Research Week #3: Halo around the sun or moon, rain or snow soon.

[Focus]

I'll test Victini too, I guess. Alt: Karpe Diem

 

[locoghoul]

Meh.

ranking

Like I said, Victini sucks. 100 stats is not cutting it. V-Create in the sun barely 2HKOs Groudon ffs. I tried the scarf set because 100 speed makes him faster than most scarfers but the truth is, he can't revenge shit unless under the sun and against something that doesn't resist fire. Fusion Bolt doesn't 2HKO Kyogre, U-Turn does 30ish% to Mewtwo and Brick Break doesn't even OHKO lead TTar wtf. The other thing is, tying with scarf Palkia means nothing when your strongest attack is Fusion Bolt which is only a 3HKO while Palkia 2HKOs you with Spacial Rend (almost 1HKO with spikes + SR). I'd much rather use scarf Darmanitan in the sun like someone else is already doing than using scarf Victini again. Maybe CB is worth a shot but even then I would much rather use something else.

crappy team

Groudon @ Life Orb Trait: Drought
EVs: 252 Atk / 80 Def / 176 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Earthquake
- Rock Polish
- Fire Punch
- Stone Edge
Victini @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Victory Star
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- U-turn
- V-create
- Fusion Bolt
- Brick Break
Arceus @ Leftovers
Trait: Multitype
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spd
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Will-O-Wisp
- Perish Song
- Recover
- Return
Giratina-O @ Griseous Orb
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 Spd
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Dragon Tail
- Roar
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Dialga @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 240 SDef / 12 Spd
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Fire Blast
- Stealth Rock
- Dragon Pulse
- Roar
Rayquaza @ Life Orb
Trait: Air Lock
EVs: 252 Atk / 40 SAtk / 216 Spd
Naughty Nature (+Atk, -SDef)
- Fire Blast
- Outrage
- Brick Break
- Dragon Dance

 

[Tomahawk]

You need to do your calcs man.

252Atk Victini (Neutral) Fusion Bolt vs 4HP/0Def Leftovers Kyogre (Neutral): 58% - 69% (200 - 236 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
252Atk Victini (Neutral) U-turn vs 4HP/0Def Mewtwo (Neutral): 39% - 46% (140 - 166 HP).

 

[locoghoul]

still proves my point. You can't revenge scarf Kyogre (kyogre will KO you with almost no investment in rain) and bulky 252 HP / 252 Def or even just 252 HP Kyogre (like some specs sets) are NOT 2HKOed. You can't revenge scarf Zekrom, you can't revenge scarf Palkia, you can't revenge non-scarf Terrakion, you can't revenge Rayquaza, you can't revenge Kyogre... Like I said, anything that resists fire is not revenged as it doesn't have enough power to rely on his -otherwise good- coverage moves.

 

[Nova]

Sign me up for this please. My alt will be NovaResearch. Gonna test out Landorus with either Sub+SD or Smack Down

 

[Furai]

locoghoul, I agree that Victini cannot take the Pokemon you have mentioned, but frankly, Victini is able to revenge Scarf Kyogre, as it is fater than it as long as it is running a Jolly nature. Moreover Terrakion can be catched on the switch-in with Zen Headbutt, if it matters a lot to you. One of the more interesting sets I've looked into for Victini though, is Trick Room. It makes Victini bulky enough to take on a +1 Mewtwo as it does not need to invest in Speed, and it makes a great use of its signature move V-create. I'm leaning towards Sun Trick Room after Landorus, hehe.

EDIT:

@Novaray; I think that SubSD with Smack Down is irrelevant. Tyranitar makes an amazing partner for Landorus, has not only does it provide sandstorm and Stealth Rock support, it beats Giratina-O, packs Fire Blast for Skarmory, and Bronzong is pretty much rarely seen. I think I'll try that set now, lol.

All updated!

 

[locoghoul]

locoghoul, I agree that Victini cannot take the Pokemon you have mentioned, but frankly, Victini is able to revenge Scarf Kyogre, as it is fater than it as long as it is running a Jolly nature.

