np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 6 - Enter Sandman

[tehy]

Yeah, but with garchomp it's "If you're not running X then you're fucked". Not fun.

Solve for X.

Editor's Note:Tehy was fired from his job after it was discovered that he used unsolvable trick questions as part of his curriculum. The above is an example of such a question. Several students experienced nervous breakdowns as a result of such questions.They are now undergoing treatment at Saint Peter's Mental Hospital, and we send our prayers and good wishes to them.

 

[PK Gaming]

So? It's a difference of one Pokemon. Gliscor may lose to Skarmory, but it's almost as effective as Garchomp at tearing up the rest of the metagame and that's what's important. It's completely absurd to dismiss Gliscor's effectiveness because it's not as good as Garchomp. Gliscor's not bad at all, and if Garchomp were to get banned again we may see some teams in the future where Gliscor can almost dominate to a similar degree. If you're going to reply with, "But Gliscor isn't Garchomp!" I'm going to pre-emptively tell you to stop right where you are.

I mean I know it's a hard concept for you to grasp since you use Skarmory on every single team, but against teams that don't rely on Skarmory, Sub SD Gliscor is fucking lethal. Yikes, sorry just a dash of wiseassery RUUUUUUINED that for you. You absolutely can't disprove this. WCOP, ST and several other tournament matches can prove that, SubSD is in fact completely ridiculous.

***
Why Sand Veil sucks
It's not so much that Sand Veil abusers create strictly winning positions, it's more that it's incredibly difficult to actually force Sand Veil users into losing positions with such a ridiculous ability. Which is why it's a dumb ability, and has got to go.

"Oh but Cacturne has Sand Veil and it isn't broken!"

Cacturne's a shitty Pokemon, but if Eo can peak a ladder with it, then somethings up. I bet he used it to get his e-peen get rock hard when you one shots an opposing Pokemon, that bastard. Anyway if the ability is going to get banned, it should be through evasion clause. I am aware that the banning of Sand Veil ends up nerfing a few Pokemon and their movepools, but is that fact alone going to stop us? Because its not fair? A site that is notorious for banning things in general? Answer me this, if no Pokemon had their movepools fucked from a sand veil ban, would you be ok with banning Sand veil? I'd be ok with sacrificing some movepools if it meant ridding ourselves of this terrible ability forever.

Whoops there I go again, rambling on about stuff that has nothing to do with the original quote.

 

[pharaohcalvin]

I have never lost to a SubSD Gliscor, ever. That being said, if Gliscor is broken with it that would only be two out the eight final stages that have it. :/ that doesn't scream broken to me. Yeah, if you guys feel Gar and Glis are broken with it, I'd say it would best to ban them not SV. But I am yet to be convince Glis to be broken.

 

[tehy]

Rewriting this after popular demand... from myself.

Firstly:Skarmory AND bronzong. They mostly play the same role, but there are slight differences.

I'll admit that i ignore certain pokemon because they don't threaten me, but the fact is that you even have that option to begin with. Garchomp is exponentially more dangerous because you cannot just pack skarm and GG. Yes, it's difficult to pack such a pokemon on an offensive team, but it's still Possible. Also, gliscor's much more predictable;if it lacks toxic orb it's always Sub/SD/earthquake/acrobatics with a flying gem and sand veil.

As for checks; rotom-w and thundurus-t are here. Rotom-w needs a lot of luck or HP ice, but HP ice isn't without merit in this metagame. Thundurus-T speed ties with gliscor, which means that gliscor can't just sub for free. (It i mostly see it scarfed, though.) Also, i'd like to nominate zapdos. It generally has the bulk to beat gliscor, outspeeds it, and it doesn't really cede that much momentum, especially since it can just volt switch. And i actually think standard starmie can take an acrobatics. Also, chomp can force out base 100s, landorus-I, and non-scarf genesect, and has a higher attack.
See, garchomp creates problems for ALL teams when sand is up, while gliscor can be beaten in a lot of different ways. Think of it as gliscor being a pistol, and garchomp being a cannon. Yes, a pistol will still kill you if it hits, but at least you can pack bulletproof armor. Now, you can make a bunch of arguments for why that's bad, but at least it is POSSIBLE. What exactly stops a rocket launcher?
Yikes, sorry just a dash of stupidity ruined for you.

TL;DR Basically, with gliscor AND garchomp you have the ability to run bulky stuff and hope for no miss. The difference is, the former can be checked much more easily, because you can just resist/be immune to both of his moves, and is much more predictable, because 99.9% of gliscor lacking toxic orb are that exact set, whereas garchomp might have a choice band or scarf. Also, gliscor can be hard-walled, whereas garchomp cannot.

 

[Pocket]

PK Gaming, SV Acro Gliscor was NOWHERE NEAR metagame-defining as Garchomp was last year. Yes, SV Acro Gliscor was powerful and a solid replacement after Garchomp left, but it's far inferior to the landshark. The power levels between the two is analogous to the power gap between Landorus and Flygon.

I also don't think you fully understand the issue with Sand Veil + Cacturne. It's not all-or-nothing deal here; a complex ban of Sandstream + Sand Veil removes the uncontrollable hax while keeping Cacturne's viability intact.

Bans are meant to restrict or prohibit the usage of overpowered Pokemon; they are NOT meant to restrict or discourage the usage of NU Pokemon. That's the issue.

 

[Dragon Rider]

How about we look at some cold hard numbers taken from the August usage stats (maybe not a
complete survey but as close as we can get) and see what we get.

WARNING: LONG POST AHEAD

NOTE: The following is formatted as such:
Pokemon Name (OU usage number)
Percentage of Sand Veil out of Total OU Percentage = Sand Veil Pokemon Usage

Gliscor (#8)
7.403% of 12.196% = 0.90286988%

Donphan (#38)
4.816% of 6.068% = 0.29223488%

Dugtrio (#44)
3.487% of 5.278% = 0.18404386%

Sandslash (#109)
10.460% of 0.885% = 0.092571%

Cacturne (#215)
68.931% of 0.167% = 0.11511477%

Golem (#238)
4.274% of 0.109% = 0.00465866%

Stunfisk (#258)
0.073%

Gabite (#348)
0.022%

That's the actual numbers from the August stats and they paint a pretty interesting picture woldn't you say? BTW, that is every fully evolved Pokemon with Sand Veil as a possible ability.

