Goodstuffs VGC 2012

[LudiImpact]

Hey, I made this new and good VGC 2012 Goodstuffs team. Thank you for all rates and comments!

(Previously Scizor) Is still be discussed, so I will not really post a description.

Aerodactyl (M) @ Rock Gem Trait: Unnerve
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Rock Slide
- Aerial Ace
- Taunt
- Protect

Latios (M) @ Dragon Gem​

Trait: Levitate​

EVs: 4 HP / 4 Def / 248 SAtk / 252 Spd​

Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)​

- Draco Meteor​

- Psyshock​

- Energy Ball (Hidden Power [Fire])​

- Protect​

Latios is a very popular pokemon this year. I run Psyhock to OHKO common Fighting Types instead of Thunderbolt. Hidden Power Fire is mainly for just Abomasnow and Metagross and other fire weak pokemon. Dragon Gem Draco Meteor is to do major damage on Volcarona, Garchomp, and Hydreigon.

Zapdos @ Electric Gem
​

Trait: Pressure​

EVs: 140 HP / 252 SAtk / 116 Spd​

Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)​

- Thunderbolt​

- Hidden Power [Ice]​

- Heat Wave​

- Tailwind​

Officially the most used pokemon in this metagame and it's obvious why. Electric Gem Thunderbolt OHKOes Jellicent and all water pokemon. I run Hidden Power Ice because this team lacks Ice-Type moves to KO Dragon Types. Heat Wave to crit down on Metagross and OHKO Abomasnow unless it's sashed. Zapdos also carries Tailwind to maximize my speed and just in case I am slower than my opponent.

Hitmontop (M) @ Fight Gem​

Trait: Intimidate​

EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spd​

Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)​

- Fake Out​

- Close Combat​

- Sucker Punch​

- Detect​

Along Zapdos, there's Hitmontop. Fake Out is a given move. Fight Gem Close Combat OHKOes Tyranitar and does major damage to fighting-weak pokemon. Sucker Punch is mainly for KOing and doing damage to Jellicent, Cresselia, Chandelure, and Reuniclus. Detect is to last an extra turn.

Tyranitar (M) @ Focus Sash (Chople Berry)​

Trait: Sand Stream​

EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spd​

Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)​

- Crunch​

- Rock Slide​

- Low Kick​

- Protect​

Tyranitar is another Pokemon to deal Super-Effective Damage. Chople Berry is to level-down CCs from Hitmontop. Crunch to KO all Dark type pokemon like Cresselia, Chandelure, and Jellicent. Rock Slide is really to do damage to Zapdos and to try and flinch the opponent. Tyranitar is mainly to cancel other weathers, and to sweep in the back.

Cresselia (F) @ Chesto Berry​

Trait: Levitate​

EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef​

Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)​

- Rest​

- Ice Beam (used to be Reflect)
​

- Psychic​

- Thunder Wave


Cresselia is a favored Pokemon to me and fits right into this team due to bulk and many other reasons. The main purpose is to start Cress with Hitmontop and pretty much spread Thunder Wave to everyone to paralyze. Then, I set up Reflect. After, I either Psychic to Pokemon who are weak, Rest to bring back HP and wake up with Chesto Berry, or start the Thunder Wave cycle over again.




Thanks to everyone who helps! Also, let me know if I should make things better like descriptions. Thanks once again!
​

 

[pokemaster649]

Ok, your team seems pretty solid. But, there are a few problems.

First thing that I notice is that your latios has hp fire. The problems I see that hp fire usually makes latios's speed iv a little slower than most latios. I suggest get a new one and replace hp fire with sub (prevent you from being sucker punched or being status conditioned). That strategy kinda worked out for me.

Tyranitar is far better with focus sash than chople berry, since close combat is one of the most common moves.

For your cress, I think your team is fine without reflect. Maybe try icy wind or ice beam.

I hoped I helped!

 

[Admiral Kuzan]

Hey, there LudiImpact! I'm also preparing for Nats, hope to see you there! Great team, but there is always room for improvement....

