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Ask a Simple Question; Get a Simple Answer & General Resources (OU Edition)
- Thread starter Matthew
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http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/breloom
http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/landorus
As you can see, both with neutral natures, a max Spd Breloom outspeeds a min Spd Landorus by a single point, a Pokemon with 31 more base Spd.
http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/tornadus
If Breloom takes a +Spd nature, it can even outspeed a min Spd Tornadus, at 41 more base Spd than Breloom.
Now, you're not likely to run into Pokemon with that much base Spd being used without investing in it. But yes, the difference between investing and not investing is that large.
it's easy to check specific speed benchmarks with almost any stat calculator so i'm not sure if you're looking for an answer that's so specific. for the sake of completeness, you need precisely 114 base speed, with 0 investment and a neutral nature, to outrun a base 70, 252+ pokemon. but the significance of EVs is an interesting topic.
without a doubt speed is the most powerful out of all the stats when it comes to EV investment. like it or not, speed is the only stat where one point can make all the difference. that's why speed creep is so powerful. it's often almost completely inconsequential to sacrifice one point of any other stat, but if you drop that point in speed and come up against a "standard" set running an unenhanced speed investment, suddenly you outspeed and an entire new world of possibilities opens up. without a doubt, speed is the stat that appreciates investment the most.
as for the other stats though, EV investment is usually mostly for assuring chances. it becomes magnified if the attack in question is super effective or if you use a boosting nature. investing enough EVs in attack stats can change 50% chance to ohko to a 100% chance and indeed sometimes the game swings on those tiny little things. however the significance of small investments in defenses or attack is generally minimal in a vacuum. the impact adds up over the course of a game, undoubtedly, but this is why throwing a small random amount of EVs in attack is pointless for a defensive pokemon, or vice versa. it doesn't really accomplish much in the specific scenarios where you expect said pokemon to perform.
it's also important to remember that the EV system rewards concentrated investment. especially when multiplicative factors like nature or typing are taken into account. spreading your EVs across several stats, even if all those stats are important, can often detract from a mon's general usefulness. i used to run a blissey spread of 252 def / 44 satk / 92 spd / 120+ sdef. yeah. the 44 satk and 92 speed assured me to outspeed any 8 speed scizor and guaranteed an ohko on 248/8 scizor with fire blast. in exchange for this extremely specific scenario, blissey loses quite a bit of special bulk. when you have to switch it into rain backed politoed hydro pumps multiple times, that disadvantage is really gonna add up. another example from one of my old teams was mix support tyranitar with 252 hp / 76 atk / 60 satk / 120+ defense (relaxed). this assures a 2hko on uninvested latios with undoubled pursuit and assures an ohko on 252/0 gliscor with ice beam, but tyranitar's bulk loses out massively, especially its special bulk which i chose not to invest in for that set (but it could take a scarf Landorus-I's hammer arm!). all those specific investments cut down on the overall long-term utility of the mon, which in both cases was being able to switch in and tank repeatedly. in exchange you get very specific advantages upon which you have to gamble quite a bit of EV investment so you have to decide if those things are really as important as they seem.
anyway your question was a bit open ended so i hope this helps?
without a doubt speed is the most powerful out of all the stats when it comes to EV investment. like it or not, speed is the only stat where one point can make all the difference. that's why speed creep is so powerful. it's often almost completely inconsequential to sacrifice one point of any other stat, but if you drop that point in speed and come up against a "standard" set running an unenhanced speed investment, suddenly you outspeed and an entire new world of possibilities opens up. without a doubt, speed is the stat that appreciates investment the most.
as for the other stats though, EV investment is usually mostly for assuring chances. it becomes magnified if the attack in question is super effective or if you use a boosting nature. investing enough EVs in attack stats can change 50% chance to ohko to a 100% chance and indeed sometimes the game swings on those tiny little things. however the significance of small investments in defenses or attack is generally minimal in a vacuum. the impact adds up over the course of a game, undoubtedly, but this is why throwing a small random amount of EVs in attack is pointless for a defensive pokemon, or vice versa. it doesn't really accomplish much in the specific scenarios where you expect said pokemon to perform.
