BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

[Jukain]

Lapras always catches me off guard. You'll run into once in maybe 100 battles and it seriously takes me by surprise every time. Its even cleanly sweep me before, definitely an underrated threat. Its also has just the right amount of bulk, living something that I'd definitely thought would KO and then recover 100%.

On a similar note a 'mon I've been tinkering with is Offensive Gorebyss.

Gorebyss @ White Herb
Trait: Hydration
EVs: 56 HP / 252 SAtk / 200 Spd
Modest nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Shell Smash
- Rest
- Surf
- Ice Beam / Baton Pass

The idea is that instead of just being a one trick pony(smash and pass) Gorebyss can actually pose a serious threat to rival teams. Now for the full offensive groove you'd run Ice Beam for coverage but it is seriously hard to not use Baton Pass with this thing, especially when you're running screens(like me). Common rain stall teams tend to just fold in against thing thing once water immunes are gone / Dragonite. The key, as with Lapras, is that a free, no draw back Rest is amazing.

Anyway this guy is really cool and has been surprising a lot of my opponents recently. Be warned though, even after +2 Gorebyss is still outspeed by many common scarfers.

That is a neat set, however, I think that Baton Pass should be the main option, as Gorebyss's main job is to SmashPass most of the time, rather than sweep itself.

 

[emirinho]

how does your team beat dugtrio sun? ninetales wins against abomasnow easily and the heatran you're carrying as a sun check will get trapkilled by dugtrio. also, genesect is a common sight on sun teams now, making it even harder for heatran to avoid getting trapped since it's a great switch into genesect but can get u-turned and trapped easily.

Maybe a scarfed Landorus can help him...

 

[DrunkDemon]

Maybe a scarfed Landorus can help him...

Another option is giving Heatran either Air Balloon or Substitute. Obviously Air Balloon will let you switch out, but if the ease with which it can be removed is unappealing, having a Substitute up can prevent Dugtrio from revenge killing Heatran.

 

[Lavos]

Another option is giving Heatran either Air Balloon or Substitute. Obviously Air Balloon will let you switch out, but if the ease with which it can be removed is unappealing, having a Substitute up can prevent Dugtrio from revenge killing Heatran.

or you could use Jimbon's gorgeous RestTalk + Shed Shell set, which should be used by every Sun-weak team ever

Heatran @ Shed Shell
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Lava Plume
- Roar

seriously this is a great set, though if you guys start using it my Sun team will go bust lol

 

[Ames]

Wow I have been trying to find the perfect heatran set for my team and it looks like you just posted it. That looks to be exactly what I need (on paper).

 

[tehy]

Yeah, i'm already using that set, i may have posted in one of these threads. Just a great fuck you to dugtrio and such.

 

[Lavos]

Thank Jimbon, not me. He's a smart man for devising this.

 

[Electrolyte]

I know that beating Dugtrio is not the only thing that set does, but in terms of nailing Dugtrio the Magma Storm set works a lot better, IMO. Magma Storm KO'es Dugtrio on the switch in, and idgaf sashes and sturdies- meaning, fuck you shed shell Skarm and Forretress. Even if you miss, you can still escape- because of your balloon. That set also has quite a lot of sweeping potential- base 130 SpA is nothing to laugh at, especially when Heatran can 'double' its power for 8 turns. Instead of running away, trapper Heatran faces Duggy like a man.

I don't mean to say that that set sucks, however. I've seen enough battles where Sun teams just barely win by getting a crit on an opposing Heatran and wiping it out because Heatran doesn't usually carry recovery. Time for some hair ripping, rage inducing fun. Took you 25 turns to knock Heatran to 75%? Haha, Rest. Still, the only few things that set has over the regular specially defensive set is this:

Pros:
~Recovery- wall more, wall longer
~Ability to escape Dugtrio
~Doesn't mind status (but really, Twave is the only thing to worry about mott)

Cons
~No Toxic
~No SR
~No annoying Protect scouting
~Weakness to Choiced Landorus
~Slightly more luck based

Still, I will forever remain loyal to Tobes's trapper set.

 

[Jimbon]

The main difference between Balloon Tran and Shed Shell Tran is that they serve two different purposes. While both can actually deal with Dugtrio, Shed Shell Heatran can switch out of Dugtrio 100% of the time, while Balloon Tran only needs prior damage on it whether it be by Genesect's U-Turn or a Ninetales Hidden Power, and then Magma Storm cannot beat Dugtrio. Dugtrio can also switch in if Stealth Rock isnt up and still beat Heatran. If Heatran wants to lay down Stealth Rock as Dugtrio breaks it's Balloon, then congrats, you just lost Heatran, Dugtrio will get Stealth Rock up and live Heatran's Magma Storm with its Sash and you lose Heatran to an Earthquake. Shed Shell Tran still beats many of the same things Magma Storm Tran does, but it also gains the additional ability of beating Tornadus, Latios and Dugtrio, while also having some insurance against Special sweepers in general with Rest.

