Garchomp and Sand Veil Discussion

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chimpact

fire nation
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Hydreigon is not as common anymore partially because Breloom got technician in BW2. It was a lot more prominent in BW1 because it wasn't pursuit weak and could handle TTar somewhat. Latios is getting a lot more usage in BW2 compared to it because it can run the Scarf set to clean games, resists breloom's mach punch, and is a solid check to rain threats.

Hydreigon is only 4 points below in Speed and is basically Garchomp as a special attacker instead of primarily physical. He is an outstanding Scarfer, and with his large move pool consisting of powerful SpA moves like Fire Blast, Focus Blast, Dark Pulse, and Draco Meteor, he can revenge kill many top threats in OU.

Unlike Chomp, Hydreigon has the ability to revenge kill Mamoswine with Fire Blast unless it's banded, or if he happens to lock him into Stone Edge or Earthquake. That's another thing, Levitate. He is immune to all Ground types moves, and Spikes/Toxic Spikes. This allow him to switch into anything that tries to possibly EdgeQuake an entire team.

My point is although just ever so slightly slower, Hydreigon can be just as dangerous as Garchomp that lacks SV, and although Chomp carries a little more bulk, Hydreigon lacks a x4 weakness to Ice, an immunity to Psychic, Ground, and Spikes, more diverse move pool, and revenge kill a wider amount of threats.

Yes Garchomp has its advantages, but Hydreigon is very dangerous, which in my opinion makes it seem like Garchomp would fit just fine in OU, as the underrated Hydreigon can be just as dangerous to a team as Garchomp can.
I really don't see the comparison. The 4 points of speed is so crucial when considering what falls in between them: Genesect, Various base 100s, and Landorus-I. Being able to outspeed all of those pokemon naturally is a huge plus. And the physical / special niches of the respected pokemon cannot just be simply ignored. You won't see Hydreigon's go for crunches or garchomp (for the most part) go for drago meteors. They have different switch-ins. You won't see a skarmory coming in on Hydreigon or a Blissey coming in on Garchomp. Hydreigon is a threat, but he is nowhere near the level of Garchomp.

The more and more I see Garchomp, the more I think it's capable of dropping down to OU. The BW2 metagame is so much more offensive and with a variety of pokemon that naturally outspeed garchomp, and all the priority users, it's really not the threat that it used to be. The Scarf set is the most common and locking yourself into EQ or a weak fire blast/dclaw is just going to allow your opponent to set up on you.
 
Garchomp is actually not that fast anymore with things like Keldeo, Terrakion, and Tornadus-T running around. And I think that Chomp has been ruled to be not broken(I'd like someone else to back me up on that, however). This discussion is pretty much weather or not SS+SV should be the Sand Veil ban now.
 

Lavos

Banned deucer.
Garchomp is actually not that fast anymore with things like Keldeo, Terrakion, and Tornadus-T running around. And I think that Chomp has been ruled to be not broken(I'd like someone else to back me up on that, however). This discussion is pretty much weather or not SS+SV should be the Sand Veil ban now.
I'll back you up on the Garchomp-is-not-broken claim, but I sincerely hope that this discussion hasn't turned to whether or not Sand Veil Chomp is broken. Despite Chomp not being broken in the current metagame conditions with Rough Skin, it's still a top-tier OU Pokemon due to a great movepool, dual STAB, excellent Attack, troll Speed, usable bulk, and desirable typing. Gliscor doesn't have half the offensive benefits of Garchomp, and many still deem it broken with Sand Veil. Imagine a stronger, faster, more diverse Sand Veil Gliscor running around the metagame. It would be chaotic. Chomp was a pain even back in the BW1 era, when teams were more defensive than they are now. Imagine it in the current, heavily offensively oriented metagame, where teams don't commonly pack Skarmory or Bronzong anymore. Garchomp would essentially have free reign. With a Yache Berry and Sand Veil at +2, not only would it be incredibly difficult to take a hit from, it'd also be tough to take down. BW2 doesn't need another broken sweeper added to its resume. Let's leave Sand Veil Chomp alone - it should be grateful we're even considering unbanning it with Rough Skin.
 

Enguarde

I only play ADV UU
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Been said god knows how many times but its true. Chomp is fine in OU without sand veil. I remember many situations where it should have died but it a dragon pulse or and ice beam/shard manages to miss resulting in a free sub or swords.
 
