BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

[Ricky Horror]

but what monoattacking latias would ever run psyshock? o_O i could see it happening in something like cm/recover/dpulse/psyshock, but if running refresh or sub, there's no room to run a stab to which mons are immune. the whole point of mono-attacking dragons, and the reason they work, is that you hit so many things neutrally that you can get away with having no coverage moves whatsoever. running psychic as your only attack type extends the list of counters dramatically. if a dark type comes in and your only attack is psyshock, out you go. that's not a problem with dragon pulse

This is why you have 5 other Pokemon to handle said Dark types. As is there's only One Dark Prominent type in OU. Tyranitar. Yes this set has been on successful teams so there's no questioning it's efficient ness. Also this set would be.

Latias@leftovers
Ability:Levitate
Nature:Timid
4 Sp. Def/ 252 Hp/ 252 Spe
-Psyshock
-Recover
-Calm Mind
-Refresh.

 

[Kiyo]

This is why you have 5 other Pokemon to handle said Dark types. As is there's only One Dark Prominent type in OU. Tyranitar. Also the set would be. Yes this set has been on successful teams so there's no questioning it's efficient ness.
Latias@leftovers
Ability:Levitate
Nature:Timid
4 Sp. Def/ 252 Hp/ 252 Spe
-Psyshock
-Recover
-Calm Mind
-Refresh.

Have fun being pursuit trapped

 

[2sly4u]

This is why you have 5 other Pokemon to handle said Dark types. As is there's only One Dark Prominent type in OU. Tyranitar. Yes this set has been on successful teams so there's no questioning it's efficient ness. Also this set would be.

Latias@leftovers
Ability:Levitate
Nature:Timid
4 Sp. Def/ 252 Hp/ 252 Spe
-Psyshock
-Recover
-Calm Mind
-Refresh.

This set is so bad words can't even begin to describe. There's literally no good reason at all to run Psyshock over Dragon Pulse. Psychic is a horrible attacking type for a mono-attacker, since there's a type that's COMPLETELY IMMUNE TO IT. That doesn't even get into how the extremely common SpD Jirachi laughs at this set. It doesn't matter that T-Tar is the only common Dark-type in OU, because he's still pretty popular. You'll be forced out no matter how many boosts you have.

Dragon Pulse is stronger and more reliable, hitting everything except Steels for neutral damage. It's that awesome neutral coverage that makes mono-attacking Dragons successful. Psyshock may help you win CM wars and Blissey, but neither are that common. The pros don't come anywhere close to outweighing the cons.

 

[Ricky Horror]

Have fun being pursuit trapped

Lol If you run this set you will clearly clean the field of Scizor and Tyranitar; which I just stated. Your just being a moron now...

 

[Kiyo]

This is why you have 5 other Pokemon to handle said Dark types. As is there's only One Dark Prominent type in OU. Tyranitar. Yes this set has been on successful teams so there's no questioning it's efficient ness. Also this set would be.

Latias@leftovers
Ability:Levitate
Nature:Timid
4 Sp. Def/ 252 Hp/ 252 Spe
-Psyshock
-Recover
-Calm Mind
-Refresh.

Lol If you run this set you will clearly clean the field of Scizor and Tyranitar; which I just stated. Your just being a moron now...

You definitely didn't state that you would already have rid the field of dark scizor and tyranitar. you said that you have 5 other pokes to deal with the dark types which in no way implies they'll be off the field before latias comes in. either way the point is that mono attacking latias with psyshock is a horrible set. and the fact that you're going to call me a moron for pointing out an obvious flaw your set has is just childish.

 

[Matthew]

Play nice kids.

Regardless I wouldn't want to run a Psychic-type move on any kind of mono-attacking latias. It handles itself much better with Dragon Pulse than with Psyshock. Handling Scizor is a lot easier than handling Tyranitar (considering Scizor can be Steel Trapped by Magnezone and Tyranitar can always switch out).