The set everybody has been griping about (aside from Garchomp) is the Sub/SD/Acrobatics/EQ SV Gliscor. It is by far the most "common" Veil abuser on the list and it still only tops out at 0.9% of OU battles.

Now after seeing how rare that is, let's take it up a notch.We all know Sand Veil does nothing without.....SAND!I bet everybody out there is thinking "Thanks Captain Obvious!"But seriously,that adds another layer to the argument.The weather starters had the following usages:

Tyranitar (#6) = 13.399%
Hippowdon (#53) = 3.946%
TOTAL FOR SAND = 17.345%

Politoed (#1) = 19.698%
Ninetales (#16) = 10.169%
Abomasnow (#54) = 3.320%
TOTAL FOR OTHER WEATHERS = 33.187%

So in a third of the matches where somebody wants to abuse Sand Veil, they'll have to get their weather up.Notice I did NOT say win the weather war.But they will have to get Sand up and then get in their Veiler.I don't want to get into a whole argument here as changing weather is more a check and has never been enough to save a broken strategy (see almost all BW bans to date) but I have noticed some people talk about Gliscor on ideal circumstances.That is Sand up and your opponent having to switch in their weather starter.This has merit as Ninetales will die to EQ,I belive Politoed is 2HKO, and Abomasnow is OHKO by Acrobatics.On the reverse side of the coin, a Gliscor is NOT switching in on Politoed (Rain boosted water moves/Ice Beam),Ninetales (Sun boosted fire moves/Will-O-Wisp), or Abomasnow (Blizzard,Leech Seed) when they have their weathers up so it is a wash.

So after actually using a rare strategy (0.9) and then beating the odds of getting your weather up, you get the huge advantage of 20% evasion.I'm not getting over excited here.Now it does look a lot better after figuring in Sub as the chances to hit a 100% accurate move against a Leftovers SV Pokemon 5 times in a row is a slim 32.768 (0.8*0.8*0.8*0.8*0.8).The chances for a non-Lefties SV Pokemon is 40.96% (0.8*0.8*0.8*0.8).Keep in mind however, this only works if the SubSV Pokemon is faster.A slower SV has to risk a hit at 80%.If it is hit, it reduces the number of Subs it can produce and will lower its chances for an intact Sub.

It seems to me,that Garchomp is the ONLY Pokemon that has abused SV to a point of broken.One Pokemon out of them all.If this test shows that Garchomp is indeed still broken (I'm on the fence here) with Sand Veil,I believe Garchomp should remain banned and Sand Veil left alone.Sand Veil makes Garchomp (arguablly) broken and nothing else.Just like Speed Boost only made Blaziken broken and Sand Rush only made Excadrill broken.

So why are we even looking at this?The only thing I can see is the "On Principle" argument.Double Team is banned "on principle".Brightpowder is banned "on principle".Sand Veil and Snow Cloak should be banned on principle.That seems to be the common argument here.The Pro-Ban side is pretty determined that no matter how small of a chance, Sand Veil (and by extension Snow Cloak) are uncompetetive and can change the tide of a battle unfairly.I don't agree with banning things on principle (especially as a "complete" Evasion Clause would also need to include Tangled Feet/Starf Berry/Acupressure) and it does seem to stretch into the Council as can be seen on this post by Alderon http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4379937&postcount=191

That posts clearly shows that the "in practice" side of Sand Veil is being taken into consideration.Since that seems to be the case (correct me if I am wrong) it then raises a serious question.Why is it an ability that numbers show clearly has no signifigant presence in the OU Metagame being considered for a ban?Because the player base hates losing to that strategy more than others on principle?How far can a principle ban go and do we really want to set that kind of precedence for the future?

 

[yee]

Bans are meant to restrict or prohibit the usage of overpowered Pokemon; they are NOT meant to restrict or discourage the usage of NU Pokemon. That's the issue.

It is not an issue. I really can't comprehend how a post on Smogon can be made saying we need to consider NU mons when tiering OU. OU is the only tier Smogon needs to make. It is the 100% priority- if NU were to dissapear in a black hole so that a ban could be made in OU the Smogon choice would be to make the ban in OU.

As for Sand Veil, I think it can be justified to say that Sand Veil itself is broken because of every Sub SD sweeper you can use on sand. They have almost a 70% chance to get a free Sub / SD and a chance higher than a crit to grab an extra boost or an extra kill behind that sub. If a move crits you, fine, you can have a backup. With something set up behind a sub with SD boosts taking out your first line of defense if you don't have Skarmory or Quagisre you lost.

Edit- Oh everyone on the last page already made my point :/

 

[Ewil]

I'm a NU player and i don't really care for Cacturne being nerfed by a ban coming from OU.
UU didn't think twice to ban Gothitelle and she was banned from all tiers under it, so i don't understand the motivation that you stop in front a little nerf of a NU poke. Cacturne's first role in NU is setting up spikes and gives some offensive presence and you'll don't negate both of them if you ban Sand Veil, because the only two (really useful) moves that gets 'banned' from Cacturne are Encore and Bullet Seed that YES, makes the job of Cacturne easier, but Cacturne still has Spikes and Sucker Punch, his maine support and offensive moves.

So, i didn't play OU a lot recently, but i saw a lot of Suspect battles and play assiduously when Garchomp was still around in BW1, so i want to say my two cents on him.

I see Garchomp not broken with Rough Skin and like others says, he's even a good add in the metagame.
The real broken thing is Sand Veil. This ability brokes the Evasion Clause visibly and deserves the ban since not one but two pokes can abuse it at its full potentials and most famous and abused, Garchomp, usually makes easy battles simply with a miss on a move. And usually that moves are not really accurate per se like Hydro Pump or Draco Meteor, so Sand Veil makes the revenge job even harder and luck based and talking about accurate moves, why punish users that give up power for accuracy ? You use Surf over Hydro Pump to have a guaranteed hit, and vs Garchomp in sand, you have and Hydro Pump with less power :/

Yep, that's true that Sand Veil is only useful in sand, but that doesn't changes in any case the break of the Evasion Clause. That's the point for me.

So in conclusion i'm totally in favor of the Sand Veil ban because is an uncompetitive ability and breaks the Evasion Clause visibly.