Garchomp is actually not that fast anymore with things like Keldeo, Terrakion, and Tornadus-T running around. And I think that Chomp has been ruled to be not broken(I'd like someone else to back me up on that, however). This discussion is pretty much weather or not SS+SV should be the Sand Veil ban now.
I second this statemant. Garchomp without Sand Veil is completely fine. Don't get me wrong, it is still a big threat. There are more ways to play around it though. I am in HUGE favor of the Sand Stream+Sand Veil ban as well. That way Garchomp can punish sand teams just like how Kingdra and other Swift Swimmers punish rain teams.
 
I would like to say that Chomp is not all that broken. I've been doing some dammage calcs over the last few days and Landerous-T accually make a great check to Chomp.

Outrage from a scarf-chomp (Jolly-252atk/252spd) after intimidate from a bulkie Land-T(Impish-252HP/252Def) does 26.7~31.41% (4 to 5 HKO)

If it where Adamant-43.46~51.31% (3HKO)

SD-Chomp-(Adamant-252atk/ 252Spd) after +1 does-84.82~99.97% (2HKO)

SD-Chomp-(Jolly- 252atk/ 252spd) after+1 does 77.23~91.1% (2HKO)

at a bare minimum to take one Outrage from a +1 Adamant Chomp it would need 252HP and 164Def and that assuming ur running a def+ nature. Land-T makes a great check to Chomp, but unfortunately, w/ no attack or Sp.Attack investment, a Land-T's Outrage or HP-Ice will be a 2HKO on chomp :/.

Also been doing other Calcs, assuming u bring in a Mamoswine on a Scarf-chomp:
Scarf-Chomp- (Adamant 252atk/ 252speed) Outrage to a Mamoswine (Adamant 252Atk/ 252speed) it can live with about 15~20% HP and fire off a Life Orb-ed Ice Shard and OHKO a scarf-chomp. What 've noticed with my calcs is that SD-Chomp is the one who really causes problems. I can OHKO or 2HKO almost any kind of physically bulkie wall w/ outrage (this doen't include Skarm or Zong)
 
I'm thinking now that Trick Room Bronzong might be a fantastic momentum grabber/revenge killer if used carefully. The offensive Trick Room user can switch in on scarf or band Outrage and set up Trick Room then proceed to smash chomp and possibly neuter switch ins with the combination of Gyro Ball, Earthquake and Hypnosis. SD Chomp can 2HKO this variant, however the bulky Trick Room variant can switch in and grab momentum still.
 
I'm thinking now that Trick Room Bronzong might be a fantastic momentum grabber/revenge killer if used carefully. The offensive Trick Room user can switch in on scarf or band Outrage and set up Trick Room then proceed to smash chomp and possibly neuter switch ins with the combination of Gyro Ball, Earthquake and Hypnosis. SD Chomp can 2HKO this variant, however the bulky Trick Room variant can switch in and grab momentum still.

I very much agree with that. Who knows, this might even make the idea of a TR team even more tempting. I know in VGC its a big thing to run maybe now it might come to singles.

Even if u ran a impish- zong Max HP max Def. Jolly scarf-chomps Outrage will only do about 20% not even. Even Fire Blast is a 3 to 4 HKO.
 

GatoDelFuego

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And why do we need to punish those teams again...?
I suppose it's not about singling out a specific team type to punish, but you should still have to run the risks associated with your weather: if you run a rain team, you may have to deal with an opponent's rain dish tentacruel or tornadus-t, if you run a sun team, you might have to be wary of an opponent's volcarona, and if you run a sand team, you'll have to take the chance of running into something with sand veil, activated by yourself.
 
Just saying there are already pokes to punish sand teams, Landerous w/ sand force being the main one, but Stoutland and even Gliscore can do a pretty good job too. Then again, almost no one will run Stoutland just for countering sand and Gliscores are just everywhere so its alway been able to do some dammage to sand teams.
 
To be honest sand veil doesn't seem at all broken, I never ever thought is was broken, even when sand was the top weather. Now with rain, and to an extent sun, dominating the metagame sand veil has lost lot of it's value. Adding to this, is the fact that the only OU user of sand veil at the moment,Gliscor, is mostly played defensively and has another, arguably Superior ability to choose from, means that sand veil isn't broken, In my opinion.

Garchomp is also, in my opinion, not broken. Terrakion seems to give it competition as either a scarfer or a swords dancer, because of terrakion's higher speed and virtually the same attack stat. I'm not saying chomp isn't good, it's amazing, but it's not broken.
 