 

[Ricky Horror]

You definitely didn't state that you would already have rid the field of dark scizor and tyranitar. you said that you have 5 other pokes to deal with the dark types which in no way implies they'll be off the field before latias comes in. either way the point is that mono attacking latias with psyshock is a horrible set. and the fact that you're going to call me a moron for pointing out an obvious flaw your set has is just childish.

It was in above comments. It's common sense that you have to rid of them regardless of set, exception Hp Fire to hit Scizor. Many greater players have used this set ;) Done arguing with you this is just an option. Your not being forced to use something you don't like. right right.

 

[NoUserName]

Dugtrio and even Wobbuffet can trap Tyranitar too, but less safely than the magnets with Scizor.

 

[Kiyo]

It was in above comments. It's common sense that you have to rid of them regardless of set, exception Hp Fire to hit Scizor. Many greater players have used this set ;) Done arguing with you this is just an option. Your not being forced to use something you don't like. right right.

um, okay? last thing is that this set is easily walled even without being pursuit trapped or being 1 v 1 with a dark type. Any defensive wall can stop this thing in its tracks. the biggest of which is skarmory. even if latios gets some boosts up skarm can just whirlwind it out. You'll get your wish, I'm done arguing about an inferior set.

 

[FrostFire]

Ummm, I'm not sure why you'd want to run Psyshock> Dragon Pulse. The only thing that resists Dragon is Steel, and coincidentally, Steel resists Psychic as well. There's no gain, bar helping to beat Blissey/Chansey - but even that is no reason to use Psyshock. You're better off simply running Dragon Pulse/ Calm Mind/ Recover/ Refresh to beat the pink blobs.

Side Note on above conversation: Substitute variants rarely ever beat Blissey/Chansey. This is because they need to sub to avoid Toxic BUT the blobs can break the sub straight away with S Toss. Eventually you'll need to Recover - cause you can't spam sub for forever - and you'll get hit by toxic. Now, it's true that the Latias trainer can try and predict when the toxic is coming but the point is that Latias only needs to mispredict one time, and it'll get toxic'ed and lose. On the other hand, if the blobs mispredict one time and toxic a sub, it hardly matters, as even at +6, a D-pulse only does about 50% with 252HP/4SA/252 Spe Timid. Thus, Blissey/Chansey has a far greater margin for error.

But anyway.

Back to the Psyshock - Dragon Pulse thing.
Dragon Pulse is resisted by Steel only
Psyshock is resisted by Steel and Psychic, Dark is immune.

See how one is clearly inferior? Please, people; you should never run Mono-psychic. Ever. Seriously, it's bad.

One last thing. Seeing as this is the general metagame discussion thread, I'd just like to say how freaking awesome Tornadus-T is. I know, I know - I sound like a bit of a broken record, but it really is superb. ATM, I've been running a pretty standard 252/252 timid Life Orb set with Hurricane/ FB/ Rain Dance and U-Turn. One of the things I found while using it has been that, sans rain support, Tornadus-T becomes much less potent. Of course, I always run this alongside DrizzleToed, but Rain Dance is nice insurance, and I've found it's not a bad option for weather wars.

Another last thing (lol) is Thundurus-T, which seems pretty beastly as well. Maybe not as good as the Orginal Recipe, but it sure can be terrifying, esp. the Nasty Plot variants. I find Scarf is a bit easier to deal with, though this could be because I run rain stall/ balance as opposed to more offensive teams.

ahhhh... Yeah. I think that's it. ;)

 

[2sly4u]

It was in above comments. It's common sense that you have to rid of them regardless of set, exception Hp Fire to hit Scizor. Many greater players have used this set ;) Done arguing with you this is just an option. Your not being forced to use something you don't like. right right.

No good players would use that set in today's metagame, for the reasons about five people have already mentioned. It's completely outclassed by Dragon Pulse and walled completely by the most common Steel in the tier. There's no reason to take the extra trouble of clearing out Dark Types when you can just run Dragon Pulse and be done with it. There's nothing Dragon Pulse doesn't beat that Psyshock will. Latias can easily get to +6 against the blobs, so don't bring them up. D.P. requires way less team support and does more damage. I don't get what you aren't seeing here.

