I think Hippowdon would be better, as it can take hits better from all three pokes on Team one. I'll find a set that can be posted later. On a side note, I feel that it weather is now nessecary, if we want to find a way to stand a chance against team 1
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Counter This Pokemon [ginganinja vs TEMP V1]
- Thread starter Nix_Hex
- Start date
canno
formerly The Reptile
Electrolyte is correct, both this and our next pick are the most important pokemon to choose for Team 2 (remember, we get to choose 2 things before Team 1 can counter us iirc). This is mainly because of the pokemon we chose and the pokemon Team 1 chose. Metagross is a really heavy hitter, and Thundurus-T is a dangerous sweeper, meanwhile, Meloetta is a versatile threat that hits hard from both spectrum. Right now, we need to focus on Metagross and Thundurus-T, as both are extremely threatening. In order to choose 2 members, we need to first decide our team-style. Remember, we have a T-Wave NP Celebi and a SpDef Heatrab. Because of this reason, unless one of the weather summoners are essential to counter their team, we should NOT use a Weather Summoner. Not only that, but TTar should stay far away from our team, as every single pokemon they have hits us SE. Choosing the teams playstyle right now is crucial, as this will determine for the rest of the competition how we choose to deal with Team 1. I'm currently leaning towards a more offensive approach to dealing with Team 1, as Team 1 has made it really difficult to defensively deal with their pokemon. However, Metagross is slow and Thundurus could in theory be kept at bay with offensive pressure. If I were to nominate something right now, it would probably be Starmie and to go with a more offensive approach, as it outspeeds their entire team, and 2HKOs (Thundurus is an OHKO after Rocks) their entire current team. However, if we choose a more bulky team, Starmie wouldn't be the greatest (although Rapid Spin means it could be somewhat useful).
You know how I see this team going?
Jellicent - Leftovers
Bold - Water Absorb
248 HP 216 Def 44 Spe
Scald
Toxic
Recover
Taunt
Taken straight off the site. Long story short: It can easily handle Metagross and it provides great defensive coverage with teammates Celebi and Heatran along with basic utility. While it obviously loses to Thundurus-T, I don't think that plans for new Pokémon should be so nearsighted as to only worry about the enemy Pokémon present thus far. So instead of focusing solely on those 3 Pokémon, Jellicent can take the relevant Pokémon with ease and provide a threat for future additions to the opponent's team
Jellicent - Leftovers
Bold - Water Absorb
248 HP 216 Def 44 Spe
Scald
Toxic
Recover
Taunt
Taken straight off the site. Long story short: It can easily handle Metagross and it provides great defensive coverage with teammates Celebi and Heatran along with basic utility. While it obviously loses to Thundurus-T, I don't think that plans for new Pokémon should be so nearsighted as to only worry about the enemy Pokémon present thus far. So instead of focusing solely on those 3 Pokémon, Jellicent can take the relevant Pokémon with ease and provide a threat for future additions to the opponent's team
Temp V1
Movin' at the speed of life and I can't slow down
I must say if we do decide to go the more defensive route I quite like Jelli as an option. However I think that to counter team 1 more effectively the set could me modified to this:
Jellicent - Leftovers
Bold - Water Absorb
248 HP 216 Def 44 Spe
Scald
Toxic
Recover
Taunt
Jellicent - Leftovers
Calm - Water Absorb
248 HP 240 SDEF 20 DEF
Scald
Will-O-Wisp
Recover
Taunt
Now while the set may seem a little gimmicky it is actually a very effective set for both countering team 1 and fitting in with Heatrab & Celebi. Below I'm going to just outline how Jellicent deals each of the three current members of team 1. A lot of what I will write Zacchaeus has written already, but in a less detailed form so this is my expansion on it.
Meloetta
EDITED
Thanks to Ganj4 for pointing out my miss-calcs, while they do make the match-up slightly less favorable it is still not a lost cause. If team 1 does decide to run rain then Meloetta-A's thunder is going to give Jellicent a lot of trouble being a guaranteed 2HKO (69.79-82.11%) which means that Jelli cannot possibly switch in to it. If there is no rain thunderbolt is still a fairly similar story dealing 55.13-65.1%, also a guaranteed 2HKO. There isn't a lot Jelli can do 1-on-1 with Meloetta-A, apart from coming in at the same time on 83%+ HP or (~95% if rocks are up) and then WoW'ing. Effectively there isn't really anything Jelli can do against the Aria form, however Jelli can quite safely come in on the Pirouette form on anything, generally a CC. While there isn't really a scenario where Meloetta is going to stay in whilst in Pirouette form against Jelli, if it did happen Jelli is able to win that match up quite easily. In my original analysis I forgot to factor in the LO so this match up seemed to be in favor of Jelli, however upon re-calcing this match-up is very similar to the analysis for Thundurus-T.
Metagross
While this would be easier if using Zacchaeus' set it is still very manageable. Earthquake is Meta's best option against Jelli, and assuming that they both come in at the same time at 100% HP where Meta gets to chose what attack to use before being locked, it selects EQ, then Jelli should win the match-up. EQ will do 59.55-70.22% to Jelli, a guaranteed 2HKO, however if Jelli comes in at or near full HP, then the strategy goes; WoW (if Meta doesn't already have a status from Celebi or Heatrab), so turn 2 of the match up (assuming Meta deals max damage and WoW hits) gives us Jelli on ~36% HP Meta on ~88% and with a burn. Thats after lefties and burn damage. From there Jelli can proceed to recover stall out Meta (barring crits) or just recover to a safe amount of HP then scald it to death to lower chance of crits causing Jelli to lose the match-up. The biggest problem with this match up is making sure that Jelli comes in with high hp and isn't switching into an EQ, unless Meta is burned by Heatrab already. However with any level of skill it should be pretty easy to avoid that.