 

[Stratos]

I brought up those same counters, tehy. I said "there's no way gliscor can be broken - you can beat it with Thundurus, or Zapdos, or Rotom-W." Then I saw the calcs:

Standard AcroBat vs 192/64 Zapdos: "Acrobatics: 252-297 (68.29 - 80.48%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock"
Standard AcroBat vs 112/0 "Bulky" Rotom-W "Acrobatics: 225-264 (83.64 - 98.14%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock"
Standard AcroBat vs 0/0 Thundurus-I "Acrobatics: 317-373 (106.02 - 124.74%) -- guaranteed OHKO"

now granted, this is with an intact flying gem but how many people are going to pack more than one of these? And if you say "oh i'll switch to something else to waste its flying gem" then what are you smoking? Give gliscor extra setup opportunities? Yes, let's!

 

[SpecsX]

@yee: If NU were to disappear into a "black hole" because of a simple ban in OU, there would be no good reason to shut down an entire metagame when another ban accomplishes the same thing with no detrimental effect.
Also, SVchomp is extremely broken. So easy to miss a move that would break Chomp's Sub so you can't even revenge it. Even if you do break its Sub, it can usually Sub up until you miss, and if it can't Sub anymore, it usually just OHKOs you. What do you expct people to do, run Aerial Ace Skarmory on every team?

 

[PK Gaming]

Firstly:Skarmory AND bronzong. They mostly play the same role, but there are slight differences.

I'll admit that i ignore certain pokemon because they don't threaten me, but the fact is that you even have that option to begin with. Garchomp is exponentially more dangerous because you cannot just pack skarm and GG. Yes, it's difficult to pack such a pokemon on an offensive team, but it's still Possible. Also, gliscor's much more predictable;if it lacks toxic orb it's always Sub/SD/earthquake/acrobatics with a flying gem and sand veil.

I didn't really include Bronzong because it's not a reliable counter. At +2 Acrobatics: 178-210 (52.66 - 62.13%) -- guaranteed 3HKO against standard Bronzong. Bronzong itself cannot OHKO with HP Ice, and it needs to contend with the fact that it can miss, and if it's not running HP ice then don't even fucking bother. Gliscor is wins if Bronzong switches into SD. I guess I could accept that it's a good check due to resisting its STAB. But then again there's all sorts of stuff that needs to be kept track of. Bronzong's lack of recovery, Bronzong being a poor choice in general (I don't HATE IT, but I feel that other Steel-types such as Skarmory, Forry, etc are better choices in GENERAL. Bronzong is good by virtue of being able to check sand veil abusers).

The predictability argument is weak. It's a mid to lategame sweeper, so if your opponent doesn't instantly bring out Gliscor, that should tip you off immediately. Regardless you aren't miraculously capable of stopping Gliscor once you know the set. It gets sent out, sets up and goes wild tearing apart your team, usually pretty maniacally, and sometimes without a way to stop it if Sand Veil is activated.

As for checks; rotom-w and thundurus-t are here. Rotom-w needs a lot of luck or HP ice, but HP ice isn't without merit in this metagame. Thundurus-T speed ties with gliscor, which means that gliscor can't just sub for free. (It i mostly see it scarfed, though.) Also, i'd like to nominate zapdos. It generally has the bulk to beat gliscor, outspeeds it, and it doesn't really cede that much momentum, especially since it can just volt switch. And i actually think standard starmie can take an acrobatics. Also, chomp can force out base 100s, landorus-I, and non-scarf genesect, and has a higher attack. See, garchomp creates problems for ALL teams when sand is up, while gliscor can be beaten in a lot of different ways. Think of it as gliscor being a pistol, and garchomp being a cannon. Yes, a pistol will still kill you if it hits, but at least you can pack bulletproof armor. Now, you can make a bunch of arguments for why that's bad, but at least it is POSSIBLE. What exactly stops a rocket launcher?

Ok I appreciate you trying to refute my points instead of going "NO! SV GLISCOR IS NOT BROKEN OK!" but i'm afraid I have to disagree with your "checks." By your own admission, Rotom-w needs a lot of luck with, which is problem #1. HP ice is meh on Rotom-W, but it's actually a viable move now and that's largely due to the fact that it needs it to deal with Sand Veil users. I would not run it on average since Rotom-W doesn't really have the room (its hard to pass up WoW or Pain Split.) Hydro Pump is operating at 60% accuracy against them which is just... stick a fork in Rotom-W if Garchomp or Gliscor are behind a sub and you need to rely on Hydro Pump to remove them. There was a funny inside joke that Garchomp was the best Rotom-W counter in the game, but Gliscor's not that far behind if play it correctly. But I digress, This entire line of thought is made irrelevant by the fact the Gliscor beats Rotom-W anyway. All that's required to produce a little bit of extra damage or SR in order to 2 shot it.

***
Acrobatics vs 4HP Rotom-W: 204-241 (84.29 - 99.58%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Acrobatics vs 252HP Rotom-W: 204-241 (67.1 - 79.27%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

***

So defensive Rotom-W has to switch into Gliscor as it subs, and prays it hits with Hydro Pump or Hidden Power Ice (the latter of which lowers your effectiveness on average). If it even misses once, it loses and Gliscor ends up beating it. Even the legendary 252 HP / 252 Def Bold Rotom-W needs a little bit of prior damage and its 2HKOed.

Oh and by the way, Thundurus-T is faster than Gliscor (You also said that . It's a crappy check though, because it's a frail as shit. It'll force out Gliscor once, and get completely crippled in the process. Zapdos is slightly more effective at stopping Gliscor as Rotom-W (read: not really that effective.). It's faster, and has enough bulk to survive Acrobatics at +2, but it's SR weak so picking it off defensive varients when they've been weakened is easy. All of these checks lose if they miss once btw. As for your analogy, Garchomp is a like Magnum and Gliscor is like a pair 2 pistols. Bang-bang.

Yikes, sorry just a dash of stupidity ruined for you.

HA HA, good comeback man! I completely GET your creative comebacks. Keep it up!

TL;DR Basically, with gliscor AND garchomp you have the ability to run bulky stuff and hope for no miss. The difference is, the former can be checked much more easily, because you can just resist/be immune to both of his moves, and is much more predictable, because 99.9% of gliscor lacking toxic orb are that exact set, whereas garchomp might have a choice band or scarf. Also, gliscor can be hard-walled, whereas garchomp cannot.

I didn't intend to bring Garchomp in on this. Garchomp is so much better than Gliscor with Sand Veil like that pretty much goes without saying. However I disagree with the notion that Gliscor is THAT MUCH EASIER to check.