 

[alkinesthetase]

there may only be one viable dark type in OU (okay so there's hydreigon too, it's also very viable), but there only needs to be one viable dark type for mono psychic to suck. dragon is mathematically a superior stab to psychic on mono attacking sets; it hits more mons neutrally. the only advantage you get is slightly easier time beating blissey and a slight edge in cm wars, and that's hardly significant when your unboosted 0satk psyshock deals max 28% to 252/252+ blissey. there is NO cmer in OU who runs mono psychic as a standard set, and that's for good reason. any set can be questioned, and in this case, the reason we're questioning it is because mono psychic sucks.

 

[Electrolyte]

Seeing as I kind of started that whole above conversation, I'll clear things up a bit.
1. I meant that Blissey/Chansey can't really do anything besides Seismic Toss or Toxic, one which isn't used very often and the other blocked by Substitute. Also, Latias can just switch out into a Guts user, and then go from there. Still, Blissey and Chansey are very hard counters, and if Latias doesn't have Psyshock then it will be walled. I'm just not listing them there as counters because reflect type doesn't help Latias handle them at all, where as Ttar and Scizor are no longer threats if Latias has Reflect Type.
2. Dragon Pulse>Psyshock>Psychic. End of discussion.
3. Feigning HP fire is not a good strategy on Latias. Many people still throw in Scizor when they see Latias. In fact, everyone plays Scizor and Tyranitar so offensively these days- many people don't even think twice before sending in Scizor to Pursuit but ending up getting OHKO'd by HP fire. If you don't have it, then Scizor will give you trouble. Period.

As for Tornauds-T being a huge powerhouse, that's very true- I was hell bent trying to find a Tornadus-T counter for my Stall team and I had to settle for Tyranitar with Chople Berry. Of course then in my first match Stone Edge misses and I was swept clean. Not even Blissey can stop it because it always has Superpower. I tried a BU+Acrogem set with Heat Wave in the sun, and it is totally unwallable. Mild with 4 EV Heat Wave in the sun does 47-55% to SpD Jirachi, which is a guaranteed 2HKO after rocks, while Acrobatics just wrecks everything else. Superpower OHKO's Heatran at +1.

 

[doughboy]

Seeing as I kind of started that whole above conversation, I'll clear things up a bit.
1. I meant that Blissey/Chansey can't really do anything besides Seismic Toss or Toxic, one which isn't used very often and the other blocked by Substitute. Also, Latias can just switch out into a Guts user, and then go from there. Still, Blissey and Chansey are very hard counters, and if Latias doesn't have Psyshock then it will be walled. I'm just not listing them there as counters because reflect type doesn't help Latias handle them at all, where as Ttar and Scizor are no longer threats if Latias has Reflect Type.

Lol that's bullshit. Having Seismic Toss and Toxic is the standard set. If we play this game of "Latias can just switch out into a Guts user" then I can just switch out into my Fighting-type counter (which are actually paired with Blissey very common). From experience, Refresh Latias is better for 1 vs 1 situations than Psyshock. Unless you were already boosted to the point where it is a 2HKO (+3 vs Bold Blissey), then you will find youself heavily crippled by Toxic

Unfortunately for Reflect Type it still can hit by ScarfTar and Scizor's Bullet Punch. Or they the prediction game with Superpower. They are still threats, just not one where you can get checkmated by with Putsuit.

2. Dragon Pulse>Psyshock>Psychic. End of discussion.

Not even over slashes needed. Psychic type attacks should only supplement Draon Pulse and never replace it. why can you end discussions :(

3. Feigning HP fire is not a good strategy on Latias. Many people still throw in Scizor when they see Latias. In fact, everyone plays Scizor and Tyranitar so offensively these days- many people don't even think twice before sending in Scizor to Pursuit but ending up getting OHKO'd by HP fire. If you don't have it, then Scizor will give you trouble. Period.