Thundurus-T
Okay from the start this was always going to be the member that Jelli wasn't really going to fare well against. Even with all the special D bulk Thundurus really is going to win the match up, even without a NP boost it has a 75% chance to OHKO Jelli with a thunder, dealing 96.77-113.64%, and with a NP thunderbolt is a guaranteed OHKO. However if team 1 does not use rain and Thundurus attacks straight up with a thunderbolt then it is only a guaranteed 2HKO, dealing 76.42-90.81%. For this match-up Jelli would really need to either come in at 100% at the same time as Thundurus, or come in on a focus blast before Thundurus got any NPs up. Jelli would then go for WoW to put a status on Thundurus seeing as Celebi can't T-Wave. After this Jelli could switch out, unless it was not useful for the rest of the team in which case it could stay in as fodder to rack up ~22% more damage to Thundurus from LO + the burn that turn, if it was still useful switch out to something else.The damage from burn + LO would really limit Thundurus' sweep, and with smart play and predictions (also depending on the rest of the team we chose) it could be taken out whilst KO'ing minimal amounts of our team. This is added to by having rocks up. A quick example scenario; Thundurus and Jelli switch in on a double down both at 100% HP no status, rocks on opponent's side and non on ours. Thundurus goes straight for thunderbolt while Jelli uses Will-o-Wisp, at the end of turn one of the match-up Jelli is on ~16% Hp at worst (max damage thunderbolt) and Thundurus is on ~53% (25% from rocks, 10% from LO, ~12% from burn). That means that if we wish to fodder Jelli as there is no further use for it, at the end of the match up Thundurus is down to ~31%, which can be managed very easily with proper predictions and play.While in no way am I saying that this is even close to a favorable match up, because there is no way in hell it is, I do believe that it isn't a guaranteed lose scenario for Jelli.
Thats basically what Jelli does against team 1 currently, now for how it fits into team 2.
The CeleTran core has been proven as a very effective core since Gen4, and FWG cores have also been proven as very effective. Personally I used to run a Cele/Jelli/Tran core and it worked incredibly well, my sets were almost identical as well, NP Celebi, phaser Tran and a very similar Sdef Jelli. I don't really feel the need to explain why FWG cores work as I assume most people will already know. As far as utility towards the remaining three members of team 1, Jelli is still a very useful member of the team. Scald can work nicely against a multitude of things as the potential burn is always nice while already dealing damage, and if team 1 does go with rain then scald itself is going to be doing nice little chunks of damage to most things. Another added bonus of Jeli if we go down the more balanced/stall path, is that it acts as a spin blocker as well, keeping those rocks on the field. However one of the key reasons why Jelli could really help this team is because of what it does to Chansey and Blissey. While toxic is preferred for dealing with them, a burn does an efficient job as well.
Chansey/Blissey
Both of these were mentioned earlier when putting team 1's members #2 & #3 in place, and for good reason. If the team is more offensively balanced, especially with choice items and life orb users, while there is also the omnipresent threat of status coming from team 2, a clerk is naturally a good option. One on one Jelli beats both of those, provided Jelli isn't already poisoned, and to a lesser degree paralyzed. Jelli will outspeed, and can then taunt on the toxic/t-wave/wish/heal bell/aromatherapy etc etc. The most common attacking move either of the two carry is seismic toss, and guess what, it doesn't even affect Jelli. It will get a bit stally, but basic principle, taunt > burn > stall. Realistically no one is going to stay in with Chans/Bliss so then predicting the switch either use WoW or Taunt to catch the switch in. Ideally that would be a WoW on any of the three members already chosen, or if team 1 decides to put a supporting member on the team later on, a taunt catching that. Also Water absorb as an ability is always nice, especially if team 1 runs rain with some powerful water attacks eg specs Politoed Hyrdo pump, which could really ruin Heatrab's day.
Sorry for the essay, but I feel that if team 2 does want to go for a less offensively orientated team, Jelli is a very very useful member of the team.
Tl;Dr - Jelli is very good if we go non offensive. That not enough detail? Just read the analysis :d
I completely agree with Electrolyte, we need to choose a strategy right now. I'm not really persuaded Regular Offense is a losing pick here, as long as it's tailor-made to beat their team. For sure I don't like the Stall idea. Thundurus can, and in fact will, break down most dedicated walls, and Meloetta is not easy to handle, either.
Starmie is a really interesting suggestion (and it's one of my favourite pokemons, to be honest), as it can 2HKO everything in their team and OHKO Thundurus with Ice Beam after SR or 1 round of LO recoil, which is invaluable to stop its sweep. However, it cannot literally switch into anything: Meloetta OHKOs with Thunder even in Pirouette forme, Metagross has a 50% chance to OHKO with EQ after Rocks, and still 2HKOs with any move not called Bullet Punch, and Thudurus...well, I don't need to explain. Starmie, on the other hand, needs Rain and Life Orb to OHKO Metagross with Hydro Pump, and cannot OHKO Meloetta at all.