it's also important to remember that the EV system rewards concentrated investment. especially when multiplicative factors like nature or typing are taken into account. spreading your EVs across several stats, even if all those stats are important, can often detract from a mon's general usefulness. i used to run a blissey spread of 252 def / 44 satk / 92 spd / 120+ sdef. yeah. the 44 satk and 92 speed assured me to outspeed any 8 speed scizor and guaranteed an ohko on 248/8 scizor with fire blast. in exchange for this extremely specific scenario, blissey loses quite a bit of special bulk. when you have to switch it into rain backed politoed hydro pumps multiple times, that disadvantage is really gonna add up. another example from one of my old teams was mix support tyranitar with 252 hp / 76 atk / 60 satk / 120+ defense (relaxed). this assures a 2hko on uninvested latios with undoubled pursuit and assures an ohko on 252/0 gliscor with ice beam, but tyranitar's bulk loses out massively, especially its special bulk which i chose not to invest in for that set (but it could take a scarf Landorus-I's hammer arm!). all those specific investments cut down on the overall long-term utility of the mon, which in both cases was being able to switch in and tank repeatedly. in exchange you get very specific advantages upon which you have to gamble quite a bit of EV investment so you have to decide if those things are really as important as they seem.
anyway your question was a bit open ended so i hope this helps?
Yeah investment can be huge, check our your Breloom example, without speed, you miss out on all this:
For future reference use this: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3452191 to find specific speed bench marker you want to find.
Investment in attack can also make a huge difference, something like 15-20% more damage I think, but that is more self explanatory.
262 / Politoed, Breloom / 70 / +Spe / 252 / 0
261 / Gyarados / 81 / Neutral / 252 / 0
259 / Venusaur*, Mamoswine, Dragonite / 80 / Neutral / 252 / 0
256 / Latias* / Neutral / 0 / 0
253 / Heatran / 77 / Neutral / 252 / 0
251 / Scizor / 65 / +Spe / 252 / 0
250 / Cloyster, Metagross / 70 / +Spe / 208 / 0
249 / Togekiss, Dragonite / 80 / Neutral / 212 / 0
247 / Kingdra / 85 / Neutral / 164 / 0
245 / Togekiss, Dragonite / 80 / Neutral / 196 / 0
245 / Heatran / 77 / Neutral / 220 / 0
244 / Celebi*, Zapdos / 100 / Neutral / 32 / 0
244 / Gliscor / 95 / Neutral / 72 / 0
244 / Rotom-A / 86 / Neutral / 144 / 0
244 / Gyarados / 81 / Neutral / 184 / 0
244 / Jirachi / 100 / Neutral / 32 / 0
243 / Tyranitar / 61 / +Spe / 252 / 0
240 / Tentacruel / 100 / Neutral / 16 / 0
239 / Politoed, Breloom / 70 / Neutral / 252 / 0
237 / Breloom / 70 / Neutral / 244 / 0
236 / Scrafty / 58 / +Spe / 252 / 0
232 / Magnezone / 60 / +Spe / 220 / 0
230 / Heatran / 77 / Neutral / 160 / 0
229 / Scizor / 65 / Neutral / 252 / 0
226 / Xatu / 95 / Neutral / 0 / 0
223 / Gorebyss, Huntail / 52 / +Spe / 252 / 0
216 / Roserade* / 90 / Neutral / 0 / 0
206 / Suicune, Toxicroak / 85 / Neutral / 0 / 0
199 / Tangrowth / 50 / Neutral / 252 / 0
198 / Gorebyss, Huntail / 52 / Neutral / 232 / 0
198 / Gyarados, Milotic / 81 / Neutral / 0 / 0
198 / Vaporeon / 65 / Neutral / 128 / 0
196 / Venusaur*, Togekiss, Dragonite / 80 / Neutral / 0 / 0
190 / Heatran / 77 / Neutral / 0 / 0
182 / Skarmory, Breloom, Metagross, Hitmontop / 70 / Neutral / 24 / 0
178 / Machamp / 55 / Neutral / 128 / 0
177 / Vaporeon / 65 / Neutral / 44 / 0
176 / Cloyster, Metagross, Hitmontop / 70 / Neu / 0 / 0
261 / Gyarados / 81 / Neutral / 252 / 0
259 / Venusaur*, Mamoswine, Dragonite / 80 / Neutral / 252 / 0
256 / Latias* / Neutral / 0 / 0
