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OU CCAT - Mark III (Laddering/Discussing - See Post #547)
- Thread starter Electrolyte
- Start date
canno
formerly The Reptile
I'm throwing my support hat toward CB TTar, there are various reasons why picking TTar is a good idea.
1. It's one of the best partners to Keldeo ever. Seriously, CB TTar smashes almost (if not all) of Keldeo's checks and counters. Lat@s, Jellicent, Celebi, Gengar, and Starmie can't handle mind games with CB Pursuit/Crunch. Tornadus-T needs Superpower to touch us, Gengar needs to rely on Focus Miss or risk dying (can't switch because CB Pursuit), Salamence and DNite can't OHKO iirc unless they run a fighting move, which iirc is umcommon. Venusaur and Amoongus are probably the only ones TTar doesn't destroy, and they won't enjoy taking CB Stone Edges or even Crunches to the face. As a bonus, TTar gets rid of Venusaur's Sun and Amoongus's potential Rain.
2. Sand is versatile. Almost anything can fit into Sand and be viable, the only thing that gets really hampered are random LO pokemon, which aren't that useful to us to begin with (lolLONape). There isn't much that gets hampered by the Sand at all, really.
3. Sand gets rid of other weathers. This gives us an answer to other weather teams, without having to rely on shit like Shed Shell Heatran and Gastrodon. Add in the fact that other weather summoners do NOT want to switch into a CB move from TTar, and you now have a chance to stand up vs other weather teams.
4. CB TTar doesn't overlap roles with anything. There is no other pokemon that does what CB TTar does, which is almost single handily support Keldeo by itself, while also wearing shit down with powerful Pursuit or just breaking things with Stone Edge / Crunch.
5. TTar by itself gives Gliscor set-up opportunities. TTar is a HUGE magnet for Fighting-type attacks, which is something Gliscor can easily take advantage of by setting up a sub while they most likely switch. This is also neat because if TTar gets in with a sub, something is either going to die or is going to be left broken as fuck, TTar is just that powerful.
We also should pick it not rather than later because
A) Best Keldeo Supporter. imo, this is reason enough
B) Fits like a glove with the current team
C) Voting for it later hampers it's chance to appear on the team, where we might decided that we don't want to compound our weakness to fighting or something like that.
1. It's one of the best partners to Keldeo ever. Seriously, CB TTar smashes almost (if not all) of Keldeo's checks and counters. Lat@s, Jellicent, Celebi, Gengar, and Starmie can't handle mind games with CB Pursuit/Crunch. Tornadus-T needs Superpower to touch us, Gengar needs to rely on Focus Miss or risk dying (can't switch because CB Pursuit), Salamence and DNite can't OHKO iirc unless they run a fighting move, which iirc is umcommon. Venusaur and Amoongus are probably the only ones TTar doesn't destroy, and they won't enjoy taking CB Stone Edges or even Crunches to the face. As a bonus, TTar gets rid of Venusaur's Sun and Amoongus's potential Rain.
2. Sand is versatile. Almost anything can fit into Sand and be viable, the only thing that gets really hampered are random LO pokemon, which aren't that useful to us to begin with (lolLONape). There isn't much that gets hampered by the Sand at all, really.
3. Sand gets rid of other weathers. This gives us an answer to other weather teams, without having to rely on shit like Shed Shell Heatran and Gastrodon. Add in the fact that other weather summoners do NOT want to switch into a CB move from TTar, and you now have a chance to stand up vs other weather teams.
4. CB TTar doesn't overlap roles with anything. There is no other pokemon that does what CB TTar does, which is almost single handily support Keldeo by itself, while also wearing shit down with powerful Pursuit or just breaking things with Stone Edge / Crunch.
5. TTar by itself gives Gliscor set-up opportunities. TTar is a HUGE magnet for Fighting-type attacks, which is something Gliscor can easily take advantage of by setting up a sub while they most likely switch. This is also neat because if TTar gets in with a sub, something is either going to die or is going to be left broken as fuck, TTar is just that powerful.
We also should pick it not rather than later because
A) Best Keldeo Supporter. imo, this is reason enough
B) Fits like a glove with the current team
C) Voting for it later hampers it's chance to appear on the team, where we might decided that we don't want to compound our weakness to fighting or something like that.