Rotom-W is a good suggestion, although a bit risky. Of course, it can smack anything hard with Hydro Pump (even better in rain), but it's extremely risky to use any Electric move with a Choice item equipped. Thundurus can come in easily (maybe after you KOed something with Thunderbolt), set up NP and start to wreak havoc. You could come and revenge it later, however the shaky accuracy of Hydro Pump and the fact that it needs either SR or Rain to actually OHKO are letdown for sure. Still I prefer this to Starmie since it can easily switch into Metagross and take advantage of that. Maybe a SubSplit set would be interesting to consider, substituting on Metagross and hitting Thundurus with a LO Hydro Pump from behind a Substitute?
Jellicent is great to handle Metagross and completes our FWG core, but I feel it's a bit too much one-dimensional (it only handles Metagross). Calcs provided by Temp V1 in his (hers?) analysis appear to be somewhat flawed, since I'm getting 58.91 - 69.3% damage for a LO Thunder from Meloetta-A on Specially Defensive Jellicent, that means you cannot switch in at all (Psychic deals 33% minimum, so Meloetta can 2HKO with Psychic + Thunder after SR). I'm not even running calcs for Thundurus. Of course you shut down Metagross, but I don't think this is enough to pick Jellicent right now.
I don't like Tyranitar at all, especially the Scarf set suggested. Tyranitar makes us weaker to Fighting, Ground and Steel-type attacks, and due to its poor speed cannot revenge kill Meloetta-P at all (not sure if outspeeds even Thundurus, is the speed rounded up or down after Scarf boost?). It also cannot handle Metagross easily. If we choose this set, a Jolly nature is far better since it prevents Team 1 to prey on it with powerful, fast attackers like Terrakion, Infernape, Mienshao or whatever. Anyway, if we really want to run Sand (don't think it's a great idea at this point of the picking process), I think it's better to stick to Hippowdon, that can somewhat handle all those threats that Team 1 has already picked.
However, let me suggest another set. They opted for Earthquake over Hammer Arm on their Metagross, so I think it's mandatory to consider an Air Balloon Magnezone, that can set up on every move Metagross throws at him, eliminate it and deal quite a bit of damage to the rest of Team 2, also having the nice side effect of enabling us to take some powerful Dragon and overwhelm them after their Steel type is gone.
Magnezone @ Air Balloon
Trait: Magnet Pull
EVs: 36 HP / 252 SpA / 220 Spe
Nature: Timid
- Substitute
- Charge Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power Ice
As already pointed out, Magnezone doen't care about Metagross at all (Meteor Mash fails to break Magnezone's Substitute, enabling it to rack up Special Attack boosts; even better if you manage to switch into EQ, being able to set up a lot of boosts with ease). After having set up and eliminated Metagross, it can smack both Team 1 remaining members with powerful attacks (BoltBeam coverage is nice here, since we don't really need HP Fire: Scizor is eliminated with Electric attacks, while Ferrothorn can't really do anything if it doesn't carry Bulldoze; and HP Fire would be quite weak in rain anyway) and hopefully open up holes that Team 2 can exploit. It also opens the road for an eventual Dragonite / Salamence / CM Lati@s / other Dragon to sweep, since Metagross is the main thing that keeps Team 1 from being swept by one of those.
EDIT: Looking back to the calcs, it's probably dangerous to set up on Meteor Mash. However, you can still reliably eliminate Metagross with Thunderbolt (2HKO 98.83% of the times with SR up); this is the worst case, however, and you still can set up without any problem on every other move.
EDIT2: I somewhat managed to forget about Ferrothorn; let me comment about it now. Ferrothorn is great, especially in rain, however it doesn't seem to have great synergy with the rest of our core: it adds nasty weaknesses to Fire and Fighting, and cannot stop powerful Ground attacks, either. This means that something like non-choiced Terrakion, Lucario, Infernape (they still can go weatherless) or Mienshao can easily sweep us requiring only a free switch in; this is obviously undesirable, since all of those pokes fit perfectly in our opponents' strategy (all-out offensive or something similar). I think it's better to consider someone else to set up hazards, since taking Ferro to do so really exposes us too much to Fighting attacks (and to a lesser extent Fire).
Starmie is a really interesting suggestion (and it's one of my favourite pokemons, to be honest), as it can 2HKO everything in their team and OHKO Thundurus with Ice Beam after SR or 1 round of LO recoil, which is invaluable to stop its sweep. However, it cannot literally switch into anything: Meloetta OHKOs with Thunder even in Pirouette forme, Metagross has a 50% chance to OHKO with EQ after Rocks, and still 2HKOs with any move not called Bullet Punch, and Thudurus...well, I don't need to explain. Starmie, on the other hand, needs Rain and Life Orb to OHKO Metagross with Hydro Pump, and cannot OHKO Meloetta at all.
Rotom-W is a good suggestion, although a bit risky. Of course, it can smack anything hard with Hydro Pump (even better in rain), but it's extremely risky to use any Electric move with a Choice item equipped. Thundurus can come in easily (maybe after you KOed something with Thunderbolt), set up NP and start to wreak havoc. You could come and revenge it later, however the shaky accuracy of Hydro Pump and the fact that it needs either SR or Rain to actually OHKO are letdown for sure. Still I prefer this to Starmie since it can easily switch into Metagross and take advantage of that. Maybe a SubSplit set would be interesting to consider, substituting on Metagross and hitting Thundurus with a LO Hydro Pump from behind a Substitute?