How about we look at some cold hard numbers taken from the August usage stats (maybe not a
complete survey but as close as we can get) and see what we get.

I'm going to stop you right there. You shouldn't place much stock in usage stats, and you can't use them argue your point, especially when you consider:
1. We're a few months in BW2, the current stats don't represent the current metagame whatsoever. (IE players are a lot more likely to use the shiny new threats instead of some old ones like Gliscor)
2. Teams are lot weaker on average. The suspect ladder has definitely changed this however.

If you were to gather usage stats from tournament matches or the suspect ladder, you'd have a stronger case. As for your point of banning Sand Veil/Snow Cloak on principle? I've got no problem with that whatsoever. I'm not exactly why we're even trying to keep these inherently broken abilities. There are a lot of bad ideas in this game that happen to work because they're usually balanced by other factors but Sand Veil/Snow Cloak are just not meant to work in a competitive environment.

PK Gaming, SV Acro Gliscor was NOWHERE NEAR metagame-defining as Garchomp was last year. Yes, SV Acro Gliscor was powerful and a solid replacement after Garchomp left, but it's far inferior to the landshark. The power levels between the two is analogous to the power gap between Landorus and Flygon.

I also don't think you fully understand the issue with Sand Veil + Cacturne. It's not all-or-nothing deal here; a complex ban of Sandstream + Sand Veil removes the uncontrollable hax while keeping Cacturne's viability intact.

Bans are meant to restrict or prohibit the usage of overpowered Pokemon; they are NOT meant to restrict or discourage the usage of NU Pokemon. That's the issue.

You're not paying attention Pocket, i've made it clear that power levels between the 2 are irrelevant. Is there really a difference between an A++++ and A+?!?

One of the worst things about Sand Veil Gliscor is how underrated it is by the majority of the site. We know from most of the competitive tournaments that Gliscor is kind of a "big deal." It had a huge influence throughout this years WCOP, you can ask any of the WCOP regulars, and they'll tell you straight up that Gliscor was a nightmare. I'll be gathering tournament logs, so stay tuned. I'll admit that dropping tournament data isn't a substitute for an actual argument, but I don't like how they're their completely disregarded .Gliscor isn't metagame defining because most players don't use it. This leads to flagrant misdiagnoses of what's going on in the actual metagame as some pretty poor players (Read: not you or anyone in particular really) always try to shoehorn their opinion here as it actually means something. They're biased in that "if I don't have a problem with this, then it's obviously not broken!"

And way to miss the point on bans. Bans are meant to ban an overpowering element in any given game. That's it. Everything else is gravy. I'm really baffled by the source of your outrage here, but your post seems to share a sentiment with some other weird posts I'm reading on the banning of Sand Veil and it's effects on Pokemon as a whole. That is, the complete and utter opposition of "nerfing" Pokemon's movepools. I hate how people are actually trying to fight to keep this broken ability in the game, merely because banning it would nerf a few (and I seriously mean a few) Pokemon. You didn't actually address my earlier question. Would you be opposed to banning Sand Veil if it didn't result nerfing Pokemon? Be honest.

Should Smogon have them all these players instantly gratified in the exact way they desired? Why not unban Blaze Blaziken if that's the case, it wasn't fair that thing got banned because of it's speed boost ability. (I don't actually think this, i'm trying to show you how futile it is to bring "fairness" to the table).

And no, complex banning Sand Veil doesn't really "fix" anything. It's just an arbitrary nerf to sand teams.

---
So as usual, tough to please everyone.

 

[pharaohcalvin]

For me it has nothing to do with saving Cacturne's move pool, it has to do with I don't see Sand Veil as broken. To me for an ability to be banned, it has to make almost every pokemon that gets to broken. Sand Veil just doesn't do that, the only thing it makes remotely questionable is Gar, which I am not even 100% sure being broken with it myself. (I am on the line with that one) Then if you consider Garchomp AND Gliscor broken that is 2/8 final stages, which is not enough to convince me that it needs to be banned.

 

[voodoo pimp]

Gliscor (#8)
7.403% of 12.196% = 0.0090286988%

Donphan (#38)
4.816% of 6.068% = 0.0029223488%

Dugtrio (#44)
3.487% of 5.278% = 0.0018404386%

Sandslash (#109)
10.460% of 0.885% = 0.00092571%

Cacturne (#215)
68.931% of 0.167% = 0.0011511477%

Golem (#238)
4.274% of 0.109% = 0.0000465866%

Just as a note, the third set of numbers are all off by a factor of 100. Still a small amount, sure, but not nearly as insignificant as your numbers imply.

 

[Pocket]

Garchomp is A++ Gliscor is B+

Yes, Gliscor was one of those mons that tour players like to use; so are Sun teams, stall, and Alakazam. Tour players tend to play underrated threats or playstyle to surprise their opponent with threats that may potentially be overlooked. However these threats don't really define the metagame.

However, Garchomp is different. The metagame last year pretty much revolved around Garchomp. It was the sun that our teams orbited. Gliscor is nothing of the sort, and it's silly to say otherwise.

It is not an issue. I really can't comprehend how a post on Smogon can be made saying we need to consider NU mons when tiering OU. OU is the only tier Smogon needs to make. It is the 100% priority- if NU were to dissapear in a black hole so that a ban could be made in OU the Smogon choice would be to make the ban in OU.

You do realize that NU pokemon can be played in OU, right? If we're going to disregard the repercussions of lesser used mons in OU then we would've banned Sand Veil a long time ago lol (I actually nominated a complex ban on Sand Veil + Sandstream last year, because I wanted Garchomp to stay and dgaf about SV Gliscor / Cacturne; obviously my stance has matured since then).

And way to miss the point on bans. Bans are meant to ban an overpowering element in any given game. That's it. Everything else is gravy. I'm really baffled by the source of your outrage here, but your post seems to share a sentiment with some other weird posts I'm reading on the banning of Sand Veil and it's effects on Pokemon as a whole. That is, the complete and utter opposition of "nerfing" Pokemon's movepools. I hate how people are actually trying to fight to keep this broken ability in the game, merely because banning it would nerf a few (and I seriously mean a few) Pokemon. You didn't actually address my earlier question. Would you be opposed to banning Sand Veil if it didn't result nerfing Pokemon? Be honest.

