np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 7 - Ice Ice Baby

[Lady Alex]

I would be curious to see effective stall teams as well.

 

[AfroThunderRule]

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Got this requirement very early into the test when Kyurem-B was actually being used around the tier. I was using some cookie cutter Drizzle team on this alt: Politoed/Ferrothorn/Genesect/Thundurus-T/Keldeo/Starmie and I have to say that I did not find Kyurem-B broken then. It was pretty hard for him to switch in to my team, meaning one of the few ways it go in safely is after one of his teammates is down. And after seeing tons of battles this seems true for most teams using Kyurem-B

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On this alt I actually used him in a Hail team with a Sub mixed set (team of Aboma/Kyu-B/Genesect/Deo-D/Landorus/Starmie) and while Kyurem-B was decent for me, I have to say, he was the weakest link on the team. All the problems I mentioned earlier about Kyurem-B is also applied here, once again I found Kyurem-B not broken. It was too slow, it didn't have enough bulk to compensate for his weaknesses, its power is not all that impressive outside of Outrage. Kyurem-B was just decent mon...

If you guys don't mind a random nub's thoughts on this "horrible metagame" maybe I'm just an optimist but I think there's some good potential here. I don't think Kyurem-B screwed anything. I think there's plenty of viable options out there that hasn't been discovered because we're not given the time to test them. During this suspect testing people just want to try proven things because they're proven and will get them to regs quickly, there wasn't too much time between this suspect test and the last one we had so people didn't have enough time to try out anything "new"

I don't think the increase of Genesect, Tornadus-T, Deoxys-D, etc had anything to do with Kuyrem-B but people only see him as the only thing that changed so people automatically blame poor Kyurem-B. I mean how can Kyurem-B be to blamed for this "horrible metagame" (which I found kinda fun) if he isn't even used in his own suspect test? :(


Unless something drastic changes I will vote to unban him.

 

[BurningMan]

if i remember correctly it was Ninetales, Duggy, Forretress, Cresselia, Latias and SubSeed Venusaur wich worked pretty well against me as Cresselia with a 66% recovery move is really hard to take down and walls lot of Pokemon. It seems pretty anti-metagame, but i think it requires quite some skill to pull this off (other than 90% of the teams running around wich look like they could be played by robots) since you absolutly need to win the weather war. I see this Team struggeling against other stall teams due to the lack of a spinblocker, but since nobody uses stall anymore thats not that much of a problem.

 

[Jayde]

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Went into a huge slump last night and started swearing at everybody, in hindsight it made the ladder slightly more enjoyable

Yeah, like most people, I don't like this metagame much either. Kyurem-B doesn't make it better at all, and definitely doesn't contribute to having an ideal ou metagame; however, it isn't broken. Tho it usually manages to kill something, it's easily revenged by like everything and is usually a worse choice overall than mence or anything else. Hail doesn't really help it too much either.

so base: unban from me, but after other suspects (possibily gene, drizz, etc) have gone, retest def would not hurt

 

[ToF]

Lmao I wanna troll this topic so badly atm.

All of you, both "sides" and all...relax.

I understand people might hate this meta, but I've almost infracted about 6 people I legitimately like in this topic for saying things like "I've played 15 games, this metagame sucks" and silly statements like that.

[22:22] <MysteryMan> unbanning pokemon causes metagame shifts that would possibly influence whether another pokemon is broken; if it's still broken, then it can be banned later, but if it's banned before, then it would either remain banned or we'd have to do another unban test
[22:23] <MysteryMan> none of the candidates for being unbanned provide support on the scale of something like drizzle that would break previously non-broken pokemon, as far as i can tell
[22:25] <MysteryMan> actually that came out kind of badly and means something different than i intended
[22:26] <MysteryMan> testing unbans first and banning later ensures that the banned pokemon are broken in the final metagame
[22:26] <MysteryMan> testing bans first and then unbanning leaves the possibility that something broken in the former metagame is no longer broken in the final metagame
[22:28] <MysteryMan> of course this goes out the window if something major like drizzle gets banned but i am trying to pretend we won't be such an angry mob that that would actually happen

I'm not actually pasting this as justification of the decision to test unban suspects before ban suspects, I'm pasting it so you realize this reasoning is sound AND that the opposite direction logic for the other side is valid as well: while this direction is concerned that things formerly banned might not be broken at the end, the opposite direction would be concerned that things formerly not broken at the end would be broken.

Both side's concerns are valid and there are positives to doing ban suspects first just as there are positives to doing unban suspects first.

This is literally the last time I expect to hear _any_ complaints about the direction we chose to take; if you want to whine about, expect a swift post deletion and a nice 2 point infraction. I know I have like 3 total infractions in 5 years of modding, but I might just be serious about this one.