Jellicent is great to handle Metagross and completes our FWG core, but I feel it's a bit too much one-dimensional (it only handles Metagross). Calcs provided by Temp V1 in his (hers?) analysis appear to be somewhat flawed, since I'm getting 58.91 - 69.3% damage for a LO Thunder from Meloetta-A on Specially Defensive Jellicent, that means you cannot switch in at all (Psychic deals 33% minimum, so Meloetta can 2HKO with Psychic + Thunder after SR). I'm not even running calcs for Thundurus. Of course you shut down Metagross, but I don't think this is enough to pick Jellicent right now.
I don't like Tyranitar at all, especially the Scarf set suggested. Tyranitar makes us weaker to Fighting, Ground and Steel-type attacks, and due to its poor speed cannot revenge kill Meloetta-P at all (not sure if outspeeds even Thundurus, is the speed rounded up or down after Scarf boost?). It also cannot handle Metagross easily. If we choose this set, a Jolly nature is far better since it prevents Team 1 to prey on it with powerful, fast attackers like Terrakion, Infernape, Mienshao or whatever. Anyway, if we really want to run Sand (don't think it's a great idea at this point of the picking process), I think it's better to stick to Hippowdon, that can somewhat handle all those threats that Team 1 has already picked.
However, let me suggest another set. They opted for Earthquake over Hammer Arm on their Metagross, so I think it's mandatory to consider an Air Balloon Magnezone, that can set up on every move Metagross throws at him, eliminate it and deal quite a bit of damage to the rest of Team 2, also having the nice side effect of enabling us to take some powerful Dragon and overwhelm them after their Steel type is gone.
Magnezone @ Air Balloon
Trait: Magnet Pull
EVs: 36 HP / 252 SpA / 220 Spe
Nature: Timid
- Substitute
- Charge Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power Ice
As already pointed out, Magnezone doen't care about Metagross at all (Meteor Mash fails to break Magnezone's Substitute, enabling it to rack up Special Attack boosts; even better if you manage to switch into EQ, being able to set up a lot of boosts with ease). After having set up and eliminated Metagross, it can smack both Team 1 remaining members with powerful attacks (BoltBeam coverage is nice here, since we don't really need HP Fire: Scizor is eliminated with Electric attacks, while Ferrothorn can't really do anything if it doesn't carry Bulldoze; and HP Fire would be quite weak in rain anyway) and hopefully open up holes that Team 2 can exploit. It also opens the road for an eventual Dragonite / Salamence / CM Lati@s / other Dragon to sweep, since Metagross is the main thing that keeps Team 1 from being swept by one of those.
EDIT: Looking back to the calcs, it's probably dangerous to set up on Meteor Mash. However, you can still reliably eliminate Metagross with Thunderbolt (2HKO 98.83% of the times with SR up); this is the worst case, however, and you still can set up without any problem on every other move.
EDIT2: I somewhat managed to forget about Ferrothorn; let me comment about it now. Ferrothorn is great, especially in rain, however it doesn't seem to have great synergy with the rest of our core: it adds nasty weaknesses to Fire and Fighting, and cannot stop powerful Ground attacks, either. This means that something like non-choiced Terrakion, Lucario, Infernape (they still can go weatherless) or Mienshao can easily sweep us requiring only a free switch in; this is obviously undesirable, since all of those pokes fit perfectly in our opponents' strategy (all-out offensive or something similar). I think it's better to consider someone else to set up hazards, since taking Ferro to do so really exposes us too much to Fighting attacks (and to a lesser extent Fire).
I feel that the best checks to Thundurus-T will be the speediest pokes around that can dedicate SE moves to one of their moveslots without being disadvantaged. Starmie, Gengar, Jolteon, Weavile and Rotom-W come to my mind immediately. Needless to say, these are not very bulky
Why is it not easy for for us to switch to a defensively oriented team? Because Thundurus-t does at least 30-40% (2HKOs most other things that I did not list below) to those who are the most capable of taking its hits (Wobba, Lanturn, pink blobs). The calc I did was only for Thunderbolt also did not factor in EHs or NP boosts.
The only, poke that has a reliable chance of taking out Thundy in one hit is a banded Weavile's Ice Punch. As you know, Metagross has more than one way to comfortably tank its hits (Low Kick only does 31% max. Other moves are resisted, doing 23% tops).
So if we are that focused on choosing a playstyle, I feel that HO will be the way to go. Blast through them with high-speed dudes before they stand a chance. If not, we will have to play defensively. That may not be easy, as I said before. Quagsire can be countered with another hard-hitting mon or status. If we really, really want to play defensively, I think that Hippowdon may be the way to go, shrugging off the pseudo BoltBeam thing and Focus Blast. It packs Ice Fang/Roar, which may not make it NP bait. But some of you guys do not want weather, so I'll leave the big Hippo alone for now.
@Ganji4IF I didn't Know that Zone was capable of dealing with Metagross. I'll run some calcs. I also Like the idea of a dragon on team 2.