I am not missing the point on bans; Sand Veil + Sandstream bans an overpowering element. Done. Why do we have to nerf Cacturne's movepool at all lol?

To answer your question, No, I would not be opposed to banning Sand Veil if it didn't result nerfing Pokemon. But it does - a perfectly non-broken mon. A ban isn't supposed to lower the viability of a non-broken mon. Is it that hard to understand? It's supposed to "ban an overpowering element in any given game," as you put it. I think you're missing the point >_>

As for SV Chomp actually being broken, I've yet to see through the handful of matches I played on the suspect ladder. Won't say further, though, cuz I haven't laddered enough to really justify this.

 

[Jukain]

I am not opposed to banning Sand Veil. It is easier and fixes the ENTIRE problem. In addition, Cacturne loses Bullet Seed and Encore. I don't care about Bullet Seed when Seed Bomb exists and Encore is slightly worse but still not a huge deal. It's really not some super huge nerf, it's really just one move. @Pocket: SV Garchomp is really bad. You literally have to have multiple checks JUST IN CASE you miss. It's pretty ridiculous, I mean I usually have two Scarfers just out of the cores I build, so I'm okay, but with SV it is broken and with Rough Skin it is an above-average 'mon.

 

[BKC]

PK's post is quality and he mentioned pretty much everything I wanted to say. Oh, and Sand Veil Garchomp is still an absolute nightmare, anyone who says different most likely hasn't played on the ladder. I've won several games I should've lost because of it and I've lost several games I should've won because of it. If you want an example of how stupid SV is, here you go: I switched Chomp into Rotom-W as it missed Will-O-Wisp. I then Subbed and 3HKO'd with Dragon Claw while it missed 3 Hydro Pumps; since Chomp had a Sub up, his Genesect had to break it before revenge killing, which allowed me to Earthquake Gene low enough for my Mamoswine's Ice Shard to kill. There was no way I should've won that game and yet, thanks to Sand Veil, I did.

Also, Pocket, if we complex ban Sand Stream + Sand Veil, you're at risk of Garchomp robbing you of a well-earned win just for bringing a sand team. Is that risk really worth preserving Cacturne's movepool [and is losing Bullet Seed / Encore really that big a deal anyway]?

 

[PK Gaming]

Garchomp is A++ Gliscor is B+

Yes, Gliscor was one of those mons that tour players like to use; so are Sun teams, stall, and Alakazam. Tour players tend to play underrated threats or playstyle to surprise their opponent with threats that may potentially be overlooked. However these threats don't really define the metagame

So ok, the grading I gave should be not be taken seriously, at all >_>. The implication, is that Gliscor is a lot worse than Garchomp, but can still be just as annoying to face, and that's largely due to Sand Veil, an inherently broken ability. Even if it's worse than Garchomp, we shouldn't have to put up with dealing with Gliscor because Gliscor is goddamn ridiculous in its own right. I don't want to beat this over your head, but yeah SubSD Gliscor is really, really good.

You're wrong. Gliscor is different than Sun team & Alakazam. Hell sun isn't even anti-meta, but i'll humor for a bit. The difference between Alakazam & Sun teams, is that while the former were "anti-meta" and used to catch players off guard, the latter was EVERYWHERE. It was used because it was ludicrously good, it didn't matter if its presence was known or not." When did defining the metagame suddenly matter? The crux of my argument is that Sand Veil Gliscor is overpowered garbage, the fact that it defines the metagame is frankly "irrelevant." So because PS player / PO players (IIRC a good deal of top ranked PO players used SubSD Gliscor) it's suddenly not broken? Hell no.

However, Garchomp is different. The metagame last year pretty much revolved around Garchomp. It was the sun that our teams orbited. Gliscor is nothing of the sort, and it's silly to say otherwise.
You do realize that NU pokemon can be played in OU, right? If we're going to disregard the repercussions of lesser used mons in OU then we would've banned Sand Veil a long time ago lol (I actually nominated a complex ban on Sand Veil + Sandstream last year, because I wanted Garchomp to stay and dgaf about SV Gliscor / Cacturne; obviously my stance has matured since then).

Stop trying to argue your case through Garchomp. I'm trying to say Sand Veil is a stupid, broken, crutchy ability that's also ridiculously overpowered on Gliscor and has no business staying in OU. It's not ancillary to my argument, so stop bringing it up. If you're going to continue arguing, focus on that.

As for your second point... What? I don't understand what you're trying to say at all. I know that NU Pokemon (Cacturne) are used in OU, I mentioned Eo & his Cacturne a few times remember? And his Cacturne was actually a threat, because sand veil is a stupid, broken, crutchey crutch crutchey-crutch of an ability that rewards you for doing NOTHING and Eo realized this and decided to capitalize on that (and to troll) horrible ability. I am well of aware of the fact that NU pokemon can be used in OU... what are you trying to say here? Incidentally, banning Sand Veil would not "ruin" NU. Cacturne is ONE Pokemon that doesn't even begin to represent the tier. We are not butchering NU Pokemon by banning Sand Veil, we're straight up removing more luck factors from every facet of the game, which was the original point of Evasion clause. Somewhere along the way we were like, k this is fine, which was wrong.

FYI: Rey actually had a little bit of trouble with Gabite so I know of their power in OU(lol).

---

I would say your stance has actually gotten worse since you would damn an entire game to keep a few movepools intact, but I digress.

I am not missing the point on bans; Sand Veil + Sandstream bans an overpowering element. Done. Why do we have to nerf Cacturne's movepool at all lol?

And no, complex banning Sand Veil doesn't really "fix" anything. It's just an arbitrary nerf to sand teams.

To answer your question, No, I would not be opposed to banning Sand Veil if it didn't result nerfing Pokemon. But it does - a perfectly non-broken mon. A ban isn't supposed to lower the viability of a non-broken mon. Is it that hard to understand? It's supposed to "ban an overpowering element in any given game," as you put it. I think you're missing the point >_>

Hell to the freaking no. You're either FOR a Sand Veil ban or a against one. You absolutely CANNOT suggest a ruleset to suit your own needs... that's called being extremely selfish. It's like proposing that we allow 1 swift swimmer with 470bst or less because not being able to use swift swim luvdisc in OU.

It's bullshit... By your own admission, but you would not be opposed to a global Sand Veil ban, but because doing would limit a few Pokemon, you're completely against the idea. It literally sounds like you're suggesting we take could take a different approach because *some* people don't like something? Oh no! Who would have thought a certain quantity of people wouldn't like something! That's extremely self-fish. We do not half-ass bans. You don't suggest a sand veil + sand stream ban or something similar to that because it fixes nothing.

