Latias (Ubers Analysis) (GP 2/2)

shrang

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I still don't like the "stallbreaker" set. Latias in no way, breaks stall. Ever. Since Roar is your main slash, you're still losing to Ferrothorn, losing to Toxic, losing to pretty much everything you'd normally lose to. It does nothing that the first set does not do already. If you really want to run Refresh, you can just slash onto the first set. Latias is bulky enough as it is without much investment. I see no reason why we can't just AC a more defensive spread with the support options (Roar, Refresh, Substitute). Like I said, running so much bulk on Latias is just defeating the point of using Latias entirely. The reason Latias is so good is because with Soul Dew, she does not need to invest significantly in bulk to do her job, which means she can invest more in offenses. If you really want to run a stallbreaker set, I can't see why you wouldn't use something like CM mono Dragon Arceus for pretty much better results.

As for the other sets, I just don't know what to say. What are these "Specially Defensive" and "Support" sets doing? Why have we split the Dual Screens set up to two even worse sets? If any of you thought Dual Screens was questionable, then I have no idea what you see in these two sets.

Like I said on IRC, I am not sold on the support set. If you really want a Healing Wish user, you're better off with Cresselia; atleat she can defeat Rayquaza and other physical threats, and she's so annoying to take down.
Oh the other hand, Latias is much faster, has offenses that actually exist, as well as being able to switch into Kyogre, Palkia and a whole host of other threats. I'm not saying the support set is good, but you cannot write off Dual Screens like that. You might say Dual Screens is also not very good because it involves sacrificing Latias, but you should also be aware of when to sacrifice Latias. In more offensive teams, you don't need to keep Latias alive, you only need her to switch in once or twice (into Kyogre, generally), set up screens and continue your onslaught. I'm also very skeptical of the Specially Defensive set. It does NOT beat Mewtwo apart from phazing it ONCE. +1 Psystrike does 54.12% - 63.74% and you cannot KO it in any way.

So yeah, I'd just suggest scrapping SpD and the support set, then bring back Dual Screens.
 
Remaining EVs are invested in SpA. EVs allow Latias to always 2HKO Specially Defensive Giratina with Draco Meteor without SR (144 SpA EVs are bare minimum). Coincidentally, SpA EVs also allows her to always 2HKO SD Lucario with Draco Meteor without SR.
Why are we even mentioning Lucario in Ubers anymore? Just drop it off and if you run max Special Attack trading for bulk, you might as well just go with Latios.

Furai: EV spread of 228 HP / 40 SpA / 240 Spe can be used.
I disagree with this, max Speed is standard on all Latias sets now. Drop it from HP, 216 HP / 40 SpA / 252 Spe. Max Speed is for other Latias not Terrakion.

Specially Defensive seems rather bad to me though. You don't beat Mewtwo at all. You can only phaze it out once, [ +1 Ice Beam still 2HKOes, Psytrike 2HKOes too ] something Giratina and Lugia can do as well. What is worse is that how is Latias actually killing bulky Kyogre with no Special Attack EVs and Dragon Pulse as your only Attack? Calm Mind Kyogre will beat you in the end and you only get to phaze it out instead of defeating it one-on-one. At that point, you should use Grass Arceus, Ludicolo or Gastrodon. I agree with shrang here, Latias does NEED the power and coverage moves.

One more thing, for the Specially Defensive set, Kyogre can still 2HKO you with Specs Ice Beam, and any critical hit or freeze means you lose. 0 SpA Latias Dragon Pulse is never a 2HKO on max HP Kyogre. I know you can come in on it, and set up screens, then Roost but you might as well just use Grass Arceus/Gastrodon/Ludicolo for stalling out Kyogre.

I am fine with the stallbreaker set but please change the name to something else. It never breaks stall since Roar is the main option, shrang already said that. The weak initial power is still OK when you have Calm Mind, it lets you set up easier on things like Grass Arceus or Fighting Arceus. The beauty of this set, is that Latias can Calm Mind alongside things like Electric Arceus then Roar them out. Roar also lets Latias abuse Spikes to wear down foes like Ferrothorn. Since Spikes is common, Levitate is a big advantage over Arceus.

Support set is bad, Latias wants to hit back hard not sit there. Gastrodon, Grass Arceus, Ludicolo, Lugia, Giratina and Blissey all do the pure support thing better.

Agreeing with shrang, scrap SpD and the support sets. Latias does not need so many sets anyway.
Dual Screens is optional to me. It isn't really good but it does have some useful advantages over Cresselia.
 
Superimp's Response

Sorry about the length of the post. I did not want to double post.

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Here are my replies to Furai, shrang and trickroom.

Replying to Furai:
As of the moment, Substitute and Refresh are implemented into the AC of Offensive Pivot. Both the advantages and disadvantages of running such moves for Offensive Pivot will be mentioned (EX: Refresh against Gliscor, Offensive Pivot not reaching notable bulk benchmarks, loss of offensive coverage, etc.)

Genesect has been implemented into the Checks / Counters section. Thanks for the reminder Furai!

Concerning your points on the Support set, please check my comments in the next section.

For main EV spread concerns, please check my comments in the next, next section.

Your points on the Specially Defensive set are valid; they will be implemented into the SC.

Thanks for the input and feedback Furai!

Replying to shrang:
I am quite aware of your opinion on the validity of the Stallbreaker / Defensive Calm Mind set as seen from your previous post(s). However, unless you manage to convince the rest of QC that Stallbreaker / Defensive Calm Mind belongs in AC, it will remain a set. Currently, you are the only QC member who really has a problem with the set. Please check the previous posts / trickroom’s post / bulk benchmarks for some possible reasons on why you would run such a set if you are interested.

The aforementioned also applies to the Dual Screens set to some extent. Please take a look at some previously stated opinions:

I'd much rather say merge the Dual Screens Set and Wish set into a single Support set, I'm not seeing what the dual screen set is achieving over other screeners like Latios.
i think dual screens is pretty shit too, latias has better things to do (soul dew stuff)
Sure Latias can do dual screens but she is better off doing something nothing else can do. Latios is usually better with Dual Screens because Memento eases Baton Pass chains.
I agree with everything trickroom has said, you would not want to sacrifice Latias and keep switching around when you can actually do some damage.
Dual Screens is optional to me. It isn't really good but it does have some useful advantages over Cresselia.
It sadly can't do that unless its running Dual Screens, and it actually is a bit inferior to Latios at that role due to memento
Right now, it seems that everyone besides you either does not like the set, they are on the fence, or they tell me that it is optional. Unless you manage to convince the rest of QC that the Dual Screens set should be mentioned as a set, it is likely that it will remain in OO.

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Concerning your other points shrang, the Stallbreaker / Defensive Calm Mind set might benefit from a name change. As I previously told firecape, the name is currently a placeholder until something more appropriate is found. In light of the points made by both you and trickroom, perhaps "Defensive Calm Mind" was the better name after all. There is even some precedent for it as seen with Arceus-Water’s analysis.

As a note on CM Arceus-Dragon, while it is true that Arceus-Dragon has much better Physical Defense, Speed, and less weaknesses, Latias has some noticeable advantages such as Levitate, Soul Dew, ability to deal with Kyogre, other CM Arceus, etc., and much more. These advantages are just something to keep in mind.

Concerning the Support and Specially Defensive sets, please check my comments in the next section.

Thanks for your feedback and input shrang.

Replying to trickroom:
Your All-Out Attacker set suggestion has been accepted. The set seemed to work quite nicely in testing, and it appeals to those who want their Latias to be a hit-and-run attacker along with some fantastic special bulk. It is now the third set.

I see you noticed my Lucario mention trickroom. It was actually meant to be an interesting fact, as I found it a bit amusing on how 168 SpA EVs allows Draco Meteor to 2HKO Lucario. This is why I mentioned “coincidentally”. But rest assured that in the actual analysis, Lucario will not be mentioned.

You points on why it is not recommended for All-Out Attacker to run maximum SpA EVs are definitely valid. I agree with you - this is why the set does not actually run maximum SpA EVs.

Concerning main EV spread suggestions, please check my comments in the next, next section.

Regarding your points on the Support and Specially Defensive sets, please check my comments in the next section.

Concerning names, the Stallbreaker / Defensive Calm Mind set might benefit from a name change. As I previously told firecape and shrang, the name is just a placeholder until something more appropriate is found. In light of the points made by both you and shrang, perhaps “Defensive Calm Mind” was the better name after all. There is even some precedent for it as seen with Arceus-Water's analysis.

Thanks for all the feedback and input trickroom. I really appreciate the All-Out Attacker set suggestion too. It's a nice set – credits go to both you for the actual set and Colonel M for the inspiration!

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For those who wonder why the Support set was even considered, realize that it was an attempt to legitimize a possible blend between the Wish and Dual Screens set, both of which have not received enough positive QC feedback to justify their existence as a standalone set.

I'd much rather say merge the Dual Screens Set and Wish set into a single Support set, I'm not seeing what the dual screen set is achieving over other screeners like Latios.
With the suggestion of barry4ever in mind, I have tried to create a possible, viable Support set. Perhaps I have not put enough effort into crafting such a set. Nevertheless, my attempts have ultimately resulted in failure. As Furai, shrang, trickroom, and many others have pointed out, there seem to be too many problems with the Support set as it so stands. Members have noted that her Wishes are too small, that sacrificing her with Healing Wish is generally not worth it, that she is not using her offenses effectively, that she is unable to even Light Screen on Kyogre’s Modest Choice Specs Ice Beam after SR guaranteed, and much more. I myself through my own testing have found her performance to be overall underwhelming – I imagine she simply tries to be too many things at once, doing everything a bit ineffectively. It should come as no surprise that I'm currently leaning towards placing the Support set in OO where the Wish and Dual Screens set currently reside.

Concerning Specially Defensive Latias, this set is an attempt to broaden her options to appeal to as many Latias users as possible. Perhaps you might say this set challenges the paradigm that Latias should be "constrained" to the roles of offensive pivot, CM sweeping, or all-out attacking. That Latias has little need to run bulk. The truth is, there are so many differing opinions on what makes Latias Latias. Maybe you are someone like shrang, passionate supporter of the Offensive Pivot (and Dual Screens). Perhaps you are someone who really likes the Stallbreaker / Defensive Calm Mind like Manaphy. Maybe you are like trickroom, Hugendugen, or Poppy and don't mind using All-Out Attacker. Or maybe you just have completely different opinions on what the EV spreads should be like. Simply put, Latias has a different "flavor" for everybody. But doesn't this apply to Specially Defensive as well? When one can clearly see that some people might actually gravitate towards such a set according to Moveset analysis?

Throughout my testing, Specially Defensive Latias seemed to show more promise than the Support, Wish, or Dual Screens set. I'm probably not the most experienced user of a Specially Defensive Latias; I tend to use the Defensive Calm Mind and Offensive Pivot All-Out Attacker sets as I personally find them to be overall more useful for Latias. I'm not going to force down these opinions on everyone though, as I imagine many people see this as plain rude. However, based on my experience of actually using a Specially Defensive Latias, I can honestly tell you that the feats she can do are simply unrivaled. This set takes full advantage of the Soul Dew boost to perform tasks that are impossible for an offensively inclined Latias, or for that matter any Pokemon, to accomplish.