^This is very flawed thinking tehy, I'm pretty sure other guys have explained why but to reiterate; weatherless gives us a lot less options to play with than sandstorm because it necessitates stronger defensive checks to Rain and Sun. We can pick Tyranitar later, sure, but since its definitely one of the best partners (and the one most people seem to like), it makes much more sense to pick it now to give us a better idea of what we're going to be building around.
Also yes, LO Virizion and LO Chandelure are very good examples of random Life Orb pokemon.
Also yes, LO Virizion and LO Chandelure are very good examples of random Life Orb pokemon.
Ok I made the necessary changes. Opted for HP fighting because it allows you to 2 hit KO Max HP Max SpDef Tyranitar (like that exists, but still) in sand storm and the same for HeatranPlaying off the Substitute switch in I propose
Chandelure @ Life Orb
Nature: Modest
Ability: Flash Fire
252 SpA/220 Spe/ 36 HP
Flame Charge
Heat Wave
Shadow Ball
Hidden Power Fighting
+ 1 Speed from Flame charge puts Chandelure at enough speed that allows it to outspeed Life Orb Tornadus-T and Venusaur if Speed isn't heavily invested
Suppose you switch into Tornadus-T
Flame Charge + Heat wave is a Kill on Tornadus-T outside of weather, Within Rain Shadow ball has a slight chance to OHKO after Flame Charge (Guaranteed if you have stealth rocks)
Meanwhile if you are in rain there's a 68.75% chance for Tornadus-T to OHKO you with Hurricane in the chance that he's even able to attack you.
But anyway yeah, you have your check to that entire list, and HP Ground for Heatran and Tyranitar
You have fire immunity and Fighting immunity, and good offense
Hey!
I made some tests, and I come with two replays, just share how could be the synergy, how could work the team in the hands of a beginner like me.
I gathered some ideas right here that I found interesting to make a team (and it was hard to chose!), it's not to advertise my own nomination since I made the team without it!
this one is against a Rain team (not a really good one though.. sorry) http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou3370835
and this one is against a Reuniclus, a Latios (listed threats), not so good a player but Gliscor is really present here that's why i wanted to share it. http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou3369947
I made alot of mistakes I know, so maybe it will be painful for you to watch it, but there is some Baton Passing in action and some trapping Ttar.
From the games (really not alot of games, and I this is a test account with low ranking) I played I found :
- CB Ttar is really great and doesn't force us to make a team around sand storm (although I was reluctant to it at first to say the truth)
- Weavile is a great pokemon pokemon, we don't need two trapper, but a pokemon fast threatening pokemon with things like Ice Shard is really good along with Baton Pass Gliscor. I'll try after with this Mamoswine, I bet this should be great (even if we start to stack some Water weakness here).
- Latias is fine, I believe if we don't pick it now, a ScarfTios in the future would be almost mandatory. In the team I played I'd put Tios instead by the way, but I wanted to test the nomination.
- Rotom-W is really good with Gliscor.
These are just personal opinions, coming from me, so don't believe I'm claiming they are true.
PS : Some of the builds I used were wrong (I did the team fast) like Keldeo's one.
I made some tests, and I come with two replays, just share how could be the synergy, how could work the team in the hands of a beginner like me.
I gathered some ideas right here that I found interesting to make a team (and it was hard to chose!), it's not to advertise my own nomination since I made the team without it!
this one is against a Rain team (not a really good one though.. sorry) http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou3370835
and this one is against a Reuniclus, a Latios (listed threats), not so good a player but Gliscor is really present here that's why i wanted to share it. http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou3369947
I made alot of mistakes I know, so maybe it will be painful for you to watch it, but there is some Baton Passing in action and some trapping Ttar.
From the games (really not alot of games, and I this is a test account with low ranking) I played I found :
- CB Ttar is really great and doesn't force us to make a team around sand storm (although I was reluctant to it at first to say the truth)
- Weavile is a great pokemon pokemon, we don't need two trapper, but a pokemon fast threatening pokemon with things like Ice Shard is really good along with Baton Pass Gliscor. I'll try after with this Mamoswine, I bet this should be great (even if we start to stack some Water weakness here).