All of this considered, even if you're of the mindset of "NEVER NEVER EVER BAN SAND VEIL" in competitive play, it's still beyond me how you can actually consider having it banned, but won't because it ends up nerfing a few Pokemon. Remember, this is Smogon. This shit happens all of the time. Was it fair to ban Gothitelle in UU, then ban it in every subsequent tier despite it not technically being broken there? What if Moody was a default ability for several Pokemon, and banning it would lead to several movepool nerfs? Would you be opposed to banning that ability in that case?

The point is, we don't cater a specific group of people. Balancing the game around a specific group is stupid. If Cacturne getting nerfed is a casualty of making the game "better" then I see no problem in that.

Keeping one of the stupidest, broken, abilities in the game in OU is so wrong.

As for SV Chomp actually being broken, I've yet to see through the handful of matches I played on the suspect ladder. Won't say further, though, cuz I haven't laddered enough to really justify this.

it's still broken

 

[Pocket]

Ok, let's put on the brakes here...

1) Sand Veil is NOT inherently broken. If it was we would've banned it 2 generations ago, lol. It's largely dependent on how reliable the Sandstream users (TTar, Hippo) are in setting up sand, as well as the overall effectiveness of the Sand Veil user. It's NOTHING like Moody, which IS inherently broken and made shit mons like BIBAREL and OCTILLERY sweeping standard teams by simply mashing Protect + Sub. You don't see that with Sand Veil lol.

2) I dunno why you bring up Swift Swim Luvdisc lol. It's a terrible analogy. First, it's an overly convoluted rule; i'm only suggesting for a Sandstream + Sand Veil ban. You know, like Aldaron's Proposal or Smash Pass ban?

Secondly the context is totally irrelevant. There are no Pokemon going to Ubers because of Swift Swim. Swift Swim potentially broke multiple Pokemon with the free double Speed in the Rain, while Sand Veil broke... Garchomp. We certainly haven't heard people rallying for a SV Gliscor ban this PAST YEAR or during DPP lol.

3) If Sand Veil = Moody, then fuck yea, ban the shit out of it. However, I share the sentiments of pharaohcalvin; Sand Veil is not broken on its own, but only with the help of its wielder and the sand inducer. That's why I'm against unnecessarily affecting non-broken mons like Cacturne for a blanket ban on an ability that isn't even close to Moody / Swift Swim-in-perma-rain brokenness.

3b) This is why I also don't get your Gothi ban example, because it was legitimately broken in UU due to its ridiculous ability to facilitate Scarf Hera / Darma sweep; SV isn't broken.

4) And lol what is wrong with SV Garchomp trolling on Sand teams? A SV Chomp without a supply of its own sand inducer is not broken at all, like Kingdra without a Politoed. Saying otherwise would make you totally clueless of THE issue to begin with (aka the "uncontrollable misses"). If we follow your logic we should've banned Swift Swim.

EDIT: can we start speaking with logic rather than emotion

 

[DuncanDomino]

I like the idea of a band on Sandstream+Sand Veil.
Being a SubSD Gliscor user, I can vouch for the ridiculousness of it. I've come back from a 6-2 defecit, and swept with him for the win.
As pocket said, if someone wants to run the risk of using a SV pokemon on their non sand team, by all means let them run it. It's more situational at that point, and more often than not, will be a waste.

 

[Dragon Rider]

I'm going to stop you right there. You shouldn't place much stock in usage stats, and you can't use them argue your point, especially when you consider:
1. We're a few months in BW2, the current stats don't represent the current metagame whatsoever. (IE players are a lot more likely to use the shiny new threats instead of some old ones like Gliscor)
2. Teams are lot weaker on average. The suspect ladder has definitely changed this however.

If you were to gather usage stats from tournament matches or the suspect ladder, you'd have a stronger case. As for your point of banning Sand Veil/Snow Cloak on principle? I've got no problem with that whatsoever. I'm not exactly why we're even trying to keep these inherently broken abilities. There are a lot of bad ideas in this game that happen to work because they're usually balanced by other factors but Sand Veil/Snow Cloak are just not meant to work in a competitive environment.

OK.Where can I get the Tournament stats?They will be far more useful than the Suspect Ladder is to full of bias for any concrete conclussions.I want to see some real data as it seems some people are claiming to see SVScor practically every game and others might not have seen one in ages.

Doesn't the "new toys" argument work against SVScor?Sure people want to play the new thing, but almost all those new things work on Rain.This means not only will Gliscor be outside its prefered weather more often, it has fewer safe switches period.Keldo has STAB special water,Genesect will have a Download boosted Ice Beam against him,Thunderus-T almost always carry HP Ice, and even Tornadus-T has Hurricane to hit it hard.Matter of fact,I would say the August stats don't truly reflect how often those were used as everyone and their dog is playing rain and Genesect is everywhere.

I believe that to truly get a good feel for Garchomp, the test would need to last longer.Everyone is excited that they can use Garchomp.It pairs best with Sand.So everyone plays Sand.This leads to Sand Veil almost always on and therefore a higher number of misses reported.After the hype wears down and more Rain,Sun, and Hail teams were used we could get a better understanding.The same reason you say SVScor is being downplayed in Standard OU is why SVChomp is being overplayed on the Suspect.Its shiny and new and is really really good.

As for the banning on principle, do we really want to start that?I mean where would a line be drawn?More importantly, how would you know the thing in question is actually broken or just broken in theory/principle?

Let's use Shadow Tag as an example.At the start of BW,people were wanting a Shadow Tag clause because "OMG MOST BROKORZ EVAR!".Know what happened?Wobbuffet fell all the way down to RU levels of use before UU decided to ban it on principle.In my opinion this should never have happened but I can't change it.Gothitelle gets Shadow Tag released and guess what?RU cleanly votes it 7-0 to NOT BAN but UU decides to go ahead and ban on principle.Why do I say this?Going by August usage (will change if you can provide something better) Goth was #57 in UU usage,#59 in RU, and #10 in NU.Does that scream broken to anybody?Not theoretical "It trapped my only counter to Sweeper X" but actual game play broken?