Please check this link to see some notable excerpts of actual testing (Besides the first log… I couldn't find anyone who spammed unboosted Ice Beam / Psystrikes after SR). These logs range from being possibly boring to outright insane. It is important to note that Latias can possibly do all these roles at the same time, even if you stack her field with every single entry hazard imaginable.

Specially Defensive Latias has titanic special bulk. She may not have the special bulk that Blissey, Chansey, or Multiscale Lugia can boast. But it is still respectable – this set has around 6.8% more special bulk than Specially Defensive Giratina while not even running maximum SpD investment (Not counting Leftovers). Combined with her resistances, this "thing" takes special hits very well. No other Latias set comes even close to how well this set deals with Choiced Kyogre. Moreover, Specially Defensive Latias counters ANY standard Kyogre variant (Including Thunder Wave; its Ice Beam is far too weak to overcome her defense). Although it is definitely true that CM Kyogre sets can be an issue when they are the last Pokemon, this set easily phazes them if they are not, can set up Light Screen to allow other teammates to deal with them more effectively, or simply get in first and spam Roar to rack up entry hazard damage. This set also remains reasonably fast – she still has enough Speed to outspeed any non-Choice Scarf neutral Base 90 or 95 Speed Pokemon depending on her EV spread.

There is one major problem with Specially Defensive Latias - her overall lack of offensive power. Even though an unboosted Dragon Pulse is not exactly weak, it is not exactly strong either. This means that Specially Defensive Latias can be detrimental to momentum if not used properly, while her offensive pressure is not exactly the best. Still, Latias has Light Screen and Roar. Oh, and anyone who dares to switch in a special response may be in for a rude awakening.

As the writer of this analysis, it is my intention to be as open-minded about all viable aspects of Latias as possible. If people happen to have a demand for a certain, viable aspect of Latias, then I imagine there is little reason for me to not test it. This can be seen when I tested the All-Out Attacker for trickroom (Accepted), or Reflect Type for Mr.lol indirectly (Sorry Mr.lol, I think that's AC for Defensive CM). This is the fundamental reason on why I'm really testing a Specially Defensive Latias - people seem to be using it, so I'm trying to find a possible, viable set for these people. All I'm really doing as the writer of this analysis is giving a bit of a "nudge"; the Smogon community will ultimately decide which sets will show up in the analysis.

Overall, I have found the Specially Defensive set to be reasonably useful through actual testing. In fact, I imagine this set might just have a place as an official set, giving a nice four set symmetry with the analysis of Latios for aesthetics (Brother/Sister theme). However, if you guys overall find the Specially Defensive set to "suck" after some of your own testing, then it will obviously be removed. In essence, I have the willingness to adapt your ideas to benefit the community as a whole, and will use this in combination with my own Uber metagame knowledge and testing to ensure that when the analysis is finally finished, it will be of the quality that Smogon is known for.

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It is from the continuation of this train of thought that perhaps the time has finally arrived to determine the ideal main EV spread for each set once and for all.

Here is a list of notable Kyogre bulk benchmarks that Latias can strive for:

[box]
  • 40 HP EVs Timid = Choice Specs Timid Ice Beam with SR is unable to 2HKO after a Reflect Type
  • 80 HP EVs Timid = Choice Scarf Modest Ice Beam is a guaranteed 3HKO [No SR]
    • Choice Specs Timid Water Spout (full power & rain) can never 2HKO after a Calm Mind [No SR]
  • 88 HP EVs Timid = Choice Scarf Modest (full power & rain) Water Spout is a guaranteed 3HKO after SR
  • 132 HP EVs Timid = Choice Scarf Timid Ice Beam is a guaranteed 3HKO after SR
  • 168 HP EVs Timid = Choice Specs Modest Ice Beam with SR is unable to 2HKO after a Reflect Type
  • 204 HP EVs Timid = Choice Specs Modest (full power & rain) Water Spout can never 2HKO after a Calm Mind [No SR]
  • 236 HP EVs Timid = Choice Specs Modest Ice Beam is unable to 2HKO through Light Screen [No SR]
  • 252 HP EVs Timid = Choice Scarf Modest Ice Beam is essentially a guaranteed 3HKO after SR.
    • Choice Specs Timid Ice Beam can never 2HKO after a Calm Mind [No SR]
  • 252 HP EVs & 12 SpD EVs Timid = Choice Specs Timid Water Spout (full power & rain) with SR can never 2HKO after a Calm Mind
  • 252 HP EVs & 16 SpD EVs Timid = Choice Scarf Modest Ice Beam is a guaranteed 3HKO after SR.

  • 252 HP EVs Calm = Choice Specs Modest Ice Beam can never 2HKO after a Calm Mind [No SR]
  • 252 HP EVs & 16 SpD EVs Calm = Choice Specs Modest (full power & rain) Water Spout with SR can never 2HKO after a Calm Mind
  • 252 HP EVs & 32 SpD EVs Calm = Choice Specs Modest Ice Beam with SR is unable to 2HKO through Light Screen
  • 252 HP EVs & 52 SpD EVs Calm = Choice Specs Timid Ice Beam with SR can never 2HKO after a Calm Mind
[/box]

Here is my current slate for possible main EV spreads:

[SCROLL=20]
CURRENT SLATE FOR MAIN EV SPREAD OF OFFENSIVE PIVOT:

  1. 48 HP / 208 SpA / 252 Spe Timid
    • 252 Spe = Speed tie other Speed boosting Base 110 Speed Pokemon
    • 208 SpA = Dragon Pulse without SR OHKOes standard Palkia guaranteed + maximizes Soul Dew boost (Which now guarantees against 4 SpD Palkia)
    • 48 HP = Remaining EVs go into bulk - doesn’t reach any notable benchmarks
  2. 60 HP / 208 SpA / 240 Spe Timid
    • 240 Spe = Outspeed non-Choice Scarf Jolly Terrakion
    • 208 SpA = Dragon Pulse without SR OHKOes standard Palkia guaranteed + maximizes Soul Dew boost (Which now guarantees against 4 SpD Palkia)
    • 60 HP = Remaining EVs go into bulk - doesn’t reach any notable benchmarks
  3. 100 HP / 216 SpA / 192 Spe Timid
    • 192 Spe = Outspeed non-Choice Scarf Jolly Garchomp
    • 216 SpA = Dragon Pulse without SR OHKOes standard (and others) Palkia guaranteed + maximizes Soul Dew boost
    • 100 HP = Remaining EVs go into bulk - benchmarks up to 88 HP EVs reached - ensures that SR damage is at a minimum like the other EV spreads
CURRENT SLATE FOR MAIN EV SPREAD OF DEFENSIVE CALM MIND:

  1. 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe Timid
    • 252 Spe = Speed tie other Speed boosting Base 110 Speed Pokemon
    • 252 HP = Greatest amount of overall bulk with greatest possible Speed - benchmarks up to 252 HP EVs reached
    • 4 Def = Remaining EVs go into Defense
  2. 216 HP / 40 SpA / 252 Spe Timid
    • 252 Spe = Speed tie other Speed boosting Base 110 Speed Pokemon
    • 40 SpA = Dragon Pulse with SR OHKOes standard Palkia guaranteed + maximizes Soul Dew boost
    • 216 HP = Remaining EVs go into bulk - benchmarks up to 204 HP EVs reached
  3. 252 HP / 40 SpA / 24 SpD / 192 Spe Timid
    • 192 Spe = Outspeed non-Choice Scarf Jolly Garchomp
    • 40 SpA = Dragon Pulse with SR OHKOes standard Palkia guaranteed + maximizes Soul Dew boost
    • 252 HP & 24 SpD = Remaining EVs go into bulk - benchmarks up to 252 HP EVs & 16 SpD EVs reached
CURRENT SLATE FOR MAIN EV SPREAD OF ALL-OUT ATTACKER:

  1. 88 HP / 168 SpA / 252 Spe Timid
    • 252 Spe = Speed tie other Speed boosting Base 110 Speed Pokemon
    • 88 HP = Bulk benchmarks up to 88 HP EVs reached
    • 168 SpA = Remaining EVs go into SpA to boost overall damage - Draco Meteor easily 2HKOes Specially Defensive Giratina without SR
  2. 100 HP / 164 SpA / 244 Spe Timid
    • 252 Spe = Outspeed positive base 108 Speed Pokemon like Garchomp
    • 164 SpA = Draco Meteor without SR 2HKOes Specially Defensive Giratina guaranteed, Grass Knot with 1 layer of Spikes OHKOes 252 HP Groudon guaranteed after -1 SpA IV drop, and maximizes Soul Dew boost
    • 164 HP = Remaining EVs go into bulk - bulk benchmarks up to 132 HP EVs reached - minimizes SR damage like the other EV spreads
  3. 164 HP / 152 SpA / 192 Spe Timid
    • 192 Spe = Outspeed non-Choice Scarf Jolly Garchomp
    • 152 SpA = Draco Meteor without SR 2HKOes Specially Defensive Giratina guaranteed, will always break Gliscor's Substitute at -6, and maximizes Soul Dew boost
    • 164 HP = Remaining EVs go into bulk - bulk benchmarks up to 132 HP EVs reached - minimizes SR damage like the other EV spreads
  4. 164 HP / 148 SpA / 196 Spe Timid
    • 196 Spe = Outspeed non-Choice Scarf Jolly Garchomp after -1 Spe IV drop
    • 148 SpA = Draco Meteor without SR 2HKOes Specially Defensive Giratina guaranteed after -1 SpA IV drop, and maximizes Soul Dew boost
    • 164 HP = Remaining EVs go into bulk - bulk benchmarks up to 132 HP EVs reached - minimizes SR damage like the other EV spreads
  5. 148 HP / 164 SpA / 196 Spe Timid
    • 196 Spe = Outspeed non-Choice Scarf Jolly Garchomp after -1 Spe IV drop
    • 164 SpA = Draco Meteor without SR 2HKOes Specially Defensive Giratina guaranteed, Grass Knot with 1 layer of Spikes OHKOes 252 HP Groudon guaranteed after -1 SpA IV drop, and maximizes Soul Dew boost
    • 148 HP = Remaining EVs go into bulk - bulk benchmarks up to 132 HP EVs reached - minimizes SR damage like the other EV spreads
CURRENT SLATE FOR MAIN EV SPREAD OF SPECIALLY DEFENSIVE:

  1. 252 HP / 12 Def / 148 SpD / 96 Spe Calm - Bulk Focus - Takes hits more effectively than the other EV spreads
  2. 252 HP / 24 SpA / 136 SpD / 96 Spe Calm - Special Attack Focus - Can now OHKO Rayquaza guaranteed without SR
  3. 252 HP / 120 SpD / 136 Spe Calm - Speed Focus - Can now outspeed non-Choice Scarf neutral Base 95 Speed Pokemon. Despite the loss in bulk, she can still take on Mewtwo, super effective CM Arceus, etc. without SR; more risky if you take them on with SR on her field.
[/SCROLL]

It would be really appreciated if you guys voiced your opinions on which options from the slate work best for each set. Feel free to justify your choice or possibly provide new viable EV spreads to go on the slate. Hopefully the benchmarks I provided should aid with your decision.