253 / Heatran / 77 / Neutral / 252 / 0
251 / Scizor / 65 / +Spe / 252 / 0
250 / Cloyster, Metagross / 70 / +Spe / 208 / 0
249 / Togekiss, Dragonite / 80 / Neutral / 212 / 0
247 / Kingdra / 85 / Neutral / 164 / 0
245 / Togekiss, Dragonite / 80 / Neutral / 196 / 0
245 / Heatran / 77 / Neutral / 220 / 0
244 / Celebi*, Zapdos / 100 / Neutral / 32 / 0
244 / Gliscor / 95 / Neutral / 72 / 0
244 / Rotom-A / 86 / Neutral / 144 / 0
244 / Gyarados / 81 / Neutral / 184 / 0
244 / Jirachi / 100 / Neutral / 32 / 0
243 / Tyranitar / 61 / +Spe / 252 / 0
240 / Tentacruel / 100 / Neutral / 16 / 0
239 / Politoed, Breloom / 70 / Neutral / 252 / 0
237 / Breloom / 70 / Neutral / 244 / 0
236 / Scrafty / 58 / +Spe / 252 / 0
232 / Magnezone / 60 / +Spe / 220 / 0
230 / Heatran / 77 / Neutral / 160 / 0
229 / Scizor / 65 / Neutral / 252 / 0
226 / Xatu / 95 / Neutral / 0 / 0
223 / Gorebyss, Huntail / 52 / +Spe / 252 / 0
216 / Roserade* / 90 / Neutral / 0 / 0
206 / Suicune, Toxicroak / 85 / Neutral / 0 / 0
199 / Tangrowth / 50 / Neutral / 252 / 0
198 / Gorebyss, Huntail / 52 / Neutral / 232 / 0
198 / Gyarados, Milotic / 81 / Neutral / 0 / 0
198 / Vaporeon / 65 / Neutral / 128 / 0
196 / Venusaur*, Togekiss, Dragonite / 80 / Neutral / 0 / 0
190 / Heatran / 77 / Neutral / 0 / 0
182 / Skarmory, Breloom, Metagross, Hitmontop / 70 / Neutral / 24 / 0
178 / Machamp / 55 / Neutral / 128 / 0
177 / Vaporeon / 65 / Neutral / 44 / 0
176 / Cloyster, Metagross, Hitmontop / 70 / Neu / 0 / 0
For future reference use this: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3452191 to find specific speed bench marker you want to find.
Investment in attack can also make a huge difference, something like 15-20% more damage I think, but that is more self explanatory.
Edit Post ----> Go Advanced --------> should be able to change the title of the thread (if you are the OP).
What traits qualify a Pokemon as either a defensive or offensive pivot? In order words, what is a pivot in Pokemon?
I already have a general idea based on the contexts I have seen the term used in but would appreciate a more precise definition to go off of in the future.
I already have a general idea based on the contexts I have seen the term used in but would appreciate a more precise definition to go off of in the future.
wow that question is really tough to answer lol. just look at SDS's landorus-T analysis where the argument about it went on for like a page and a half. maybe this deserves its own thread. anyway here is my take:
in general, pivoting is the act of switching in a mon for the intent of forcing your opponent out, and then bringing in another mon of your own shortly afterwards rather than staying in/setting up. ideally the pivot will force the opponent into a situation where the mons that would be good against your "end target mon" are bad against the pivot, so they get forced out before they can come in on the mon you really want to get in on the other end. of course you can extend the idea of the "target mon" to be yet another pivot that will then force new switches into other guys on your team, and just pivot through everything in this way. that's probably the start of things like volt-turn lol.
if we go further than the verb, then the noun pivot would refer to a mon whose primary purpose on a team is to generate momentum by performing switches in this way. either by slipping in attacks in between when the opponent makes the wrong moves, or by setting up residual damage that punishes the opponent for not getting the chance to slip in attacks, a pivot hopes to make the opponent waste time on switches, draining their momentum and causing them to lose the game.