The very first thing I notice is that Latios has Hidden Power [Fire]. Latios will lose speed ties to opposing Timid Latios, so I suggest Substitute or Hidden Power [Ground] > Hidden Power [Fire]. Substitute prevents you from being Sucker Punched, (like my boy pokemaster649 said), and HP Ground simply gives you more coverage. Trust me, HP Fire isn't a good choice; there will be times where you have to rely on speed ties against opposing Latias, Latios, and Gengar. Although, you have the option of giving Latios Grass Knot, instead of having to resort to Draco Meteor to take out Gastrodon and opposing Tyranitars. Here are the calcs for Latios:

Gastrodon (Max HP)
Grass Knot: (75.2% - 89.9%)
Draco Meteor: (64.7% - 76.1%)

Tyranitar (Max HP in Sand)
Grass Knot: (44.4% - 53.1%)
Draco Meteor: (38.2% - 45.4%)

As you can see, Grass Knot is more effective, but of course, Draco Meteor should be part of the moveset. I'm just saying Grass Knot is also a good choice over HP fire. A Grass Knot + Dragon Gem Draco Meteor 2HKOs Max HP TTar in Sand.

As for your own Tyranitar, Chople Berry will help survive a CC from Max Attack Hitmontop, but if you find that Chople Berry isn't working for you against other mons, switch it with Focus Sash. But I recommend you keep the Chople Berry, for the time being.

Reflect is OK on Cresselia, just because it ups your defense, but Ice Beam is also a good choice for coverage againist Dragon-types, if Latios and Zapdos are out.

Other than that, your team looks GREAT! You'll do well in Nats!

Hope I helped!

 

[CakesOfSpan]

Just a quick note about adding a grass move to Latios, Energy Ball is considered the better choice for the following reasons:

248 SpAtk Latios (+SpAtk) Energy Ball vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Gastrodon: 110.09% - 130.28%

248 SpAtk Latios (+SpAtk) Energy Ball vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Gastrodon: 82.57% - 99.08%

And against another popular, who's only weakness is grass:

248 SpAtk Latios (+SpAtk) Energy Ball vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Rotom-W: 61.15% - 72.61%

Although compared to DD Draco Meteor...

248 SpAtk Dragon Gem Latios (+SpAtk) Draco Meteor vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Rotom-W: 118.47% - 139.49%

Energy Ball can work, though with your team it seems hard to justify unless you are really having issues with rain teams or something,

Furthermore, unless Latios is carrying some crazy set like HP fighting, any investment in trying to stop Tyranitar seems silly. Seeing as you have Scizor, Low Kick Tyranitar, and Hitmontop, you should be fine.

Also, I would second the idea of running Sash over Chople seeing as it lowers your risk (and slightly lowers your reward.) Sash ensures that Tyranitar avoids the outright OHKO, whereas Chople does not. The biggest downside to Sash is damage from Hail, or priority moves that could not OHKO if you had lived with Chople.

Overall everything looks pretty standard, which isn't a bad thing. However, seeing as you are preparing for Nationals it is always a good idea to have a trick or two up your sleeves in the form of some not-so-common spreads, moves, or even mons. Unfortunately I don't have any specific suggestions, but you have plenty of time to test new ideas out. Cheers!

 

[Admiral Kuzan]

Just a quick note about adding a grass move to Latios, Energy Ball is considered the better choice for the following reasons:

248 SpAtk Latios (+SpAtk) Energy Ball vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Gastrodon: 110.09% - 130.28%

248 SpAtk Latios (+SpAtk) Energy Ball vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Gastrodon: 82.57% - 99.08%

And against another popular, who's only weakness is grass:

248 SpAtk Latios (+SpAtk) Energy Ball vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Rotom-W: 61.15% - 72.61%

Although compared to DD Draco Meteor...

248 SpAtk Dragon Gem Latios (+SpAtk) Draco Meteor vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Rotom-W: 118.47% - 139.49%

Energy Ball can work, though with your team it seems hard to justify unless you are really having issues with rain teams or something,

Furthermore, unless Latios is carrying some crazy set like HP fighting, any investment in trying to stop Tyranitar seems silly. Seeing as you have Scizor, Low Kick Tyranitar, and Hitmontop, you should be fine.

Also, I would second the idea of running Sash over Chople seeing as it lowers your risk (and slightly lowers your reward.) Sash ensures that Tyranitar avoids the outright OHKO, whereas Chople does not. The biggest downside to Sash is damage from Hail, or priority moves that could not OHKO if you had lived with Chople.

Overall everything looks pretty standard, which isn't a bad thing. However, seeing as you are preparing for Nationals it is always a good idea to have a trick or two up your sleeves in the form of some not-so-common spreads, moves, or even mons. Unfortunately I don't have any specific suggestions, but you have plenty of time to test new ideas out. Cheers!

Ooooo, Energy Ball is also a great choice, but you have to consider Grass Knot against other heavy Pokemon.
Also, Grass Knot and Energy Ball are good choices to replace HP Fire, just because it's good coverage.