All your posts will be used to eventually decide the main EV spreads for each set. Just mention the set, the slate options you think fit best, possible justification, and then post/PM/VM/whatever! Even if your desired option from the slate is not chosen, it is very likely that it will show up in AC in some form or the other.

Everyone's input is welcomed! Choose the options that you feel are most optimal for Latias's performance, that you have found to work most effectively.

EDIT:

Regarding EV Spreads, I have received input from four members currently.
Furai - NOTE: QC
  • Offensive Pivot = 1.
  • Defensive Calm Mind = 2.
  • All-Out Attacker = 4.
  • Specially Defensive = 3.
Poppy - NOTE: QC
  • Offensive Pivot = 3.
  • Defensive Calm Mind = 1.
  • All-Out Attacker = 3. NOTE: Has not commented on 4. or 5.
  • Specially Defensive = 3.
trickroom - NOTE: QC

  • Offensive Pivot = 1.
  • Defensive Calm Mind = No Comment Yet (Assumed 2.)
  • All-Out Attacker = 4. (Assumed based on Post #30)
  • Specially Defensive = No Comment Yet
Superimp - NOTE: Self-explanatory

  • Offensive Pivot = 1.
  • Defensive Calm Mind = 1.
  • All-Out Attacker = 4.
  • Specially Defensive = 1. or 3. -> Interchangeable, but 3. preferred


Regarding Set Order, I have received input from six members currently.
Poppy - NOTE: QC

  1. All-Out Attacker
  2. Specially Defensive
  3. Defensive Calm Mind
  4. Offensive Pivot
Mr.lol - NOTE: Has tested all four sets personally.

  1. Specially Defensive
  2. Defensive Calm Mind
  3. All-Out Attacker
  4. Offensive Pivot
Furai - NOTE: QC

  1. All-Out Attacker
  2. Offensive Pivot
  3. Defensive Calm Mind
  4. Specially Defensive
shrang - NOTE: QC

  1. CM Latias
  2. All-Out Attacker
  3. Specially Defensive
trickroom - NOTE: QC

  1. CM Latias -> Interchangeable as 1 or 2
  2. All-Out Attacker -> Interchangeable as 1 or 2
  3. Specially Defensive
Superimp - NOTE: Self-explanatory

  1. All-Out Attacker
  2. Defensive Calm Mind
  3. Specially Defensive
  4. Offensive Pivot
SCORE: All-Out Attacker wins based on IRV method. Defensive Calm Mind is second place. Specially Defensive is third place. Offensive Pivot is last place.
 

His Eminence Lord Poppington II

proverb:the fish who eats most dies still too
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100 HP / 216 SpA / 192 Spe Timid
192 Spe = Outspeed non-Choice Scarf Jolly Garchomp
216 SpA = Dragon Pulse without SR OHKOes standard (and others) Palkia guaranteed + maximizes Soul Dew boost
100 HP = Remaining EVs go into bulk - benchmarks up to 88 HP EVs reached - ensures that SR damage is at a minimum like the other EV spreads

this is the best; latias shouldn't try and stay in on other latias, and the extra bulk is really needed. having a chance to be 2hkoed by modest scarf ice beam after sr (52 HP) is unacceptable.

164 HP / 152 SpA / 192 Spe Timid
192 Spe = Outspeed non-Choice Scarf Jolly Garchomp
152 SpA = Draco Meteor without SR 2HKOes Specially Defensive Giratina guaranteed & maximizes Soul Dew boost while also allowing...
164 HP = Remaining EVs go into bulk - bulk benchmarks up to 132 HP EVs reached - minimizes SR damage like the other EV spreads

similar reasons for speed tier and added bulk, i use something very similar to this.

i haven't used sdef so i will not comment (it's a waste :D)
 
I will agree with Poppy's All-out-Attacker spread. Latias works well without needing to go max Speed as long as you have another Latias counter such as Genesect/Ferrothorn.

192 Speed is a good bench mark and for the Draco Meteor set, use 160 HP / 152 SpA / 196 Spe because Hidden Power Fire should be the main slash. Getting rid of your usual counters in one hit is what makes All-out-Attacker Latias so special. Grass Knot or Thunder are both useful but Grass Knot pairs better with sun. 152 SpA is good enough for Latias and that bulk really helped when I tried it. That said, don't be mad and go with Modest lol.

For Calm Mind Offensive Latias, any spread can work but QC people ( Jibaku, shrang, barry, Furry ) agreed on max Speed. That will probably stay and just mention 192 Spe in AC.
 

His Eminence Lord Poppington II

proverb:the fish who eats most dies still too
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
changed my mind, specially defensive is pretty good (read the logs). having a good switch in to all cm arceus, deoxys-a and mewtwo, in addition to not fearing any kyogre except thunder wave is very cool indeed.

i've talked to superimp about the EVs for them on irc and he's going to see if he can come up with a spread that outspeeds rayquaza, as that is fairly important.

edit: I think QC members need to re-weigh in on the set order (preferably after some discussion on IRC) as it is at a highly contentious stage right now, furthermore this will also give us a good opportunity to discuss all the EV spreads. After exchanging words with superimp on irc today I think we have some serious talking to do.

As it stands my set order is

1. All-Out Attacker - Latias's primary objective is to check Kyogre and throw out powerful attacks, the prevalence of Genesect and Ferrothorn, especially the former, make it quite difficult to pull off a Calm Mind sweep, and usually (imo) Latias is better attacking off the bat; therefore, the set which packs the best blend of power, coverage, and bulk should be the first set. The offensive pivot is solidly 2HKOed by Ice Beam after Stealth Rock from Choice Scarf Kyogre, the defensive Calm Mind set doesn't have instant momentum, and the specially defensive set is in the same boat (while actually performing more roles than defensive Calm Mind...). Offensive pivot struggles with the use of just Dragon Pulse as its STAB, Palkia and Giratina-O require large amounts of investment to get guaranteed OHKOes, notably compromising Latias's excellent bulk, All-Out Attacker remedies this with the use of Draco Meteor, in sun Hidden Power Fire also crushes its conventional checks of Jirachi and Ferrothorn, although going toe-to-toe with Body Slam or Thunder Wave Jirachi is risky (Thunder is less so and actually quite a common move considering Jirachi is always used with rain). In rain Surf and Thunder both deal massive damage to overeager Genesect, and remove bulky Excadrill as a check entirely, as it is OHKOed by rain Surf.

The obvious downfalls are that mispredictions with Draco Meteor may lead you in an icky situation with a -2 Latias facing a set up sweeper, moreover in certain situations Latias will certainly wish it had the option to boost. However, situations in which Latias is facing a Choice Scarf Genesect or any of its checks that can still stop it despite boosting are far more common than the two I described above (the most threatening booster, DD Ray, still cannot set up on -2 Draco Meteor). As such, I believe All-Out Attacker to be the most useful in the situations it commonly finds itself in, i.e. VS a choice-locked Kyogre, i.e. I believe Latias values its ability to be instantly threatening more than its ability to boost in its most commonly encountered scenarios.

Also check out these calcs kindly provided by superimp for -2 Draco Meteor!

-2 168 SpA Timid Soul Dew Levitate Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Adamant Life Orb Air Lock Rayquaza : 308-366 (87.74 - 104.27%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
-2 168 SpA Timid Soul Dew Levitate Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hasty Choice Scarf Palkia : 246-290 (76.63 - 90.34%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
-2 168 SpA Timid Soul Dew Levitate Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Modest Choice Specs Turboblaze Reshiram : 246-290 (72.14 - 85.04%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
-2 168 SpA Timid Soul Dew Levitate Latias Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Jolly Choice Scarf Teravolt Zekrom : 288-338 (84.21 - 98.83%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
-2 168 SpA Timid Soul Dew Levitate Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Modest Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem-W : 284-336 (72.63 - 85.93%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
-2 168 SpA Timid Soul Dew Levitate Latias Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Choice Band Teravolt Zekrom : 288-338 (71.28 - 83.66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-2 168 SpA Timid Soul Dew Levitate Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Naughty Griseous Orb Levitate Giratina-O : 318-374 (72.1 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

So even moderately bulky Dragons looking to take advantage of a -2 Draco Meteor by pivoting back in after switching to a resist can still be met by a nasty surprise.

All-Out Attacker provides the best blend of bulk and power, which I think should be Latias's primary objectives.

2. Specially Defensive - Why no.2? Because I believe that All-Out Attacker is the best Latias set that focuses on its commonly seen goals, attacking and defending. This set, however, checks and counters Pokemon that all the other sets fail to do, giving it a really fucking cool niche and excellent utility. Essentially, I view Defensive Calm Mind and Offensive Pivot as inferior versions of All-Out Attacker in most regards, despite obviously having the potential to boost Genesect can still stop your sweep at any time.

3. Defensive Calm Mind - Outside of Genesect and Ferrothorn the most common way to deal with Latias is to Toxic it, giving this set a distinct niche in outright sweeping teams that rely on Toxic Skarmory or Forretress to deal with Latias.

4. Offensive Pivot - Yes, last set. Poor bulk, good power, but outdone by All-Out Attacker imo. Can sweep very occasionally, but conventional Latias checks Genesect, Ferrothorn, and Jirachi still beat it more often than not. Taking that into account it has less utility than set no.1, having lower bulk and less coverage.

I know both CM sets have a niche as pretty much beating everything else except Mewtwo in a Calm Mind war, but Specially Defensive does that too, and more. Switching into many CM Arceus with the offensive pivot to engage in a CM war is quite risky, and the opposite happening is just straight up retardation on the opponent's part.

This isn't set in stone and I am more than welcoming to anyone wanting to change my mind.
 

polop

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Ok so I finally finished testing all these Latias tests out !_!. Sorry if this is a little late. I'm no QC member but I would appreciate it if QC and Superimp take my opinions with a grain of salt please :P.

I primarily agree with Poppy's ideas on setting however I would like to add some information. I personally feel that Specially Defensive should be set 1. Defensive Calm Mind set 2. All-out attacker set 3. and Offensive Calm Mind set 4.

I probably require reasoning for my ideas, and here they are. Firstly, Specially Defensive is the only set that counters all Kyogre variants, regardless of the set they run. It is the ONLY POKEMON that can switch into all of Specs Kyogres moves. Light Screen turn 2, then Roost the damage off. It beats CM Kyogre by Roaring it out. Even Thunder Wave Ogre can't stop it from doing its job. This things job is being a Kyogre switch-in, but it fails at doing that if it gets 2HKOed by Specs Ice Beam right? Also to all people that say it gets beat up by Mewtwo...

