthquake (since they will always get a hit in) and just leave Aggron on ko range for anything else. I guess a set with Magnet Rise could work, so I guess I should try that or something, but the lack of power without a boosting item seems a bit disappointing.

 

[kokoloko]

@FlareBlitz - you missed a word lol, my post was actually directed at the post above yours, as indicated by the first few words in my post. :o

 

[/B/utterfree]

In order to guarantee that Stoutland is not the key pivot of Sand... we have to Suspect it. Seems like a bizarre statement, but it makes sense.

If Stoutland is not the key reason Sand is popular and making people whine about it, then once it's banned - we get something else.

If it is the key reason, then Sand will be less popular. After Stoutland's gone, Sand teams will be having trouble getting something to replace it for revengekilling/late-game cleaning. Running two NFEs for Sand is something it must do in UU - what else can we do to nerf Sand completely?

Thing about Roserade is that it's absurdly good. Period. Other than Shaymin, I don't see any other Grassers get used because Roserade monopolizes a slot as a killer of Bulky Waters. Rapid Spinning with Blastoise or Claydol becomes hectic when they will die to Giga Drains/Leaf Storms. Let's not forget Weather Ball (obviously an OO, since weather is not too prominent in UU anymore - that was taken care of with bans to both Drought and to Snover), since Sand is a playstyle Rose is fine to use. Pretty much acts as a Pseudo-Hidden Power for Rain, Sun, and Hail as well (in OU and Ubers), allowing Roserade to be a good partner for Kingdra and Arcanine (who run Rain Dance and Sunny Day, respectively, for their best sets).

Heh, I'm also surprised some of the newcomers to Gen V UU haven't been mentioned much. I still find Yanmega to be alarming, but I suppose I'll have to head down to UU and make a dedicated Yanmega team to prove how lethal it is.

 

[SJCrew]

On the ''Sand'' topic, Aggron doesn't do that much either. It does make a great switch in for Stoutland but what do you then?

Click Heavy Slam. It OHKOs Stoutland, 2HKOs Gligar (Jolly is faster than min Speed Gligar to boot), and 2HKOs Hippopotas.

You are using Heavy Slam, right? It's listed as mandatory in the analysis.

 

[alexwolf]

Click Heavy Slam. It OHKOs Stoutland, 2HKOs Gligar (Jolly is faster than min Speed Gligar to boot), and 2HKOs Hippopotas.

You are using Heavy Slam, right? It's listed as mandatory in the analysis.

If using Jolly then Heavy Slam does only 36.22 - 43.11% to Gligar, which is never a 2hko even after SR and max damage rolls. If using Adamant then Gligar beats you since it can Roost 'till you miss and then 2hko with EQ.

 

[destinyunknown]

Click Heavy Slam. It OHKOs Stoutland, 2HKOs Gligar (Jolly is faster than min Speed Gligar to boot), and 2HKOs Hippopotas.

You are using Heavy Slam, right? It's listed as mandatory in the analysis.

I do use Heavy Slam, but as alexwolf said, if you run jolly you can't 2hko neither Gligar nor Hippopotas (not 100% sure about the last but I'm pretty sure you can't), and if running adamant Gligar outpaces you.

So i'm using CB Aggron right if you were asking that and even considering how much I have always liked Aggron it's a bit underwhelming nowadays.

 

[SJCrew]

Forgive the typo, I meant Head Smash: 45.5% - 53.9%

Or Ice Punch: 61.1% - 73.1%

The only underwhelming thing about Aggron is Head Smash misses. Other than that, most of the tier is at least 3HKOed by Head Smash or 2HKOed by Heavy Slam. And Aggron's bulk is very good if you apply it correctly, such as knowing that weak EQs do not OHKO (Gligar, Hippopotas, Brozong), and that he's a good safeguard against a rampaging Flygon or Kingdra Head Smash. Being a Stoutland counter is icing on the proverbial cake.

 

[alexwolf]

Forgive the typo, I meant Head Smash: 45.5% - 53.9%

Or Ice Punch: 61.1% - 73.1%

The only underwhelming thing about Aggron is Head Smash misses. Other than that, most of the tier is at least 3HKOed by Head Smash or 2HKOed by Heavy Slam. And Aggron's bulk is very good if you apply it correctly, such as knowing that weak EQs do not OHKO (Gligar, Hippopotas, Brozong), and that he's a good safeguard against a rampaging Flygon or Kingdra Head Smash. Being a Stoutland counter is icing on the proverbial cake.

You coulnd't mean Head Smash because in your post you mentioned Stoutland being ohkoed, and Hippo and Gligar being 2hkoed, and Hippo is not 2hkoed by Head Smash.

Also going for the 2hko with Head Smash is not the best idea, since with Sand Veil, Head Smash has 68% chance to hit once, and less than 50% to hit twice...

 

[SJCrew]

Or perhaps I could have meant "Aggron is very capable of 2HKOing every member of a Sand team with minimal prediction on top of countering Stoutland" like I said in the post you quoted. He even 2HKOs Hitmontop. It's so brutal.