BW2 Changes in RU

[Honko]

(format stolen from Django Reinhart)

Over the past few days a huge amount of information regarding the new Pokemon games has been released, meaning us competitive players can finally get a glimpse of what the new metagame will actually look like. These changes will be available on a simulator ASAP, but for now lets discuss the effects of stuff we know has been released and will be available! Discussion on potential releases should still remain in this thread.

So this is what we currently know:

• Move Tutors
• New Level-Up moves
• TMs
• A whole load of Dream World abilities are coming out, e.g. Regenerator Amoonguss

Here's my thoughts on some of the big RU changes:

Two of the very best physical walls just got even better. Cofagrigus gets Pain Split, erasing its only real flaw (lack of recovery other than Rest) and making it the undisputed best defensive spinblocker in RU. Tangrowth gets Synthesis, allowing it to stay in and wall attackers that previously could have forced it out with 3HKOs. Will RU's physical attackers be able to overcome these improvements to two walls that were already nearly impossible to beat without super effective moves? More importantly, will people finally stop using Dusknoir now?

Moltres now learns Hurricane from level-up. Rain-troll sets aside, this makes it nearly unwallable. LO Hurricane 2HKOes Slowking after SR 100% of the time. If you can stomach the low accuracy of its dual 120 BP STABs, LO SubRoost should be amazing. Will Moltres finally get the usage it deserves? Will Lanturn or other niche Pokemon rise with it?

RU's Dragons got some nice new toys to play with. The biggest boost is probably Fraxure, who finally has some coverage moves now in Superpower, Low Kick, and Aqua Tail. We might finally have a viable Dragon Dancing Dragon! Druddigon and Zweilous also improved as wallbreakers; Zweilous gets Superpower and Aqua Tail to hit Steels with, and Druddigon gets Sheer Force Fire Punch. Druddigon also gets Stealth Rock now, allowing it to run a very Swampert-esque tank set. Will we finally see some real Dragon offense in RU?

Speaking of Stealth Rock, Golurk is now the only Ghost-type in the game that can set up those sneaky stones. It also gained access to Drain Punch and the elemental punches, giving it ridiculous coverage and power with Iron Fist. Golurk has mostly been a disappointment since dropping back into RU a few months ago, but this should bring it back to being one of the most interesting Pokemon in the tier.

A few other things that probably won't shake up the meta, but will be fun to try:

- Qwilfish can now use Pain Split with Intimidate. Now it has 7 moves it wants on the utility set instead of just 6! I imagine Spikes / Waterfall / Pain Split / Filler will be the new standard, with filler being one of T-Spikes, T-Wave, or T-aunt.
- Slowking and Jynx can now use Trick with their DW abilities, giving them another possible tool for Choice sets.
- Slowking also gets Aqua Tail and Drain Punch with Regenerator now...CurseKing time!
- Mandibuzz learns Foul Play. As if it wasn't annoying enough already, now it can actually do damage.
- Archeops and Braviary now learn Roost. Will bird offense make a comeback?
- Miltank can now use Stealth Rock and the elemental punches with Sap Sipper. Which ability will be the standard now?
- Ferroseed can now use Stealth Rock, Spikes, and Leech Seed on the same set. But is that worth becoming even bigger set-up bait?
- Klinklang now learns Wild Charge from TM. Most of RU's Steels will still wall it easily, but at least it can get past Poliwrath easier.
- Armaldo can use Aqua Tail with Swift Swim.
- Dragonair can use RestTalk with Marvel Scale.
- Prankster Volbeat with Tail Glow + Tailwind + Baton Pass for the ultimate setter-upper.
- Combusken can use ThunderPunch with Speed Boost. Watch out!
- Heatmor learns Giga Drain, ThunderPunch, Superpower, and Low Kick. It is now unquestionably the best Fire-type in the game.
- Stunfisk learns Stealth Rock! Will it ever return to its former glory?
- Charizard learns Roost. Who cares?

Try to keep the discussion to the Pokemon that are available in RU now. While there will almost certainly be some tier changes eventually, those won't happen until several months from now, so let's focus on what we'll have until then.

