The Thrashing Sun

[mikeweltevrede]

Hello Smogon!

So one day I got a message from a friend, he sent me the importable for his Ubers team which featured these pokes: Groudon, Ho-Oh, Shaymin-S, Latios, Giratina-A and Forretress.

Immediately, the huge Ice-Type weakness struck me. So I decided to try and edit this team a bit. I mostly looked at Shaymin-S and Giratina. I felt like the other pokes were quite in place. Giratina functioned great as a spinblocker, since he has got every single entry hazard on his team. However, I found Giratina to lack power, even though it helped with the phazing. I myself had faced enough problems with another Spinblocker which gave me the idea to throw it on the team.

I'll just go through it in steps to be a little clearer:

1) Groudon - Latios - Ho-Oh - Forretress - Giratina - Shaymin-S
*1) Although Forretress is even more dead than before when hit by a Fire-Type attack in the sun, it is a great Spinner and hazard setter. Moreover, a great Ferrothorn counter.
I wanted to replace Giratina by another great Spinblocker in Ubers: Arceus-Ghost! I was doubting between a Support set and the CM set. Eventually I chose to run the CM one to hit stuff harder, mostly the Pink Blobs, Chansey and Blissey.

2) Groudon - Latios - Ho-Oh - Forretress - Arceus-Ghost - Shaymin-S
*2) So we still got a great Ice weakness, but I wasn't looking for a full resist. As Skymin was Scarfed, another Scarfer would seem obvious and helpful. I decided to try out Scarf Dialga. It worked great on my own team so why wouldn't I try running it on this team? I only have one dilemma for a moveslot: Fire Blast or TBolt and Aura Sphere or TBolt. Fire Blast abuses the sun, while Aura Sphere hits TTar, to which I am kind of weak if Groudon is gone. TBolt is used to hit Kyogre. Why not run Thunder? Simple; I don't want to miss outside of Rain, if the opponent isn't using it.

3) Groudon - Latios - Ho-Oh - Forretress - Arceus-Ghost - Dialga
*3) In my experience, Latias is better than Latios in Ubers since she has greater Bulk, added to that, the Soul Dew brings her to a standard +1 in SAtk and SDef! I decided to let this set be, only changing the o in an a.

4) Groudon - Latias - Ho-Oh - Forretress - Arceus-Ghost - Dialga
*4) This is basically the team! I still think that I would need something a little more Physically Bulky, apart from Groudon

So for the actual movesets:

Groudon @ Leftovers
Trait: Drought
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Stone Edge
- Dragon Tail

This is the Groudon set I like the most. Standard physically defensive with Dragon Tail and Stealth Rock. Alongside Forretress, Dragon Tail helps well with abusing the entry hazards. Moreover, T-Wave is a great move in ubers, since there are so many fast pokes in there that threaten my team.

Forretress (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 36 Def / 220 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Spikes
- Toxic Spikes
- Rapid Spin
- Pain Split

Forretress is a great Ferrothorn counter, which is one thing that annoys me more than a burnt pizza. Moreover, it lays Spikes and Toxic Spikes on the field, the best entry hazards in Ubers in my opinion. Lastly, it has Rapid Spin to spin the Rocks away for Ho-Oh, Toxic Spikes for Groudon and Ghost-Arceus and Spikes for basically everything but Ho-Oh and Latias.

Latias (F) @ Soul Dew
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Recover
- Grass Knot
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Draco Meteor

I've faced offensive Latias so much while testing my own team that I've seen it wreak havoc while taking (special) hits extremely well. This is basically the one and only reason I changed the o into an a.
For the moves, the Draco Meteor is to hit anything really hard. The Thunderbolt is to hit Kyogre, since it poses quite the threat to my team. I needed something to hit it and this seemed by best bet, along with Dialga, but more about that later on. Dragon Pulse is to hit consistently with STAB and no SAtk drops while HP Fire becomes Pseudo-STAB in the sun. Moving on!