Gary

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To be honest sand veil doesn't seem at all broken, I never ever thought is was broken, even when sand was the top weather. Now with rain, and to an extent sun, dominating the metagame sand veil has lost lot of it's value. Adding to this, is the fact that the only OU user of sand veil at the moment,Gliscor, is mostly played defensively and has another, arguably Superior ability to choose from, means that sand veil isn't broken, In my opinion.

Garchomp is also, in my opinion, not broken. Terrakion seems to give it competition as either a scarfer or a swords dancer, because of terrakion's higher speed and virtually the same attack stat. I'm not saying chomp isn't good, it's amazing, but it's not broken.
Agreed. Terrakion like Grachomp has two amazing STABs at it's disposal, and being a faster Scarfer/Dancer it would almost seem that Terrakion and Garchomp are in similar boats. However, Chomp can beat a Terrakion, since it resists almost all of it's attacks and can OHKO it with EQ, but like I said, they are both very amazing revenge killers with few threats that can efficiently check them, so Chomp deserves to be in OU just like Terrakion has been.
 

UltiMario

Out of Obscurity
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Tell me one way Chomp Resists Close Combat. Or really, any move Terrakion uses other than Stone Edge.

Irrelevant to the Point, but whatever.

I'm inclined to agree with the whole Comparison, however. Giving up speed for a decent ability and a typing trade-off (both of which have reasons to be used or not) is effectively the comparison for Terrakion or Garchomp.

I really don't know why we treat Garchomp so special. It's a Dragon that fits in the metagame like any other. There are other Dragons, and other physical sweepers that have extremely obvious advantages over Garchomp, we we don't care because of Sand Veil. Rough Skin is arguably even the better ability, especially for a sweeper that can afford to take a hit, but Smogon doesn't care.

I'm still waiting for SubSD Gliscor to still dominate the entire OU tier, like all these Sand Veil is OP people are basically implying. Just waiting.
 
I don't think anything deserves to be OU, that is not quite the correct wording, one could easily say that about any banned uber, even Darkria and Shaymin-S.

To be honest, I am very skeptical about Garchomp being in OU, I don't think the reason why it was banned was sand veil at all, just the fact that it is a monster. Never the less I am ok with Garchomp in OU simply because I feel it would balance out the difference between sand and rain more, and we already are dealing with monsters like Keldeo, Tornadus-T, and Thundurus-T.

I don't think it will last though, as some people had said earlier in this thread, everyone gets use to the "standard Garchomp" and then bam, a new variant pops up. Garchomp has a cronic history of being banned, I doubt this will be different.
 
I honestly don't see how it would be banned. I guess a revolutionary new set(TAUNTCHOMP) might spring up, but 102 isn't as fast as it used to be.

@UltiMario: SubSD Gliscor won't dominate anything, because if SV is banned, it is BANNED for everything, not just Garchomp. Also, SV isn't OP, just uncompetitive.
 

Gary

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Tell me one way Chomp Resists Close Combat. Or really, any move Terrakion uses other than Stone Edge.

Irrelevant to the Point, but whatever.

I'm inclined to agree with the whole Comparison, however. Giving up speed for a decent ability and a typing trade-off (both of which have reasons to be used or not) is effectively the comparison for Terrakion or Garchomp.

I really don't know why we treat Garchomp so special. It's a Dragon that fits in the metagame like any other. There are other Dragons, and other physical sweepers that have extremely obvious advantages over Garchomp, we we don't care because of Sand Veil. Rough Skin is arguably even the better ability, especially for a sweeper that can afford to take a hit, but Smogon doesn't care.

I'm still waiting for SubSD Gliscor to still dominate the entire OU tier, like all these Sand Veil is OP people are basically implying. Just waiting.

A Scarfed Jolly Terrakion Close Combat against a Scarfed Garchomp:

56.98%-67.32% A 2HKO

Yes, it can't switch in on it, but a free switch into it can mean disastrous for Terrakion.
 

UltiMario

Out of Obscurity
is a Pokemon Researcher
It still doesn't resist CC though lol. Relying on Chomp for a Terrakion check is also a fairly bad idea, all considering. Decent Revenge killer for it? Yeah. But a terrible check, especially considering you have a <45% Garchomp if they just sack it.
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
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It still doesn't resist CC though lol. Relying on Chomp for a Terrakion check is also a fairly bad idea, all considering. Decent Revenge killer for it? Yeah. But a terrible check, especially considering you have a <45% Garchomp if they just sack it.
Again I never said it resisted Close Combat. Terrakion usually sports this move set when scarfed:

Close Combat
Stone Edge
X-Scissor
Rock Slide/Sacred Sword

Resists 2 of its attacks, but tanks X-Scissor and Sacred Sword very well. Moral of the story is, both of them can't be relied to take each other down without getting hurt pretty bad.
 