EDIT: Well, based on Honka's damage calculator, Zone has a 56.25% chance to OHKO WITH +2. At +3 and above, there is a guaranteed chance to OHKO. This is the calc for Tbolt
EDIT2: Ganj4IF, I checked the calcs against Ferrothorn for your Magnezone set. While I am sure that Ferrothorn cannot break the subs, Magnezone needs +6 SPA before it can safely 2HKO Ferrothorn with Tbolt. This is just a perfect opportunity to set up EHs and switch to Thundurus-T for it to nuetralize one Electric attack. Switch to Metagross and so on. We need a hazard setter to prevent them from playing such switching games without thinking twice
Why is it not easy for for us to switch to a defensively oriented team? Because Thundurus-t does at least 30-40% (2HKOs most other things that I did not list below) to those who are the most capable of taking its hits (Wobba, Lanturn, pink blobs). The calc I did was only for Thunderbolt also did not factor in EHs or NP boosts.
The only, poke that has a reliable chance of taking out Thundy in one hit is a banded Weavile's Ice Punch. As you know, Metagross has more than one way to comfortably tank its hits (Low Kick only does 31% max. Other moves are resisted, doing 23% tops).
So if we are that focused on choosing a playstyle, I feel that HO will be the way to go. Blast through them with high-speed dudes before they stand a chance. If not, we will have to play defensively. That may not be easy, as I said before. Quagsire can be countered with another hard-hitting mon or status. If we really, really want to play defensively, I think that Hippowdon may be the way to go, shrugging off the pseudo BoltBeam thing and Focus Blast. It packs Ice Fang/Roar, which may not make it NP bait. But some of you guys do not want weather, so I'll leave the big Hippo alone for now.
@Ganji4IF I didn't Know that Zone was capable of dealing with Metagross. I'll run some calcs. I also Like the idea of a dragon on team 2.
EDIT: Well, based on Honka's damage calculator, Zone has a 56.25% chance to OHKO WITH +2. At +3 and above, there is a guaranteed chance to OHKO. This is the calc for Tbolt
EDIT2: Ganj4IF, I checked the calcs against Ferrothorn for your Magnezone set. While I am sure that Ferrothorn cannot break the subs, Magnezone needs +6 SPA before it can safely 2HKO Ferrothorn with Tbolt. This is just a perfect opportunity to set up EHs and switch to Thundurus-T for it to nuetralize one Electric attack. Switch to Metagross and so on. We need a hazard setter to prevent them from playing such switching games without thinking twice
There are two Pokemon that I want to talk about right now, I may post more later and critique more, but for now I'll just talk about Starmie and Ferrothorn
Basically, Starmie is outsped by Meloetta-P (unless Scarfed). When in Pirouette forme, Starmie can't switch in as TBolt is a guaranteed 2HKO while, in Aria forme, TBolt has a chance to OHKO and can 2HKO by using Relic Song then TBolt in Pirouette forme, thus outspeeding. Thundurus-T easily OHKOs with TBolt and Metagross will 2HKO with Meteor Mash, and easily OHKO with a switch-boosted Pursuit.
Ferrothorn, however, makes Team 1's potential plan of using a rain team annoying. The easiest and way to get rid of this damnable thing is with fire and, obviously, rain reduces the damage. At a glance, I'd say Ferrothorn is the best choice of the suggestions so far (although it's set up fodder for Thundurus)... but that's just my opinion, and I don't have any better offensive suggestions for you guys.
EDIT: After reading through again, Zone seems like your best choice, especially in an offensive/balanced team. If you can switch it in on a CB Earthquake then you pretty much have a sweep right there. There would be no reason for you to not set up to +6 behind a sub and deal with everything Team 1 has... and if, somehow, it's stopped, then all you need is a dragon on your team to finish up. Thundurus could still be a problem, but you can just add CM Latias to deal with that, seeing as it doesn't have Metagross to counter it anymore. (Now I'm kind of wishing I'd voted for Genesect!)
Basically, Starmie is outsped by Meloetta-P (unless Scarfed). When in Pirouette forme, Starmie can't switch in as TBolt is a guaranteed 2HKO while, in Aria forme, TBolt has a chance to OHKO and can 2HKO by using Relic Song then TBolt in Pirouette forme, thus outspeeding. Thundurus-T easily OHKOs with TBolt and Metagross will 2HKO with Meteor Mash, and easily OHKO with a switch-boosted Pursuit.
Ferrothorn, however, makes Team 1's potential plan of using a rain team annoying. The easiest and way to get rid of this damnable thing is with fire and, obviously, rain reduces the damage. At a glance, I'd say Ferrothorn is the best choice of the suggestions so far (although it's set up fodder for Thundurus)... but that's just my opinion, and I don't have any better offensive suggestions for you guys.
EDIT: After reading through again, Zone seems like your best choice, especially in an offensive/balanced team. If you can switch it in on a CB Earthquake then you pretty much have a sweep right there. There would be no reason for you to not set up to +6 behind a sub and deal with everything Team 1 has... and if, somehow, it's stopped, then all you need is a dragon on your team to finish up. Thundurus could still be a problem, but you can just add CM Latias to deal with that, seeing as it doesn't have Metagross to counter it anymore. (Now I'm kind of wishing I'd voted for Genesect!)
It's time team 2 also thought about scarf Genesect.
U-turn is SE against Meloetta-P
+0 ice beam nearly 1HKOes Thundurus-T (and is guaranteed after rocks)
Flamethrower roasts metagross (and genesect resists his Stab)
Thunder(bolt) will take care of Politoed if it is picked.
