Non-weather is hard to build, and when you build it, consider threats from four (if hail is counted) weathers. There is keldeo in rain, the probability of garchomp and thunderus coming back from ubers (this is quite unlikely, considering that scarfchomp might be needed to deal with the new kyurem formes) and the therain forms everywhere. Perhaps an FWG core consisting of amoongus, heatran and slowbro might be able to weather through the battle.
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So many weather teams... Is non-weather viable?
- Thread starter Eleon
- Start date
What kind of pot are you smoking? Non-weather teams aren't that hard to build. For fucks sake, it even has ways that it's arguably easier to build a team that isn't clutch on the weather conditions. You still have a lot of flexible options - you just need a good strategy to handle the team in certain weather conditions. You don't have to constantly swap your weather inducer in and keep it alive like weather reliant teams do. You dont know how many times I had situations that I would love to sack my weather inducer instead of one of my other Pokemon only to find out I can't because the opponent has a different weather condition than mine.
We'll deal with Garchomp and Thundurus-I when the time comes, but there is no need to consider them right now.
And, weather really isn't very hard to counter, as long as you have the right strategies and pokemon. You're right- Amoongbro+ Heatran handle weather very well. Ferrocent+ Mamoswine are also great weather counters.
I agree with Scarfywynaut; not having weather is basically like a whole nother pokemon if you can handle it. Though, Ttar does work pretty well for Stall, since it eliminates Espeon quite well, who is a downright bitch to handle if you don't have Ttar or some other physical attackers.
I don't know if it counts as weather, but I've been using Trick Room as a back up strategy for my Stall team, and boy has it saved my ass- bringing me from a 6-3 in my opponent's favor to a 2-0 in mine. Trick Room is certainly a field effect many nonweather teams should be ready to face; especially because there's no stopping it once it's up.
EDIT: @ColonelM: Back when I used a full choice item'ed Rain team, I frequently sacked Politoed as death fodder because unlike Ttar it's relatively useless besides setting up rain. I also found that weather teams are also constantly at war with other weathers- many rain sweepers can't do shit in sun, while things like Venasaur or Sawsbuck just fail in Rain. They are so reliant on their weather, and that's what makes them easier to take down than most people think.
Also, am I the only person to slap in Hail on one of my pokemon just to screw with other weather teams? I don't use it anymore but boy is it fun seeing other people rage
Its something I toil over endlessly, and I will say not running your own weather tends to end up in some unwinnable situations to say the least. Its always heartbreaking to go up against a hydration vaporeon in the rain and realising your one hard counter got taking out by some surprise hidden power or unexpected attack. :/
Or that if you lose a certain defensive pivot the opposing chlorophyll user outspeeds your goddamn 100+ scarfers and IN ADDITION wont be koed by your priority user, and proceeds to inflict catastrophic damage to the team .
The lax attitude towards this infuriating meta is genuinely... stoopid.
Or that if you lose a certain defensive pivot the opposing chlorophyll user outspeeds your goddamn 100+ scarfers and IN ADDITION wont be koed by your priority user, and proceeds to inflict catastrophic damage to the team .
The lax attitude towards this infuriating meta is genuinely... stoopid.
I think that Specs Kingdra and Xatu is the bane of any rain team out there. The only bad thing about Kingdra against rain teams, is that Ferrothorn, one of the best mons in rain, could set-up hazards on Kingdra, which made your life much harder. But with Xatu you have this covered. You don't even need to trap-kill him with Zone, you can just abuse him to no end, and make rain teams your bitch for ever!
Another set i like using in my weatherless teams, to combat Sun, is Choice Specs Modest Heatran with Sleep Talk. This way you make Venusaur your eternal bitch, and you obliterate everything with Sun boosted Fire Blast's (except from Balloon Heatran, so throw out a few Dragon Pulses early game). Btw Specs Heatran in Sun easily 2hkoes both blobs after SR, and ohkoes any Dragon in OU after SR, exept from Lati@s (4 HP Latios loses 73.5 - 86.75% and does shit in return, while Latias simply gets 2hkoed).
And if you use Specs Kingdra + Specs Heatran you don't really have to worry about one of them being useless in the opposite weather (especially Heatran in Rain) as each of them is completely capable of breaking through Sun/Rain teams alone. So it doesn't matter that you play 5-6 against a rain team when you have Heatran, because Kingdra more than makes up for it....