Again I never said it resisted Close Combat. Terrakion usually sports this move set when scarfed:

Close Combat
Stone Edge
X-Scissor
Rock Slide/Sacred Sword

Resists 2 of its attacks, but tanks X-Scissor and Sacred Sword very well. Moral of the story is, both of them can't be relied to take each other down without getting hurt pretty bad.
Or, to put it a more relevant way, Garchomp resists one of Terrakion's two main moves and doesn't really mind its filler moves, while being crippled by its most powerful move.
 

alkinesthetase

<@dtc> every day with alk is a bad day
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I'm still waiting for SubSD Gliscor to still dominate the entire OU tier, like all these Sand Veil is OP people are basically implying. Just waiting.
i have said this already but it seems to need reiteration. sand veil is probably OP on garchomp, yes. sand veil is probably not OP on gliscor, yes. however, on BOTH pokemon, it is uncompetitive, because the council has declared that that crosses the threshold of acceptable luck in pokemon. it does not matter that subsd gliscor is not broken, and it does not matter that subsd gliscor is not tearing up the ladder. the set DOES exist (rare but not irrelevant), and it DOES abuse sand veil hax. that is too much.

in the context of this thread, i see broken and uncompetitive as two VERY different words. broken implies that a mon is astoundingly strong, too strong for the metagame in which it plays. it walls too hard, hits too hard, supports too well, or some combination of the two. uncompetitive, on the other hand, would imply "detracting from acceptably competitive play" - such as the boundaries of luck in a desirable metagame. subsd gliscor is not broken. but it IS uncompetitive.

that's all i had to say
 

jrp

Banned deucer.
just saying that Scarf Cloyster seems like it would be an amusing thing to play around with Garchomp running around. It beats Yache and SubSD because Icicle Spear is multihit, and it can tank outrages from ScarfChomp.

Also people that are advocating a SV+Sand Stream ban, is having an uncompetitive aspect to the game THAT important to you?

Chomp fits nicely in place with only rough skin, it's certainly not overpowered in any sense of the word in the current metagame.

Also people that are saying that Chomp fits best on sand teams have obviously never run it on a Sun team. Sun teams love Garchomp.
 

Lavos

Banned deucer.
Also people that are advocating a SV+Sand Stream ban, is having an uncompetitive aspect to the game THAT important to you?
Yes. This online version of Pokemon is not referred to as "competitive Pokemon" for nothing. I, for one, want a version of the game in which luck is minimized and achieving a win is almost always a result of raw skill and knowledge of the metagame. Sand Veil is not raw skill, it is luck. I would prefer to see it gone.
 

jrp

Banned deucer.
Yes. This online version of Pokemon is not referred to as "competitive Pokemon" for nothing. I, for one, want a version of the game in which luck is minimized and achieving a win is almost always a result of raw skill and knowledge of the metagame. Sand Veil is not raw skill, it is luck. I would prefer to see it gone.
yeah, that's my view. I was referring to the people that want a combo ban haha

the just ban sand veil idea is much better imo
 
I don't think anything deserves to be OU, that is not quite the correct wording, one could easily say that about any banned uber, even Darkria and Shaymin-S.

To be honest, I am very skeptical about Garchomp being in OU, I don't think the reason why it was banned was sand veil at all, just the fact that it is a monster. Never the less I am ok with Garchomp in OU simply because I feel it would balance out the difference between sand and rain more, and we already are dealing with monsters like Keldeo, Tornadus-T, and Thundurus-T.

I don't think it will last though, as some people had said earlier in this thread, everyone gets use to the "standard Garchomp" and then bam, a new variant pops up. Garchomp has a cronic history of being banned, I doubt this will be different.
Obviously someone did not do their homework:
Terrakion's base stats;
HP-91
Attack-129
Def-90
Sp.Attack-72
Sp.Def-90
Speed-108

Not only is if faster then chomp but its one base point off of chomps base attack power.And not only that, but Terrakion and Garchomp both are flawed in the same ways:
1) Priority Weak and
2) easily checked if something is brought in. ( if choiced )
Honestly if they're letting Terrakion run around like this then I really don't see why with chomps "monsterous" stats he's not allowed in OU play.
 
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