-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 7 - Ice Ice Baby
- Thread starter Iconic
- Start date
- Status
You're right that Kyurem-B would only hurt defensive teams even more than they already are, but testing is done in order to see if something is broken or not within the current metagame, which is mostly offensive anyway. If it isn't broken in this metagame, then it doesn't matter if it hurts another playstyle. Though, honestly, I think there are more important issues than whether or not Kyurem-B deserves a shot at OU.
I've played on PO with Kyurem-B unbanned much longer than most, and also in the current Mini-Tournament where Kyurem-B is unbanned and I've been really underwhelmed with it. I've built a team around it and I must say that SubRoost Dclaw Fusion Bolt with T-wave support is actually pretty cool. With the ubiquity of Fighting-types that can easily kill it such as Keldeo, Breloom, Terrakion, etc. it's a much more dangerous threat on paper than in practice.
you could say this about a lot of physical dragons though, or hell a lot of things in general. cb/specs tend to do that to a mon; once those things get in something is usually going down. it just happens that kyube, with 170 base attack, is an extremely polarizing example of it (and that base attack on its own is not enough to make it broken, as jonathanrp noted).
the fact that kyurem-b cannot be countered (supposedly, at least, i'm sure there are some things that can counter it in practice since it has so few movepool options against most anti-dragon steels to begin with), and that you have to sack something into it then revenge it, is not really new right now... i'm not sure if it's healthy for the metagame for such things to be running around, but regardless, that alone can hardly be enough to ban it, if only on grounds of consistency. lots of things could have been banned for that reason but haven't been. we could even argue a cb/specs ban on those grounds, which would be downright silly. kyube would have to be indeed overwhelming to justify being the first real case of being banned for that, and that alone. it's not like it's unreasonably difficult to check with that hardcore base 95 speed.
ala, you should try using Physically Defensive Jirachi, it takes Kyurem's moves relatively comfortably, and it can break Substitutes with its Iron Head. It's a safe switch-in, at the very least.
I echo Princess Bri's sentiments that Kyurem-B has been unimpressive for me. It was not as monstrously bulky as I expected (Modest Rotom-W's Hydro Pump broke its Substitute without Rain -_-), and the current OU already has the tools to effectively check Kyurem-B. I doubt it would alter the BW2 scene as much as Garchomp did.
I echo Princess Bri's sentiments that Kyurem-B has been unimpressive for me. It was not as monstrously bulky as I expected (Modest Rotom-W's Hydro Pump broke its Substitute without Rain -_-), and the current OU already has the tools to effectively check Kyurem-B. I doubt it would alter the BW2 scene as much as Garchomp did.
I've been running the OU mini-tournament, in which Kyurem-B is unbanned, for some time. As the tournament nears its end I've talked with numerous participants about their feelings on Kyurem-B. Not a one of them as been impressed, and in the later stages of the tournament many of them have taken to simply not using it. It seems to me that Kyurem-B indeed doesn't bring any niche to the metagame. Choice Band has amazing power sure, but Haxorus already brings that power with its own Band set(along with a neutrality to Fighting and Steel). 170 may seem totally different than 147, but at that point extra power is more often than not overkill, especially in our totally offensive metagame.
I have continued to play on PO quite frequently where Kyurem-B is unbanned so I think I have a pretty good idea of the impact it has on the metagame. There's no denying the raw power of Kyurem-B when looking at the base 170 attack stat, but in reality it's really hard to abuse it. Among other common Dragons you'd see in OU such as Salamence, Latios and now Garchomp, they're all faster than Kyurem-B, meaning it's pretty easy to revenge, and you need to send it in against something it's faster than. I think if it did have base 100 Speed it would be pushing over the boundaries between healthy for the metagame and metagame changing, but I really haven't been impressed by it all that much, like others have said before me. When laddering on PO, I really didn't find a lot of people using Kyurem, but rather using the aforementioned Dragons. The metagame right now is very very offensive, meaning teams can afford to run 5 sweepers plus a hazard setter. Teams like this generally need fast 'mons to utilize this well, which is why Kyurem is kind of a disappointment in that regard. It's all fine and good spamming CB Outrages, you might get one kill per game, but you're gonna be revenged on the following turn which heavily limits the survivability of Kyurem. I've found that Kyurem pretty much has to use Outrage to accomplish anything, meaning you're forced to stay in for another turn or two. While Kyurem obviously has much more initial power, I still struggle to find it's niche. Honestly, I wouldn't use this over Salamence or Garchomp, where the difference in speed really makes a big difference. I still wouldn't say it's bad however, I'm interested in the SubRoost set Bri posted, especially when you combine it with Thunder Wave support.