 

[Griff]

hitmonlee is going to be near useless with so much cofagrigus running around. it literally can't do shit.

 

[Double01]

Perhaps a CM+Pain Split Cofagrigus will rise now that it won't have to rely on rest to recovery. Maybe this set will be more popular than the Np+Tr set.

Other things that I will try...
- Sap Sipper Miltank which will be yet another check to lilligant.
- Marvel Scale RestTalk Dragonair actually looks quite the bitch to deal with.
- Choice Scarf Jynx was something I have been wanting to try and now with trick it can be a decent scarf user.

Although Druddigon get SR it still doesn't get no DD! Comon gamefreak!
Also I'm dissappinted with klinklang only getting wild charge and not eq. So steelix will still wall klinklang to hell and back.

 

[deluge]

By the way, Mandubuzz does learn Nasty Plot and it got both Dark Pulse and Heat Wave as tutors. As we know, it's SpA is absolutely abyssmal but it's also impossible to kill lol. It may actually be able to sit there and boost to dangerous levels while roosting of its opponents vain attempts to damage it. I'm thinking Nasty Plot, Dark Pulse, Heat Wave/Taunt, Roost.

 

[lars]

Not to be a negative nelly, but Cofagrigus is sure to rise to UU.

with Golurk and Druddigon getting SR, I'll certainly be trying them out for my hazards

(Golurk can't beat -almost any- spinners, but spinners need to be careful of what the switch into. Drain Punch is a very nice addition as well and I'd assume that with modest investment it could OHKO any cryogonal set.

so Substitute on the switch, then damage the spinner or lay down rocks, I think this set is promising.

I have doubts Moltres will rise to UU, but it has the tools to do it now. Hurricane bumps it to a top 3 tier threat.

Also so many things got trick, I'm looking forward to trying out some Jynx and Sigilyph trick sets (mostly for surprise factor), but weakness to SR is a bit of a let down, but Sigi is at least immune to spikes...

I think I might actually try Cursking... I don't expect it to be all that good though.

Archeops is better, but still too frail.

I might add more later, but there is plenty of testing to do.

Oh and thanks GF, Muk got nothing...

 

[alexwolf]

Sigi is at least immune to spikes...

Magic Guard?

 

[Double01]

I be interested to use something like a choice specs/scarf tinted lens sigilyph once GF releases tinted lens sigi of course. Because has good sp atk and speed and even though sigilyph is losing arguably one of the best abilities in the game sigilyph can become a dangerous wall breaker with tinted lens.

 

[alexwolf]

Also now that DW Alomomola is released, it is very possible that it will come in RU, as it will be a phenomenal Wish passer, and probably a staple in most stall teams.

 

[BLINGAS]

Most likely alomomola won't become a staple in any team because all it does is wish pass and thats all. just sits there.
PS, no mention of Rest Talk Fraxure yet?

 

[lars]

How long will it be until Tinted Lens is probably released? Lol, yea Alexwolf, I didn't say, but I was thinking Tinted Lens.

Although Magic Guard is obviously great for no SR damage, as you mentioned.

 

[PK Gaming]

Roost on Solar Power Charizard is pretty cool. I can see a set consisting of

-Sunny Day
-Fire Blast
-Solar Beam
-Roost

Doing fairly well in RU. I'm digging the new and improved Cofagrigous. Watch out RUorld haha.

 

[deluge]

Archeops seems more enticing now even with Defeatist. It got Roost to Recover damage and Heat Wave is a valid weapon to use against Physical Steels (instead of Focus Miss). There's also Stealth Rock. Since it's fast and nobody will think to taunt it could be an OK suicide rocker.

It also got Iron Defense which doubles Def in a turn. Defensive boosting is usually a poor strategy but on something this powerful, fast, and frail, with a terrible ability that punishes HP reduction by halving attack, the rules might be different. Increased Def could buffer against priority users (and weak attackers) that'll try to cut off Archeop's power source, if not KO. There are only five unscarfed RU Pokemon that are faster than this fossil.