Mewtwo +1 Ice Beam vs. Superimp's Sp def Latias -> (54.39 - 64.28%). Light Screen prevents 2HKO with no SR all the time, and prevents 2HKO with SR sometimes.
Psystrike does marginally worse x_x: 54.12 - 63.73. Same result as Ice Beam though. Set up Light Screen, Recover for a few turns / wait until it realizes it needs a Calm Mind to do something, and ROAR. OR you can be gutsy and switch to genesect (lol) :P.

Defensive CM is set two because it can not only 2HKO Gene assuming it takes two SR switch-ins. It beats Specs Kyogre using Ice Beam (I will admit I did transfer a few Speed EVs though). When you get to the other two sets you loose that ability and besides there's something really annoying that annoyed me about the all-out attacker set...

All Out Attacker Set: OK I know Draco Meteor is strong but Extremekiller Arceus keep on setting up on me after I use it ;_;. I know Draco Meteor was the whole reason the set was made but thats really why I put it in set 3. Besides Specs Kyogre's Water Spout takes a grand 55.41 - 65.32% out of its HP. This practically forces it to Thunder but I've never had a Kyogre stay in on the Thunder, then your forced into a mindgame as to whether or not you should Recover or Thunder. Is a check to a Pokemon SUPPOSED to have a mindgame as to how its supposed to check something else? I know its not supposed to be played like a Gastrodon and more of an offensive pivot but I like playing with it like a Gastrodon like the earlier sets play with it x_x.

Offensive CM: Same thing as all-out attacker except Arceus no longer abuse me for setup. I would list it as superior to All-out Attacker except I got setup on a ferrothorn during my tests and I was annoyed and started hating this thing. At least All-out attacker has HP Fire... That and has everyone forgotten how common / annoying Ferrothorn + Kyogre core is?

Of course these are my own (biased) opinions that I got after testing. I'm completely welcome to other opinions :P.
 

Furai

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I definitely agree with Poppy's order. After using All-out Attacker in the suspect testing, I'm really impressed. It's far better than the Offensive Pivot: its bulkier, it hits harder, it has coverage. Also, Grass Knot > Thunder please. Its much better to snipe Groudon and friends with one shot without lowering your Special Attack. 2HKOing Tyranitar in Sand is also amazing, and Kyogre loses like two-thirds of its health anyway and can't really do anything back. As for the EKiller fodder, well, you must have a counter for it, otherwise you deserve to lose.

Ever since you showed me the battle examples I've fallen in love with Specially Defensive Latias. The utility it brings is so helpful, it covers many special threats, and it can counter all Kyogre sets effectively. Despite its offensive prowess, I agree with Poppy on #2, but I disagree with Mr.lol on #1; it just loses too much Offensive momentum, which can be huge, to be #1.
 

shrang

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Okay, I've given this a long consideration and this is what I came up with.

1) Merge the two Calm Mind sets - Now, don't get me wrong, this is a slightly different approach to what I was originally planning (which was ditch the defensive CM set). What I'm proposing is we do something similar to what I've done for the OU revamp. We turn the two Calm Mind sets into one big universal "Calm Mind" set, neither explicitly offensive nor defensive. As for the EVs, I reckon that they should probably be more defensively inclined as she is supposed to check Kyogre, which is important. If you don't know what I mean, I suggest having a look at my OU revamp to have a feel of the structure I'm talking about. I think something like:

[SET]
name: Classic
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Roost
move 3: Dragon Pulse
move 4: Thunder / Psyshock / Roar
item: Soul Dew
ability: Levitate
nature: Timid
evs: 212 HP / 44 SpA / 252 Spe

- This spread lets Latias function a lot more defensively, while still retaining the ability to OHKO Palkia after Stealth Rock. Max Speed is too important to give up, IMO.
- Have multiple AC paragraphs that go into detail about Latias' other moves (Substitute and Refresh). This way, we give offensive and defensive Latias equal weighting. You have a defensively oriented EV spread, but still with the ability to go offensive.
- In terms of moves: I do think Thunder is the best option, as it allows you to deal more damage to Kyogre and Manaphy, as well as not being a free Genesect switch-in (It's an easy 2HKO, so Genesect can only switch-in once). Psyshock is probably slightly less useful, although it does let you beat more Calm Mind users. Roar is more of a support move to allude to the defensive set, but again, it lets you beat other Calm Mind users.

2) Set order: Calm Mind (refurbished) > All Out Attacker > Specially Defensive
- I personally think putting Calm Mind down the bottom is blasphemy. The reason you use Latias is the fact that she is defensive, but she can still sweep. This is what sets her apart from stuff like Grass Arceus, Gastrodon and other more specialised Kyogre checks. With Thunder being the main move, she is a lot more dangerous as stuff like Skarmory and stuff can't set up on her any more. She also checks a greater range of Pokemon with the Calm Mind set as well. Unlike the other two sets, Calm Mind totals every variant of Kyogre apart from probably Thunder Wave (which they all get annoyed by).
- All-Out Attacker and Specially Defensive cannot beat stuff like last mon Calm Mind Kyogre and things like that, which make them less viable.
- I'll give Specially Defensive the benefit of the doubt, but like I said, it cannot counter all Kyogre variants. Any Kyogre that can't be Roared out (ie last mons) will beat you easily. Even just Calm Mind + 3 attacks with Leftovers would beat you if he's the last mon because you don't even have Toxic. The set ONLY excels at beating Choiced Kyogres, which with BW2, have become more and more rare because of Latias' rise, instead opting for stuff like Thunder Wave + 3 attacks, RestTalk and in the current metagame, Sheer Cold variants (which you REALLY want to kill quickly so they can't spam that move and eventually catch you). It's also offensively dead weight.
 
I will generally say Calm Mind as the first set because it fits the best in stall based teams. Calm Mind is needed to beat things like Calm Mind Fighting/Grass Arceus, Calm Mind Kyogre ( Roaring is not countering just check ) and Manaphy.

Calm Mind > All-Out-Attacker > Specially Defensive

Merging both Calm Mind sets is fine by me and Latias works the same anyway. The EVs can be changed to fit your team's needs but shrang's spread looks fine. Max Speed for the Calm Mind set for speed tie at least, with 212 HP EVs, Kyogre is not 2HKOing you without Specs, so you have plenty of time to Calm Mind up and retaliate. Genesect does not enjoy taking Thunders at all so it can't switch in that freely.

Specially Defensive can have its own set since most agree now but it should be the last set. Removing Latias's offenses is the last thing you want to do most of the time because that is what shits like Gastrodon do. Latias still has a lot of massive advantages so Specially Defensive deserves a set but mention you no longer check Lustrous Orb/Specs Palkia because they outspeed and 2HKO you first.

Both Calm Mind and All-out-Attacker has their advantages, the order isn't that important anyway. Specially Defensive should remain at the bottom though because it is a rare set.

Lastly, give Tailwind a mention, mr.Lol has a point about Lati twins using Tailwind to great effect thanks to their bulk and power.
 

His Eminence Lord Poppington II

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well psyshock still beats cm fightceus, and cm grass arceus and cm kyogre are really rare, although that doesn't invalidate your point of course (manaphy is even rarer). i don't know i just see all out attacker as more useful in more commonly encountered situations. i guess cm is a better failsafe xD
 

Furai

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please mention Refresh in AC of merged Calm Mind set i'm madly in love with it it beats gliscor which can be a total pain for sun teams :)
 
The order of set isn't important just put either Calm Mind or All-Out-Attacker first. You can write up the Specially Defensive set now, it is accepted. Merge the 2 Calm Mind sets into 1, the one in shrang's post because they are extremely similar.
 
Here are my current thoughts on Latias. Do not be surprised if some of the points made in this post make their way into the analysis (Which I have made significant progress over the course of last week). Please note that I might have missed something while writing this.

NOTES OF SUPERIMP REGARDING A POSSIBLE CM SET MERGE
Although the idea of a possible CM merge does sound intriguing, such an approach may be far more limiting than one might expect - we have to look at the context.

Take a look at the rejected Support set. Now take a look at the proposed CM merge. Any possible problems?

By merging two sets into a set that is neither explicitly defensive nor offensive, it seems to be trying to do too much at a time whereas splitting the sets might possibly have been more effective. There does exist a line between trying to put too many ideas into one set however fine it may be. Take a look at what Cherub Agent has to say:

Defensive and Swords Dance probably could be moved into one set: Tank. However, so many moves are theoretically perfectly viable for such a set (EQ, Taunt, Roost, Toxic, U-Turn, Facade, Stealth Rock, Protect, Ice Fang, Swords Dance, etc) that it'd simply have too many slashes. I mean theoretically it could work, but I'd rather keep SD separate, if only for aesthetic reasons.
While both sets are capable of using each other's auxiliary moves (EX: Refresh, Roar, Substitute, Thunder, Psyshock, etc.) to a certain extent, different auxiliary moves correspond to a different playstyle/purpose. Jamming too many moves and options onto one set is not only confusing for the reader, but also restricts many options that might have possibly been better. For instance, with those current proposed EVs, Thunder fails to 2HKO Scizor and Forretress after SR, a feat that the
old, more specialized Offensive Pivot set could do. You could possibly write multiple sections in AC, but that brings us to the main point; while it’s not that bad of an idea, it crams too much information, options, and playstyles into one set that could have been very easily expanded into two separate sets. PK Gaming’s quote comes to mind:

We decided to split Swords Dance 2 different sets. We didn't like the idea of shoving multiple playstyles into a single set, so we decided to create a new set, SubSD.
Latias is an incredibly versatile Pokemon. People have so many different opinions on what makes Latias Latias - just check the variation in EV spreads as an example! But with so many move choices (that are perfectly viable as slashes in their own right, like Refresh and Substitute - maybe even Reflect Type on Defensive CM), playstyle differences, EV spreads, etc., is it
really realistic to jam all this stuff into a single CM set?

Remember, merging an offensive playstyle with a defensive playstyle is very different from merging a balanced playstyle with a defensive playstyle as seen in the Latias OU revamp:

Necturna analysis[/URL] (Yes, that analysis).

Notice how many "splits" there have been. Mixed Shell Smash, Physical Shell Smash, Quiver Dance, Substitute + Quiver Dance, CM + 3 Attacks, CM + Recover... Do you approve of these splits? Or would you rather have kept them merged?

I should really have done that ages ago. All of those sets were basically describing two sets in one. Now it looks a lot cleaner. A bit. Probably.
Apply the same principle to CM Latias. Is the decision to keep them "split" right? Or would you rather have them merged?


-------------

By keeping the Offensive Pivot and Defensive Calm Mind sets split, I will be able to focus on each respective playstyle in appreciable detail and focus, while still having a readable length -> this I imagine is quite important. Of course, this would probably get the analysis up faster too as I have already written these sections; merging would take more time.