That is a very broad claim to make. Towards the top of ladder I don't think that would happen. Scouting is a pretty common tactic to prevent that from happening.

 

[canno]

This is why you have 5 other Pokemon to handle said Dark types

You could argue you have 5 other pokemon to deal with Blissey. I fail to see how this is a good argument towards Psyshock, considering Dragon Pulse requires less team support than Psyshock.

 

[alphatron]

With the resurgence of offensive rain, trick room reuniclus and trick room teams in general are looking very appealing. Has anyone been messing around with trick room reuniclus at least?

 

[Electrolyte]

@ThePillsburyDoughboy: I know Blissey and Chansey are counters. Lol, I've been down that road. However, since they only Toxic and Seismic Toss, then Reflect type won't help, so I didn't want to mention them. And I forgot about Superpower on Ttar. Still, Reflect type helps against Scizor.
I can end discussions because I'm boss, bro. :D
You're right, experienced players scout first but Latias is more of a late game sweeper, so hopefully you can keep your movepool a mystery. Either way, if you don't have HP fire / Reflect type, you're fucked.

@Alphatron: Trick Room+HAS is a pretty effective strategy. So much of the tier is based on speed now that Trick room would give many Tanks a better shot. I've tried trick room, but not with reuniclus. It's really easy to use against rain, but Sandstorm is a bit harder.

 

[Masttershake]

I have not seen a single one since BW2. Nearly every steel is in jeopardy. They're all either easily outsped, bad typing, or demolished by Fighting types. Especially with Brelooms new reign of Terror. Even Heatran and Ferrothorn are seeing a drop. Lucario is still good imo having access to Priority in three different coverages.

What? I see Ferro all the time(seriously he loves rain), and Lucario OHKO's Loom at +2 with Extreme speed so i doubt it hurts Lukes use to much.

 

[Masttershake]

i tend to lean towards cm+reflect/roar when i run latias. you don't have substitute for setting up but you can still do so, and until then cm is just for abusing free turns unless you plan on going for the sweep. in addition if you get enough cms from free turns you can become a real challenge to take down. reflect/roar on the other hand have plenty of utility in the early and mid game compared to substitute, which i don't really like using if i expect to be forced out soon (i know it has plenty of utility even in those situations, i just don't really like it). then i run enough speed to outrun jolly terrakion (i don't see much benefit in running max speed; the only thing you outrun is HP fire lati@s in that case. i can beat espeon just by spamming attacks or cming up, and statistically i'll lose to gengar whose shadow ball 2hkos me slightly more often more than my dragon pulse 2hkos it; those are the only other 110s that matter. granted, you need a whopping 240 speed to outrun terrakion, so it's not like the extra 16 EVs are gonna make much difference anywhere else). right now i prefer reflect because of all the uturns flying around; even thundy-t's uturn hits latias for around 30% which admittedly does sting. moreover reflect can support your teammates if you're against something latias can't wall (ie if you're expecting a switch to a physical attacker who outspeeds you, the obvious move is to reflect on the switch and exit to a bulkier mon next turn). if you're going full stall roar is usually a worthy alternative, but i don't tend to go all the way into full stall

if you try to run stuff like specs latias or recover+3 attacks, you're straight up outclassed by latios who has plenty more power than you and the same speed tier. even cm+recover+2 attacks is done better by latios imo. it's for that reason that i don't waste my time on pure offensive sets; latias sucks at all of them compared to latios who has more immediate power and has an easier time forcing things out by virtue of offensive power. moreover those sets tend to ignore the real appeal of latias, which is its fabulous special defense. i personally see 4 viable moves for latias, besides dragon pulse and recover which you should basically always be running: substitute (which tends to be run alongside cm for obvious reasons), calm mind, roar and reflect. there are a few others but those tend to be the most useful options, unless you're aiming for something a bit more niche like dual screens. wish exists but i'm not into it on latias because its base HP has never really impressed me for the job; gimme blissey or vap any day. i find that it's generally a mistake to run two attacks on latias because the third support move is so useful, with the exception of psyshock which lets you win calm mind wars, notably against keldeo. if you start running stuff like hp fire + cm then suddenly latios starts outclassing you again because its power is higher and it has an easier time threatening stuff out.