Ho-Oh @ Leftovers
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 188 Def / 72 Spe
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Substitute
- Sacred Fire
- Roost
- Brave Bird

This Ho-Oh was here to stay since this was, along with Groudon, a poke my friend really wanted to use in this set format. Let me explain the (fairly obvious) moves though. First off, we have the double stab, providing quite good coverage already. Still, Rock types wall it, so there is EQ for that. Lastly, there is Roost/Recover. I am still doubting. Roost rids it of its 4x Rock type weakness, but leaves it vulnerable to Ground type moves. Recover leaves it weak to Rocky moves but leaves it immune to Ground Type moves. Any suggestions?

Arceus-Ghost @ Spooky Plate
Trait: Multitype
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 Spe
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover
- Judgment
- Focus Blast

I needed a reliable Spinblocker and have always had a thing for Arceus-Ghost. I also like the CM Arceuses a lot, although they are sometimes quite unreliable since they are walled by specially defensive guys when there are no CMs set up. This is a problem, but I have other guys that can deal with those before Arceus can seize the day.
Judgment and Focus Blast are to hit neutrally, Judgment for STAB and Focus Blast mostly to hit the Pink Blobs.

Edit: CM to W-o-W for crippling offensive mon's, especially chomp and groudon

Genesect @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk /
4 SAtk / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature (+Spe, -Def)
- Ice Beam
- U-Turn
- Iron Head
- Explosion

This is the poke I have the most doubts about. Mostly because I really need something to hit Kyogre, here in the form of TBolt. As I've explained before, I don't know what to drop: the Sun Boosted Fire Blast or the TTar/Darkrai hitting Aura Sphere. I hope to receive some tips on this fron you guys.
Again, Draco to hit hard. Dragon Pulse is to hit consistently, with STAB and no SAtk drops.

Edit: to Genesect because:

Lastly, I propose a Choice Scarf Genesect rather than a Dialga, it maintains Steel-typing and outspeeds Rayquaza, while threatening Latias (which Ho-Oh struggles with in rain if it has Thunder or Surf), Darkrai, and Mewtwo (Ghost Arceus loses if it CMs on the switch, Phys.Def Ho-Oh is a shaky check).
...
Physical spread for enough U-Turn damage on the targets it needs to hit.

So please leave your comments and such down, I would greatly appreciate it!

Excuse me for the boring layout, but I don't have access to my PC at the moment. I am sending this in from my iPod, so I am not able to add pictures.

Well, that's it for me! Thank you guys in advance! :]

Peace!

Edit: edits are in Bold

 

[Chirac]

Hi.
It seems to me that you have a significant weakness to Groudon and Garchomp (SD versions especially), due to the lack of W-o-W on Arceus, the free set-up on Forretress, Latias after a DM and Dialga locked on DM/FB.
You cannot switch in those two Ground-types safely, which is not very nice knowing their strike force. In fact, the only thing that can really do against them is switching on your own Groudon, and D-Tail them after taking a lot of damages. But Groudon has no recovery move, so it will feint too quickly.
Maybe you took Dialga scarfed to RK them, especially Garchomp, but with their decent bulk, even in specialdef, and thanks to the Haban Berry for Chomp, it can't do the job very well...

I also think that you can't do anything against Kyogre; Latias is your unique switch in to Kyogre (Specs and Mind on top), if you notice that SpecsOgre does 89-105% on Dialga with Water Spout full health lol, and your poor Latias without Recover won't take many hits from it.

So if I try to help you, I suggest you to get Recover on Latias over Draco Meteor or Dragon Pulse firstly, and you can run Thunder over Thunderbolt, which is usefull only against rain teams.
Secondly, for this problem with Chomp/Groudon, maybe you could run a defensive set of Ghost-Ceus, with Will-O-Wisp over Calm Mind. Ok you lose your set-upper, but it seems legit to me to check those 'mons.

Dialga is the frail point of the team, maybe an other scarfed-one will do a better job? But I don't see which one. And it can works much with the changing I gave you, which are done to have better pivots.

Hope it was helpful.

 

[mikeweltevrede]

Hi.
It seems to me that you have a significant weakness to Groudon and Garchomp (SD versions especially), due to the lack of W-o-W on Arceus, the free set-up on Forretress, Latias after a DM and Dialga locked on DM/FB.
You cannot switch in those two Ground-types safely, which is not very nice knowing their strike force.