I still feel like you're forgetting the point of this set. Shed Shell Heatran and Magma Storm Tran do different things, of course they have their pros and cons. If you're using it on a Sun Team, then the main benefit of it is being able to continually switch into Tornadus and Latios, something that no other variant of Heatran can do. It eases the pressure off of Ninetales as you don't have to keep taking hits, and potentially lose the weather war early on in a match. Shed Shell Tran is also a much better defensive pivot, because of the recovery it has.

 

[EspeonX]

I saw a variant of a trapper Heatran on the BW Article for Sun, that works well for me, as I needed a hazard setter for my team that could...do stuff:



Heatran (M) @ Air Balloon
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 104 Def / 124 SAtk / 28 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Magma Storm
- Earth Power
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt

Apparently, the EVs helped to take Superpower from T-Tar and such better. It does what I want it to do, but I miss the speed I would get from a normal Heatran. I used SR over Sub, because I needed hazards.

 

[tehy]

The main difference between Balloon Tran and Shed Shell Tran is that they serve two different purposes. While both can actually deal with Dugtrio, Shed Shell Heatran can switch out of Dugtrio 100% of the time, while Balloon Tran only needs prior damage on it whether it be by Genesect's U-Turn or a Ninetales Hidden Power, and then Magma Storm cannot beat Dugtrio. Dugtrio can also switch in if Stealth Rock isnt up and still beat Heatran. If Heatran wants to lay down Stealth Rock as Dugtrio breaks it's Balloon, then congrats, you just lost Heatran, Dugtrio will get Stealth Rock up and live Heatran's Magma Storm with its Sash and you lose Heatran to an Earthquake. Shed Shell Tran still beats many of the same things Magma Storm Tran does, but it also gains the additional ability of beating Tornadus, Latios and Dugtrio, while also having some insurance against Special sweepers in general with Rest.


I still feel like you're forgetting the point of this set. Shed Shell Heatran and Magma Storm Tran do different things, of course they have their pros and cons. If you're using it on a Sun Team, then the main benefit of it is being able to continually switch into Tornadus and Latios, something that no other variant of Heatran can do. It eases the pressure off of Ninetales as you don't have to keep taking hits, and potentially lose the weather war early on in a match. Shed Shell Tran is also a much better defensive pivot, because of the recovery it has.

Well, you can't live magma storm with a sash, since after it hits it does 6% damage. On the other hand, let's say i lead with genesect and say, uturn to anything that dies to a fire attack. I bring in dugtrio and GG. Magma storm's a nice surprise that does kill dugtrio, but then again if the surprise fails then you are screwed. Not to mention it can miss, so you will lose 1/4th of the matches involving focus sash dugtrio.

 

[Roie]

Isn't the 6% dealt when the turn ends? Meaning wouldn't Dugtrio KO Heatran before it dies to the secondary effects of Magma Storm? Anyway you look at it, shed shell is the superior option here. But if you think, like Jimbon said, getting up SR at the cost of losing your Heatran is worth it, then by all means run balloon. But remember that shed shell Heatran can do the exact same thing without ever falling victim to Dugtrio; all it needs is a free switch in to some Poke not named Dugtrio.

The set is designed to kill dugtrio on the switchin, theoretically after you've been u-turned (so they know they can safely switch to dugtrio for the trap on heatran). Dugtrio outspeeds heatran so if he doesn't kill dugtrio on the switchin you have to leave because its a ohko without balloon, before you get a chance for a magma storm.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

RestTalk Heatran in my opinion just isn't good. It's a liability against rain teams, and RestTalk in general is not very good on this gen due to the new sleep mechanics. To me, it's just better to use Air Baloon Heatran or use a levitating Pokémon capable of taking Dugtrio. It's much easier than using a set that is going to be instantly defeated by Earthquakes, Hydro Pumps (especially rain-boosted ones), Close Combats and Secret Swords.

 

[Shouting]

Hmm...well in a sense Any Heatran is a liability against Rain teams. Unless it's something like a Sunny Day + SolarBeam set, but still that has some difficulties against all the water moves flying around. SunnyBeamer Heatran is incredibly fun to use against weather though.

Has anyone tried Scarf Keldeo? I have, and it literally steamrolls through offensive teams with it's amazing Speed and power in the rain. The fact that most water resists on offensive teams are dragons like Latios, they can easily be 2HKO'd without much trouble. The surprise factor is amazing, as people bring in Tornadus-T to revenge only to be OHKO'd. It also outspeeds Genesect, which is awesome because it's everywhere.