Here are some gimmicks I'd try:

~Stone Edge/Acrobatics
~Earthquake
~Iron Defense
~Roost

(pushing it..lol)

~Acrobatics/Stone Edge
~Hone Claws
~Iron Defense
~Roost

But it's standard set will probably be:

~Acrobatics
~Stone Edge
~Earthquake
~Roost

 

[Mario With Lasers]

How long will it be until Tinted Lens is probably released? Lol, yea Alexwolf, I didn't say, but I was thinking Tinted Lens.

Although Magic Guard is obviously great for no SR damage, as you mentioned.

Apparently, Sigilyph has been found on Dream Radar already.

 

[lars]

This is probably a stretch, but Psychic stab is extremely good under tinted lens especially with air slash or hp [fighting] as back up. I'd expect that Specigilyph could be a staple wall breaker w/ trick and might rival Yanmega in terms of offensive prowess (mostly due to Trick utility).

 

[Double01]

Ever since BW2 came out I've been toying with a mono-dragon team and have had great success. (only losing to Texas on PS because of Hurricane Moltres hax >.>).
BW2 have been so nice to dragons giving them excellent moves allowing them to by pass steel types (mainly Steelix).
A few standout pokes I have found are...

- SR Druddigon has been prolly the best thing I could've asked for. You can either run a SpDef Tank Druddi with a moveset of SR / T-Wave / D-Tail/Roar / Outrage. This set is a very good team supporter para-shuffling the other team allowing other dragons such as, Zweilous and Fraxure, to have an easier sweep.
The other set that I use was a Sheer Force LO SR set which consists, of SR / Fire Punch / Outrage / Superpower. This set provides SR for your team while still letting you punch holes into the other team. I chose Superpower over d-tail was because the combo of Fire Punch+Superpower allows you to 2hko standard steelix, who is a big pain in the ass to dragons.

- Max SpDef SleepTalk Dragonair might be the MVP for my team. This thing can set up on SO many things it's rediculous. Especially once you are asleep and Marvel Scale is activated it is near impossible to be 2hkoed. I usually use this thing as my late game cleaner because it is basically useless with steel types around.

- The final poke that I think deserves a shout out is offensive DD Fraxure. With a move set consisting of DD / Outrage / Superpower / Aquatail. Once Fraxure gets a DD or 2 its basically gg. With its excellent coverage not even steel types can wall this thing. With eviolite it is bulky enough to shrug off weak priority attacks from hitmonchan and even Entei.

There are a few other pokes like specs Altaria, SleepTalk Shelgon, and CB Zweilous but i have to go and I might right about them later.

tl;dr
Dragons are a dominant force in the BW2 and even a mono dragon team can own this meta.

My mono-dragon team that I've been using

Hide

Druddigon @ Life Orb
Trait: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Outrage
- Fire Punch
- Sucker Punch

Dragonair @ Eviolite
Trait: Marvel Scale
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Def
Careful Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Altaria @ Choice Specs
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SAtk / 64 Spd / 192 HP
Modest Nature
- Fire Blast
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Pulse
- Rest

Fraxure @ Eviolite
Trait: Mold Breaker
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Spd / 252 Atk
Adamant Nature
- Aqua Tail
- Superpower
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage

Shelgon @ Eviolite
Trait: Rock Head
EVs: 248 HP / 232 Def / 30 Spd
Impish Nature
- Dragon Claw
- Dragon Dance
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Zweilous @ Choice Band
Trait: Hustle
EVs: 232 HP / 252 Atk / 20 Spd
- Outrage
- Superpower
- Aqua Tail
- Dragon Tail

 

[lars]

Oh, this hasn't been brought up yet and it might not actually be that influential on the RU metagame, but...

For those of you that get around TangKing with Bug moves? (Including myself)

Get ready for SlowGuss. Perfect Regenerator synergy.

No common weakness defensive core, both with reliable recovery, access to 100% accurate sleep move, built in immunity to Toxic and ability to remove T. Spikes.

I could see a huge rise in AfroBull usage for this alone.

This is one of the only things I can see that can reliably switch into one member of the core (Amoonguss can't do much and is safe to come in on) and 2HKO either one with LO Head Charge.