- Latias is fine, I believe if we don't pick it now, a ScarfTios in the future would be almost mandatory. In the team I played I'd put Tios instead by the way, but I wanted to test the nomination.
- Rotom-W is really good with Gliscor.
These are just personal opinions, coming from me, so don't believe I'm claiming they are true.
PS : Some of the builds I used were wrong (I did the team fast) like Keldeo's one.
Closing
-inations!
-inations!
Alright, time to close nominations! We've gotten a lot of submissions this round- so before you decide which ones you guys think should accompany Gliscor and Keldeo to the battlefield, make sure you read all the entries first. That way, you've got the best ideas as to what you support and what you don't.
Here are the glorious ideas posted by the very earnest contributors of our community:
EtherDrive's Chandelure
Shurtugal's Offensive Latias
Remedy's Zapdos
Lavos Spawn's SubHeal Breloom
Ganjl4f's LO Mamoswine
Ithilanor's CB Weavile
Husky's Ferrothorn
ClubbingSealCub's Scarfed Genesect
GengarsNemesis's Alakazam
Superpowerdude's Thundurus-T
bubbly's CB Tyranitar
Electrolyte's Scarfed Latios
Dragonuser's CM Jirachi
alexwolf's CB Scizor
zpattacks' Volcorona
Just like always, we're going to be nominating more than one pokemon in each vote- and each pokemon you nominate will recieve the total amount of voting points you have (everyone but alexwolf and PenguinX has 1 voting point; alexwolf and PenguinX have 1.5) This means that if both of them vote for you, you basically get one extra vote! We'll be voting 3 pokemon this round. Here's a sample vote:
Pokemon 1
Pokemon 2
Pokemon 3
The order does not matter- as each vote will amount to the same. Again, please read each submission and make sure that you are willing to work with and build a team with that pokemon in it. A tie will be broken by me/Harsha, and voting will end Sunday night, GMT -4 (or earlier, depending). Good luck guys!
Here are some noteable posts made by some fellow posters that might give you some thoughts:
Remedy's Battles
PenguinX's Sample Teams
Have fun! Discussion is allowed.
Here are the glorious ideas posted by the very earnest contributors of our community:
EtherDrive's Chandelure
Shurtugal's Offensive Latias
Remedy's Zapdos
Lavos Spawn's SubHeal Breloom
Ganjl4f's LO Mamoswine
Ithilanor's CB Weavile
Husky's Ferrothorn
ClubbingSealCub's Scarfed Genesect
GengarsNemesis's Alakazam
Superpowerdude's Thundurus-T
bubbly's CB Tyranitar
Electrolyte's Scarfed Latios
Dragonuser's CM Jirachi
alexwolf's CB Scizor
zpattacks' Volcorona
Just like always, we're going to be nominating more than one pokemon in each vote- and each pokemon you nominate will recieve the total amount of voting points you have (everyone but alexwolf and PenguinX has 1 voting point; alexwolf and PenguinX have 1.5) This means that if both of them vote for you, you basically get one extra vote! We'll be voting 3 pokemon this round. Here's a sample vote:
Pokemon 1
Pokemon 2
Pokemon 3
The order does not matter- as each vote will amount to the same. Again, please read each submission and make sure that you are willing to work with and build a team with that pokemon in it. A tie will be broken by me/Harsha, and voting will end Sunday night, GMT -4 (or earlier, depending). Good luck guys!
Here are some noteable posts made by some fellow posters that might give you some thoughts:
Remedy's Battles
PenguinX's Sample Teams
Have fun! Discussion is allowed.
dragonuser's wishcm Jirachi
ganj4lf's mamoswine
still torn on the last one.... we're allowed to leave it at two noms right? i simply cannot make up my mind
ganj4lf's mamoswine
still torn on the last one.... we're allowed to leave it at two noms right? i simply cannot make up my mind
right now this is what sticks out the most for me tbh. it's not yet time to start looking for glue; we need to finish finding the pieces to be glued together firstginganinja said:
My Zapdos
Bubbly's Ttar
gand4lf's Mamoswine
*Not Weavile because I must admit Ttar is a safer Traper (Sub isnt compulsory for his switch-in, and can "reset" weather).
*Not Latias, although I find no flaw in this nomination I like too much the idea of a ScarfTios later.