 

[tehy]

RestTalk Heatran in my opinion just isn't good. It's a liability against rain teams, and RestTalk in general is not very good on this gen due to the new sleep mechanics. To me, it's just better to use Air Baloon Heatran or use a levitating Pokémon capable of taking Dugtrio. It's much easier than using a set that is going to be instantly defeated by Earthquakes, Hydro Pumps (especially rain-boosted ones), Close Combats and Secret Swords.

And normal heatran isn't? Balloontran can take EQS with the balloon, but he can't, you know, HEAL.

Restalk does suck this gen, but no so much on heatran, especially with roar on it. That way, things that force you out can be roared away if you're lucky. Besides, often things that "force heatran out" suck at taking lava plumes to the face, being either physical or non-resistant. So it's not a huge deal.

And actually i find he's pretty good against rain teams, if they've got a loom take the spore, burn stuff like politoed on the switch-in, so on and so forth.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

And normal heatran isn't? Balloontran can take EQS with the balloon, but he can't, you know, HEAL.

Restalk does suck this gen, but no so much on heatran, especially with roar on it. That way, things that force you out can be roared away if you're lucky. Besides, often things that "force heatran out" suck at taking lava plumes to the face, being either physical or non-resistant. So it's not a huge deal.

And actually i find he's pretty good against rain teams, if they've got a loom take the spore, burn stuff like politoed on the switch-in, so on and so forth.

Well, I am using an Air Balloon Heatran to check Gliscor and dragons with Hidden Power Ice. It still doesn't fare well against rain teams, but it can still check common threats found on rain teams, such as Dragonite and Ferrothorn. Defensive variants can even check Volcarona (believe or not some people use Volcarona on rain teams). Also, Heatran is good against non-rain teams, especially sun teams.

What I mean is that Heatran is not very good against rain teams, with the sole exception of Sunny Day + SolarBeam set. But RestTalk Heatran tends to be much more helpless against rain teams than other defensive and offensive variants. I don't care that Balloontran cannot heal because one of it's main jobs is to check dragons, and it's an all-out offensive variant that doesn't mind having no recovery (but it's nice to have something like Wish support).

As a last note: Most Politoed don't mind being burned, defensive variants may do but they can still destroy you with Scald.

Has anyone tried Scarf Keldeo? I have, and it literally steamrolls through offensive teams with it's amazing Speed and power in the rain. The fact that most water resists on offensive teams are dragons like Latios, they can easily be 2HKO'd without much trouble. The surprise factor is amazing, as people bring in Tornadus-T to revenge only to be OHKO'd. It also outspeeds Genesect, which is awesome because it's everywhere.

Scarf Keldeo is awesome, but only on rain teams, where the rain provides the same power as a Choice Specs to it's Water attacks. Still, this thing is amazing. It can outspeed and OHKO, using Hydro Pump, most things that doesn't resist it's attacks and aren't named Blissey and Chansey. It is also the bane of offensive teams with fast and frail sweepers. Problem is that outside of rain teams, Keldeo is not very good as a scarf revenge killer. There are many things that do this job better, Landorus on a sand team is a example.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

Have we completely forgotten about Shuca Berry? It's not broken by attacks, and will still let heatran beat dugtrio.

...man, I've probably just brought a monster back into the metagame.

 

[emirinho]

Have we completely forgotten about Shuca Berry? It's not broken by attacks, and will still let heatran beat dugtrio.

...man, I've probably just brought a monster back into the metagame.

Shuca Berry is not a good option because Heatran already cant do anything to Dugtrio as it can even get OHKOed by eq and it doesnt pay off to put an item just because of dugtrio. Shed Shell helps you avoid Magnezone and Dugtrio plus get a nice switch in and take the momentum.

 

[tehy]

Well, I am using an Air Balloon Heatran to check Gliscor and dragons with Hidden Power Ice. It still doesn't fare well against rain teams, but it can still check common threats found on rain teams, such as Dragonite and Ferrothorn. Defensive variants can even check Volcarona (believe or not some people use Volcarona on rain teams). Also, Heatran is good against non-rain teams, especially sun teams.

What I mean is that Heatran is not very good against rain teams, with the sole exception of Sunny Day + SolarBeam set. But RestTalk Heatran tends to be much more helpless against rain teams than other defensive and offensive variants. I don't care that Balloontran cannot heal because one of it's main jobs is to check dragons, and it's an all-out offensive variant that doesn't mind having no recovery (but it's nice to have something like Wish support).

As a last note: Most Politoed don't mind being burned, defensive variants may do but they can still destroy you with Scald.