anyway a defensive pivot, in my opinion, is one that forces the opponent out because they can't hurt it quickly enough to not lose offensive momentum (eg doing enough damage quickly enough that the other team cannot recover, set up defenses, or stall). the only way for them to maintain their team's attack pressure is by switching to another attacker, because the pivot you've brought in is just too bulky. it's tougher and tougher to truly wall or hard counter mons in the offensive meta we have today, so i think my definition might sound logical but doesn't hold up in practice - i would consider a lot of mons defensive pivots that can't outright wall the things they force switches against.
an offensive pivot on the other hand is a mon that forces out its opponent because the opponent's mon is not bulky enough to stay in against the pivot you've brought in. the opponent cannot maintain defensive momentum against the mon (ie it cannot survive long enough to continue recovering, walling or setting up) so they are forced out by the power of the mon you've brought in.
anyway that's my take on it, food for thought i hope. momentum is in and of itself a tough concept to define, yknow? perhaps we should go look at the material from the creation of tomohawk in the cap forum. tomohawk's concept was "a mon that manipulates momentum" (paraphrasing) so i'm sure they had some cool discussions on what this stuff all means.
in general, pivoting is the act of switching in a mon for the intent of forcing your opponent out, and then bringing in another mon of your own shortly afterwards rather than staying in/setting up. ideally the pivot will force the opponent into a situation where the mons that would be good against your "end target mon" are bad against the pivot, so they get forced out before they can come in on the mon you really want to get in on the other end. of course you can extend the idea of the "target mon" to be yet another pivot that will then force new switches into other guys on your team, and just pivot through everything in this way. that's probably the start of things like volt-turn lol.
if we go further than the verb, then the noun pivot would refer to a mon whose primary purpose on a team is to generate momentum by performing switches in this way. either by slipping in attacks in between when the opponent makes the wrong moves, or by setting up residual damage that punishes the opponent for not getting the chance to slip in attacks, a pivot hopes to make the opponent waste time on switches, draining their momentum and causing them to lose the game.
anyway a defensive pivot, in my opinion, is one that forces the opponent out because they can't hurt it quickly enough to not lose offensive momentum (eg doing enough damage quickly enough that the other team cannot recover, set up defenses, or stall). the only way for them to maintain their team's attack pressure is by switching to another attacker, because the pivot you've brought in is just too bulky. it's tougher and tougher to truly wall or hard counter mons in the offensive meta we have today, so i think my definition might sound logical but doesn't hold up in practice - i would consider a lot of mons defensive pivots that can't outright wall the things they force switches against.
an offensive pivot on the other hand is a mon that forces out its opponent because the opponent's mon is not bulky enough to stay in against the pivot you've brought in. the opponent cannot maintain defensive momentum against the mon (ie it cannot survive long enough to continue recovering, walling or setting up) so they are forced out by the power of the mon you've brought in.
anyway that's my take on it, food for thought i hope. momentum is in and of itself a tough concept to define, yknow? perhaps we should go look at the material from the creation of tomohawk in the cap forum. tomohawk's concept was "a mon that manipulates momentum" (paraphrasing) so i'm sure they had some cool discussions on what this stuff all means.
Ok, so i'm using Substitute Tornadus-T (which is a complete monster) but i am in a huge doubt about what coverage move to put in the last slot. He currently has Hurricane / Superpower / Hidden Power [Ice], but i miss Grass Knot sometimes, mostly for Gastrodon.
What move should i use in the fourth slot?
What move should i use in the fourth slot?
Its going to come down to team preference. LO Hurricane has a good chance to 2KO Gastrodon with 1 layer of spikes, so technically, you can beat it, but if your team has problems with Gastrodon, then GK would be a good idea.
Its tricky for me to make an informed suggestion, due to not knowing your team, but basically, if you can handle Dragonite, (HP Ice has a pretty limited use, since Hurricane hits many dragons pretty hard) and have problems with Gastrodon, then run GK, if the reverse is true, then go with GK. If you have problems with both, pick whatever move you would find yourself using the most, and maybe consider a minor team change if both pokemon are troublesome
Hope I helped.
Its tricky for me to make an informed suggestion, due to not knowing your team, but basically, if you can handle Dragonite, (HP Ice has a pretty limited use, since Hurricane hits many dragons pretty hard) and have problems with Gastrodon, then run GK, if the reverse is true, then go with GK. If you have problems with both, pick whatever move you would find yourself using the most, and maybe consider a minor team change if both pokemon are troublesome
Hope I helped.