Was going to call bullshit till I read that part as I use psyshock on my Latias with just enough special attack to OHKO Keldeo after just a bit of prior damage(1 life orb recoil and SR).

 

[bubbly]

With the resurgence of offensive rain, trick room reuniclus and trick room teams in general are looking very appealing. Has anyone been messing around with trick room reuniclus at least?

I used TR Reuniclus a fair bit on a Hail team, it worked decently but not as well as I expected actually. One reason I guess is that, with Tornadus and Keldeo everywhere, the usual suspects like Jirachi and Latias are also on every team.

 

[Ames]

I love TR in general and run it quite often - obviously Reuniclus is excellent at setting it up and going to town with it. While TR is an amazing counter to offensive teams, I am usually crushed by stall and other bulky threats.

The biggest problem with TR is that it is hard to find a spot for a regular set up sweeper/wallbreaker inbetween trying to keep TR up and so things like latias and especially Jirachi and Gliscor often end you. This is made worse by the fact that mons which set up TR often don't have time to use a boosting move and by the time you switch in something that can, a good player can stall you out if their team is not too frail.

Not going to stop me from trying though haha.

 

[alkinesthetase]

@masttershake: yeah, from what i see, psyshock's real appeal on latias right now is being able to beat pretty much any keldeo, since psyshock isn't slowed down by cm. ofc it's always been there as an option for winning cm wars, but keldeo seems to be the poster boy for that job right now. it's not like psychic has ever been a good coverage type so that's pretty much what it's limited to. like i said, i consider hp fire a waste of space on latias; if i'm gonna be attacking a lot why wasn't i running latios lol (i mean okay you could make the bulk vs power argument, but i'm of the opinion that you might as well go all the way. if you're gonna get aggressive, pick the mon whose stats suit the job)

oh and as for that refresh/substitute thing we were talking about a few posts ago, i don't personally run either, but refresh is nice for taking down other stall mons i guess, and it does that job better than substitute does. the problem is that it has even less early/midgame usefulness than substitute, since at the very least, sub lets you scout out your opponent's moves when you force a switch, and it lets you get away from any dangerous pursuits with a bit more insurance. refresh doesn't do anything unless you plan on sticking around for a while and you're afraid of getting statused along the way. i don't find latias gets all that many opportunities to "stick around for a while" until it's sweeping time. ofc this is my preference though; i run neither sub nor refresh cause i don't really like the way they affect my play of latias. those two moves just do different jobs from what i usually run, which atm is reflect.

i am reminded of shrang's recent uber warstory (okay, semi-recent) where it looked like his entire team was getting screwed over by full stall with tspikes down. he was getting phazed all over the place and basically all his mons were dying. surprise surprise, his last mon was refreshCM mono-attacking arceus-water (sorry if i spoiled it for you =P it was a pretty good warstory). that's a set that obviously is at its best when taking down full stall teams. once it was his last mon, he refreshed away the tspikes and went from like 1-4 to solidly cemented victory. it's on mons like arceus water where i see the advantage of refresh over substitute, and it also has a lot to do with the way the mon is played. shrang didn't bring the arceus out until literally no other mons on his team were left. he didn't even use it once. i suppose that was a wise decision since, against full stall, it was his best bet to win, and it would only be able to avoid phazing if it was his last mon. if he revealed the set his opponent would have realized how high priority of a threat it was and would have put much more effort into destroying it, rather than letting shrang sack his way into a phaze-proof cmer. in addition arceus doesn't have the issues with pursuits and uturns that latias does, so some of the key prediction utility of sub is less useful there than it is on latias. moreover, tspikes are a problem for arceus and they are not for latias (i'm not familiar with the ubers metagame, but i'd also imagine that tspikes in general are more viable there, because there are fewer good poison types to absorb the tspikes than there are in OU). i don't really wanna be saving my latias for the end though; i have other jobs it has to do on my team, so neither refresh nor sub are a fit for me.