Another set i like using in my weatherless teams, to combat Sun, is Choice Specs Modest Heatran with Sleep Talk. This way you make Venusaur your eternal bitch, and you obliterate everything with Sun boosted Fire Blast's (except from Balloon Heatran, so throw out a few Dragon Pulses early game). Btw Specs Heatran in Sun easily 2hkoes both blobs after SR, and ohkoes any Dragon in OU after SR, exept from Lati@s (4 HP Latios loses 73.5 - 86.75% and does shit in return, while Latias simply gets 2hkoed).
And if you use Specs Kingdra + Specs Heatran you don't really have to worry about one of them being useless in the opposite weather (especially Heatran in Rain) as each of them is completely capable of breaking through Sun/Rain teams alone. So it doesn't matter that you play 5-6 against a rain team when you have Heatran, because Kingdra more than makes up for it....
Some of the best BW1 teams were weatherless; BW2 did little to change what made them good imo. In fact I think anti-weather has it even easier now since they can run a pocket Kingdra to wreck their shit.
I disagree, Politoed is solid after rain goes up (either as a scarfer, specs user or in a supporting role.) Moreover, I think it's actually on par with Ttar in the current metagame (maybe a little less useful)
I find defensive politoed to be extremely useful. It can tank hits pretty well, can spread status with Scald and Toxic, and phaze with Perish Song. Add protect into the mix and you have a serious pest on your hands.
Sacking Politoed is a horrible idea. Like others have pointed out - Politoed actually is a good Pokemon. Yes, it is a mediocre Pokemon that was blessed with one of the more game changing abilities, but it has a shitload of uses. First, it's awesome offensively thanks to the rain boost. Specs Politoed might not hit as hard as Specs Rotom-W and the like, though Specs Politoed can actually bypass Ferrothorn without constantly using Hydro Pumps repeatedly - it can go for the Focus Blast and score from there. Of course Rotom-W can Volt Switch, but Volt Switch also requires a switch-in to not be immune to the attack (which is why I find it a little more underwhelming than U-turn, but this is partially an opinion). Scarf is still pretty damn solid - it can still outspeed Tornadus-T and Weavile while being a good revenge killer. Since it changes the weather, it makes it an effective way to revenge kill Pokemon such as Sawsbuck and Venusuar and even the likes of Sandslash and Stoutland.
Finally, it's support options and its bulk are pretty good. 75 Def is a bit mediocre, but 90 base HP and 100 SpD is fairly decent. Having access to Encore and Perish Song is also devastating to some of the most annoying teams that can possibly exist - Baton Pass.
Honestly, if you find Politoed worthless, I hate to say it but I seriously question your ability as a competitive player. You should only "sack" Politoed if you know that rain will always be out on the field. Even then, I find it a bad idea on most of my teams because Politoed provides a lot of niches outside of "summoning rain".
Yeah, defensive Politoed is a bitch. It's really annoying to take down. However, I ran ScarfToed, and in frequent battles where I knew I'd win the weather war, I found Politoed much less useful than some of my other pokemon. ScarfToed is great for revenging, but since my whole team was choiced I had more options. But that's just one apple in an orchard.
Weatherless is definitely viable. You just need solid answers to weather teams. Like others have mentioned, Kingdra can wreck most offensive Rain teams once Ferrothorn goes down. Other common Pokemon like Rotom-W and Latios/Latias are great for facing Rain teams as well.
I find offensive Sun teams most difficult for weatherless teams to handle because most Chlorophyll sweepers can outspeed every common Scarfer. Weatherless teams commonly use Heatran to combat Sun teams but they often carry Dugtrio for that very reason. Thus, strong priority users like Dragonite are handy here especially since it can't be trapped by Dugtrio.
I find offensive Sun teams most difficult for weatherless teams to handle because most Chlorophyll sweepers can outspeed every common Scarfer. Weatherless teams commonly use Heatran to combat Sun teams but they often carry Dugtrio for that very reason. Thus, strong priority users like Dragonite are handy here especially since it can't be trapped by Dugtrio.