Okay, I definitely see the problem now, since the Tina had w-o-w I dorgot about it, thanks for reminding!

So if I try to help you, I suggest you to get Recover on Latias over Draco Meteor or Dragon Pulse firstly, and you can run Thunder over Thunderbolt, which is usefull only against rain teams.
Secondly, for this problem with Chomp/Groudon, maybe you could run a defensive set of Ghost-Ceus, with Will-O-Wisp over Calm Mind. Ok you lose your set-upper, but it seems legit to me to check those 'mons.

I shall try this. I myself think that TBolt/Thunder is indeed only good against rain teams, so choosing thunder can be a good option; I shall try it, as well as recover over draco.
As said before, chomp and groudon are a threat so I shall also take your advice on this one! I shall try it out asap.

Dialga is the frail point of the team, maybe an other scarfed-one will do a better job? But I don't see which one. And it can works much with the changing I gave you, which are done to have better pivots.

Okay, well it helped me quite a bit, although more on rain teams. I thought about Reshiram or Kyurem-R, but that leaves me at another Rock weakness added... I shall put some thought into this.

Thank you!

 

[Alfalfa]

Actually, Thunder only has a whopping 50% accuracy in the sun. So Thunderbolt would be a weaker but wiser choice.

 

[Chirac]

Not for Tias. Latias is the first option against Kyogre and its rain partners (such as Manaphy). So Thunder is a very reliable option on it.

On the other hand, Thunder on Dialga isn't a good choice imo. Keep DM-FB-Aurasphere-DragonPulse, that's the better choice. You now have Ghost-Ceus against Groudon and Garchomp. (be careful about Lum-Groudon)

 

[His Eminence Lord Poppington II]

T-Wave Support Groudon / Pain Split Tspikes Forretress / 3 Attacks Jolly LO Ho-Oh / Choice Scarf Dialga / Support Ghost Arceus / 3 Attacks Latias

This team is weak to, in order of importance, -

Ho-Oh

Blaziken

Gliscor

Mewtwo

Darkrai - simply by the virtue of having nothing to the absorb the sleep and Ho-Oh not being bulky enough to take on Life Orb Darkrai at + 2.

While not weak to much on paper your team suffers from relying on a fragile Ho-Oh to check a lot of things, compounded by reliance on Rapid Spin (not saying that Magic Bounce is necessarily better in all situations, but it pairs better with offensive Ho-Oh). A lot of your movesets are also suboptimal and non-complementary to the rest of your team.

Groudon would be much better off with Fire Punch over Thunder Wave, limiting Stealth Rock users, this still leaves a huge weakness to Ho-Oh -- Stone Edge and speed investment is a viable alternative, but -- I suggest a Physically Defensive Ho-Oh over your current one, it checks non-LO and CB versions of opposing Ho-Oh excellently, in addition to potentially burning ExtremeKiller, which can severely weaken Groudon and get past Ghost Arceus if it is running Shadow Force. Physically Defensive Ho-Oh also checks Blaziken without Stone Edge (no one runs that).

Groudon

Hide

move 1: Earthquake
move 2: Fire Punch
move 3: Dragon Tail
move 4: Stealth Rock
item: Leftovers
ability: Drought
nature: Impish
evs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def

Ho-Oh

Hide

move 1: Sacred Fire
move 2: Brave Bird
move 3: Roost
move 4: Substitute
item: Leftovers
ability: Regenerator
nature: Impish
evs: 248 HP / 188 Def / 72 Spe

Extra speed is creep, but it's good to have a large amount to through up pre-cautionary Substitutes and stall out Groudon of Stone Edge. If you outspeed Gliscor you can also set up a Substitute on its face. You can adjust it as you like.

Latias' set is suboptimal, why have Thunder, a largely useless move outside of rain, when running a sun team? Grass Knot still hits Kyogre, and gets a nice SE hit on Groudon, Rock / Water / Ground Arceus, Tyranitar, etc. Draco Meteor also tends to be better on three attacks Latias rather than Dragon Pulse, as it becomes more of a hit-and-run pivot / attacker rather than a CM sweeper. Also with EVs like that Latias is easily 2HKOed by Choice Scarf Ice Beam from Kyogre, undesirable, to say the least.