I'll preface my following statement by throwing something out there in general: I'm starting to warm to the idea of Genesect, Deoxys-D, Drizzle, and possibly Drought as suspect. THAT SAID, I'm getting sick and tired of people constantly whining about their existence in the metagame...here is a fact: the metagame is balanced. Whether or not you like it is entirely subjective. If we wanted to, we could stop suspect tests here and say "we have a balanced metagame." However, we are working on suspect tests, and even possibly redefining broken as we go along, but this is a process that holds huge future consequences and therefore will take time.

Stop bitching.

Stop moaning.

Stop whining.

If you hate this metagame so much, you are welcome to stop playing it, but kindly shut the hell about it.

But, regarding Kyurem-B, judge if it is broken in the current metagame. If it isn't, just vote to unban and accept it. We'll get to the 4 thing I mentioned eventually, but assuming they'll be banned for sure down the road is exceptionally silly. And if they are banned, you have no idea if Kyurem-B would be broken in that metagame.

Honestly children.

common dude, you know how much i value people that care about the suspect process and your commitment but you know that statement by mysteryman is bs.

starting top-down gets you nowhere because eventually things that are brought down are banned anyway. there hasn't been a single uber that we've brought down that has been allowed in ou permanently so the "top-down" approach doesn't work imo. precedent says that garchomp will eventually be banned too, just saying. skymin, latios / latias, deoxys-s, manaphy, list goes on and on. seems like it ends up going in circles and creates more work and less efficiency, but i digress.

anyway, the above isnt even what bothers or concerns me. my issue is "why kyurem-b" was chosen over other things that are way more controversial. excadrill anyone? thundurus anyone? you're free to use the top-down approach, but why not start with the pkmn that were on the cusp of ou before being booted in bw? remember how we chose an initial tier list in bw? why wasn't something similar implemented here. don't drop one of them at a time, drop all them mofos at once and slowly work your way up to a stable metagame. this test seems out of place. irrespective of my metagame complaint (which is clearly me being a whiny bitch cause i just wanna play for fun now and not competitively, shouldn't be taken seriously), i think that's the best way to go about tackling this. drop everything, go ham, boot things simultaneously and refine (this you should take seriously).

 

[bubbly]

I don't completely agree with you ToF, but I really would like to see that the Council has some kind of plan or structure to their suspect testing. At the moment it feels completely random, and community concerns about the real OU suspects aren't being addressed. I'll have to wait to see what happens after Kyu-B is unbanned, I guess.

 

[PK Gaming]

Breloom is a god in this metagame

its effective against all of the good threats

look for an opening and just tear your opponents team apart

To me it seems very much like a anti-metagame Pokemon. Also guaranteed stripping of 50%+ Genesect's HP is soo good.

All of you guys should use Breloom if you aren't using it

 

[W_M]

Reqs:

My English is not fine but i will try. I began horribly "the suspects" with hail teams and later with rain teams. I tried use no standar teams (Politoed, Tornadus-T, Tentacruel, Ferrothorn, Dugtrio and Genesect is a very famous team like I checked and others versions). I checked Kyurem-B and in my opinion, it is not broken in OU (the best version is bander but it is slow and easily countered); in fact, I sometimes felt like the only user of Kyurem-B.

Finally, I broke my negative record with a sunny team. My team: Ninetiles, Tornadus, Salamence, Victini, Starmie/Tentacruel and Bronzong. It runs very well because it adapts to all circunstancies and it break the enemies' tactics with tailwind+tornadus+moxie-salamence or trickroom-victini.

Kyurem-B is not enjoying its suspect.

Excuse my English, please.

 

[Leader Fox]

Well got req last night

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[superbadd]

Breloom is a god in this metagame

? It's good, but not that good. It can't beat the therians or deoxys-d. I would argue scizor is a better check to k-b because it can actually take a hit from it if it needs to.

 

[alexwolf]

Breloom is a god in this metagame

its effective against all of the good threats

look for an opening and just tear your opponents team apart

To me it seems very much like a anti-metagame Pokemon. Also guaranteed stripping of 50%+ Genesect's HP is soo good.

All of you guys should use Breloom if you aren't using it

Which Breloom set you found the most effective PK? SD with Spore and LO, Spore + 3 attacks + LO, or bulky SD + Spore + Fighting Gem?

 

[PK Gaming]

The Low Sweep set. Opens up teams like mad, and you don't even have to predict either. SD sets are pretty good too, they're especially clutch lategame.

shit where are all the breloom supporters. I can't be the only guy paping everyone with breloom.

 

[AfroThunderRule]

Any optimal EV spreads for Low Sweep Breloom? Like enough speed to outrun Tornadus-T after a speed drop?