So even ignoring its already sorted history,two out of three Shadow Taggers have had to be voted UP to BL and the other (Wynaut) is a pathetically ranked NU Pokemon.Would this seem to show evidence that the people saying Shadow Tag is broken were right or wrong?


Voodoo Pimp,Crap.You are absolutley right.I forgot to finish up each number before moving on.I have fixed the numbers in the post.

 

[Undead Red]

4) And lol what is wrong with SV Garchomp trolling on Sand teams? A SV Chomp without a supply of its own sand inducer is not broken at all, like Kingdra without a Politoed. Saying otherwise would make you totally clueless of THE issue to begin with (aka the "uncontrollable misses"). If we follow your logic we should've banned Swift Swim.

This should be my first post(I think), but I hope I can be heard on this anyways.

You're comparing SV Chomp outside of sand to Swift Swim abusers outside of rain, and that's not fair. For an example, look at Kingdra. A Kingdra outside of rain is not a top tier threat at all. A Garchomp, even a Garchomp running Sand Veil instead of Rough Skin despite not having sand support from one of its own teammates, is still a Garchomp.

Sand Veil not going to activate because neither you or your opponent are packing Tyranitar? That's not a problem. You've got Dragon and Ground STAB, massive attack, more than workable speed, and both of your best STAB options have 100 BP plus. There's not a good enough comparison to be drawn with Swift Swim abusers.

 

[Pallas Athena]

I'm a bit skeptical in judging Garchomp or Sand Veil as broken given that the ladder is filled with people trying to win with SV Garchomp. This means a lot more sand than there would ever plausibly be in a standard OU meta and amusingly enough, Garchomp is an amazing check to sand as not many standard sand Pokemon can afford a miss on it.

This isn't quite the case. I usually use Rain teams and I have never had a problem with Garchomp, now or when it was legal in OU the first time. Granted, it forces me to play a bit smarter and use my checks to Garchomp a bit more wisely, but the same is true for a myriad of threats. The problem with SV Garchomp is the same with any other weather sweeper that is potentially broken under the right conditions in that it requires team support to gain a chance at sweeping, and the chances of a sweep are still not particuarly phenomenal, as there is still a 64% chance of its sub breaking and then Chomp getting promptly revenge killed if it goes for Sub SD. Even then, it is still possible for the opponent to take a miss if they are not OHKO'd and they make sure to keep their Garchomp check alive.

Logically, sand will have an issue with a dragon that trolls the weather, has a speed stat that messes with almost all common sand Pokemon, and has a powerful STAB Earthquake. I'm not sure that it would be safe to call it completely broken given that the presence of Garchomp attracts the sand of the ladder. Between the fact that i'ts HAX is useless if it wins the weather war, it can be revenge killed even if sand is up, and there are a handful of solid checks and Revenge Killers I find it hard to declare SV Garchomp incredibly broken. If anything, it's borderline.

As for the rest of SV... people talk like the player against Sand Veil isn't the only one taking a risk. Sandslash, Gliscor, and Dugtrio all give up a very good ability by using Sand Veil. In order to benefit from this risk, they have to keep sand up and then pray that an 80% chance occurs. And then the checks have to be down or the player has to be really, really lucky. I fail to see how this is a huge variations from other sweepers, beyond the fact that its success is a percentage players can complain about, rather than the other "luck" factors that can ruin a sweep that take the form of critical hits and prediction. And once again, Sand Veil is a huge risk for the Pokemon not named Garchomp that use it, simply because they lose the bulk and status immunity of Poison Heal, the speed of Sand Rush, and the utility of Arena Trap. And if a team is swept by Golem or Cacturne because of a single unfortunate miss, the team may have bigger problems.


tl;dr Garchomp is best at fighting sand teams which makes the test a bit unfair to judge it on, Hail and Bulky Rain (and even offensive rain in most cases) handle Garchomp the same as they handle any other dragon if they play correctly, and on all Pokemon but Garchomp the player has to give up a much better ability to have a chance of occasionally winning a match they "shouldn't have won."


But those are just the thoughts of a rain player.

 

[Uvood]

This should be my first post(I think), but I hope I can be heard on this anyways.

You're comparing SV Chomp outside of sand to Swift Swim abusers outside of rain, and that's not fair. For an example, look at Kingdra. A Kingdra outside of rain is not a top tier threat at all. A Garchomp, even a Garchomp running Sand Veil instead of Rough Skin despite not having sand support from one of its own teammates, is still a Garchomp.

Sand Veil not going to activate because neither you or your opponent are packing Tyranitar? That's not a problem. You've got Dragon and Ground STAB, massive attack, more than workable speed, and both of your best STAB options have 100 BP plus. There's not a good enough comparison to be drawn with Swift Swim abusers.

The fact that Kingdra is used at all in OU is because it is useful outside its preferred weather. If not, Kingdra would be deadweight more than half the matches it was used in. It still does its job well, only that its ability is wasted when its weather is not up. Now, Kingdra has no reason to run its other abilities, but Garchomp actually has another ability which is reasonably useful, and will, on average, be more helpful in over half the matches its played in.

 

[Katakiri]

Isn't OU supposed to have priority over all the other tiers? Why is Cacturne even relevant? I'm not entirely ignorant of the tier; losing Bullet Seed & Encore sucks but changes in the higher tiers have a constant effect on lower tiers; this isn't anything new.

My biggest issue with a combo ban is the fact that it directly punishes Sandstorm teams, a good chunk of the OU metagame. I think Electrolyte put it best:

If Sand Veil+Sand complex ban was underwent, well Garchomp being so popular in Sun would support my idea. There you have it- the perfect counter to Sand, one that resists Rock types moves, uses enemy sand to transform itself into a Dancing monster, and punching massive holes in the opponent and then letting Chlorophyll sweepers do their thing

A complex ban doesn't fix the problem, at best it tries to sweep it under the rug. It's still there, it's just less noticeable.

Assuming I'm running Sand, the 3rd most common condition in OU, I'll bring in my Skarmory and miss my Whirlwind and get 2HKOed by Chomp's Fire Attack. Bring in Latios, miss the Draco because 90 Acc vs Sand Veil is the same as relying on a Hurricane outside of Rain or just Focus Blast in general. I bring in my Mew, my Thundurus-T, my Gliscor, Stoutland, whatever it is, there's still that huge chance of a miss.