But yeah, obviously this is gonna mean a big increase of DragMag teams, as Magnezone traps all of Kyurem-B's "counters" and removes them easily, meaning you don't really have anything to switch directly into Kyurem-B. I also ran a Gothitelle + Kyurem team and that worked just as well, Kyurem really appreciates those Steels gone because literally nothing wants to switch in, the power output is scary. I'm still kind of torn on what is the best set, I've tried Mixed, Scarf and CB, but none have really impressed me. Mixed is kind of cool for removing Ferrothorn and Forretress, but you have to substitute significant atk / spA investment to beat these without letting them get up hazards / status, either making Kyurem even slower, or missing out on a few more KOs. Scarf is really underwhelming, the only choiced set it should run IMO is CB, as Kyurem can actually break through it's counters while still affording to be choice locked. Just my two cents, but after around 250 matches on PO I really didn't see a lot of Kyurem-B -- kind of hoping I can be proved wrong and someone can find a good use for it.
But yeah, obviously this is gonna mean a big increase of DragMag teams, as Magnezone traps all of Kyurem-B's "counters" and removes them easily, meaning you don't really have anything to switch directly into Kyurem-B. I also ran a Gothitelle + Kyurem team and that worked just as well, Kyurem really appreciates those Steels gone because literally nothing wants to switch in, the power output is scary. I'm still kind of torn on what is the best set, I've tried Mixed, Scarf and CB, but none have really impressed me. Mixed is kind of cool for removing Ferrothorn and Forretress, but you have to substitute significant atk / spA investment to beat these without letting them get up hazards / status, either making Kyurem even slower, or missing out on a few more KOs. Scarf is really underwhelming, the only choiced set it should run IMO is CB, as Kyurem can actually break through it's counters while still affording to be choice locked. Just my two cents, but after around 250 matches on PO I really didn't see a lot of Kyurem-B -- kind of hoping I can be proved wrong and someone can find a good use for it.
It does have a niche, though. It's extra Atk isn't overkill when a non-choiced Kyu-B can 2HKO Skarmory with Fusion Bolt or inflicting 74-88% with Choice Band. Fusion Bolt is really all the coverage it really needs. It's also the first Physical Dragon that doesn't fear Water-types (except Keldeo), thanks to its Ice Beam neutrality, and it can proceed to put up a Substitute to block weak Scalds and proceed with the demolition. Access to Roost means it could stick around even with a SR weakness. I'd say Kyurem-B would be a solid OU Pokemon.
Second, actually. Suicune, the cover legend in Pokemon Crystal, was OU in the past.
For the short time I've played on PO's OU server, I really didn't see much of Kyurem-B. It honestly suffers a lot of problems with standing out among the competition. Its Atk stat is the most notable aspect, but even then it's not killing much more than Haxorus. Its SpA is good, but it doesn't stand out nearly as much. Its bulk is good, but not that great when uninvested. The speed is the real killer here. While it's not bad, it is putting him behind most of the other Dragons (besides Dragonite, who kinda has an excuse with Extremespeed and Multiscale). Its Ice typing also leaves it vulnerable to a wide range of Pokemon such as Terrakion, Garchomp, Scizor, Ferrothorn, etc.
I guess the real test will be whether or not OU players can keep that huge base Atk stat under control, since that's the main thing going for it.
For the short time I've played on PO's OU server, I really didn't see much of Kyurem-B. It honestly suffers a lot of problems with standing out among the competition. Its Atk stat is the most notable aspect, but even then it's not killing much more than Haxorus. Its SpA is good, but it doesn't stand out nearly as much. Its bulk is good, but not that great when uninvested. The speed is the real killer here. While it's not bad, it is putting him behind most of the other Dragons (besides Dragonite, who kinda has an excuse with Extremespeed and Multiscale). Its Ice typing also leaves it vulnerable to a wide range of Pokemon such as Terrakion, Garchomp, Scizor, Ferrothorn, etc.
I guess the real test will be whether or not OU players can keep that huge base Atk stat under control, since that's the main thing going for it.
Quit being a drama, queen. There is no reason on earth to leave anything in ubers if it's not broken in ou. Banning is a bad thing we want to minimize the number as ubers as we can and it's been said, time and time again. Heck your comment borderline on spam, you fail to justify yourself and you exasperated the truth to suit your own means with your stupid arceus remark.
Also as prievously stated after the would be ubers have been tested they will move onto out pokemon.
Well, Kuyrem-B certainly doesn't look or "feel" right in OU, based on the drastic difference in physical appearance between OU 'mons and Uber 'mons. Kyurem looks like a joke, he is excused, but this mighty behemoth with glowing tail stuff? It will stick out visually, that's for sure.
On the other hand, certain Bidoof are banned from Ubers. Guess the good ol' thumb rule of "More pixels in the sprite = greater chance of Uber" needs a revision.
On the other hand, certain Bidoof are banned from Ubers. Guess the good ol' thumb rule of "More pixels in the sprite = greater chance of Uber" needs a revision.