*I have in mind currently the sexy-looking Ttar Keldeo Gliscor Mamoswine Latios + filler like Rotom-W to take some Rain/Sun hits.
Bubbly's Ttar
gand4lf's Mamoswine
*Not Weavile because I must admit Ttar is a safer Traper (Sub isnt compulsory for his switch-in, and can "reset" weather).
*Not Latias, although I find no flaw in this nomination I like too much the idea of a ScarfTios later.
*I have in mind currently the sexy-looking Ttar Keldeo Gliscor Mamoswine Latios + filler like Rotom-W to take some Rain/Sun hits.
1) My Kabutops 2.0
2) Bubblys Tyranitar
3) Gan4lf's Mamo
2) Bubblys Tyranitar
3) Gan4lf's Mamo
bubbly's CB Tyranitar
Lavos Spawn's SubHeal Breloom
Dragonuser's CM Jirachi
Pls no CB Scizor
Lavos Spawn's SubHeal Breloom
Dragonuser's CM Jirachi
Pls no CB Scizor
canno
formerly The Reptile
Here is a general team threat list I'm gonna compile, big thanks to PenguinX for getting a lot of teams down. A lot of these will simply be restating things he's already said. I will edit in additional archetypes if necessary. Hail balance, sand balance, and rain stall will eventually be on here.
Sun Offense:
To deal with this team, we need to be able to switch into Genesect U-turn without fearing the switch-in. This is one of the toughest things to do in this metagame, but it shouldn't be too bad with Gliscor. Also, we need a way to control weather because Venusaur will sweep most non-weather teams. Heatran is not dependable because if Venusaur has Earthquake or Nature Power it screws us over. We need a viable way of dealing with Xatu while still being able to control hazards, as this team wins and loses on the hazard war. Choice Band Tyranitar is actually a very good answer to this team as long as it avoids Dugtrio. Some variants have Volcarona, so we need to be able to deal with that.
Rain Offense:
This is arguably the most solid rain offense archetype in the metagame, so it's pretty obvious why you see it (and variations of it) a lot on the ladder. Politoed is a weather starter you need to prepare for because of its great bulk. Most physical attackers will not stop from doing a little damage with status, be it burn from Scald or poison from Toxic. Controlling weather is super important here because Tornadus-T is free to spam Hurricane if we cannot do so effectively. Latios can spam Life Orb-boosted attacks all day if we can't sponge those or effectively play around it. Dugtrio means that we have to be careful with most of our Pokemon, and Choice Scarf Keldeo is extremely powerful under the rain. To be honest, Gliscor is a free switch-in for a lot of these Pokemon. Scary matchup, we need to cover this at some point. Maybe a specially defensive Rotom-W. Some variants carry Ferrothorn or Thundurus-T, so we need to be able to deal with those.
Sand Offense 1:
We need to be able to deal with a few Pokemon. First off, we need a reliable way of taking down Hippowdon. We can bring in Keldeo, but any smart player will immediately switch to Latias anyways. If we get rid of Latias, Keldeo sweeps much more easily. Choice Band Tyranitar is perfect for that. We also need a Steel-type to take on Dragons usually, but we can't become bait for Magnezone. Mamoswine is troublesome for Gliscor, but we can obviously SubPass out to Keldeo and scare it off (the whole point of the set). So yeah as long as we can deal with the defensive threats on this team we're set. Choice Band Tyranitar helps a lot here. Some variants carry Starmie, Latios, and Garchomp.
Sand Offense 2:
We need to be able to deal effectively with all variants of this team; that means we need to prepare for all possibilities. This includes Choice Band, Choice Scarf, and SubSD Terrakion, specially defensive Rotom-W, Expert Belt, Rock Polish, and Choice Scarf Genesect, Choice Specs, Expert Belt, and Life Orb Latios, and Rock Polish Landorus. Yeah, that's a ton of threats. Rock Polish Landorus is obviously problematic if we cannot control momentum. Choice Band Terrakion is, in my opinion, the biggest threat you can face because of its raw power, and Rotom-W can take on Keldeo fairly well and even burn or paralyze it in the process. The key here is again getting hazards down and playing aggressively. You can't win here with defense; offense, prediction, and aggressiveness are the keys to victory. Some variants carry Starmie, Garchomp, Heatran, and Latias. Choice Band Tyranitar is sometimes a godsend, but it can also be a liability here.