An alternative is a flame charge with LO set but it doesn't outspeed thundy-t and thunder is a clean OHKO (and so is ice beam from genesect). I'm not too fond of it against this team though.
This makes their picks much harder. They would like heatran to counter it but they also want rain.
Another good set would be rock polish Landorus-T. It easily sets up on metagross then proceeds to OHKO it and Thundy-T (Eq/SE).
U-turn is SE against Meloetta-P
+0 ice beam nearly 1HKOes Thundurus-T (and is guaranteed after rocks)
Flamethrower roasts metagross (and genesect resists his Stab)
Thunder(bolt) will take care of Politoed if it is picked.
An alternative is a flame charge with LO set but it doesn't outspeed thundy-t and thunder is a clean OHKO (and so is ice beam from genesect). I'm not too fond of it against this team though.
This makes their picks much harder. They would like heatran to counter it but they also want rain.
Another good set would be rock polish Landorus-T. It easily sets up on metagross then proceeds to OHKO it and Thundy-T (Eq/SE).
Guys, remember you are required to post a full set (sprite, ability, item, moves, EVs, IVs if necessary). Many of you just mentioned their nomination without post any set, Starmie, Genesect and Rock Polish Lando-T were suggested without an actual set. We can guess what set you were referring to, but we cannot be sure, and it's quite hard to discuss about an unknown set...
yeah, what Ganj said. Also, those who posted multiple sets (including I) should probably pick their favs now, to prevent confusion when voting and all that crazy stuff.
of my sets, I actually prefer Rotom over Ferrothorn, because every member of Team one's team is pretty heavily crippled by Trick, and Rotom also dissuades Team 1 from choosing Rain, something it porbably wants to go for.
Rotom-W @ Choice Scarf
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid nature
-Thunderbolt
-Volt Switch
-Hydro Pump
-Trick
In the rain, Rotom is a beast- OHKO'ing Metagross and Thundurus, and dealing massive amounts to Meloetta. Let's see how much they want to risk it.
of my sets, I actually prefer Rotom over Ferrothorn, because every member of Team one's team is pretty heavily crippled by Trick, and Rotom also dissuades Team 1 from choosing Rain, something it porbably wants to go for.
Rotom-W @ Choice Scarf
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid nature
-Thunderbolt
-Volt Switch
-Hydro Pump
-Trick
In the rain, Rotom is a beast- OHKO'ing Metagross and Thundurus, and dealing massive amounts to Meloetta. Let's see how much they want to risk it.
name: Rock Polish
move 1: Rock Polish
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Flamethrower
move 4: Bug Buzz
item: Life Orb
ability: Download
nature: Modest
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
This beastly set is able to blast things into oblivion with its base 120 special attack once it has gotten a rock polish up. Bug Buzz is there for countering Meloetta. I have replaced Thunderbolt with Flamethrower, so that Magnezone And the Metagross will think twice before switching in. It is still a good idea to have a solid counter to the pink blobs.
I'm just going to say an obvious counter to the above Genesect is Chandelure. It resists everything the set can do, and easily OHKOs back with Fire Blast, even in the rain.
Give it specs and it has enough power to easily OHKO Celebi with Shadow Ball as well as have a chance to OHKO Heatrab with HP Ground. Meanwhile, there isn't much they can do back. Even Thunder Wave isn't the biggest problem because Specs Chandy isn't the fastest poke in the world. (You might be able to counter it in your next choice, but then you'd likely be opening up a weakness to something you hadn't thought of, like T1 seems to have done with Metagross and Magnezone.)
EDIT: Honestly, I'm more and more convinced that Team 2's best pick is going to be Magnezone followed by CM Latias. You can quite happily bait Metagross in with CM Latias, then switch into Mangezone to set up and remove it. Then you can potentially sweep with Magnezone and you'll have removed T1's pre-emptive Latias counter.
Give it specs and it has enough power to easily OHKO Celebi with Shadow Ball as well as have a chance to OHKO Heatrab with HP Ground. Meanwhile, there isn't much they can do back. Even Thunder Wave isn't the biggest problem because Specs Chandy isn't the fastest poke in the world. (You might be able to counter it in your next choice, but then you'd likely be opening up a weakness to something you hadn't thought of, like T1 seems to have done with Metagross and Magnezone.)
EDIT: Honestly, I'm more and more convinced that Team 2's best pick is going to be Magnezone followed by CM Latias. You can quite happily bait Metagross in with CM Latias, then switch into Mangezone to set up and remove it. Then you can potentially sweep with Magnezone and you'll have removed T1's pre-emptive Latias counter.
I agree with this, but I was wondering: it's better to take Latias now (exposing us to a Genesect / Scizor counterpick) or to pick something useful in general and delay our Dragon of choice for our last 2 picks? For example, picking Starmie after Magnezone opens the possibility to pick Dragonite later, for example, while not excluding Latias at all (and Starmie being awesome overall and in particular to check Thundurus). This gives them much less informations, and restricts their choices as they would need to counter a much wider range of threats.
Man, have I missed a few suggestions.
Concerning Magnezone - it's actually not that safe of a pick against Metagross.
If Metagross is locked into Meteor Mash; keep in mind it has a chance to boost it's attack - so the damage goes up to a minimum of 30%, always taking out Magnezone's sub; so 'Zone will have to start fishing for a miss behind his sub, or lose most of his health while subbing up.