Kyogre switches into something. Assuming SR is in play, Kyogre takes 12.5% damage.
Kyogre kills something/you sac something/etc.
Scarf Jolly Victini comes into the field. I'm going to assume no hazards are on your field just because I'm nice.
Victini uses its most powerful attack: Fusion Bolt.
Kyogre survives the hit (2HKO with SR on play), Kyogre kills with Surf/Hydro Pump/Bubblebeam in the rain.

Seriously, if SR is on your field, Thunder might kill Victini before he "revenges" Kyogre.

 

[Tomahawk]

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Team

I've actually found Victini to be pretty useful. The best thing about it is being a reliable Mewtwo switchin, and it can then OHKO it with V-Create. If you can provide good sun support, it works really well. If it's raining, it kinda sucks. However, in the sun it has much more power than other Choice Scarfers. For example, V-Create does 70 - 83% to bulky Calm Mind Arceus while offensive versions take 81 - 96%. Compare this to Palkia, which does 35 - 41% to bulky Arceus with Spacial Rend, which after a Calm Mind lowers to 23 - 27%. The thing that bothered me most though is how weak it is to hazards. Stealth Rock hits it double, Spikes hits it, Toxic Spikes hits it. It gets worn down quite easily, so you need Rapid Spin support which is really hard with all those Giratina(-O)s and Ghost Arceuses running around, especially considering sun can really only use Forretress (as Kabutops, Tentacruel, and Excadrill are all rather lackluster in sun).

 

[Furai]

@locoghoul; Your definiton of Revenge Kill is wrong. A revenge is done after a Pokemon has fainted, or after the opponent has switched a so-called counter into your Pokemon. Such as, Choice Scarf Kyogre to Choice Scarf Victini, which thinks it can outspeed it but gets 2HKOed by Fusion Bolt on the switch-in. I certainly do agree that Kyogre messes things for Victini, but it needs to be a little bit bulkier to fully counter it. Also lol, Bubblebeam


Updated, Toma! Good job!

 

[locoghoul]

@locoghoul; Your definiton of Revenge Kill is wrong. A revenge is done after a Pokemon has fainted, or after the opponent has switched a so-called counter into your Pokemon. Such as, Choice Scarf Kyogre to Choice Scarf Victini, which thinks it can outspeed it but gets 2HKOed by Fusion Bolt on the switch-in. I certainly do agree that Kyogre messes things for Victini, but it needs to be a little bit bulkier to fully counter it. Also lol, Bubblebeam


Updated, Toma! Good job!

Who is switching scarf Kyogre into a Victini that is locked in with Fusion Bolt? Everyone knows 100 stats pokes I presume. If Victini is supposed to revenge kill Kyogre then it should be able to come after something has died and actually kill Kyogre before it gets killed. That's not the case. Like you already know, Fusion Bolt 2HKOs which means it can't revenge kill it unless Kyogre has less than 60%. I never said Kyogre was a counter to Victini. I said Victini can't revenge kill Kyogre (not even the weakest 4 HP scarf/specs versions).

 

[Nova]

@Furai, I meant I will either use the Sub+SD or the Smack Down set, not smack down on a set with sub ;)

 

[Furai]

Hey guys, I've also broken the Hall of Fame Bronze Silver benchmark!

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Team

Tyranitar (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 76 Atk / 180 SDef
Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Stealth Rock
- Pursuit
- Fire Blast
- Low Kick

Excadrill (F) @ Air Balloon
Trait: Sand Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Rapid Spin

Landorus (M) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Sand Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- U-turn
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Giratina @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SDef
Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Dragon Tail

Skarmory (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Keen Eye
EVs: 248 HP / 128 Def / 128 SDef / 4 Spd
Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Spikes
- Roost
- Taunt
- Whirlwind

Arceus-Grass @ Meadow Plate
Trait: Multitype
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Recover
- Calm Mind
- Grass Knot
- Ice Beam

Landorus is great. Beating Mewtwo, Darkrai, and Deoxys-A, while still beating comon Choice Scarf users and Dragon Dancers such as Palkia, Salamence, and Rayquaza is remarkable. Tyranitar is also the best Giratina-O killer (unless the extremely rare Earthquake Giratina-O), allowing Landorus to weaken stuff for Excadrill to sweep. Calm Mind Grass Arceus is also fucking great, it's much better than the support one (atleast for this team). Ho-Oh is kinda a dick, but with Giratina, Tyranitar's Sand Stream and Stealth Rock, Landorus's Stone Edge, and Excadrill's Rock Slide I'd say its covered. Grass Arceus also saves me from Calm Mind Kyogre—which has gotten WAY more common, Lugia, and Giratina.