DragMag:
This is always an annoying matchup because of the sheer power of all Dragons. Mamoswine is a tough Pokemon to switch into because of its damage output, and our catch-all physical wall happens to be 4x weak to its main STAB. Haxorus is tough to beat down, and we can't effectively wall it because Magnezone lurks in the midst, ready to take down our counter to Dragons. Latios is extremely powerful, and it hinders our Keldeo sweep, but an effective way to deal with it is obviously Choice Band Tyranitar. This also helps against Starmie and it can generally tank a hit from Dragonite at full health and retaliate with an OHKO. Definitely a strong candidate against these types of teams. Obviously offensive pressure and momentum are key in these situations. Some variants include Salamence, Heatran, and Magneton.
Heavy Offense:
We definitely need a way to control hazards against these types of teams. We can't allow Deoxys-D to set up too many layers, as it can put us in a hole early on in the game and make it hard for us to come back. Additionally it would limit our sweep. Sadly, Tyranitar happens to be a liability in this case, though it does get the KO on Deoxys-D. Dark moves just help Genesect and Terrakion have fun, and Gengar can OHKO (if I recall correctly) with Focus Blast. We definitely need help against these teams, as heavy offense can punch some serious holes against us. Offensive momentum is key, but a way to control hazards and an effective Choice Scarf user are definitely necessary against these teams. That comes later on in building the team, though. Some variants include Rotom-W, Scizor, and Keldeo.
Baton Pass:
Okay, yeah it's a stupid team archetype, but if you don't prepare sufficiently for Baton Pass, you're going to get swept. Luckily, Gliscor can attempt to get a Substitute up and Baton Pass to a sweeper and boost along with the opponent. Keldeo does well, as Vaporeon can't touch it and it will be the primary switch-in to Keldeo. Once it Baton Passes off to another Pokemon, Keldeo can just hit hard with Hydro Pump or Secret Sword when appropriate. However, this can also fail to work if Vaporeon can boost its Special Defense and pass off to Mew. We just need to play this correctly. Tyranitar does help here a lot, but you can't always depend on it. Some variants include Umbreon, Zapdos, and Celebi.
---
Anyways I hope we find this list helpful when we're building a team. Keep in mind that you don't want to react to threats, you want to pose a threat. Don't try and make a team that can switch into all of these Pokemon, because that just doesn't work. We'll look back at the team list when we finish up and see how we fare against the rest of the metagame. While I didn't add them, rain stall and sand balance typically work well, but Keldeo can generally sweep both archetypes, so we're set.
Sun Offense:
To deal with this team, we need to be able to switch into Genesect U-turn without fearing the switch-in. This is one of the toughest things to do in this metagame, but it shouldn't be too bad with Gliscor. Also, we need a way to control weather because Venusaur will sweep most non-weather teams. Heatran is not dependable because if Venusaur has Earthquake or Nature Power it screws us over. We need a viable way of dealing with Xatu while still being able to control hazards, as this team wins and loses on the hazard war. Choice Band Tyranitar is actually a very good answer to this team as long as it avoids Dugtrio. Some variants have Volcarona, so we need to be able to deal with that.
Rain Offense:
This is arguably the most solid rain offense archetype in the metagame, so it's pretty obvious why you see it (and variations of it) a lot on the ladder. Politoed is a weather starter you need to prepare for because of its great bulk. Most physical attackers will not stop from doing a little damage with status, be it burn from Scald or poison from Toxic. Controlling weather is super important here because Tornadus-T is free to spam Hurricane if we cannot do so effectively. Latios can spam Life Orb-boosted attacks all day if we can't sponge those or effectively play around it. Dugtrio means that we have to be careful with most of our Pokemon, and Choice Scarf Keldeo is extremely powerful under the rain. To be honest, Gliscor is a free switch-in for a lot of these Pokemon. Scary matchup, we need to cover this at some point. Maybe a specially defensive Rotom-W. Some variants carry Ferrothorn or Thundurus-T, so we need to be able to deal with those.