'Zone also gets destroyed by the other 2 'mons on the team (Close Combat / Focus Miss). On top of that, Thundy absorbs 2 of your moves and Meloetta has 128 SpDef.
Rotom-W is probably the best suggestion we'll find, as it deters team 1 from using rain, provides momentum, and completes a FWG core.
Concerning Magnezone - it's actually not that safe of a pick against Metagross.
If Metagross is locked into Meteor Mash; keep in mind it has a chance to boost it's attack - so the damage goes up to a minimum of 30%, always taking out Magnezone's sub; so 'Zone will have to start fishing for a miss behind his sub, or lose most of his health while subbing up.
'Zone also gets destroyed by the other 2 'mons on the team (Close Combat / Focus Miss). On top of that, Thundy absorbs 2 of your moves and Meloetta has 128 SpDef.
Rotom-W is probably the best suggestion we'll find, as it deters team 1 from using rain, provides momentum, and completes a FWG core.
Sticking to the FWG cores, I choose Gastrodon!
Gastrodon@Leftovers
252 HP/252 SpD/4 SpA
Ability: Storm Drain
Nature: Calm
-Earth Power
-Scald
-Toxic
-Recover
Taken straight from his analysis. Gastro has great type synergy with Heatran and Celebi and does a pretty well job with handling the 3 pokemon on Team 1. Gastro absorbs any electric attacks from Thunderus-T and Meloetta and is resistant to BP and Meteor Mash from Metagross. Metagross and Meloetta really cannot afford to take a burn from Scald, either. Any future pokemon on Team 1 with a water attack will have to worry about that Storm Drain boost, getting toxic stalled, and/or burned by Scald.
Gastrodon@Leftovers
252 HP/252 SpD/4 SpA
Ability: Storm Drain
Nature: Calm
-Earth Power
-Scald
-Toxic
-Recover
Taken straight from his analysis. Gastro has great type synergy with Heatran and Celebi and does a pretty well job with handling the 3 pokemon on Team 1. Gastro absorbs any electric attacks from Thunderus-T and Meloetta and is resistant to BP and Meteor Mash from Metagross. Metagross and Meloetta really cannot afford to take a burn from Scald, either. Any future pokemon on Team 1 with a water attack will have to worry about that Storm Drain boost, getting toxic stalled, and/or burned by Scald.
Magnezone's main goal is to remove Metagross, not to set up. If Metagross is locked into Meteor Mash, you just 2HKO him with Thunderbolt. Even if you try and set up, of course an attack boost makes him able to break your substitutes, but the chance is only 20%, which is comparable to the chance of missing. Not the safest way, but you're not forced to attempt it, either. And, you seem to be forgetting the fact that a switch into EQ, Bullet Punch or Pursuit is a free +2 and Substitute, at least.
For the rest of your reply, again, the goal of Zone is not to counter Meloetta or Thundurus, but to remove Metagross and allows to our future sweeper to go to town on Team 1 after Steels are removed. If we really want to counter Thundurus we can just pick something like Gastrodon (like the guy above me just posted, I see), and we can do it even later. It's just a different role. And, to be honest, Magnezone OHKOs Thundurus via HP Ice at +1, so Volt Absorb is not a concern at all.
I was going to suggest Gastrodon too, since Rotom-W runs the risk of getting volt-absorbed by Thundurus - which means Nasty Plot time.
The only problem I see is not being able to hard counter Thundurus, but Toxic stall can surely work.
Virizion could be a potential hassle, though.
The only problem I see is not being able to hard counter Thundurus, but Toxic stall can surely work.
Virizion could be a potential hassle, though.
@ Ganj: Yes, it counters Metagross 100%; but I feel it doesn't do much for the team when compared to Rotom-W (Momentum, Hydro Pumps, Trick) or Gastrodon (Great wall, absorbs water, toxic / burn).
It can absolutely destroy Metagross; but it needs to not have takin a single hit beforehand - so what we're doing is basically trading 1 slot for 1 slot; because Metagross won't come out until Magnezone's balloon is out, and Magnezone won't come out until Metagross hits the field.
It can absolutely destroy Metagross; but it needs to not have takin a single hit beforehand - so what we're doing is basically trading 1 slot for 1 slot; because Metagross won't come out until Magnezone's balloon is out, and Magnezone won't come out until Metagross hits the field.
Like Xellacalle, I think that Magnezone and Rotom-W are the best choices for t2. For Gastro, we might be leaning too too much to the special side and then, t2 may be unable to counter the other mixed/physical attackers that t1 throws this way.
Awwww man this is the choice I was going to post :(. Nonetheless I think this is the perfect 'mon for Team 2. It completes the FWG core, which is tried-tested and totally badass. This one Pokemon is capable of deterring the pickup of Politoed, meaning that unless they bite the bullet and run an almost Water-less Rain team, Meloetta and Thundurus-T become far more manageable due to Thunderbolt over Thunder. And even if they do run Rain this Pokemon still laughs off any attack they will be throwing at them. I wholeheartedly support this pick.Sticking to the FWG cores, I choose Gastrodon!