 

[Theorymon]

Alright, so I'm probably not going to have too much time to ladder with these Pokemon (mainly because Im testing other stuff atm!), but that sure doesn't stop me from posting!

I've used Victini before, and I found it to be a pretty competent Pokemon. The biggest problem of course, was the fact that it has to switch out a lot, so like Reshiram, Victini LOATHES hazards. I found Scarf to be a decent revenge killer. The biggest selling point for Scarf is obviously the fact that in the sun, V-Create OHKOs Mewtwo, while Mewtwo fails to KO Victini switch ins. Scarf V-create also does 70.5% - 83.1% to max HP Arceus, or 77.3% - 91.2% with Adamant (a OHKO after SR and Spikes), while CB was so freakishly powerful that some Palkia were taking over 50% in the sun o_O. As for Trick Room Victini, this is pretty much the reason why I even use Sun Trick Room teams in the first place, though it usually isn't the Pokemon setting up Trick Room, it usually comes in and mauls a Pokemon after Dialga or Palkia set it up. To give you a picture on how powerful this thing is, LO Brave V-create OHKOs max HP Arceus in the sun!

I'm not going to comment much on Landorus, except the fact that the MAIN reason I'm interested in it is because of U-turn. I'm thinking about putting it on some sort of Ubers volt turn team with Zekrom and Scizor, but I'm not sure if I have enough time to make such a team. I can't deny that the Spikes and Toxic Spikes immunity is a nice selling point over say, Groudon, but make sure you aren't using it as something Groudon, Garchomp, Ground Arceus, and Excadrill can do better!

Finally, lets talk about Kyurem... This is by far the Pokemon on the list I'm the most skeptical about, and in fact is a major reason why I wanted it on this research week! I did test it a while ago (the sets being Specs, Scarf, and Life Orb), and was completely underwhelmed by it. It wasn't that Kyurem was awful on its own... it was more like I felt it was completely outclassed by Rayquaza and Palkia in almost every situation imaginable. The only really benefits Kyurem provided in my experience was slamming Grass Arceus hard (and Rayquaza gets V-create now...) and not minding Hail. For those of you who are testing Kyurem, I want you to ask yourselves two questions, and maybe even post the answers here.

1. Is there anyway or situation where Kyurem is a better choice than Palkia or Rayquaza?

2. Are Kyurem's small niches really worth say, an analysis?

I'm guessing several of you are gonna say "But there's Hail!", but my main issue with that is in my expereince, Abomasnow uses its Hail rather selfishly (mostly for Kyogre and doing more damage with subseed). If that's Kyurem's main niche, then I'm really skeptical if Kyurem is really worth it over other better offensive choices like Rayquaza, especially since Hail isn't the easiest weather to keep up with Abomasnow's SR weak. But maybe I'm not looking at this the right way since I haven't used Kyurem in a long time, so please enlighten me if you think Kyurem really does have what it takes for Ubers!

 

[shrang]

I think the biggest catch of all for Kyurem is his access to STAB Ice. Maybe it's just me, but I personally think Ice is probably the best attacking type in Ubers at the moment, simply because how many common walls are weak to it (Groudon, Giratina and Lugia are the biggest ones). It's also hitting Ferrothorn neutrally, unlike Palkia who's going to have to predict with Fire Blast (and in the rain, too, a lot of the time). Since most people's Steel-type these days IS Ferrothorn or Skarmory, then Kyurem is having a pretty good time with his two STABs (just Draco Meteor the Water-type switch-in and you're good to start spamming Ice Beam / Blizzard). I use Specs with Hail support, but most of the time, Kyurem doesn't need Hail, since I run Blizzard / Ice Beam, and Ice Beam is strong enough to hurt most things anyway.

tl;dr - Focus on Kyurem's access to STAB Ice.