Sand Offense 1:
We need to be able to deal with a few Pokemon. First off, we need a reliable way of taking down Hippowdon. We can bring in Keldeo, but any smart player will immediately switch to Latias anyways. If we get rid of Latias, Keldeo sweeps much more easily. Choice Band Tyranitar is perfect for that. We also need a Steel-type to take on Dragons usually, but we can't become bait for Magnezone. Mamoswine is troublesome for Gliscor, but we can obviously SubPass out to Keldeo and scare it off (the whole point of the set). So yeah as long as we can deal with the defensive threats on this team we're set. Choice Band Tyranitar helps a lot here. Some variants carry Starmie, Latios, and Garchomp.
Sand Offense 2:
We need to be able to deal effectively with all variants of this team; that means we need to prepare for all possibilities. This includes Choice Band, Choice Scarf, and SubSD Terrakion, specially defensive Rotom-W, Expert Belt, Rock Polish, and Choice Scarf Genesect, Choice Specs, Expert Belt, and Life Orb Latios, and Rock Polish Landorus. Yeah, that's a ton of threats. Rock Polish Landorus is obviously problematic if we cannot control momentum. Choice Band Terrakion is, in my opinion, the biggest threat you can face because of its raw power, and Rotom-W can take on Keldeo fairly well and even burn or paralyze it in the process. The key here is again getting hazards down and playing aggressively. You can't win here with defense; offense, prediction, and aggressiveness are the keys to victory. Some variants carry Starmie, Garchomp, Heatran, and Latias. Choice Band Tyranitar is sometimes a godsend, but it can also be a liability here.
DragMag:
This is always an annoying matchup because of the sheer power of all Dragons. Mamoswine is a tough Pokemon to switch into because of its damage output, and our catch-all physical wall happens to be 4x weak to its main STAB. Haxorus is tough to beat down, and we can't effectively wall it because Magnezone lurks in the midst, ready to take down our counter to Dragons. Latios is extremely powerful, and it hinders our Keldeo sweep, but an effective way to deal with it is obviously Choice Band Tyranitar. This also helps against Starmie and it can generally tank a hit from Dragonite at full health and retaliate with an OHKO. Definitely a strong candidate against these types of teams. Obviously offensive pressure and momentum are key in these situations. Some variants include Salamence, Heatran, and Magneton.
Heavy Offense:
We definitely need a way to control hazards against these types of teams. We can't allow Deoxys-D to set up too many layers, as it can put us in a hole early on in the game and make it hard for us to come back. Additionally it would limit our sweep. Sadly, Tyranitar happens to be a liability in this case, though it does get the KO on Deoxys-D. Dark moves just help Genesect and Terrakion have fun, and Gengar can OHKO (if I recall correctly) with Focus Blast. We definitely need help against these teams, as heavy offense can punch some serious holes against us. Offensive momentum is key, but a way to control hazards and an effective Choice Scarf user are definitely necessary against these teams. That comes later on in building the team, though. Some variants include Rotom-W, Scizor, and Keldeo.
Baton Pass:
Okay, yeah it's a stupid team archetype, but if you don't prepare sufficiently for Baton Pass, you're going to get swept. Luckily, Gliscor can attempt to get a Substitute up and Baton Pass to a sweeper and boost along with the opponent. Keldeo does well, as Vaporeon can't touch it and it will be the primary switch-in to Keldeo. Once it Baton Passes off to another Pokemon, Keldeo can just hit hard with Hydro Pump or Secret Sword when appropriate. However, this can also fail to work if Vaporeon can boost its Special Defense and pass off to Mew. We just need to play this correctly. Tyranitar does help here a lot, but you can't always depend on it. Some variants include Umbreon, Zapdos, and Celebi.
---
Anyways I hope we find this list helpful when we're building a team. Keep in mind that you don't want to react to threats, you want to pose a threat. Don't try and make a team that can switch into all of these Pokemon, because that just doesn't work. We'll look back at the team list when we finish up and see how we fare against the rest of the metagame. While I didn't add them, rain stall and sand balance typically work well, but Keldeo can generally sweep both archetypes, so we're set.
1) my WishCm Jirachi
2) bubbly's CB Tyranitar
really can't decide a third
2) bubbly's CB Tyranitar
really can't decide a third
Bubbly's CB ttar