as for trick room: i've never actually run a TR team, so forgive my ignorance =P but has anyone tried using tr the way tailwind used to be used on tornadus-I? rather than planning a team around using TR to sweep, use it by surprise to turn around the speed balance right when your opponent thinks they have it made, and potentially countersweep? i feel like TR, as a strategy to build a team around, has never quite been enough for OU, seeing as it only lasts 5 turns and you burn one of them on setting it up in the first place. but as a one-off disruptive tool to throw off the balance of offensive teams, i feel like there's some cool stuff you can do with it. i guess my comparison would work a little better if there was a viable prankster trickroomer lol. i haven't checked if there is such a mon.
EDIT: good catch stallion, i forgot about trick room's negative priority

 

[FaceFaceFace]

I love TR in general and run it quite often - obviously Reuniclus is excellent at setting it up and going to town with it. While TR is an amazing counter to offensive teams, I am usually crushed by stall and other bulky threats.

The biggest problem with TR is that it is hard to find a spot for a regular set up sweeper/wallbreaker inbetween trying to keep TR up and so things like latias and especially Jirachi and Gliscor often end you. This is made worse by the fact that mons which set up TR often don't have time to use a boosting move and by the time you switch in something that can, a good player can stall you out if their team is not too frail.

Not going to stop me from trying though haha.

I hear you.
Being an avid TR Reuniclus lover myself, I have been spending the last few weeks trying to put together a Reuniclus based sand team.

I've come up with this concept recently which is working rather well - put together Hippowdon/Tyranitar to lead, as a Rocker, and a team of 3 'floaters' (levitate/flying) - of which 2 will have a Volt Turn combo; add a spiker, and Reuniclus.

The idea is that your spiker and Rocker aside, the whole team is immune to spikes, negating the need for a spinner. The tricky bit is setting up your hazards - once you do, it's pretty much game over.

Currently, I'm experimenting with a Volt+Turn+Baton Pass 'floater' core consisting of:

Rotom+ Landorus force a shit tonne of switches - so the opponent can choose -1. switch out and take massive hazard damage on the switch in, 2. get KOed by a super effective move, OR 3. switch out, take massive hazard damage, eat a volt/turn, and start guessing again.
Gliscor can toxic stall/ragequit opponent, or pass a sub to whoever that needs it.
I also tried running a bulky

instead of Gliscor as a pseudo spinblocker - switch in on the spinner, sub up, DD or 2 away, and sweep.
Rotom taking neutral and Gyara taking lots from SR hurts a bit, but the tradeoff is well worth it -when the opportunity strikes, get Reuniclus in and start your TR sweep.

The beauty with this concept is that you can afford to trade spikes with a stall based team and beat them at their game - and for an offense based team, TR Reuniclus becomes a massive threat.
It's a team that no doubt needs work, but I find it to be a pretty good concept to base a TR Reuniclus around, because once that thing starts going, it's pretty damn hard to stop it. Especially if you've got all your hazards down.

 

[Stallion]

@masttershake: yeah, from what i see, psyshock's real appeal on latias right now is being able to beat pretty much any keldeo, since psyshock isn't slowed down by cm. ofc it's always been there as an option for winning cm wars, but keldeo seems to be the poster boy for that job right now. it's not like psychic has ever been a good coverage type so that's pretty much what it's limited to. like i said, i consider hp fire a waste of space on latias; if i'm gonna be attacking a lot why wasn't i running latios lol (i mean okay you could make the bulk vs power argument, but i'm of the opinion that you might as well go all the way. if you're gonna get aggressive, pick the mon whose stats suit the job)