Strangely enough, Tornadus does not actually get Roost.
I went to the pokemon website and I foun this: http://www.pokemonblackwhite.com/po...2/#en-us/story/keldeo/details-keldeo-extended
Keldeo will return to its Ordinary Form if it ever forgets Secret Sword, so be careful when it levels up and learns new moves. If you make Keldeo forget the move by accident, you can return to the carved stone near Floccesy Town, and it will remember Secret Sword again. Also, if Keldeo is in Resolute Form, it cannot be transferred back to Pokémon Black Version or Pokémon White Version. If you want to send Keldeo back, you’ll need to make it forget Secret Sword so it returns to its Ordinary Form.
So.....why is it that I see Keldeo with Secret Sword on the ladder when its not in its resolution forme? Isnt that illegal? This means it is impossible to have Keldeo with Secret Sword in its normal form. Right?
Keldeo will return to its Ordinary Form if it ever forgets Secret Sword, so be careful when it levels up and learns new moves. If you make Keldeo forget the move by accident, you can return to the carved stone near Floccesy Town, and it will remember Secret Sword again. Also, if Keldeo is in Resolute Form, it cannot be transferred back to Pokémon Black Version or Pokémon White Version. If you want to send Keldeo back, you’ll need to make it forget Secret Sword so it returns to its Ordinary Form.
So.....why is it that I see Keldeo with Secret Sword on the ladder when its not in its resolution forme? Isnt that illegal? This means it is impossible to have Keldeo with Secret Sword in its normal form. Right?
Keldeo can learn Secret Sword in BW1, and I'm not sure what happens if you trade a Keldeo that knows it to BW2. It doesn't matter though, because the form difference is entirely cosmetic.
How do rain teams usually deal with steel types aside from fire attacks? Especially ones like Ferrothorn, Genesect , Forry, Scizor; since fire moves are drastically reduced in power under rain, and the bug/steel types have no other weakness -although they do still take major damage from fire.
Thanks!
Thanks!
Generally the double-boosted water attacks do the trick pretty well. Obviously this is not the case for Ferrothorn, however he hates being burnt so scald is still quite useful there. Otherwise it is a good idea to pack some strong, stab Fighting and Flying attacks which can break these pokemon despite their lack of weaknesses. My current team is actually a rain team with only one water type attack throughout all 6 members... Scald on Politoed. The only Steel types it can't threaten somewhat off the bat is Jirachi and, ironically, Heatran.
Well, except for the form giving away if it knows Secret Sword, right? I think that was his problem.
If you're having trouble with defensive Steels, there are a couple ways you can go about it. Generally, these Steels have trouble against the prime Rain abusers such as Keldeo, Thundurus-T and Tornadus-T, while even offensive Politoed is troublesome.
- Keldeo who can run a couple different sets has no trouble against Steel types, with 4 SDef EVs, you can ensure Genesect doesn't get the Special Attack boost upon switching in, allowing you to avoid the OHKO from Thunderbolt. Keldeo outspeeds Expert Belt / Choice Band / Choice Specs sets and can remove them easily. The Steels you mentione cannot switch into Keldeo either, choice locked Scizor and Forretress are used as setup bait, while Ferrothorn is 2HKO'd upon switching in on Secret Sword.
- Thundurus-T is also pretty threatening for these Steels, especially with the STAB Thunder in Rain and base 145 Special Attack. All of the Steels you mentioned are 2HKO'd, while Thundurus handily resists Scizor's dual STAB and is immune to Genesect's Thunderbolt. For everything that Thunder doesn't hit hard, Focus Blast hits harder, ensuring Ferrothorn and other fighting weak Steels cannot beat Thundurus-T one on one. Just like Keldeo, Thundurus-T can use Forretress as setup fodder when running an Agility / Nasty Plot set, while also being immune to Volt Switch.
- Tornadus-T is also pretty threatening to Steels, with the nice bulk it can live priority from Scizor, and heal it off with Regenerator. It hits every Steel bar Jirachi hard, who Tornadus-T can U-Turn on the obvious Jirachi switch into something to beat Jirachi. The main perk here is the STAB 100% accurate Hurricane, which Jirachi is the only common Steel type who can switch in. Scizor and Forretress are 2HKO'd upon switch in, while Ferrothorn is 2HKO'd with prior Spikes damage. Genesect cannot OHKO Tornadus-T either without a Special Attack boost, and Tornadus-T naturally outspeeds Genesect.