 

[Focus]

Yeah, STAB Ice Beam (or Blizzard I guess) is definitely the only reason to ever use Kyurem. Otherwise, it's going to play like a crappy Dialga, Palkia, or Rayquaza. It is such a shame that is movepool is so specific. Having no Fire, Ground, Electric, or boosting moves is just mind-boggling (fingers crossed for BW2). To be thorough, I might throw together a hail team to see how it performs there for myself. If only I had a clue how to build a team, maybe I could find a real niche for it. So far, I would probably not use it on a serious team, but it is not a total dead weight, either.

Edit 1: On the Victini front, I just haven't been able to find its groove so far. Scarf can revenge-kill and keep offensive momentum, Band can do decent damage every once in a while. Scarf has been working better overall for me so far. Final Gambit is cool. I sometimes would rather take out an opponent right off the bat, because I can almost certainly prepare for playing a Pokemon down better than my opponent can. That is more for fun than for business, though. All I have left to look at is Trick Room, and I frankly have no experience making TR teams.

Edit 2: Speaking of Victini,

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and my team is here

 

[Theorymon]

I've been testing Swords Dance Landorus for several hours today, and it's actually far exceeded my expectations! Being immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes has made a far bigger difference than I thought, so despite Landorus's meh defenses for Ubers, having these immunities plus being neutral to Stealth Rock dramatically boosts it's lifetime when compared to stuff like Garchomp! As a Swords Dancer, Landorus also has another unexpected ace in the hole: Grass Knot. Even with no Special Attack investment and a Jolly nature, Grass Knot was still doing over 70% to max HP Groudon. Combine this with the Earthquake immunity, and you have a huge selling point over Terrakion, Groudon, and Garchomp: easily beating Groudon with little drawback!

I have also tried Rock Polish over Grass Knot. While its sad to lose one of Landorus's main trump cards, it's still pretty good! Thanks to Sand Force, under the sand, RP Landorus can actually do more damage than RP Groudon! And of course, its always nice to screw over potential revenge killers like Mewtwo. Finally, I plan on testing out Substitute to beat Dragon Tailers like Groudon and Giratina.

So in summary, the reasons that I'm currently finding Landorus to be pretty awesome in Ubers are: great with dealing with the hazards infested Ubers metagame, plenty of power under the sand, and having unique qualities like being able to beat Groudon as an SDer!

 

[Pancham]

I've been playing Ubers routinely today, and, honestly, the only one of these mons that caused me any trouble was Landorus. Although, to be frank, that's only because I was testing a team that I'd not completed yet.

Victini is susceptible to TSpikes and Spikes, weak to SR, only has one moveset I can think of that could work, that being Choice Scarf, and even that is probably outclassed by some other mon with better typing and a better movepool.

Kyurem has the worst defensive typing I can think of. Though, it's movepool is slightly bearable, not to mention it does pack quite the punch with a Specs, or even LO, Draco Meteor. However, I'd rather use Palkia, or even Giratina-o, in the team slot I would have filled with Kyurem.

I'll make a team and test Landorus, though, using Finnik Odair.

 

[jrp]

hit 1300 with the team, I guess I made silver then :p

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Same statement about Kyurem as in my original post xD


EDIT hit 1350, gold then xD

Hide

 

[Focus]

Might as well try out Landorus, too. Alt: Tony Balogna.

 

[Furai]

All updated. I'm just saying guys, you only got until tomorrow!

 

[jrp]

I was above the gold threshold, you put me in silver xD

anyway Imma try landorus. Alt will be JRP3 (because I'm creative)

 

[Furai]

Oops, got that. Thanks!

 

[HSA]

trying kyurem

alt is IcyColdMofo

 

[Furai]

Research Week #3 is over! Fiction. won it again~