 

[Ravix]

Substitute is your go to move, your other pokemon counter the threats you listed above. Dragon Gem boosted Draco should ohko gastro most of the time anyway.

Your Zapdos lacks protect(detect?), I would advise against that. Hp Ice is unnecessary on Zapdos with your current line up, especially if you add in icy wind/Ice beam to Cresselia (Like you should).

Other than that, a strong standard team comp.

 

[Admiral Kuzan]

Substitute is your go to move, your other pokemon counter the threats you listed above. Dragon Gem boosted Draco should ohko gastro most of the time anyway.

Your Zapdos lacks protect(detect?), I would advise against that. Hp Ice is unnecessary on Zapdos with your current line up, especially if you add in icy wind/Ice beam to Cresselia (Like you should).

Other than that, a strong standard team comp.

Cress should have Ice Beam > Icy Wind, seeing that she has T-Wave in her moveset.

Zapdos is fine without Detect, considering it has Tailwind. Keep HP Ice; Cresselia isn't always the best go-to Pokemon for coverage with Ice-type attacks, mainly because she's more of a supporter. But it's good to give Cress Ice Beam. Zapdos is more offensive, so keep HP Ice.

 

[pokemaster649]

As for your own Tyranitar, Chople Berry will help survive a CC from Max Attack Hitmontop, but if you find that Chople Berry isn't working for you against other mons, switch it with Focus Sash. But I recommend you keep the Chople Berry, for the time being.

I tried chople berry ttar myself, but he can't even survive a close combat from what I experience (chople berry is still good, but I do recommend focus sash as it works wonders with ttar.)

 

[pokemaster649]

Ooooo, Energy Ball is also a great choice, but you have to consider Grass Knot against other heavy Pokemon.
Also, Grass Knot and Energy Ball are good choices to replace HP Fire, just because it's good coverage.

That is actually what I would not recommend, still suggesting you should replace hp fire with sub.

 

[Ravix]

Say what you want, but bulk > offense in VGC. You shouldn't be having any need for HP Ice on Zapdos. Giving Cress an Ice move would just make having it on Zapdos Laughable. You don't have a dragon weakness at all. He doesn't need Coverage with his Ice moves on Cress, Icy wind just let's you outspeed your opponents. (Including opposing Latios, giving you the opportunity to run HP fire) If you feel you really need it. I honestly think Hp ground would give you the most coverage, as you don't have any ground moves on your team. (Hp ground does the same as Hp fire against opposing Metagross) You have Zapdos for fire moves.

I would also recommend a Yache + specially defensive set on Zapdos, unless you were running all of those speed ev's for an important reason? 32 EV's will give you enough to outrun uninvested Meta and Aboma.

Speed ties are 50% anyways, why not get the edge with both Tailwind and Icy wind available to you. Swap Reflect for Light Screen and T-wave for Icy wind. Imo.

 

[pokemaster649]

Say what you want, but bulk > offense in VGC. You shouldn't be having any need for HP Ice on Zapdos. Giving Cress an Ice move would just make having it on Zapdos Laughable. He doesn't need Coverage with his Ice moves on Cress, Icy wind just let's you outspeed your opponents. (Including opposing Latios, giving you the opportunity to run HP fire) If you feel you really need it. I honestly think Hp ground would give you the most coverage, as you don't have any ground moves on your team.

Speed ties are 50% anyways, why not get the edge with both Tailwind and Icy wind available to you. Swap Reflect for Light Screen and T-wave for Icy wind. Imo.

I think you are underestimating hp ice on zapdos, since some use this and it goes pretty good (I even tried it myself, and it's pretty good). I would highly not suggest replacing t-wave for icy wind (replacing reflect with ice beam or icy wind preferably).

 

[LudiImpact]

Thanks to all who have helped! I'm about to edit the team in RED. I'll will also post why I made the decision right after I edit.

 

[Ravix]

I think you are underestimating hp ice on zapdos, since some use this and it goes pretty good (I even tried it myself, and it's pretty good). I would highly not suggest replacing t-wave for icy wind (replacing reflect with ice beam preferably).

Not to be rude, but what does Hp Ice give Zapdos that his team cannot already take care of?
If you're that opposed to running protect(Detect) on zapdos, then run Hp grass. Hp ice is pointless.

Also, what does T-wave give his team over Icy wind? It not only makes him more taunt vulnerable but misses out on slowing down opponents with ground typing (+ it's not a spread move)

 

[pokemaster649]

Also, what does T-wave give his team over Icy wind? It not only makes him more taunt vulnerable but misses out on slowing down opponents with ground typing (+ it's not a spread move)

Well, taunt is not normally used in vgc, so you don't have to worried about that. Plus, I said you can replace reflect with icy wind. Thunder wave always gives me the advantage at speed and it's really useful (despite that you can't use it against ground types).