Gastrodon@Leftovers
252 HP/252 SpD/4 SpA
Ability: Storm Drain
Nature: Calm
-Earth Power
-Scald
-Toxic
-Recover
Taken straight from his analysis. Gastro has great type synergy with Heatran and Celebi and does a pretty well job with handling the 3 pokemon on Team 1. Gastro absorbs any electric attacks from Thunderus-T and Meloetta and is resistant to BP and Meteor Mash from Metagross. Metagross and Meloetta really cannot afford to take a burn from Scald, either. Any future pokemon on Team 1 with a water attack will have to worry about that Storm Drain boost, getting toxic stalled, and/or burned by Scald.
You make a good point. It's probably best to pick the dragon later. As for the relatively useful pick now, Gastrodon seems a reasonable choice, seeing as it's at least a check to Thundurus and completes the FWG core, as stated, and it discourages water attackers (That don't carry HP Grass) with storm drain.
Personally I still think Magnezone should be chosen. But perhaps Magnezone and Gastrodon for these two picks, and Latias or another dragon later is reasonable.
EDIT: Rotom-W seems reasonable too, it does certainly discourage the use of rain, or at the very least encourages something that Quadruple resists water or is immune to it (Gastrodon, Jellicent and Lanturn come to mind)
Ninetales @ Leftovers/Life Orb
Trait: Drought
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Pain Split
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power [Ground/Ice]
Let's DO this shit!
2HKO's both Thundurus and Meloetta under Sun with or without Life Orb. HP Ground 2 HKO's Heatran with Life Orb but without has only a 4% chance to 2HKO. However it may be better to run HP Ice depending on the coverage it will need
Metragross is 1HKO'ed by Fire Blast no matter EV spread he runs unless Rain is up
Pain Split can help with recovering HP lost through Subs and potential LO Recoil.
Sun itself gives us access to powerful Chloro-sweepers (to complete a FWG core) to help outspeed Meloetta-P as well as reducing Thunder's accuracy and neutering potential water attacks.
In a world of Rain and Sand, nobody expects the Sunny Inquisition which could be the key to unlocking victory for Team 2.
my opinions:
Rotom-W- watch team 1's face contort as their Thundurus-T switch in gets Trick a Scarf. With no Volt Switch, it will definitely be crippled. Hydro Pump hits all members of team 1 hard, Volt Switch is awesome momentum manipulation, and Tbolt helps vs Rain. Only problem is Thundurus-T, but because it's so obvious it can be easily played around. Thundurus-T is also outsped and 2HKO'd by HP, so it's a very shaky answer, unless Rotom-W uses Volt Switch. Hopefully 2,4 will help us win the Rotom vs Thundurus war.
Jellicent- Meloetta hard counters this one too, unless you catch it in P forme, as Thunderbolt is a 2HKO from Aria. It might even be a 2HKO from Piruette, have to check. The thing I don't like about this one is, it loses to the one thing we are trying to prevent team 1 from using: Rain.
Genesect- team 1 throws in a Dugtrio and a fire type, and we're dead. Also mention of Chandelure weakness, as Xelacelle pointed out.
Magnezone- interesting pick, but it's kind of set up fodder for Thundurus-T and OHKO fodder for Meloetta-P. No HP Fire scares me too, as without it you lose to Metagross.
Gastrodon- THAT CELEBI WEAKNESS. Celebi with Giga Drain/U-Turn/Earth Power, they win. Celebi isn't a bad choice for them now either, as it counters Rain counters and tanks status. Not to mention it walls our Celebi pretty hard when in rain.
Ninetales- probably the most interesting submission yet. Unless you want to use dugtrio and friends, Ninetales makes us reliant on weather when they can just (hypothetically) let's say use Rain.
I know there's a lot of hype about Rain, but it's a pretty serious matter, especially since team 1 gets final pick. We need solid counters to Rain, or believe me, team 1 will use it.
Rotom-W- watch team 1's face contort as their Thundurus-T switch in gets Trick a Scarf. With no Volt Switch, it will definitely be crippled. Hydro Pump hits all members of team 1 hard, Volt Switch is awesome momentum manipulation, and Tbolt helps vs Rain. Only problem is Thundurus-T, but because it's so obvious it can be easily played around. Thundurus-T is also outsped and 2HKO'd by HP, so it's a very shaky answer, unless Rotom-W uses Volt Switch. Hopefully 2,4 will help us win the Rotom vs Thundurus war.
Jellicent- Meloetta hard counters this one too, unless you catch it in P forme, as Thunderbolt is a 2HKO from Aria. It might even be a 2HKO from Piruette, have to check. The thing I don't like about this one is, it loses to the one thing we are trying to prevent team 1 from using: Rain.
Genesect- team 1 throws in a Dugtrio and a fire type, and we're dead. Also mention of Chandelure weakness, as Xelacelle pointed out.
Magnezone- interesting pick, but it's kind of set up fodder for Thundurus-T and OHKO fodder for Meloetta-P. No HP Fire scares me too, as without it you lose to Metagross.
Gastrodon- THAT CELEBI WEAKNESS. Celebi with Giga Drain/U-Turn/Earth Power, they win. Celebi isn't a bad choice for them now either, as it counters Rain counters and tanks status. Not to mention it walls our Celebi pretty hard when in rain.
Ninetales- probably the most interesting submission yet. Unless you want to use dugtrio and friends, Ninetales makes us reliant on weather when they can just (hypothetically) let's say use Rain.
I know there's a lot of hype about Rain, but it's a pretty serious matter, especially since team 1 gets final pick. We need solid counters to Rain, or believe me, team 1 will use it.