Right now, only shrang and trickroom are actively and explicitly in support of such a merge, so they will stay split for the time being. That being said, if you guys overall come to the consensus that the CM sets should be merged, then I would be more than willing to take the sufficient time and energy to merge the sets.
NOTES OF SUPERIMP REGARDING THE SETS OF LATIAS
DISCLAIMER: THE ORDER OF MY DISCUSSION DOES NOT REFLECT MY CURRENT OPINION ON SET ORDER

1. OFFENSIVE PIVOT
Although Offensive Pivot does not grab the greatest initial momentum (That distinction goes to All-Out Attacker), she has the potential to grab the most momentum due to Calm Mind.

What Offensive Pivot excels in is the ability to switch into a multitude of threats and immediately place offensive pressure in the form of either a possible CM or attack thanks to her invested Special Attack / Speed. The at least 208 SpA investment from Offensive Pivot is significantly more powerful than the at most 40 SpA investment from Defensive Calm Mind, which makes a huge difference in her overall offensive power (EX: Thunder + SR 2HKOes Scizor using >208 SpA EVs). For more information, check Honko’s “One VS All” Calculator and compare how different 208 SpA is with 40 SpA. This is why Offensive Pivot is better geared towards using a coverage move (Thunder, Psyshock, etc.) than Defensive Calm Mind - the SpA investment is critical for using these coverage moves to their highest potential. Defensive Calm Mind cannot afford to heavily invest in SpA because of her need for bulk (EX: Necessary when up against stuff like Kyogre - see benchmarks); this is no problem for the specialized Offensive Pivot as she de-emphasizes bulk.

Remember, all the coverage moves of All-Out Attacker are slightly weaker than the (lone) coverage move of Offensive Pivot; the only attack that All-Out Attacker has that overpowers Offensive Pivot is Draco Meteor, which conveniently has a -2 SpA drop. After a single Calm Mind, Offensive Pivot is capable of dealing more damage to the opponent than any other Latias set, while also giving her the potential to possibly sweep.

Unfortunately, the largest problem of Offensive Pivot is her initial bulk. Although having special bulk slightly better than Support Arceus-Grass is excellent in its own right, it’s a bit inadequate against Kyogre. Most notably, Choice Scarf Ice Beam is an almost guaranteed 2HKO after SR. This is a serious problem for an offensive/any team, as a Latias caught on the switch will hamper the team’s momentum when she is forced to switch out. This problem is also seen with Choice Specs Kyogre, as Offensive Pivot is forced into a mindgame after switching into a full power Water Spout - either attack or Roost (Unable to CM due to the sheer power of Water Spout against inadequate bulk - see benchmarks). Choice Specs Ice Beam is incredibly one-sided; Latias stands no chance. And of course, Thunder Wave Kyogre is detrimental to Offensive Pivot’s purpose. Essentially, the lack of bulk really hurts her viability on teams with a more defensive focus or possibly even balanced.

This “lack of balance” problem is only increased by the development of the All-Out Attacker. This set not only has greater coverage and hits harder thanks to Draco Meteor, but has much more bulk, allowing her to fit on a wider range of teams than Offensive Pivot. More importantly, All-Out Attacker can at least switch into Choice Scarf Ice Beam after SR somewhat reasonably. Although Offensive Pivot does have Calm Mind for possible sweeping (and checking some CM sweepers), her offensive pressure doesn't immediate drain after the use of a Dragon-type STAB (doesn’t leave her as vulnerable to many common set up sweepers), has greater Speed, and has a slightly stronger (lone) coverage move, these advantages are offset by the reality of the Uber metagame - Latias has numerous checks like Ferrothorn, Excadrill, etc. that are going to stop her regardless of these advantages if she lacks the right coverage move. One of her advantages, the checking of CM sweepers, also isn’t entirely justifiable either because Offensive Pivot unfortunately lacks the bulk to safely take on many CM sweepers besides Pokemon like Kyogre (I’ll be investigating this issue in more detail here to get to the bottom of this). And of course, many of Offensive Pivot’s advantages are seriously hurt by a certain Pokemon - Genesect.

Genesect is a serious development in the viability of Offensive Pivot. As long as Genesect remains active, any possible CM (or sweep) is rendered useless against a boosted U-turn, which ruins the possibility of Offensive Pivot sweeping. In light of its rising prominence, Thunder may actually be the superior first slash over Psyshock due to its ability to deal at least 62.19% and possible Paralysis to Genesect; I may possibly switch the slash order to Thunder / Psyshock (AKA shrang’s slash order) despite the loss of Psyshock benefits.

Regarding EV spreads, I imagine I have already explained my thoughts in previous posts (and maybe some implications in this post). Anyway, here’s my vote -> 48 HP / 208 SpA / 252 Spe Timid.


2. DEFENSIVE CALM MIND
Despite similarities in Calm Mind, Roost, and Dragon Pulse, Defensive Calm Mind plays very differently from Offensive Pivot. Their contrasting emphasis on bulk and attack investment is just one major factor; their last moveslot and ultimate goal/design also play a critical role in differentiating the aforementioned sets. As such, an attempt to use her as a “bulky Offensive Pivot” is not using her to her maximum potential; Defensive Calm Mind shines when she is used strategically for long-term benefit.

In the Uber metagame, only clever, bold, and strategic play can maximize her chances of a sweep - she has too many checks that can possibly stop her. Giving her a lone coverage move is not really an option; as Offensive Pivot shows, she will always have a coverage problem against certain checks. This is unacceptable for a set geared towards maximizing the chance of a possible sweep. Thus, the only way for Latias to truly sweep is by backing away from offensive coverage and focusing on her non-attacking options. And this is where Roar, Refresh, Substitute, and etc. come in; they provide the means to the end.

Roar can be used to phaze opposing CM sweepers that try to CM alongside her as well as eventually weakening her checks (through entry hazard damage and strategic use) to the point where she can safely sweep. Refresh, a more direct option, can be used to eliminate detrimental Status such as Toxic and Paralysis, crushing teams that depend solely on it to defeat last-Pokemon Latias. Substitute provides status protection, scouts, and allows Latias to set up on Pokemon like Ferrothorn. Clearly, these moves are entirely lacking in the offensive pressure department; instead they provide more options for Latias to wear down the opponent.

Although Roar / Refresh / Substitute can be run on Offensive Pivot to some extent (such as Refresh healing Status should she come across threats like Gliscor), it does not play to Offensive Pivot’s strengths; these moves are far better off being run on Defensive Calm Mind. Such moves take away from coverage considerably; this is horrible for Offensive Pivot since one of her few advantages over All-Out Attacker is that she has a stronger (lone) coverage move. As stated before, Roar / Refresh / Substitute are also lacking of any offensive pressure; this is entirely counterproductive to a set that is supposed to focus on offense (Offensive Pivot would rather not waste her heavily invested Special Attack; she does not want a “lesser” offensive pressure). As a result, by running such moves, you are leaving Offensive Pivot little more than a Latias with a heavily invested Dragon Pulse with inadequate bulk and no coverage move; you’re not playing to her strengths. Defensive Calm Mind is far better suited for these moves because unlike Offensive Pivot, she actually has sufficient bulk. This makes a huge difference for using them effectively (EX: Take hits better when using Roar / Refresh, Substitute bulkier, etc.). In addition, since Defensive Calm Mind unlike Offensive Pivot de-emphasizes initial offensive pressure, she can actually afford to be more liberal in their usage.

As alluded to earlier, Defensive Calm Mind obviously has more emphasis in bulk when compared to Offensive Pivot. Conversely, she has less emphasis in attack (and coverage) when compared to Offensive Pivot. This difference provides both advantages and disadvantages.

Thanks to her larger emphasis on bulk, Defensive Calm Mind is far better suited than Offensive Pivot (and All-Out Attacker) for one of Latias’s main purposes (albeit a secondary purpose for this set) - being a very good answer to Kyogre. Unlike the aforementioned sets, Defensive Calm Mind is capable of safely switching into Kyogre’s Choice Scarf Ice Beam after SR virtually guaranteed. This is significant as Kyogre’s most popular set is Choice Scarf. Defensive Calm Mind can also deal with CM Kyogre quite well, though the lack of Thunder / Psyshock possibly makes this task a bit more cumbersome than Offensive Pivot (I’ll be investigating this issue in more detail here to get to the bottom of this).

The greater bulk is not only helpful against Kyogre, but in other aspects too. Obviously, her increased bulk allows her to check/counter stuff that Offensive Pivot simply cannot do due to inadequate bulk (EX: CM Arceus-Electric after SR). But it also helps considerably in actually setting up Calm Minds on a wide variety of threats, switching into attacks, and of course using Roar / Refresh / Substitute to their maximum potential.

However, her investment in bulk leaves a deficiency in her offense, a problem augmented by her lack of coverage. This leaves her initial offensive pressure quite poor in comparison with Offensive Pivot - she doesn’t grab momentum nearly as easy. It also means that Defensive Calm Mind needs to find the right time to set up Calm Minds so that she can have as much of an offensive impact as Offensive Pivot. It is because of this that treating her like a “bulky Offensive Pivot” is not using her to her maximum potential. Do not expect immediate results like Offensive Pivot, All-Out Attacker, or Specially Defensive; a little patience is required.

Defensive Calm Mind does not attempt to sweep immediately - this is her long-term goal. Rather, this set focuses on disruption and weakening the team in the short-term - this is the secondary purpose of Defensive Calm Mind. Her set is thus specialized to endure, to outlast the opponent. In other words, she doesn’t even bother trying to sweep at an early stage (EX: Genesect will easily stop her); she just focuses on coming in and wearing the opponent down with Roar / Substitute, or keeping her Status healthy with Refresh so that she herself doesn’t get worn down. As such, lots of entry hazard support is necessary for the success of this set (She forces A LOT of switches) - this is why Defensive Calm Mind is best suited for teams like stall, Spikes-shuffling, etc.

It is importantly to realize that although her initial offensive pressure is weak, her access to CM allows her to increase her offensive pressure so that she snowballs into an unstoppable force. If played right, coverage should be unnecessary for her sweep. Thus, only when the time is right, when the enemy is sufficient weakened by Roar/Substitute, has only status to deal with Latias for Refresh, has only “threatening” CM sweepers that can get Roared out when she CMs, etc., does Latias come in to finally sweep. Remember, it’s fine to focus on the present when using Defensive Calm Mind, but never lose sight of the bigger picture.

Defensive Calm Mind has by far the greatest potential of sweeping for all Latias sets. Where other sets fail, Defensive Calm Mind succeeds. It may take some patience and long-term thinking (And yes, Genesect just like Offensive Pivot reduces her viability, though Substitute / Roar / extra bulk really helps), but the results can be very rewarding. And this is why Defensive Calm Mind is so great; she functions as a great check/counter to a considerable amount of Pokemon in the short-term while weakening teams/disrupting, while at the same time working towards the ultimate long-term goal - a possible game-defining sweep.