Well, Venusaur can be checked with Heatran, and Skarmory can handle Sawsbuck so long as it doesn't have Wild Charge (though +2 Jump Kick kind of hurts). Of course Heatran might still lose to Venusuar that opt to use Earthquake or HP Ground somewhere. Sawsbuck being weak to Mach Punch, all of them being at least neutral to Bullet Punch, and taking SE damage on Ice Shards helps alleviate the pain a bit. Obviously don't get me wrong since these Pokemon are really scary still to face in the sun, but there are obviously methods a person can deploy to delay or stop a sunny sweep. Dont forget Cloud Nine Pokemon like Altaria exist too, for what it's worth. And yes I know Altaria is kind of mediocre just like the other Cloud Nine users.
Is non-weather viable? Is O.J. Simpson a murderer? Apparently not, everyone does't agree but there is a solid truth behind it. Truth is, fuck yes its still viable. I'm currently running one and it is running through people. I lost one match because Ferrothorn missed fucking Power Whip when I was 1 on 1 with a Politoed and he was at 1/3 health. Keldeo and Salamence make a great offensive core that have perfect synergy. I'm not gonna reveal my entire team but I will say at first glance it seems Terrakion weak. I thankfully have my ways of getting around him though.
I actually have been running a weatherless stall team for awhile, and I can attest to the viability of non-weather. I just posted the RMT because of this thread actually. [shameless RMT-promotion over] It can be challenging to handle opposing weather teams, but after awhile you learn how how to beat them reliably. It's actually harder for me to beat other weatherless teams. After facing Tornadus-T, SubCM Jirachi, and Toxicroack twenty times in a row, you kind of know exactly how you need to play to win. Other weatherless teams carry a more diverse field of threats, so you need to develop a game plan on the fly. I don't know if it's because I'm carrying both Heatran and Ferrothorn, but weather teams have never seemed that overpowering to me.
Everyone on this page has pretty much said that Kingdra wrecks rain teams provided you get rid of Ferrothorn. I find it more effective, and more enjoyable, to let Kingdra destroy Ferrothorn itself....
@ Lum Berry
Swift Swim
Adamant nature
36 HP / 252 Atk / 220 Spe
~ Dragon Dance
~ Outrage
~ Waterfall
~ Disable
Switch into one of Kingdra's many resistances and then Dragon Dance up. Depending on what your opponent does next, you have all the answers. If they hit you with their best attack and go for the 2HKO, you simply use Disable next turn and remove that move from their arsenal, rendering them helpless. Disable will usually go first after the speed boost from Dragon Dance (and Swift Swift is your opponent is unlucky enough to be running a rain team). Then you can choose to Dragon Dance again to boost your Attack and Speed further, or you can begin the carnage and start spamming Outrage or Waterfall. Your opponent will probably send in Ferrothorn, but even Ferrothorn dies to this set. Ferrothorn is 2HKO'd by either move after you have Dragon Danced twice. You can Disable its Power Whip if need be.
To counter a Kingdra Sweep your opponent will throw Sleep and Paralysis at you, but Lum Berry makes that strategy null and void. And Lum Berry also works wonders when Outrage finishes and you're saved from confusion.
It's not unbeatable, but so far the results from testing this set have been amazing and it shows Disable is really underrated as a move (100% accuracy, disables for 4-7 turns). And yes, this set WRECKS rain teams.
Alternative items are Leftovers and Life Orb, both of which have their merits.
Weather-less teasm are of course viable, as long as you take weather into consideration, and possibly have something that can take advantage of weather/ counter it.
Another great anti-weather pokemon is Mamoswine. With its new ability, Thick Fat, it can handle Sun teams too now. EQ wrecks Ninetales and Tyranitar, and Ice Shard / Icicle Crash puts an end to Therians, who are a common sight on Rain teams. Hail isn't safe either, since Mamoswine now gets Superpower, which can OHKO Abomasnow and many other Ice types.
Kingdra seems like a great counter to rain, but it counters sun pretty well too. It has a x4 resistance to fire, and a neutrality to Grass- something only Heatran and Chandelure can top. Frail Chlorphyll sweepers also don't like taking repeated Outrages or Draco Meteors to the face, even if Kingdra's SpA is 'just' 95.
Speaking of Heatran, Heatran can be used to counter Sun and Hail, though it's usage in Sand and Rain is quite limited. With the increased usage of Dugtrio on Sun teams, Heatran no longer has the spunk it used to. However, it's still cemented as a great counter to Sun, especially if they don't have Dugtrio.