oh and as for that refresh/substitute thing we were talking about a few posts ago, i don't personally run either, but refresh is nice for taking down other stall mons i guess, and it does that job better than substitute does. the problem is that it has even less early/midgame usefulness than substitute, since at the very least, sub lets you scout out your opponent's moves when you force a switch, and it lets you get away from any dangerous pursuits with a bit more insurance. refresh doesn't do anything unless you plan on sticking around for a while and you're afraid of getting statused along the way. i don't find latias gets all that many opportunities to "stick around for a while" until it's sweeping time. ofc this is my preference though; i run neither sub nor refresh cause i don't really like the way they affect my play of latias. those two moves just do different jobs from what i usually run, which atm is reflect.

i am reminded of shrang's recent uber warstory (okay, semi-recent) where it looked like his entire team was getting screwed over by full stall with tspikes down. he was getting phazed all over the place and basically all his mons were dying. surprise surprise, his last mon was refreshCM mono-attacking arceus-water (sorry if i spoiled it for you =P it was a pretty good warstory). that's a set that obviously is at its best when taking down full stall teams. once it was his last mon, he refreshed away the tspikes and went from like 1-4 to solidly cemented victory. it's on mons like arceus water where i see the advantage of refresh over substitute, and it also has a lot to do with the way the mon is played. shrang didn't bring the arceus out until literally no other mons on his team were left. he didn't even use it once. i suppose that was a wise decision since, against full stall, it was his best bet to win, and it would only be able to avoid phazing if it was his last mon. if he revealed the set his opponent would have realized how high priority of a threat it was and would have put much more effort into destroying it, rather than letting shrang sack his way into a phaze-proof cmer. in addition arceus doesn't have the issues with pursuits and uturns that latias does, so some of the key prediction utility of sub is less useful there than it is on latias. moreover, tspikes are a problem for arceus and they are not for latias (i'm not familiar with the ubers metagame, but i'd also imagine that tspikes in general are more viable there, because there are fewer good poison types to absorb the tspikes than there are in OU). i don't really wanna be saving my latias for the end though; i have other jobs it has to do on my team, so neither refresh nor sub are a fit for me.



as for trick room: i've never actually run a TR team, so forgive my ignorance =P but has anyone tried using tr the way tailwind used to be used on tornadus-I? rather than planning a team around using TR to sweep, use it by surprise to turn around the speed balance right when your opponent thinks they have it made, and potentially countersweep? i feel like TR, as a strategy to build a team around, has never quite been enough for OU, seeing as it only lasts 5 turns and you burn one of them on setting it up in the first place. but as a one-off disruptive tool to throw off the balance of offensive teams, i feel like there's some cool stuff you can do with it. i guess my comparison would work a little better if there was a viable prankster trickroomer lol. i haven't checked if there is such a mon.

Prankster only ups priority by + 1 and seeing as Trick Room is like -6 or something really low, it won't make a difference. Having said that, I know what you mean by using Trick Room as a "save my ass" measure. I played McMeghan for fun in a BO3 adv/dpp/bw series and he won DPP with a Trick Room Bronzong, despite the fact that nothing else on his team really benefited from it. I think it's a cool move to save you from being crushed by fast set up sweepers as opposed to a move to build a team around. Tailwind is better of course but Trick Room on a bulky/balanced team could be pretty awesome.

 

[Buttobi]

I've been testing a hail team lately and it works really well. My team consists of: Abomasnow, Kyurem, Starmie, Mamoswine, Magnezone and salamence. I'm ofcourse not gonna explain the specific movesets but this team can crush any weather team. And actually I have 2 hail inducers in this team. I also gave Starmie the move hail so I have more weather control. About Mamoswine, he doesn't rely on the hail since I'm running an endeavor set on him. Magnezone counters those stupid steel types like ferrothorn and jirachi. Scizor can just U-turn away so I added Salamence to my team. His fire blast can OHKO most scizor. And if the rain is up, you can just use Starmie or Abomasnow to change it to hail. So with some good prediction you can easily take out thos pesky scizor.