This obviously means that you will be taking huge recoil so it will probably only work twice at best. Throw Steelix in the mix and even Bouffalant can't break it. (Amoonguss will clear smog any SD attempts if it's smart, so you need a Sub too, but then you can't even touch Rotom... the plot thickens!

The only down fall I can see is the possible ability to smash through the core with strong Ground-type moves also because they are both neutral in this core.

Anyway, Amoonguss/Slowking/Steelix/Rotom core is pretty boss and together they resist everything with only 3 common weakness in Fire, Ghost, Dark.

Guess I found my new balance defensive core.

 

[alexwolf]

Also the nice thing with Amoonguus is that you can't just throw an unstabbed fire attack to it and expect it to die, like you did with Tangrowth.

But still Manectric, Magmortar, CB Entei, CB Aggron and SD Gallade can break the core quite easily!

 

[Hooker Punch]

The Amoonguss/Slowking core is really good. Only problem with it is that it seems OU has it's sights on making Amoonguss top-tier and he'll leave the tier soon.

Anyways, I decided to try LO+3 attacks+Roost Braviary. It isn't really working, anything it does, I keep finding Archeops would do better, especially because Archeops can go mixed to get around it's normal counters instead of having to rely on an anti-sweeping move to get around them.

 

[complete legitimacy]

Amoonguss will be cool for sure, but I would still never use it over Tangrowth. They both have different advantages, but Tangrowth's niche is still much wider than Amoonguss's. Amoonguss will only see use on full stall, since any other type of team would rather use Tangrowth since it provides more utility and has less counters. There's literally two Pokemon that can switch into every one of Tangrowth's moves, while there are infinitely more that can switch into Amoonguss. Amoonguss has better special bulk, and absorbs Toxic Spikes, but that's really it. One of the main reasons why Tangrowth is so good is that it can eliminate all of its would-be counters with sleep, and everything you switch in to be sleep fodder is destroyed by Leaf Storm or a coverage move. Amoonguss is so pathetically weak that half the tier can stay in on it and wait out the sleep turns. Amoonguss is setup fodder for most Spikers once Sleep Clause has been activated, while Tangrowth is not.

Of course, Amoonguss will be like Quagsire in that it's good, but doesn't have a wide enough niche to justify its use over Tangrowth or Poliwrath. It will probably be in RU range, but it'll move up to an even higher tier in three months. In other news, I'm really looking forward to trying out an improved Cofagrigus or Druddigon, and of course Fraxure will be interesting too. However, I'm happiest of all that the metagame actually won't change that much, but still has a few new things thrown into it. I'm assuming Eccentric Ditto will be legal? That thing is gonna be fun. I'm also hoping that we can get Escavalier this month in order to dampen Tangrowth's dominance. It's also best that we don't do a Durant retest anymore.

 

[alexwolf]

Amoonguss will be cool for sure, but I would still never use it over Tangrowth. They both have different advantages, but Tangrowth's niche is still much wider than Amoonguss's. Amoonguss will only see use on full stall, since any other type of team would rather use Tangrowth since it provides more utility and has less counters. There's literally two Pokemon that can switch into every one of Tangrowth's moves, while there are infinitely more that can switch into Amoonguss. Amoonguss has better special bulk, and absorbs Toxic Spikes, but that's really it. One of the main reasons why Tangrowth is so good is that it can eliminate all of its would-be counters with sleep, and everything you switch in to be sleep fodder is destroyed by Leaf Storm or a coverage move. Amoonguss is so pathetically weak that half the tier can stay in on it and wait out the sleep turns. Amoonguss is setup fodder for most Spikers once Sleep Clause has been activated, while Tangrowth is not.

Of course, Amoonguss will be like Quagsire in that it's good, but doesn't have a wide enough niche to justify its use over Tangrowth or Poliwrath. It will probably be in RU range, but it'll move up to an even higher tier in three months. In other news, I'm really looking forward to trying out an improved Cofagrigus or Druddigon, and of course Fraxure will be interesting too. However, I'm happiest of all that the metagame actually won't change that much, but still has a few new things thrown into it. I'm assuming Eccentric Ditto will be legal? That thing is gonna be fun. I'm also hoping that we can get Escavalier this month in order to dampen Tangrowth's dominance. It's also best that we don't do a Durant retest anymore.