Kingdra seems like a great counter to rain, but it counters sun pretty well too. It has a x4 resistance to fire, and a neutrality to Grass- something only Heatran and Chandelure can top. Frail Chlorphyll sweepers also don't like taking repeated Outrages or Draco Meteors to the face, even if Kingdra's SpA is 'just' 95.
Speaking of Heatran, Heatran can be used to counter Sun and Hail, though it's usage in Sand and Rain is quite limited. With the increased usage of Dugtrio on Sun teams, Heatran no longer has the spunk it used to. However, it's still cemented as a great counter to Sun, especially if they don't have Dugtrio.
Agreeing with Electrolyte on Mamoswine. On the topic of nonweather viability, I simply find it easier to runa weather myself. Having something like Ninetales, Politoed, or Ttar on your team makes your life easier by 1. removing your opponent's weather. 2. providing a nice, healthy benefit for yourself.
Even on teams that aren't weather based, carrying Ttar, or a weather inducing move can be nice just to remove your opponent's weather (and thus cause them some trouble.)
Even on teams that aren't weather based, carrying Ttar, or a weather inducing move can be nice just to remove your opponent's weather (and thus cause them some trouble.)
Actually, I have found that weatherless is pretty anti-metagame right now. The weather wars have gotten so bad that most weather teams have to dedicate two team slots to keeping their weather up (i.e., their inducer and something like dugtrio for rain to trap the other inducers or foretress for sun to keep rocks off). That leaves just four slots to really play your game, and if they other team is just a six pokemon "goodstuff" team, it's like playing 6 v 4.
I've been running a weatherless bulky offense team that has been doing very well on the ladder. The biggest advantage I've found is that if you just concede the weather type instead of fighting it, a large chunk of the opposing team doesn't have as effective a role and becomes deadweight.
Also, let's not forget that before drizzle and drought, ninetales and politoed were UU for a reason; they're mediocre at best. Right now, both are so heavily customized towards keeping their chosen weather up, they don't do much else. Tyranitar is a bit different, but honestly, it has so many weaknesses that I've found that the offensive sets can be broken down pretty quickly, while the defensive sets are pure setup bait for anything it can't hit supereffectively.
Weather is absolutely something that needs to be taken into account when team building and is a strong force in the metagame, but nonweather is absolutely viable.
I've been running a weatherless bulky offense team that has been doing very well on the ladder. The biggest advantage I've found is that if you just concede the weather type instead of fighting it, a large chunk of the opposing team doesn't have as effective a role and becomes deadweight.
Also, let's not forget that before drizzle and drought, ninetales and politoed were UU for a reason; they're mediocre at best. Right now, both are so heavily customized towards keeping their chosen weather up, they don't do much else. Tyranitar is a bit different, but honestly, it has so many weaknesses that I've found that the offensive sets can be broken down pretty quickly, while the defensive sets are pure setup bait for anything it can't hit supereffectively.
Weather is absolutely something that needs to be taken into account when team building and is a strong force in the metagame, but nonweather is absolutely viable.
Sorry but that's just wrong. It does very well against Sun but not because of Thick Fat. You still can't take a Fire Blast in the Sun, you may be able to tank a Flamethrower from Ninetales but that's probably it. Anything that is not a bulky water won't take a Sun Boosted Fire Attack well. Overheat from Choice Specs Heatran OHKO's all Dragons not named Latias/Latios in the Sun after SR and that is although it is resisted. I also don't see Mamoswine taking any Flare Blitz soon, probably a Sun Boosted Fire Punch from Dragonite but that's about it.
So what's good anti weather counters Pokemon ?
Kingdra ?
Ludicolo ?
Heatran ?
Mamoswine ?
Kingdra ?
Ludicolo ?
Heatran ?
Mamoswine ?
Blasphemy. Kingdra takes Overheat like a champ. If you wanna take into consideration Ubers, than there are Garchomp, Palkia, both Giratina Formes, Arceus-Dragon, and Reshiram who can survive it and all do something back.
You raise a good question because it seems fitting to use weather in order to win any single match without having to play your way around the opponent's team with extreme difficulty. Spamming Water-type attacks, Hurricanes and Thunders is a perfect deal for striking as fast and hard as they come and getting the job done.