Unfortunately, despite Defensive Calm Mind’s bulk advantage over All-Out Attacker and Offensive Pivot, she still falls prey to the annoyance of Thunder Wave Kyogre (If no Refresh) and the Choice Specs Kyogre mindgame. Though Kyogre’s Choice Specs Water Spout is now somewhat manageable (More options - can attack with Dragon Pulse, at least attempt to Roost stall if she doesn’t want to risk attacking, takes less damage than All-Out Attacker & Offensive Pivot, etc.), Kyogre’s Choice Specs Ice Beam is still too powerful for Latias to handle. However, an option does exist which can allow Defensive Calm Mind to safely switch into Ice Beam providing she carries at least 168 HP EVs.

Reflect Type is quite the interesting move. It alongside Light Screen provides the only possible method of which Latias can safely switch into Kyogre’s Choice Specs Ice Beam after SR (Providing they have adequate bulk - see benchmarks). This alone cements Reflect Type into the “Defensive Calm Mind only” section. Offensive Pivot is unable to use it effectively as she loses coverage, has inadequate bulk, and hates the possibility of losing STAB on an heavily invested Dragon Pulse (Counterproductive). Specially Defensive isn’t even going to touch it due to her usage of Light Screen instead, and All-Out Attacker should hopefully be self-explanatory. By carrying Reflect Type, Defensive Calm Mind has a performance almost as good as Specially Defensive Latias; whereas Specially Defensive Latias performs better against Choiced variants and Thunder Wave, Defensive Calm Mind Latias performs better against last-Pokemon CM Kyogre. However, Reflect Type has many others uses too.

Reflect Type completely changes her checks. Tyranitar is now unable to Pursuit / Crunch Latias into oblivion, allowing her to easily switch out. A Scizor and Genesect switch-in will find their U-turns/Pursuit ineffective, and instead grant momentum to the Latias player. Ferrothorn will find its Leech Seed and attacks useless, leaving it vulnerable as CM bait. Simply put, Reflect Type takes advantage of the opponent’s typing for Latias’s benefit.

However, Reflect Type is a situational move. It’s complete deadweight against any team that does not have a Pokemon which Latias can benefit from (EX: Kyogre, Tyranitar, Scizor, Ferrothorn, Genesect, Dialga, etc.) - here Roar / Refresh / Substitute would be far more useful. It can also backfire horribly if used improperly; once Reflect Type has been revealed, it can be easily played around. For example, perhaps Arceus-Electric can take advantage of Latias’s Water-type change after she Reflect Type-ed Kyogre. Or perhaps that same Kyogre that just got Reflect Type-ed can actually come in later (VIA something like Genesect U-turn) and Thunder Latias - AKA Choice Specs Kyogre is checking Latias, which really shouldn’t be happening. Nevertheless, one thing stays consistent - Latias will be able to switch into Kyogre’s Choice Specs Ice Beam safely, which alone merits it at least an AC mention.

Regarding EV spread, my choice would be the one that plays to Defensive Calm Mind’s strengths. As such, I would probably vote for the spread that gives the most Speed along with as much bulk as possible -> 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe Timid. I would rather take the increase in bulk over a guaranteed OHKO on Palkia after SR (Which is already 81.25% with no SpA investment), as this increase in bulk makes it far easier to deal with Kyogre, set up Calm Minds, use Roar / Refresh / Substitute / Reflect Type more effectively, and more. It’s not like Latias is in fear of non-Outrage Palkia anyway.


3. ALL-OUT ATTACKER
As one might expect from the name, All-Out Attacker has an emphasis on offense. Yet even though this set might seem to be more offensive than the Offensive Pivot set through greater coverage and Draco Meteor, in actuality the All-Out Attacker is a much more balanced option.

One of the greatest advantages of using All-Out Attacker is her ability to grab the greatest initial momentum out of all Latias sets. Thanks to the immediate power of Draco Meteor as well as great coverage, All-Out Attacker places the greatest amount of initial offensive pressure onto the opponent. The extra coverage moves are also very helpful against Latias’s numerous checks (EX: Ferrothorn).

All-Out Attacker is easy to use. It’s quite straightforward; simply find an opportunity to switch in, decide whether to attack or Roost, and then switch out if the situation turns undesirable. No longer does she have to decide whether or not to Calm Mind in light of Pokemon like Genesect; just do her business and switch out.

But it is the balance between power and bulk that really makes All-Out Attacker stand out. Thanks to Draco Meteor’s greater base power over Dragon Pulse (and the -2 SpA drop...), All-Out Attacker unlike Offensive Pivot has the luxury to focus less on Special Attack and Speed, and focus more on her bulk. In terms of balance, All-Out Attacker hits harder than Offensive Pivot when using Draco Meteor, has significantly more bulk so that she can at least switch into Choice Scarf Kyogre’s Ice Beam after SR somewhat comfortably, and still have enough Speed to outspeed Garchomp. Although she has the same Choice Specs Kyogre mindgame as Offensive Pivot, All-Out Attacker at least takes less damage and has more coverage options to choose from. In summary, despite a slight lean to offense, All-Out Attacker can fit on a wide range of teams - offensive, defensive, balanced, etc.

Yet all these great advantages come with a price. As many other members such as Mr.lol have noted, once All-Out Attacker Latias has unleashed a Draco Meteor, her once impressive offensive pressure plummets. Although many threatening Dragon-types are still unable to switch in (EX: DD Rayquaza), dangerous setup sweepers such as Extreme Killer, CM Arceus, and more can take advantage of her greatly reduced offense. This is especially problematic against CM Kyogre as All-Out Attacker Latias lacks the power to overcome the bulk of Kyogre after a CM - this isn’t exactly great.

Luckily, All-Out Attacker has multiple options to overcome these deficiencies. Should the player desire an easy way to overcome these CM sweepers, Psych Up provides an answer. This not only allows All-Out Attacker to easily defeat any CM Kyogre, but it also “recharges” Draco Meteor for reuse. It goes well with Psyshock too if you want to defeat CM Arceus formes more reliably. Still, it’s likely that Psych Up will remain in AC, as it cuts into much desired coverage (One of All-Out Attacker’s major advantages) and is situational.

Of course, Latias can run teammates to patch these problems up. In fact, All-Out Attacker probably requires the most team support out of any Latias set (Dangerous set up sweepers). This doesn’t really mean much though as players will likely have ways to deal with dangerous set up sweepers regardless of Latias (EX: Every team has a check/counter to Extreme Killer). However, players who use All-Out Attacker will definitely require a backup CM Kyogre check (EX: Ferrothorn) should she lack Psych Up.

Another issue with All-Out Attacker is that unlike the CM sets, All-Out Attacker has no method of boosting her offenses (With the exception of the situational Psych Up). However, All-Out Attacker can still possibly sweep using her weather dependent coverage should the opponent’s team be sufficiently weakened (Nowhere near as easy as Defensive Calm Mind (or even Offensive Pivot), but still a possibility).

Personally, I found Surf / Thunder to be far better at blasting holes through teams than Grass Knot / Hidden Power Fire due to their "superior" coverage and how Surf has a higher base power than Hidden Power Fire. However, I found Grass Knot / Hidden Power Fire to be far better with dealing with specific threats/checks (EX: Ferrothorn), though admittedly Thunder > Grass Knot for Manaphy. I do not particularly care which one gets slashed first as they’re all weather dependent options, but do keep in mind that rain has more usage than sun. I’ll be following general consensus on this matter (Which currently seems to be the sun focus).

Regarding EV spreads, my choice would be a balance between bulk and power, as this is critical for making All-Out Attacker stand out. As such, I would probably vote for 164 HP / 152 SpA / 192 Spe Timid concerning a rain focused spread. For a sun focused spread (Read: This is my vote), I would probably go with 164 HP / 148 SpA / 196 Spe Timid. However, 148 HP / 164 SpA / 196 Spe Timid works too, as the additional SpA ensures a Grass Knot OHKO on Groudon after one layer of Spikes - I’ll let you guys decide.


4. SPECIALLY DEFENSIVE
If there is one thing I have learned from my limited usage of Specially Defensive Latias (I don’t use her nearly as much as All-Out Attacker / Defensive Calm Mind), it is that her special bulk is titanic. No other Latias set even compares with the sheer number of things that Specially Defensive Latias can check/counter. In fact, if I were to describe this set in one word, it would probably be “utility.”

Specially Defensive Latias has all the same great benefits the other Latias have regarding their check/counter utility, and then some extra. This is because whereas the other Latias sets place more of an emphasis on Speed, Specially Defensive Latias places more on special bulk.

For instance, all Latias sets besides the All-Out Attacker (Speed tie) are capable of safely switching into an All-Out Attacker Latias coverage move (EX: Grass Knot, Hidden Power Fire, etc.) after SR and then forcing her out. The CM sets survive by Calm Minding before the Draco Meteor. However, the Specially Defensive set survives by tanking the Draco Meteor guaranteed and then Roosting. Same result, different approach. This same principle can also be applied to other scenarios, such as Palkia (EX: Survives a Lustrous Orb rain Hydro Pump + SR, subsequent Lustrous Orb Spacial Rend, and then retaliates right back with a Dragon Pulse most of the time. Specially Defensive Latias is actually the best Latias against Choice Specs Palkia since unlike the other Latias sets, she doesn’t get OHKOed by Spacial Rend after SR on the switch-in (Or possibly even Draco Meteor without SR...), leaving her alive for another day). In summary, Specially Defensive Latias gets very similar benefits to CM Latias despite the differences in their focus.

However, her additional special bulk makes a huge difference for taking on threats that a “normal” Latias would otherwise be incapable of dealing with - Light Screen and Roar only assist in this task. Shell Smash Omastar, Substitute Reshiram, Mewtwo, Deoxys-A, Choice Specs Kyurem-W (136 Spe EVs only; switch into all moves after SR except Draco Meteor), super effective CM Arceus... - Specially Defensive Latias has more utility than any other Latias set, which as Poppy says gives her excellent potential and a solid niche. But of course, there is Kyogre.

Specially Defensive Latias is an extremely good answer to any Kyogre variant. Her increased special bulk, Light Screen, and Roar gives her far more luxury against Kyogre; no longer will she have to play on Kyogre’s terms - she comes in whenever she wants too. Choice variants are completely destroyed, and represent the majority of Kyogre sets overall (Choice Scarf is ~39.5% usage when averaged between Aug-Nov; Choice Specs is ~16.9% usage). Thunder Wave variants meet their match as they struggle to do meaningful damage (After Light Screen, Kyogre’s Ice Beam does approximately 16%). Specially Defensive Kyogre gets out-phazed, does insignificant damage, and is just Light Screen bait. And of course, that goes for all non-last Pokemon CM Kyogre too. Don’t try any Sheer Cold trickery either; that’s banned.

As I said before, although it is definitely true that CM Kyogre sets are a possible issue should they be the last Pokemon, this set easily phazes them if they are not, can set up Light Screen to allow other teammates to deal with them more effectively, or simply get in first and spam Roar to rack up entry hazard damage.