 

[Ravix]

Icy wind gives you the advantage with speed.

Also, who told you taunt wasn't widely used? They lied to your face.

 

[LudiImpact]

Guys, Guys, Guys, don't argue. That makes it worse.
Now back to the team. On Latios, I changed Hidden Power Fire cause I forgot about speed ties (lol) to Energy Ball for better coverage on Gastrodon and others.
The Chople Berry was changed to Focus Sash as I see how it still doesn't live through Gemed CC.
Lastly, I changed Reflect to Ice Beam on Cresselia. I honestly haven't seen any difference with it or without and added Ice Beam.

 

[pokemaster649]

Icy wind gives you the advantage with speed.

Also, who told you taunt wasn't widely used? They lied to your face.

Nobody told me, I just knew. With all of my experiences of vgc 2010 and 2011 (I even watched the battle videos), I have never usually see taunt in usage in the pleasanton regional and the other battles. Also, I have read warstories of how they beaten their opponents (sometimes explained in details). Icy wind and t-wave have both the same affect (excluding the immunity of ground types, and t-wave halves the speed).

 

[Ravix]

Guys, Guys, Guys, don't argue. That makes it worse.
Now back to the team. On Latios, I changed Hidden Power Fire cause I forgot about speed ties (lol) to Energy Ball for better coverage on Gastrodon and others.
The Chople Berry was changed to Focus Sash as I see how it still doesn't live through Gemed CC.
Lastly, I changed Reflect to Ice Beam on Cresselia. I honestly haven't seen any difference with it or without and added Icy Wind.

I still say ground, you should be switching to Scizor versus Tyranitar anyway.

Why Ice beam and Icy wind? That's a bit redundant.

Nobody told me, I just knew. With all of my experiences of vgc 2010 and 2011 (I even watched the battle videos), I have never usually see taunt in usage in the pleasanton regional. Also, I have read warstories of how they beaten their opponents (sometimes explained in details). Icy wind and t-wave have both the same affect (excluding the immunity of ground types, and t-wave halves the speed).

Oh sorry, I didn't realize I was speaking to an EXPERIENCED veteran. Icy wind also hit both opponents and gives him an ice type move, making it the better choice. One speed drop is plenty enough to allow his pokemon to out-speed his opponents.

 

[LudiImpact]

oops, i meant that ice beam to mean icy wind

 

[Ravix]

oops, i meant that ice beam to mean icy wind

But that leaves me wondering why you have both T-wave and Icy wind. Haha

They both serve the same function, one is just better for your team.

The Chople Berry was changed to Focus Sash as I see how it still doesn't live through Gemed CC.Wind.

Have you considered using counter instead of low kick? Since you're using focus sash.

 

[pokemaster649]

Oh sorry, I didn't realize I was speaking to an EXPERIENCED veteran.

Don't be sarcastic. How about this, have both icy wind and thunder wave. It went pretty good, since I used it in the pleasanton regionals.

 

[LudiImpact]

But that leaves me wondering why you have both T-wave and Icy wind. Haha

They both serve the same function, one is just better for your team.

Well, T-Wave also paralyzes which can save you if your opponent gets paralyzed. I'm gonna get rid of wind put ice beam

 

[LudiImpact]

sorry to double post but this needs it's own post cause it's important.
Stop arguing. This isn't Argue about someone's team(AAST). If you have some disagreements take it to the VM or PM. Please

 

[pokemaster649]

sorry to double post but this needs it's own post cause it's important.
Stop arguing. This isn't Argue about someone's team(AAST). If you have some disagreements take it to the VM or PM. Please

Sorry, anyway, I don't think you need anymore changes.

 

[Ravix]

sorry to double post but this needs it's own post cause it's important.
Stop arguing. This isn't Argue about someone's team(AAST). If you have some disagreements take it to the VM or PM. Please

If you can't take criticism or acknowledge that there might be disagreements, then you shouldn't be posting an RMT or posting in one. You're not even the recipient of said arguing, I don't see why you are complaining since you posted here asking for help. If you wanted one person's advice specifically you should have been the one to PM or VM. This is a public forum.

Defend and explain your reasoning behind suggestions or don't post them at all. I'm not saying I'm right about everything, but I am saying that you have not given an explanation as to why your moveset would work better.


~Completely disregarding above comments, I still support the use of a more specially defensive Zapdos with Yache berry.