Sand may function in a way that racks up residual damage and slowly whithering down the opponent bit by bit, but the objective remains the same. Weather wars are in essense, a counter to the weather you're facing. As mentioned earlier, the metagame seems to be at a point where you're stretching the boundries of team building to ensure you come out victorious in the weather war.
Essentially you will find "pilot mode" amongst strong weather teams, where experienced players ladder in succession to whipe out enemy teams with a dominant strategy.
When you don't focus your team building on catering for the vast array of threats seen inside rain/sand/sun, you will find yourself losing as many games as you are winning. If you don't run Tyranitar/Gastrodon/Kingdra and you have rain opposition, immediate advantage is in favor for your opponent, as he/she won the hardest part of the battle already.
Would non weather be more viable assuming we look at various suspects banned already? I'm talking Excadrill, Garchomp and Thundurus.
-Excadrill allows you to set Stealth Rock on the field, Rapid Spin and thrive against sand teams: would this work on non weather? Hell, yes.
-Thundurus can incapacitate fast sweepers in rain, whom are incredibly strong under such weather, and he also sports amazing coverage and the ability to take advantage of opposing rain teams.
-Garchomp was a universal masterpiece as far as Dragons were considered (until we see Salamence and Dragonite additions come flying in), and granted you the option of building a solid team around Garchomp. "My rain team can't hack the opponent's sand offense; guess I better send in Garchomp to ruin their day!"
I think non-weather is viable, but there's only several players who I could trust to actually accomplish anything with non-weather whilst trying to keep up with the common trends today.
It just seems to me the sensible option is to dedicate two or three slots to gain instant advantage in opposing weather teams and allowing the remaining half of your team to revolve around a strategy which comes down to your own imagination.
Sand may function in a way that racks up residual damage and slowly whithering down the opponent bit by bit, but the objective remains the same. Weather wars are in essense, a counter to the weather you're facing. As mentioned earlier, the metagame seems to be at a point where you're stretching the boundries of team building to ensure you come out victorious in the weather war.
Essentially you will find "pilot mode" amongst strong weather teams, where experienced players ladder in succession to whipe out enemy teams with a dominant strategy.
When you don't focus your team building on catering for the vast array of threats seen inside rain/sand/sun, you will find yourself losing as many games as you are winning. If you don't run Tyranitar/Gastrodon/Kingdra and you have rain opposition, immediate advantage is in favor for your opponent, as he/she won the hardest part of the battle already.
Would non weather be more viable assuming we look at various suspects banned already? I'm talking Excadrill, Garchomp and Thundurus.
-Excadrill allows you to set Stealth Rock on the field, Rapid Spin and thrive against sand teams: would this work on non weather? Hell, yes.
-Thundurus can incapacitate fast sweepers in rain, whom are incredibly strong under such weather, and he also sports amazing coverage and the ability to take advantage of opposing rain teams.
-Garchomp was a universal masterpiece as far as Dragons were considered (until we see Salamence and Dragonite additions come flying in), and granted you the option of building a solid team around Garchomp. "My rain team can't hack the opponent's sand offense; guess I better send in Garchomp to ruin their day!"
I think non-weather is viable, but there's only several players who I could trust to actually accomplish anything with non-weather whilst trying to keep up with the common trends today.
It just seems to me the sensible option is to dedicate two or three slots to gain instant advantage in opposing weather teams and allowing the remaining half of your team to revolve around a strategy which comes down to your own imagination.
The issue is that weather is so very dominant that creating a non-weather team means that you must have certain Pokemon on your team to succeed. My non-weather teams have always been fun in a way, but to move up the ladder in this metagame, my team HAD to have Heatran to battle sun and HAD to have Scarf Rotom-W for Hurricane Tornadus. Non-weather teams are ridiculously difficult to build in a creative way. It's a little out of hand...
Agreed, shame there isn't a OU rayquaza.
Rain or Sun (and any other weather for that matter) doesn't require a turn to set up, so you can use any move and still get your weather up. With me just coming back into the game i consider getting your waether up a pseudo Calm mind on all of your pokemon, with the defensive and offensive boni you get is crazy. I can understand why some people above think its an autopilot team.