This is true for offensive Tangrowth, which shouldn't be compared to Amoonguus anyway.

What you should compare is defensive Amoonguus with defensive Tangrowth. And in this comparison, Amoonguus seems to be the best of the two. Poison/Grass is a way better typing than mono Grass, as it gives the always useful Fighting resistance and removes the Bug and Poison weakness (poison is not a big deal but bug is), while removing your ground resistance and making you Psychic weak, and finally makes you immune to Toxic and enables you to absorb T-Spikes. Also the difference in special bulk is absolutely huge. Remember how Tangrowth wasn't a good switch-in to water types because of that horrendous SpD? Well Amoonguss doesn't give a shit about unstabbed Ice Beams, and it can survive even some stabbed ones. And a 100% accurate sleep move is always better than a 75% accurate one.

Note that i only mentioned the pros of the mushroom, and not the pros of Tangrowth, because i wanted to prove he is better in most cases. Of 'course Tangrowth's way better physical bulk, resistance to ground, neutrality to Psychic, and better offensive presence are reasons to pick him, if your team needs that traits, but i feel that overall Amoonguus will be the better defensive Grass type.

 

[lars]

This is true for offensive Tangrowth, which shouldn't be compared to Amoonguus anyway.

What you should compare is defensive Amoonguus with defensive Tangrowth. And in this comparison, Amoonguus seems to be the best of the two. Poison/Grass is a way better typing than mono Grass, as it gives the always useful Fighting resistance and removes the Bug and Poison weakness (poison is not a big deal but bug is), while removing your ground resistance and making you Psychic weak, and finally makes you immune to Toxic and enables you to absorb T-Spikes. Also the difference in special bulk is absolutely huge. Remember how Tangrowth wasn't a good switch-in to water types because of that horrendous SpD? Well Amoonguss doesn't give a shit about unstabbed Ice Beams, and it can survive even some stabbed ones. And a 100% accurate sleep move is always better than a 75% accurate one.

Note that i only mentioned the pros of the mushroom, and not the pros of Tangrowth, because i wanted to prove he is better in most cases. Of 'course Tangrowth's way better physical bulk, resistance to ground, neutrality to Psychic, and better offensive presence are reasons to pick him, if your team needs that traits, but i feel that overall Amoonguus will be the better defensive Grass type.

Alexwolf's comments are mostly what I was describing, obviously Amoonguss is a horrible replacement for Tangrowth on the offensive side, with Sludge Bomb as his strongest STAB and pretty bad coverage otherwise.

When running a 252/252+ Tangrowth vs a 252/252+ Amoonguus, Tangrowth has superior physical bulk, but garbage special bulk. Amoonguus is really arguably better than Tangrowth for the full defensive set purely because of immunities to Toxic, better special bulk and the better synergy with its regen. partner Slowking.

Normal Coverage for Tangrowth is Giga Drain and a HP anyway, both of which Amoonguss can use. (as well as preventing set ups with clear smog - always nice.)

I remember running a mixed defenses Amoonguus back in the Sableye meta that was my SS omastar check. It could tank 1 +2 Ice Beam and OHKO back with Giga Drain. Tangrowth doesn't have a chance.

I completely agree with Complete legitimacy that as a bulky offensive regenerator core, Slowking and Tangrowth are hands down better, but as for full defensive sets, Amoonguss takes that cake.

(and yes, Amoonguss holds these niches as well in OU, and will probably be snatched up. In fact, I could see it fairing even better in OU than RU/NU due to the abundance of fire/psychic/flying types in these lower tiers)

 

[DittoCrow]

Amoonguss is better at being a mixed or specially defensive wall than a physical wall.

+2 Jolly LO Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252/252+ Amoonguss: 81.25 - 95.6% (56.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)

+2 Adamant LO Feraligatr Return vs. 252/252+ Amoonguss: 56.94 - 67.12%

That's why I would rather use Amoonguss as a specially defensive wall to check stuff such as Lilligant and Omastar. I don't think that either Tangrowth or Amoonguss is better with Slowking, it really depends on what the team needs.