It's not just Sun teams, Rain teams can run SV Garchomp just fine as well with Aqua Tail meaning I either give it Sand or let it smash my Skarmory or w/e with a boosted Aqua Tail. No downside to running it. Weather-less teams also have no downside to running SV Garchomp. Hail? You guessed it. A complex ban does nothing but help 84% of the metagame fuck-over 16% of the OU metagame.

It's not like Swift Swimmers that are all very average, below-average, or entirely-outclassed(Kingdra) Pokemon without Rain. Garchomp is a monster in any weather and is never dead weight on it's team. The same goes for Gliscor actually.

No matter which way you twist it, with Sand Veil, good players are not getting out-played, they're getting "haxed" out of a win. If I wanted an inaccurate Ice move, I would have picked Blizzard myself; I carry Ice Beam for the accuracy. This problem extends to Gliscor as well so please don't act like this is entirely an issue for Garchomp, granted he is the far bigger issue. Gliscor is more manageable...if you have a Skarmory but just like with Excadrill, some of us can't afford to run the one or two Pokemon that actually counter it. It has plenty of checks but counters are a different story and all of those checks rely on their accurate moves to take it down and even revenging it is a risky matter when it really shouldn't be. Latios Surf should take it out but we all know what can happen by this point.

It's an absolutely disgusting ability and the metagame as a whole, and especially sand, is better off without it; Sand Veil just needs to go. I'd much rather have Garchomp stay Uber than have yet another Sand Veil abuser to deal with. Oh and fuck Brightpowder; self-explanatory there.

 

[PK Gaming]

I scan up and down and I just see so much text. Sigh, this going to be a long day

Ok, let's put on the brakes here...

1) Sand Veil is NOT inherently broken. If it was we would've banned it 2 generations ago, lol. It's largely dependent on how reliable the Sandstream users (TTar, Hippo) are in setting up sand, as well as the overall effectiveness of the Sand Veil user. It's NOTHING like Moody, which IS inherently broken and made shit mons like BIBAREL and OCTILLERY sweeping standard teams by simply mashing Protect + Sub. You don't see that with Sand Veil lol.

Actually it is. A free evasion boost isn't broken? In your opinion dude; personally I think it's a dumb mechanic. The fact that it wasn't broken in the previous gens is completely irrelevant. Why should we care if it wasn't banned before? It should have no bearing on our current discussion since we're talking about gen V. FYI i'd have banned it in gen III's & IV if it were up to me.

2) I dunno why you bring up Swift Swim Luvdisc lol. It's a terrible analogy. First, it's an overly convoluted rule; i'm only suggesting for a Sandstream + Sand Veil ban. You know, like Aldaron's Proposal or Smash Pass ban?

You're cherry picking my argument. It was just a minor point in the grand scheme of things. I just used it to show your argument was equally terrible (the "I don't want to ban something because it might nerf") Looks like you made the right decision and dropped it, because seriously dude wtf?

Secondly the context is totally irrelevant. There are no Pokemon going to Ubers because of Swift Swim. Swift Swim potentially broke multiple Pokemon with the free double Speed in the Rain, while Sand Veil broke... Garchomp. We certainly haven't heard people rallying for a SV Gliscor ban this PAST YEAR or during DPP lol.

See above. This isn't even close to the crux of my argument. You're presuming that I'm placing stock in that venue of logic when in reality I just used it to disown your previous argument.

3) If Sand Veil = Moody, then fuck yea, ban the shit out of it. However, I share the sentiments of pharaohcalvin; Sand Veil is not broken on its own, but only with the help of its wielder and the sand inducer. That's why I'm against unnecessarily affecting non-broken mons like Cacturne for a blanket ban on an ability that isn't even close to Moody / Swift Swim-in-perma-rain brokenness.

I guess we just don't see eye to eye then. I don't see a problem in removing the last broken ability in the game. I don't have a problem with removing an ability that rewards bad players for playing poorly and punishes good players for playing well. Sand Veil may not be as broken as Moody, but it invokes a similar "take the game out of the players hand" effect which just pisses me off to no end. You can at least prepare for most of the threats in the current metagame. You can't prepare for Sand Veil, no matter what you do. That's my main argument. A sand veil ban (to me) is comparable to banning double team or OHKO moves.

Where is the Sand Veil isn't a big deal mindset coming from anyway? Once you learn how to effectively use this ability, the match swings to your favour. You don't need perfect playing skills, but your opponents do when they have to prevent themselves from being checkmated if they miss. It takes the game out of your hands... it's the very worst kind of ability.

I don't think we'll ever agree on this point.

3b) This is why I also don't get your Gothi ban example, because it was legitimately broken in UU due to its ridiculous ability to facilitate Scarf Hera / Darma sweep; SV isn't broken.

Did you uh... actually read the Gothitelle council thread? Or my post for that matter? I voted to ban it. If I wasn't clear, I was saying that it wasn't "fair" to ban Gothitelle in the lower tiers as it wasn't broken in RU or NU. My point again, was to discredit your original appeal to emotion you made about not banning because it would nerf movepools.

4) And lol what is wrong with SV Garchomp trolling on Sand teams? A SV Chomp without a supply of its own sand inducer is not broken at all, like Kingdra without a Politoed. Saying otherwise would make you totally clueless of THE issue to begin with (aka the "uncontrollable misses"). If we follow your logic we should've banned Swift Swim.

You. are. not. serious. My goal is to remove Sand Veil because it adds unnecesarry luck factors to Pokemon... Swift Swim and Sand Veil aren't comparable in the slightest! With Drizzle vs SS Kingdra, you know what to expect going in. If you're up against a rain team or a weatherless team using Garchomp, there's a chance of you straight up losing, even if you play the match perfectly.It's different from Kingdra, because it's actually possible to play around it (though it's very hard.). The difference between dealing with Kingdra (powerful counter) & sand veil users (luck) is huge. Katakiri basically sums it up better than I ever could.

BTW, You're using Sand Veil + Sandstorm ban to suit your own needs; you've stated that Sand Veil wasn't a big deal, so why would you needs interested in a SV +SS ban in the first place? It shouldn't be a feasible option if you truly think that Sand Veil isn't broken. That's called special pleading.

EDIT: can we start speaking with logic rather than emotion

I can say the same to you. You basically missed my entire point, failed to refute anything substantial and went on tangential rant about the ramifications of Swift Swim and other things that don't matter whatsoever. Only the 3rd point was legitimate, and that's entirely your opinion. Agree to disagree & what not.