- Finally, Offensive Politoed is a very big problem for Steels, the Choice Specs set in particular is especially hard for Steels to switch into, given the massive damage output with Specs, STAB and Drizzle. The only resist of the Steels you mentioned was Ferrothorn, who is still 2HKO'd by Focus Blast while being easily outsped. Scizor and Forretress are OHKO'd while Specially Defensive Jirachi is 2HKO'd. Genesect may be able to revenge kill but it cannot safely switch in, which is the beauty of Politoed. Scarf Politoed on the other hand is also pretty frightening. While the damage output is considerably less, you gain the ability to beat Sub Calm Mind Jirachi with Perish Song forcing it out, while also outspeeding non Choice Scarf Genesect, and revenging it with prior damage. Ferrothorn gives you much more problems with this set, but the extra speed may be a worthwhile trade.
These are just the offensive options to help with the 'mons you mentioned. There are also a couple defensive threats who can deal with the aforementioned Steels. Gliscor, Stallbreaker Mew and Taunt Jellicent are also effective options to deal with these, being able to wall the hits or shut them down and cripple them, essentially rendering everyone of these useless.
alright time for ME to ask a question
i planned to actually ladder in celebration of my potato and get more serious about pokemon, seeing as normally all i do is theorize and that really limits how you can contribute to smogon. at lavos's recommendation i am also considering chasing a badge. however university has like just started for me (actual university, not smogon university) and my schedule is about to be loaded full. i'm not ready to just walk away from smogon for 8 months, nor am i ready to battle more than 1-2 times a day but i know that as a result of that, my laddering will probably be of limited use. i don't want to spend too much time proving the obvious to myself if it's avoidable.
so how should we go about asking for short advice on our teams? ladder for like 2 hours, then post a lineup of six, and get one-line suggestions about it? i'm basically looking for a heavily diluted version of an RMT: i understand that i've invested less time in playing the team, and so i don't expect or deserve for people to invest very much time in looking at it. however people are dumb and sometimes we miss obvious issues or solutions, i'm no exception so i could use some quick advice. rather than a full rate, simple comments like "team looks weak to tornadus-T, can't take hurricane spams" or "celebi would be a good fit for you" are all i'm looking for. is this thread an appropriate place to ask these kinds of questions?
EDIT: oh and if the response to this post is "just go ladder more", i am actually okay with that. just curious to know if there are any resources i can draw on in this way.
i planned to actually ladder in celebration of my potato and get more serious about pokemon, seeing as normally all i do is theorize and that really limits how you can contribute to smogon. at lavos's recommendation i am also considering chasing a badge. however university has like just started for me (actual university, not smogon university) and my schedule is about to be loaded full. i'm not ready to just walk away from smogon for 8 months, nor am i ready to battle more than 1-2 times a day but i know that as a result of that, my laddering will probably be of limited use. i don't want to spend too much time proving the obvious to myself if it's avoidable.
so how should we go about asking for short advice on our teams? ladder for like 2 hours, then post a lineup of six, and get one-line suggestions about it? i'm basically looking for a heavily diluted version of an RMT: i understand that i've invested less time in playing the team, and so i don't expect or deserve for people to invest very much time in looking at it. however people are dumb and sometimes we miss obvious issues or solutions, i'm no exception so i could use some quick advice. rather than a full rate, simple comments like "team looks weak to tornadus-T, can't take hurricane spams" or "celebi would be a good fit for you" are all i'm looking for. is this thread an appropriate place to ask these kinds of questions?
EDIT: oh and if the response to this post is "just go ladder more", i am actually okay with that. just curious to know if there are any resources i can draw on in this way.
In general, people have been asking these kinds of questions sometimes, and it's gone over well, but I'm not sure about doing it "constantly", if you know what I mean? Then again, it is SQSA, and this is where a lot of pointless things get directed...It's not exactly a high priority stick-by-the-rules kind of thread. There's not that many rules to begin with, really. It seems like it would be alright, but I'm no expert on the subject.
On a side note, what are you majoring in?
On a side note, what are you majoring in?
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