Well, two things that Haxorus has over Garchomp is it's ability to hit things like Rotom-W, Bronzong and Gengar with Earthquake, and acess to Dragon Dance. Isn't that sufficient to separate him from Garchomp? I wouldn't be surprised to see other sets deemed outclassed by Garchomp unless you really wants to hit the aforementioned threats with Earthquake.
I'd say he will mostly outclass Haxorus as a Swords Dancer, though Haxorus still has his niche as the most powerful Dragon Dancer outside Ubers.
I actually noticed this as well both in playing battles and observing... Its rather odd that people are sticking at the moment to mostly using Dragon Claw over Outrage, especially in Sub SD sets. The thing is its not as if people don't use Outrage on the other dragons but why is there such hesitation on using it with Chomp? I mean Outrage was pretty much his bread and butter set in OU during his initial stint, since it landed more kills than Dragon Claw would with the same boost. Its certainly underplaying Chomp if you're not using Outrage, it may not be coming from a 147 atk but keep in mind it is coming from a +2 Atk boost from a very respectable 130 Atk and having 102 base speed means its immediately faster than many mons. Its also somewhat underplaying his 102 base speed just because he doesn't have Dragon dance given that the general dancers would actually need 2 dances to safely avoid the common scarf users in the first place.
Actually, i'd say that SD Haxorus is a better stallbreaker than SD Garchomp. It needs rain support, but after a Swords Dance its pretty much OHKOing everything on stall barring Skarmory, who is by +2 Aqua Tail (60.77 - 71.55%). I usually use Lum Berry on SD Haxorus, but I might consider using Mystic Water to boost its Aqua Tail in & out of rain.
Pretty much my feelings exactly. Chomp has plenty of checks in this metagame. Tornadus-T easily outspeeds Chomp (provided it's not scarfed) and can smash it with HP Ice (provided he's not holding a Yache Berry). Landorus-T with his Intimidate can easily come in on Chomp and take a few Outrages. Outrage is a 3HKO on the standard Defensive Gliscor and a 4HKO on Hippowdon whom in return 2HKOs it with Ice Fang and can Slack Off any damage Garchomp dealt to it. Skarmory and Bronzong are either immune to or resist both of its STABs (the former of the two having reliable recovery & Whirlwind to phaze the SD set out). Earthquake is a 4HKO on Standard Ferrothorn. If Keldeo can snipe Scarfed Garchomp with Icy Wind and has a 62.5% chance of OHKOing it with Hydro Pump outside of the rain (provided it's Specs) and can also live 1 hit from Chomp whether it be EQ or Outrage. Mamoswine, Weavile (whom I rarely even see in OU), and Cloyster each have priority Ice Shard. Cloyster is also 2 or 3HKO'd by Outrage due to his Base 180 defense and can also Smash then retaliate with Icicle Spear. If Garchomp isn't Scarfed, then the Lati twins along with Scarfed dragons like Hydreigon, Salamence, and Haxorus can smash it with their Dragon STABs. Max HP Max Defense Bold Slowbro is at best 2HKO'd by a Banded Garchomp's Outrage (factoring in min-max damage if Chomp is not Adamant) and can recover Chomp's blows with Slack Off or Regenerator and also has a 25% chance of OHKOing back with Ice Beam (non-Yache variants anyways). Other bulky waters like Vaporeon, Suicune. and Milotic are 3HKO'd by a non-boosted Outrage if they're Max HP & Defense and also ruin Chomp's day with Ice Beam (Vaporeon and Milotic both have forms of recovery in Wish and Recover respectively). Scarfed Infernape also has a 31.25% chance to OHKO Non-Yache Garchomp (but it of course can't switch into anything). And we all know that a physical threat like Garchomp sure as hell can NOT tolerate a burn.
I agree with this following statement entirely. Sand Veil is a very situational ability in of itself, and that's not why Garchomp was banned. Not even close to the reason when it has OutQuake for STAB, Stone Edge for primary coverage, a Yache Berry to laugh at Ice-type attacks, and all the necessary things to make the rest of the tier bow before it. It overcentralized a metagame just by being Garchomp, and unbanning it would cause problems.
Versatile? Choice Scarf, Choice Band, Swords Dance, and possibly a bulky set because of Rough Skin. He can only use physical moves since his SpA is kinda low. The only versatile part of Chomp is that he runs Yache Berry sometimes. Overall, he is not a versatile pokemon at all.
Hence the just. He can't run too many move sets, but just enough for a minor guessing game. It will kinda hurt if you guess wrong, but not as bad if you guessed, say, that breloom was a sub puncher when actually he was a Techniloom.
Yeah, that's the important thing to keep in mind. With Sand Veil up, a 100% accurate move only has a 32.8% chance of breaking five Substitutes in a row, meaning that outside of a few rare methods to circumvent it, the odds were in favor of Garchomp gaining the free turn it needed to smash through most reasonable countermeasures. So it's not just that there was a chance that things might go wrong, but that the most likely way for them to go made Garchomp too difficult to reasonably stop.
This is correct. I looked back over the nomination thread from back then because I thought I remembered it differently, but almost every Garchomp nomination mentioned Sand Veil as what put it over the edge.
It's the same thing I was trying to say before I got silenced for the second time. We are looking at that 20% chance of not attacking as a game-breaking hax, but this is ridicolous when you have a monster like Jirachi (hey, Steel type, 600 BST like Chomp, way MORE versatile than chomp) that sits there and flinches you to death after.
Do you see how this is pretty much entirely false or irrelevant to the actual argument?