Yet even when Latias faces a last-Pokemon CM Kyogre, her special bulk is still surprisingly tough to overcome. Take a look at the logs to find out (Scroll down to the Last-Pokemon Mono-Attacker Kyogre Situation).

So that pretty much leaves Calm Mind + 3 Attacks Kyogre as the primary problem when it is the last-Pokemon (SubCM and Chesto Berry variants are virtually non-existent according to usage stats). Thankfully, trying to last-Pokemon sweep with a Calm Mind + 3 Attacks Kyogre is quite difficult, especially when it lacks reliable recovery. Specially Defensive Latias only has to Light Screen and then switch to another Pokemon which can then easily take it down thanks to the Light Screen boost. Of course, you could give Latias Toxic (AC perhaps) if you are really paranoid - or you just carry a Perish Song user like Wallceus / method of beating a slow Kyogre with no reliable recovery (It’s not hard).

To conclude, in pretty much every relevant scenario, Specially Defensive Latias is an incredibly reliable and consistent Kyogre counter. If someone really wants that extra bit of reassurance against Kyogre, such as how Latias can safely switch into a critical hit, full power, rain Choice Specs Water Spout guaranteed assuming she is at full health, as well as a host of other stuff, Specially Defensive Latias is probably their Latias. However, players looking for a more offense touch may be disappointed.

The biggest problem with Specially Defensive Latias is her lack of offensive power. Since she places more emphasis into her bulk, it is understandable that her offense suffers. Although she is not offensive deadweight thanks to Soul Dew and Dragon Pulse, her attacks still aren’t very strong. Specially Defensive Latias not only lacks strong initial offensive pressure like Defensive Calm Mind, but she also lacks any possible method of boosting her offense. This means she can be quite detrimental to momentum if not used properly.

That being said, Specially Defensive Latias can actually choose to run Draco Meteor in a similar manner to All-Out Attacker. This actually allows her to strike harder than Offensive Pivot (AKA grants her more initial offensive pressure), which makes a huge difference for ensuring OHKOes against Pokemon like Giratina-O, Tornadus-T, Kyurem-W, etc., as well as severely harming Pokemon like Genesect. Roar helps to offset the -2 SpA drop, while Light Screen punishes any special response that dares switch in. Still, I imagine the consistency of Dragon Pulse against stuff like Kyogre would probably be preferred, so Draco Meteor is AC/secondary slash at best.

Regarding EV spreads, I found two to work particularly well - the bulky focus (252 HP / 12 Def / 148 SpD / 96 Spe Calm) and the Speed focus (252 HP / 120 SpD / 136 Spe). The bulky focus ensures the best bulk while outspeeding neutral base 90 Speed Pokemon; the Speed focus outspeeds neutral base 95 Speed Pokemon (Rayquaza, Kyurem-W, etc.) while also allowing Latias to do other potent stuff like switching into a Choice Specs Kyurem-W spamming Ice Beam after SR and then threatening with a Dragon Pulse OHKO after SR damage (Or Draco Meteor OHKO without SR if you so choose) - this is quite special for a Dragon-type. It really depends on how much you value the ability to outspeed neutral base 95 Speed Pokemon - an ability which I happen to like.


NOTES OF SUPERIMP REGARDING THE SET ORDER OF LATIAS
DISCLAIMER: ASSUMES YOU HAVE READ CURRENT THOUGHTS ON SETS

When deciding my current opinion on the set order for Latias, my look on the usage stats (EX: Rarity of sets, usage of moves, etc.) regarding Latias as of the time being will be de-emphasized. This is for two main reasons:

  1. There is no (Soul Dew) Latias analysis for Ubers currently on-site.
  2. Because of point #1, some usage stats may possibly be a bit off. EX: The most popular/consistent EV spread for Latias in November was 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA. I hope this is self-explanatory.
Some parts of my set order vote are relatively straightforward. For instance, although Offensive Pivot is still quite viable, she is only a shadow of her former self. Genesect is a major contributing factor to this development, along with the creation of the All-Out Attacker set. The lack of (relative) bulk also hurts too.

The other sets pose much more of a problem though as they carry far more subjectivity. Do we value the initial momentum grabbing of All-Out Attacker? Do we value the sweeping potential of Defensive Calm Mind? Or do we value the utility of Specially Defensive?

To solve this riddle, perhaps a look at the metagame analysis itself may bear some fruit (Courtesy of Antar’s usage stats):

[SCROLL=15]
offense.......................45.610%
rain..........................42.822%
balance.......................28.869%
sun...........................28.627%
weatherless...................25.506%
hyperoffense..................15.782%
sand..........................10.122%
multiweather.................. 8.373%
semistall..................... 7.019%
rainoffense................... 5.428%
stall......................... 2.720%
sunoffense.................... 2.569%
hail.......................... 1.628%
choice........................ 1.086%
sandoffense................... 0.933%
rainstall..................... 0.917%
batonpass..................... 0.855%
dragmag....................... 0.757%
sunstall...................... 0.571%
voltturn...................... 0.348%
sandstall..................... 0.308%
trickroom..................... 0.184%
tricksun...................... 0.073%
hailstall..................... 0.071%
hailoffense................... 0.060%
allweather.................... 0.043%
trickrain..................... 0.033%
trapper....................... 0.011%
tricksand..................... 0.010%
gravity....................... 0.001%

Stalliness (mean: -0.177)
|###
-1.5|########
|################
-1.0|#####################
|########################
-0.5|##############################
|#############################
0.0|##########################
|######################
+0.5|################
|###########
+1.0|##########
|########
+1.5|###
|##
+2.0|##
|#
+2.5|
|
more negative = more offensive, more positive = more stall
one # = 305 teams ( 0.42%)
[/SCROLL]
Based on this metagame analysis, I have set up my preliminary set order vote:

  1. All-Out Attacker
  2. Defensive Calm Mind
  3. Specially Defensive
  4. Offensive Pivot
Offensive Pivot is currently placed last due to prior experience, developments in the Uber metagame, as well as the fact that she is (generally) better geared toward teams with a heavier offensive bias.

The other three sets were based largely on the metagame analysis. All-Out Attacker is currently placed first as she is the most viable on the widest selection of teams due to her balanced nature. Specially Defensive and Defensive Calm Mind are a toss up. It could go either way depending on one's value on sweeping potential or utility. However, I placed Defensive Calm Mind first as I personally like her better (Incredibly rewarding for long-term thinking, but then again Genesect just like Offensive Pivot reduces her viability).

------------------------------------------------

Thanks for all your thoughts and concerns on Latias! Here's my current plan:

  • Offensive Pivot and Defensive Calm Mind will again remain distinct sets for the time being.
  • Offensive Pivot’s EV spread will remain 48 HP / 208 SpA / 252 Spe Timid due to significant support. Moveslot 4 will be changed to Thunder / Psyshock if there is no strong opposition.
  • Defensive Calm Mind’s EV spread is currently in deadlock between 216 HP / 40 SpA / 252 Spe Timid and 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe Timid. More votes are needed please!
  • All-Out Attacker’s EV spread will have a sun focus + enough speed to outspeed Garchomp due to overwhelming support. Either 164 HP / 148 SpA / 196 Spe or 148 HP / 164 SpA / 196 Spe will be used. Slashes will obviously be changed.
  • Specially Defensive’s EV spread will be 252 HP / 120 SpD / 136 Spe Calm due to “significant” support (Not really as few voted). Draco Meteor will be added to the last slot as a secondary slash OR in AC if there is no strong opposition.
  • The majority of members believe that Offensive Pivot should be last, so it is currently last. The majority of members believe that All-Out Attacker should be first, so it is currently first. The ordering between Specially Defensive and Defensive Calm Mind is literally in deadlock, so more votes are needed please!
If no outstanding issues remain, then I guess it’s time for me to finish writing up this analysis.
 

shrang

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I still don't see how the two Calm Mind sets are playing differently enough to warrant two sets. Yes I am aware that they do play differently, but I really don't think we need to split them up. If you have a look at my OU analysis, we merged 3 Calm Mind sets into one (One balanced, one fully defensive, one fully offensive). All three played relatively differently, but we still merged them into one set. I think we can do the same here. Nothing the defensive Calm Mind set does warrants any more than one or (at most) two paragraphs of extra AC cannot explain. Since trickroom and I (as well as other QC members) reckon a more general, more defensive spread works better on the Calm Mind set as a whole, we don't need the Offensive Pivot spread any more.

Basically, it all boils down to:

Calm Mind Latias (Calm Mind, Dragon Pulse, Recover) with an EV spread of 212 HP / 44 SpA / 252 Spe Timid:
-> Go offensive with Thunder / Psyshock / HP Fire => Advantages: Can be an immediate offensive threat while having the option of being a long term threat, Disadvantages: Not as good as a long term threat as the defensive option
-> Go defensive with Roar / Refresh / Substitute => Advantages: Can be a more long term threat, Disadvantages: Too easily stopped by Steel-types, especially Genesect

In AC, you can add mentions of more offensive spreads (your 48 HP / 204 SpA / 252 Spe spread) and more defensive spreads (stuff like 252 HP / 160 SpD / 96 Spe). See how that is much more concise?
 
Unfortunately (Fortunately?) shrang, you’re not in OU anymore; you’re in Ubers. As I stated before, an Offensive CM Latias has more viability in Ubers than she does in OU thanks to a different Latias VS. Latios dynamic. It is because of this that Ubers Latias can have two different CM sets; these playstyles are viable and different enough in their own right to justify their existence as standalone sets.

Although the general consensus is that a more defensively inclined EV spread fits better on CM Latias than a more offensively inclined EV spread (Hence Offensive Pivot being the current last set), this is very different from an explicit rejection of the Offensive Pivot. Offensive Pivot is still viable in Ubers, albeit a shadow of her former self. Whether this is enough to lead to an overall consensus on an explicit rejection of the Offensive Pivot, essentially forcing a merge, remains to be seen.

I imagine I have the benefit of hindsight here (That and the current skeleton is a little misleading as my analysis is significantly more comprehensive), but the sheer size of the AC paragraphs alone is probably enough to justify the existence of two sets (Unless one playstyle is de-emphasized in favor of the other, which creates a dilemma since both are perfectly viable). As you are quite aware of shrang, this isn’t any ordinary Pokemon - this is Latias, an incredibly versatile (and controversial) Pokemon that only deserves the best that is to be offered. By having two CM sets for Latias, a more thorough and expanded look into both respective playstyles can be achieved.

Take a look at Post #28 again (Skip to the benchmarks / EV spreads). Notice how the different EV spreads & discussion of relevant benchmarks for one set is already quite a bit - imagine what it would be like if you had all these relevant EV spreads and benchmark discussion for both respective playstyles in one set. Now try adding a discussion on Latias VS. Kyogre for each respective playstyle, respective move choices, respective teammates, respective problems, respective “how-to-play them,” etc. and the entire set I imagine becomes considerably more convoluted. As I said before, is it really realistic to jam all this stuff into a single CM set?