Kyurem-B is obviously not as good as OU's current batch of Dragons. However, a pressing concern of mine is how its influence will stack up with those Dragons. Its blatant, in-your-face base attack will definitely encourage some usage in the early stages of its unban, and in that time frame, we'll probably be seeing more Dragon-oriented offense than we ever have before. After all, we did just add Garchomp to the ranks, a legend among offensive OU Dragons, so yet another wallbreaking partner might very well tip the scales and get even mindset of adapting players to finally say, "This shit is ridiculous."
My point is that I'm not sure if unbanning more Dragons just to unban more Dragons is a wisea move for OU. We only have so many Steel types to defend against them. However, a combined effort from any of them is impossible to defend against. What if Kyurem-B and Garchomp were keys needed to establish a new world order?
Offense doesn't need another boost, in my opinion. It chagrins me to say even a mediocre Dragon like Kyurem-B could have a negative effect on OU due in part to the domino effect.
My point is that I'm not sure if unbanning more Dragons just to unban more Dragons is a wisea move for OU. We only have so many Steel types to defend against them. However, a combined effort from any of them is impossible to defend against. What if Kyurem-B and Garchomp were keys needed to establish a new world order?
Offense doesn't need another boost, in my opinion. It chagrins me to say even a mediocre Dragon like Kyurem-B could have a negative effect on OU due in part to the domino effect.
If Kyurem-B is weaker than other dragons, then those others are the ones to blame for any possible negative impacts.
The negative aspects of the metagame aren't just Dragons, it's just the fucking power of the metagame. Thing is, Smogon isn't going to just ban all the Pokemon that have a "negative" impact due to being so pwrful (think Breloom, Dragonite, Venusaur, Garchomp!, Lati@s, Rain Genies..) because at the end of the day there will always be a certain amount of "broken" Pokemon in the metagame, there just has to be an even level of broken. Sadly, this makes the constant bickering of stall being bad turn out to be true.. I only have had success with two stall teams thus far, one being Sun Stall and one being HippoTar CeleTran Forre Jellicent.. I mean meh.
Kyurem-B is just meh imo, but good luck testing, all.
Kyurem-B is just meh imo, but good luck testing, all.
o.k gave this a test run on the suspect ladder, trying to come into this with an open mind. To begin with, I actually believe that Kyurem-B isn't "broken" although its very difficult to switch into. My team is pretty random, but after testing it a good while, I don't think it breaks the metagame.
Despite this, I don't actually like the metagame with Kyurem-B in it, its boring dragon spam, or a few people overloading on steels and it just feels messy playing it. It might just be the suspect ladder or something, but as it stands I actually dislike the metagame im playing in, but on the other hand I don't actually think Kyurem-B on itself is broken.
Just my 2 cents
NVM just cracked #1
If a n00b like me can get that high, Kyurem-B is obv broken
Despite this, I don't actually like the metagame with Kyurem-B in it, its boring dragon spam, or a few people overloading on steels and it just feels messy playing it. It might just be the suspect ladder or something, but as it stands I actually dislike the metagame im playing in, but on the other hand I don't actually think Kyurem-B on itself is broken.
Just my 2 cents
NVM just cracked #1
If a n00b like me can get that high, Kyurem-B is obv broken
@ginganinja i think everyone is so busy abusing Dragonspam that they are forgetting other weathers really. I found out that Sun Offense makes Dragonspam difficult to do as if Venusaur gets a growth off its essentially a gg
Lavos
Banned deucer.
Starting playing, and I have to say, Kyurem-B is just as underwhelming, if not moreso, than it is on PO right now. Since it's suspect ladder and people know the Cube is coming, there's two Steels on every team, preventing Cube from doing much work at all, and revenge killers are omnipresent. The weakness to Stealth Rock doesn't help either.
If this gets unbanned I don't see it being any better than low-tier OU.
If this gets unbanned I don't see it being any better than low-tier OU.
This right here.
A set that's been knocking heads lately has been Choice Scarf. It's speed tier is mediocre, but its a nasty surprise for most teams and it's still really strong. It's kind of forced to run Magnezone as a buddy, but that's not really a bad thing (FINE, I ADMIT iT MAGNEZONE IS BEAST IN OU, THERE HAPPY?)
PS: Also where are all the skarmory's at?
Been playing a few matches on the Suspect Ladder, and I must say that I have found Kyurem-B to be pretty underwhelming. Its immense attack is noteable, but the amount of revenge killers/SR Weakness/Speed really detract from its usefullness. However, I am inclined to agree with SJCrew, in that adding Kyurem-B may give offense too many tools (stall would be pretty much dead) and may change the metagame in a negative way. But the round has just started, and their is plenty of time for my ideas to change/get enforced.
- Status