Scarf Keldeo is awesome, but only on rain teams, where the rain provides the same power as a Choice Specs to it's Water attacks. Still, this thing is amazing. It can outspeed and OHKO, using Hydro Pump, most things that doesn't resist it's attacks and aren't named Blissey and Chansey. It is also the bane of offensive teams with fast and frail sweepers. Problem is that outside of rain teams, Keldeo is not very good as a scarf revenge killer. There are many things that do this job better, Landorus on a sand team is a example.

Firstly:All politoeds mind being burned. Easiest way to win the weather war is to burn politoed;defensive ones can't heal and offensive ones drop like a stone. Secondly, how are other versions better against rain? Mostly all they do is lava plume stuff. Maybe they SR, but i already have sr. Maybe they toxic, but eh.

Secondly:Of course you don't care that balloontran can't heal. But I do, because i have an effing stall team. So i can't exactly go that route,meaning shed shell is the better option. Also, i care that it can be popped, because on a stall team, it WILL be popped.

As for scarf keldeo, even on a rain team, meh. It's pretty good there i guess, but i prefer it to attack and to make something else your scarfer.

To the above;also wobbuffett, gothitelle, and... mean look murkrow, not that anyone really uses it any more.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

Shuca Berry is not a good option because Heatran already cant do anything to Dugtrio as it can even get OHKOed by eq and it doesnt pay off to put an item just because of dugtrio. Shed Shell helps you avoid Magnezone and Dugtrio plus get a nice switch in and take the momentum.

You have heatran vs genesect. They U-turn out into dugtrio as you use lava plume, bringing them down to their sash. Now, they think that they can OHKO you with earthquake, but you live with Shuca berry and lava plume for the KO. I though that's what most of the discussion about heatran assumed this situation. Also, Heatran can just Lava Plume or Earth Power magnezone, it doesn't need to run from it.

 

[tehy]

True; but:

A:You just took heavy damage and have no recovery. Genesect can still own you now.

B: That's only in that situation in any case;they might uturn to something else, like victini, and do it later. After all, lava plume has a 30% chance of killing dugtrio via lava plume.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Firstly:All politoeds mind being burned. Easiest way to win the weather war is to burn politoed;defensive ones can't heal and offensive ones drop like a stone. Secondly, how are other versions better against rain? Mostly all they do is lava plume stuff. Maybe they SR, but i already have sr. Maybe they toxic, but eh.

Secondly:Of course you don't care that balloontran can't heal. But I do, because i have an effing stall team. So i can't exactly go that route,meaning shed shell is the better option. Also, i care that it can be popped, because on a stall team, it WILL be popped.

As for scarf keldeo, even on a rain team, meh. It's pretty good there i guess, but i prefer it to attack and to make something else your scarfer.

To the above;also wobbuffett, gothitelle, and... mean look murkrow, not that anyone really uses it any more.

What I mean with "politoed doesn't mind burns" is that outside of the damage that it takes, Politoed is not a physical attacker, and is not going to have it's attacks halved in power by burn. Especially if you have Aromatherapy/Heal Bell/Wish suport from things like Chansey, at least I have. Poisoning Politoed is much more effective if you want to win weather wars this way, as Politoed dies faster.

Also, Keldeo is good as a Scarfer. I still use him with Choice Specs, however, as Thundurus-T is much more effective as a revenge killer, and under rain, Keldeo is more effective as a wallbreaker. Choice Scarf Keldeo only has the surprise value, that you can only have under rain (as the boost from Rain is equivalent to Choice Specs).

 

[tehy]

But that doesn't matter even a little. Toxic poisoning is nicer, i'll admit, but lava plume still kills him pretty fast. Against a half decent team, politoed shouldn't be staying in two turns anyhow, so burn>Toxic. If you have heal bell all bets are off, but in that case you have CHANSEY IN RAIN so heatran is useless no matter effing what.

 

[EonX]

Burn has a much better effect on Choice Politoed as it will rarely stay in for more than a turn. Defensive ones will typically switch into a neutral or resisted attack, throw a Scald or status move and then want to Protect to stall for poison/burn damage, gain Lefties recovery and scout possible Choice users. (all amounts to 3 turns) Even for defensive sets, burn will work just fine on average since it will always out-damage Leftovers from turn 1 of entry. It pretty much forces Politoed to take 18% minimum from switching in (factoring in SR, Lefties, and burn damage) and 24% for Choiced sets not to mention any other damage from Spikes or resisted hits.

 

[chimpact]

Burn is great because its naturally going to limit the amount of times a Politoed can switch in and the amount of moves it will be able to use. Only Rest and Refresh versions won't mind it, but it still forces them to go for a Refresh or Rest, which is predictable and you can take advantage of it.