Latias

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move 1: Hidden Power Fire
move 2: Grass Knot
move 3: Draco Meteor
move 4: Roost
item: Soul Dew
ability: Levitate
nature: Timid
evs: 168 HP / 144 SpA / 196 Spe

These EVs are for something I forget, but 144 SpA is a benchmark for something importance, 196 Spe outspeeds Garchomp, taking into account the IV drop for HP Fire, and the rest goes in bulk.

Arceus Ghost with no Speed investment means trouble sometimes, at least aim to outspeed Latias, so you can Judgment it before it CMs. Additional speed also means faster Recovers, also the defensive load on Arceus is lessened due to the addition of Ho-Oh.

Arceus Ghost

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move 1: Judgment
move 2: Will-O-Wisp
move 3: Focus Blast
move 4: Recover
item: Spooky Plate
ability: Multitype
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 Spe

With Forretress's current spread it stands a chance to be 2HKOed by +1 Rayquaza's Outrage and Kyurem-B's Choice Band Outrage (after SR), by using an improved spread you can absorb two boosted Outrage's and Pain Split.

Forretress

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move 1: Spikes
move 2: Toxic Spikes
move 3: Rapid Spin
move 4: Pain Split
item: Leftovers
ability: Sturdy
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 36 Def / 220 SpD

Lastly, I propose a Choice Scarf Genesect rather than a Dialga, it maintains Steel-typing and outspeeds Rayquaza, while threatening Latias (which Ho-Oh struggles with in rain if it has Thunder or Surf), Darkrai, and Mewtwo (Ghost Arceus loses if it CMs on the switch, Phys.Def Ho-Oh is a shaky check).

Genesect

Hide

move 1: U-Turn
move 2: Iron Head
move 3: Explosion
move 4: Ice Beam
item: Choice Scarf
ability: Download
nature: Hasty
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe

Physical spread for enough U-Turn damage on the targets it needs to hit.

Good luck.

 

[mikeweltevrede]

T-Wave Support Groudon / Pain Split Tspikes Forretress / 3 Attacks Jolly LO Ho-Oh / Choice Scarf Dialga / Support Ghost Arceus / 3 Attacks Latias

This team is weak to, in order of importance, -

Ho-Oh

Blaziken

Gliscor

Mewtwo

Darkrai - simply by the virtue of having nothing to the absorb the sleep and Ho-Oh not being bulky enough to take on Life Orb Darkrai at + 2.

......

Good luck.

Thanks a lot! This is a truly wonderful response and helps me a lot. However, I don't like running Explosion on Genesect, I might consider T-Bolt or such once again, just because Rain is so prominent. But thanks anyways, I shall test most of the changes out since it all made sense!

 

[His Eminence Lord Poppington II]

If you don't want to use Explosion then use Flamethrower.

 

[Jibaku]

@physically defensive Ho-Oh

You want to be careful here. Phys def Ho-Oh doesn't really check opposing Ho-Oh because they're doing about the same amount of damage to each other. Since you're going to be switching in, your Ho-Oh would get the short end of the stick. Phys. Def Ho-Oh is a good buffer, but you're going to need another check to actually destroy it. I personally recommend Stone Edge > Fire Punch on Groudon for this.

Definitely consider Explosion on Genesect. +1 Explosion is strong enough to annihilate 4/0 Arceus after SR damage, and can also act as a backup move for Ho-Oh. Thunderbolt is useless because it's not going to be doing any significant damage to pretty much anything (except Gyarados -__-) and if you really need to hit Skarmory, Flamethrower is the superior option. Bug Buzz is also a better option than TBolt because you can OHKO Darkrai/Mewtwo if you get the SAtk boost.

 

[His Eminence Lord Poppington II]

Another option is to use Whirlwind over Substitute. But, as I covered in my post, I find limiting Ferrothorn and Forretress more useful than having to creep on Groudon and rely on Stone Edge. It is, of course, up to you, however.