Oh, and all of this is ignoring Post #40, which should hopefully be self-explanatory (Check the size of my discussion for Offensive Pivot / Defensive Calm Mind as an example). Remember, there is a reason why I did not give Offensive Pivot Roar / Refresh / Substitute, or Defensive Calm Mind Thunder / Psyshock; both sets are specifically designed to use their respective last slot to their maximum potential.

Unless there is a significant consensus on a possible CM merge shrang (That or the Offensive Pivot gets rejected by overall consensus…), the splits will remain for the time being.

---------------------

Just before I forget, Tailwind will likely be placed in OO or at best AC in All-Out Attacker, unless someone managed to create a perfectly viable Tailwind Latias set that can stand apart from Latios and actually work effectively (As in enough for a standalone set).
 
My minor suggestion: Wherever Thunder is listed Thunderbolt probably could at least get an AC mention. It hits Ho-oh harder and is less weather dependent. It sucks missing against shit like Forry and Skarm in the sun. Latias is actually a GREAT answer to Kyogre for your sun team if Palkia isn't your thing.
 

Furai

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My minor suggestion: Wherever Thunder is listed Thunderbolt probably could at least get an AC mention. It hits Ho-oh harder and is less weather dependent. It sucks missing against shit like Forry and Skarm in the sun. Latias is actually a GREAT answer to Kyogre for your sun team if Palkia isn't your thing.
If you want to use it on sun, you're better off with Psyshock for Ho-Oh, or Grass Knot for Kyogre. Missing out on Forretress and Skarmory is the only big thing; but with the All-out Attacker set they're barely a problem, and CM sets up on those all day long. They still remain annoying, you're absolutely correct, but I don't think that it warrants the low power of Thunerbolt. I would honestly rather go for the 50% if I want to hit those two. Furthermore, Psyshock does more against Ho-Oh than Thunderbolt:
+1 204 SpA Latias Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh: 184-217 (44.33 - 52.28%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 204 SpA Latias Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 84 SpD Ho-Oh: 172-204 (41.44 - 49.15%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
 
If you want to use it on sun, you're better off with Psyshock for Ho-Oh, or Grass Knot for Kyogre. Missing out on Forretress and Skarmory is the only big thing; but with the All-out Attacker set they're barely a problem, and CM sets up on those all day long. They still remain annoying, you're absolutely correct, but I don't think that it warrants the low power of Thunderbolt. I would honestly rather go for the 50% if I want to hit those two. Furthermore, Psyshock does more against Ho-Oh than Thunderbolt:
+1 204 SpA Latias Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh: 184-217 (44.33 - 52.28%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 204 SpA Latias Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 84 SpD Ho-Oh: 172-204 (41.44 - 49.15%) -- guaranteed 3HKO



^ A WIP for my comments; stay tuned.
Well yes that is all grits and gravy but Psyshock leaves you open to all steels, not just those two. That is why Dragon / Electric is usually the preferred combo. I'm merely suggesting the mention because Latias is definitely one of Sun's best counters to Kyogre. It is just another thing to consider where Thunder is mentioned. You can retain the ability to hit Kyogre, Steels, AND Lugia / Ho-Oh with Thunderbolt, rain or shine.
 

shrang

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Unfortunately (Fortunately?) shrang, you’re not in OU anymore; you’re in Ubers. As I stated before, an Offensive CM Latias has more viability in Ubers than she does in OU thanks to a different Latias VS. Latios dynamic. It is because of this that Ubers Latias can have two different CM sets; these playstyles are viable and different enough in their own right to justify their existence as standalone sets.

Although the general consensus is that a more defensively inclined EV spread fits better on CM Latias than a more offensively inclined EV spread (Hence Offensive Pivot being the current last set), this is very different from an explicit rejection of the Offensive Pivot. Offensive Pivot is still viable in Ubers, albeit a shadow of her former self. Whether this is enough to lead to an overall consensus on an explicit rejection of the Offensive Pivot, essentially forcing a merge, remains to be seen.

I imagine I have the benefit of hindsight here (That and the current skeleton is a little misleading as my analysis is significantly more comprehensive), but the sheer size of the AC paragraphs alone is probably enough to justify the existence of two sets (Unless one playstyle is de-emphasized in favor of the other, which creates a dilemma since both are perfectly viable). As you are quite aware of shrang, this isn’t any ordinary Pokemon - this is Latias, an incredibly versatile (and controversial) Pokemon that only deserves the best that is to be offered. By having two CM sets for Latias, a more thorough and expanded look into both respective playstyles can be achieved.

Take a look at Post #28 again (Skip to the benchmarks / EV spreads). Notice how the different EV spreads & discussion of relevant benchmarks for one set is already quite a bit - imagine what it would be like if you had all these relevant EV spreads and benchmark discussion for both respective playstyles in one set. Now try adding a discussion on Latias VS. Kyogre for each respective playstyle, respective move choices, respective teammates, respective problems, respective “how-to-play them,” etc. and the entire set I imagine becomes considerably more convoluted. As I said before, is it really realistic to jam all this stuff into a single CM set?

Oh, and all of this is ignoring Post #40, which should hopefully be self-explanatory (Check the size of my discussion for Offensive Pivot / Defensive Calm Mind as an example). Remember, there is a reason why I did not give Offensive Pivot Roar / Refresh / Substitute, or Defensive Calm Mind Thunder / Psyshock; both sets are specifically designed to use their respective last slot to their maximum potential.

Unless there is a significant consensus on a possible CM merge shrang (That or the Offensive Pivot gets rejected by overall consensus…), the splits will remain for the time being.

---------------------

Just before I forget, Tailwind will likely be placed in OO or at best AC in All-Out Attacker, unless someone managed to create a perfectly viable Tailwind Latias set that can stand apart from Latios and actually work effectively (As in enough for a standalone set).
I'm fully aware this is Ubers, not OU, thank you very much. My OU comparison has nothing to do with the fact that it's viable in OU and therefore Ubers (which you're definitely reading me wrong), but I'm just showing you the approach that you should be taking. You still have not given reasons on how offensive CM Latias deserves a set of its own instead of just merging the two sets together. Again, I'm not the only one calling for this, trickroom has explicitly stated he wants the two sets merged as well, while I have talked to Poppy and Furai at the very least on IRC and they were completely fine with the merge. You are right that purely offensive Calm Mind Latias is not very good any more. This is why a bulkier EV spread is much more applicable. Latias with the EV spread given pretty much makes what you call the "Offensive Pivot" set completely redundant, as it does pretty much everything that it was supposed to do. This is why I'm saying merge the two sets. It will only make your job easier.

The AC paragraphs won't be that big at all. You may as treat this as a rejection of the Offensive Pivot set as we want you to merge the two sets into the Calm Mind set I've highlighted above.

Please hurry up and finish this, Superimp. We need this analysis up ASAP, and arguing will not get us anywhere.
 

Furai

we will become who we are meant to be
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My comments. Superb work, Superimp.

Now, regarding Tailwind on Offensive Pivot. I am not very sure about it. My problem is that it literally has no place; without CM it won't be able to function as a Kyogre and CM Arceus check and it would be way too easy to check. Without a coverage move, a ton of things beat you, and you won't be able to setup both CM and Tailwind at all. I think that the best solution is a strong AC mention on its surprise factor and how it makes Latias and her team a bit more pressuring.
 
Latias’s analysis has finally been written. I hope this analysis is open, meticulous, and best reflects the different aspects of Latias to hopefully appeal to as many players as possible. Some polishing before GP will now occur; with any additional input, I'm sure the final product will be much improved.

Furai and trickroom, I’m not that much of a Tailwind Lati@s user, but I definitely acknowledge its potential. I’m sure there are plenty of players out there who would be interested in Tailwind Latias. I imagine adding Tailwind to Offensive Pivot AC would be a great compromise; the sets remain separate, but they are now even more distinct. It coincidentally also mirrors Latios’s Special Dragon Dance set quite well. Consider it very likely that Tailwind will be incorporated in the near future. Your remaining comments Furai will be addressed in due time; they are very much appreciated.

shrang, my OU comment was in response to your experience with the OU analysis; the OU and Uber Latias analyses are mutually exclusive and are in a different context. I am sorry if this was unclear to you.

I am quite aware of your support for a possible merge shrang. However, unless there is significant consensus, the sets will remain separate. Please thoroughly check any previous posts again if you are interested, for your concerns have already been addressed multiple times (and in the hindsight of having already written the Defensive Calm Mind and Offensive Pivot sections).

On a different note, the skeleton of the analysis has finally been updated in order to keep this analysis as consistent as possible. The final set order and EV spreads have also been determined from all your votes (including Furai’s changed vote) as follows:

  1. All-Out Attacker -> 164 HP / 148 SpA / 196 Spe Timid
  2. Defensive Calm Mind -> 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe Timid
  3. Specially Defensive -> 252 HP / 120 SpD / 136 Spe Calm
  4. Offensive Pivot -> 48 HP / 208 SpA / 252 Spe Timid
Thanks for all your input! You’re always welcome to change your vote if you would like.

If any member has some reasonable input that might improve this analysis (EX: elaborate on this section, de-emphasize this section, consider adding this missing check, implement some option that wasn’t considered, etc.), then please let me know.

EDIT:

shrang, I'll address your post in due time once I respond to Furai's comments. But for now, here is what Furai recently had to say:

Furai said:
I'm saying no to merging the Calm Mind sets, as it would just be gigantic and would lack too much information. The sets play differently, and the analysis should resemble that.
In fact, Furai thinks that Offensive Pivot should be listed as the second set. If you are interested, consider reading his comments in Post #47.
 

shrang

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I am quite aware of your support for a possible merge shrang. However, unless there is significant consensus, the sets will remain separate. Please thoroughly check any previous posts again if you are interested, for your concerns have already been addressed multiple times (and in the hindsight of having already written the Defensive Calm Mind and Offensive Pivot sections).
I don't what you mean by "significant consensus" here Superimp. The only person who is not agreeing to the merge is you at the moment. I think we should have a merge, trickroom does too, Poppy and Furai (from the talks we had on IRC), did not disagree. In terms of active QC members, no-one is disagreeing with the merge, so I have no idea why you insist on not following these directions. I'd be much more vocal about this if Latias hasn't been getting this revamp so long that we need this up ASAP, but all I can say that I'm not impressed at this.

On the other hand, good job on the actual analysis. It seems that the wait was worth it in terms of detail and content, well done.
 

Furai

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I have changed my mind regarding the merge, shrang. It seemed like an awesome idea when we were throwing it in the air; but now look at the analysis. Are you really sure about merging the two, and losing a TON of important information? No one is going to bother reading a 20+ paragraph analysis. I am against the merge just for that reason. Latias is an important part of Ubers, and I think the analysis should show it; be it by showing her phenomenal capabilities, or by giving a deep analysis to each set.
 

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