Also Roost Archeops is beast, just putting that out there ^_^

 

[complete legitimacy]

This is true for offensive Tangrowth, which shouldn't be compared to Amoonguus anyway.

What you should compare is defensive Amoonguus with defensive Tangrowth. And in this comparison, Amoonguus seems to be the best of the two. Poison/Grass is a way better typing than mono Grass, as it gives the always useful Fighting resistance and removes the Bug and Poison weakness (poison is not a big deal but bug is), while removing your ground resistance and making you Psychic weak, and finally makes you immune to Toxic and enables you to absorb T-Spikes. Also the difference in special bulk is absolutely huge. Remember how Tangrowth wasn't a good switch-in to water types because of that horrendous SpD? Well Amoonguss doesn't give a shit about unstabbed Ice Beams, and it can survive even some stabbed ones. And a 100% accurate sleep move is always better than a 75% accurate one.

Note that i only mentioned the pros of the mushroom, and not the pros of Tangrowth, because i wanted to prove he is better in most cases. Of 'course Tangrowth's way better physical bulk, resistance to ground, neutrality to Psychic, and better offensive presence are reasons to pick him, if your team needs that traits, but i feel that overall Amoonguus will be the better defensive Grass type.

Tangrowth has about 10 different moves that it can viably run on its defensive set. One major reason why even defensive Tangrowth is better than Amoonguss is because it can run a coverage move. Two things that can beat Amoonguss + Slowking but can't beat TanKing are Bouffalant and Drapion, since Tangrowth can hit them with Focus Blast or Earthquake, respectively. Also, the very fact that you see Tangrowth in team preview leaves you immediately questioning whether it's an offensive or a defensive set, whereas Amoonguss is a one-trick pony that is very predictable. Also, Tangrowth's extra physical bulk goes a long way since some powerful physical attackers can break through it. Amoonguss really misses that immunity to Ground, too.

+2 Adamant Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252/252+ Tangrowth 65.59%-76.98% Guaranteed 2HKO
+2 Adamant Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252/252+ Amoonguss 89.38%-105.09% Guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Adamant Choice Band Druddigon Outrage vs. 252/252+ Tangrowth 46.78%-55.19% 93.75% Chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Adamant Choice Band Druddigon Outrage vs. 252/252+ Amoonguss 63.88%-75.23% Guaranteed 2HKO

In any case, they're both good, it's just that Amoonguss is largely invading Tangrowth's territory, where Regenerator of its own isn't enough to justify using it over Tangrowth.

 

[Double01]

Two things that can beat Amoonguss + Slowking but can't beat TanKing

But there are also things that can beat Tanking but cant beat Amoonguss+Slowking. For example Lum Berry Lilligant or even Life Orb lilligant.

+2 Lum Berry Lilligants HP Rock vs 252/0 Tangrowth 235-277 (58.16 - 68.56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 Lum Berry Lilligant HP Rock vs 252/0 Amoonguss 164-193 (37.96 - 44.67%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Not only can Amoonguss survive a 2hko from +2 Lum Lilligant but it can also clear smog to get rid of lilligants boosts.

Another example is Rotom-C after it has tricked its scarf/specs away.

Rotom-C HP Fire vs 252/0 Tangrowth 228-270 (56.43 - 66.83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Rotom-C HP Fire vs 252/0 Amoonguss 158-188 (36.57 - 43.51%) -- 99.15% chance to 3HKO

As you can see Amoonguss is much better at dealing with special grass type attackers (and special attackers in general) while tangrowth is much better dealing with Physical Attackers but lacks the mix wall capabilities of amoonguss.

Edit: Also who cares if amoonguss is a "one-trick pony" when it can do it's defensive job better than any other mon, including tangrowth. Cofagrigus is pratically a one trick pony and yet it is one of the deadliest sweepers in the tier.

 

[blunder]

Archeops with Roost has been pretty phenomenal. Roosting of Damage is really nice with such a frail pokemon. I run Lum berry because LO wears it down to quickly and Taking random Sleeps or T-Waves is also cool