 

[TGMD]

Any optimal EV spreads for Low Sweep Breloom? Like enough speed to outrun Tornadus-T after a speed drop?

To outspeed Tornadus-T you'd have to run Jolly. When running Adamant: an EV spread of 24 HP / 252 Atk / 232 Spe allows you to outspeed positive base 110s (Lati@s & Espeon) after a Low Sweep, you also get to invest a few extra EVs in HP to take hits.

 

[alexwolf]

The Low Sweep set. Opens up teams like mad, and you don't even have to predict either. SD sets are pretty good too, they're especially clutch lategame.

shit where are all the breloom supporters. I can't be the only guy paping everyone with breloom.

Lol funny coincidence... When i was using Breloom, the set i liked the most was the Spore + 3 attacks one, with Spore, Low Sweep, Bullet Seed, Mach Punch and Life Orb with Adamant.

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

I don't completely agree with you ToF, but I really would like to see that the Council has some kind of plan or structure to their suspect testing. At the moment it feels completely random, and community concerns about the real OU suspects aren't being addressed. I'll have to wait to see what happens after Kyu-B is unbanned, I guess.

Well we were going to test ubers down before testing out current suspects, since it seemed like that was the soundest way to do things. However, considering how bad this metagame actually is (or rather, how bad it seems a majority of players seem to think it is), we've decided after Kyurem-B that we're going to switch directions and test current threats.

i think that's the best way to go about tackling this. drop everything, go ham, boot things simultaneously and refine (this you should take seriously).

How can you advocate a test all at once method after having taken part in DPP stage 3 and BW suspect testing? It'd probably take a solid 6 months of testing and tweaking just to stabilize. It's something we should only do at the start of a new gen. Otherwise testing down one at a time is cleaner and more efficient.

 

[The Immortal]

I'm for unbanning Kyurem-Black.

 

[bubbly]

Well we were going to test ubers down before testing out current suspects, since it seemed like that was the soundest way to do things. However, considering how bad this metagame actually is (or rather, how bad it seems a majority of players seem to think it is), we've decided after Kyurem-B that we're going to switch directions and test current threats.

Thank you Lord for giving us jabba who brought these great tidings of joy to all men.

 

[Lady Alex]

I had secret a backstage pass and was told about it yesterday XP. Anyway, I'm glad that the community's concerns are being addressed and that some of the hot button pokemon are going to be up for suspect tests.

 

[exotic]

After a couple of games today I can say that kyurem-b is really a powerhouse but is easily revenged, the metagame isn't fun at all and finding an opponent is terrible. I'm waiting for like 10 minutes for a game.

If I got reqs I would unban Kyurem-B but I've played to little matches in the suspect meta. I'm just letting someone die and revenge that thing. I'm scared to just send in jirachi because I don't want to lose my cute little pixie and that is why I just let someone die. Is Jirachi a good switch in? Well he has earth power and outrage would hurt also because I don't have any defensive evs. Also, I have a simple dragspam team which revenges that thing with all my mons except heatran. Also he has a hard time switching in to me. Rain is everywhere high on the ladder. The 2 times I lost was because 2 Tornadus-I tailwinded and I couldn't outspeed their respectable last mon.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

I haven't played the suspect meta, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but I did the calculations, and without maximum investment into special attack (modest) AND life orb, Kyurem-Black can not 2HKO Jirachi with earth power. Without investment in attack also, Kyurem-Black's attack ain't that spectacular either.

I said this before, but Im thinking if you want to be safe against Kyruem-Black, all you need is something with good overall general defense such as Chansey or Jirachi (maybe Mew) + a revenge killer to easily revenge outrage versions.

Edit: I mean to say that uninvested your not sweeping teams with it or breaking any notable walls -_-'

 

[Arcticblast]

Kyurem-B's neutral Attack with no investment is actually slightly higher than 252 Mild Special Attack, so saying it isn't impressive is kind of a lie.

 

[xenu]

I haven't played the suspect meta, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but I did the calculations, and without maximum investment into special attack (modest) AND life orb, Kyurem-Black can not 2HKO Jirachi with earth power.

Have you factored in SR? My calculations show that after rocks, Kyu-B is guaranteed a 2HKO on Max SDef Jirachi using Earth Power.

 

[Lady Alex]

Like he said, it can only 2hko if it's running max special attack, modest, and life orb. Other than that circumstance, it has no way to 2hko jirachi.

EDIT: I'm referring to special/mixed variants of Kyurem-B

 

[superbadd]

Like he said, it can only 2hko if it's running max special attack, modest, and life orb. Other than that circumstance, it has no way to 2hko jirachi.

Choice Band fusion bolt says hi.

Edit: awful sentence structure is sad. VVVVVV