BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

[Lavos]

Kyurem-B is now unbanned.

I'm just glad SpDef Jirachi can take it on at this point so my backup team doesn't get mauled by it (I do have Scarf Garchomp on it, but the only Dragon move it has is Outrage so...)

CB Outrage is a clean 2HKO iirc. Not quite sure how Rachi deals with that raw power. But more to the point...

KYUREM-B IS UNBANNED AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

 

[PK Gaming]

Pretty sure the council will suspect Genesect + Deoxys-D next. I think i'll sit the next test out, it's basically going to be a carbon copy of the recent test, and that one was... basically unplayable. So arrivederci BW OU2!!11

 

[AccidentalGreed]

pretty much my face when

Okay Smogon just got helluva lot more interesting now that Kyurem-B's been unbanned.

But I'm still wearing a :c face wondering why the Sam heck it would mess with Dragon Tail and not just run a coverage move and be done with it.

 

[alexwolf]

Damn so bad timing... Just when i decided to make stall a bit more popular, the stall destroyer itself comes to OU. I just hope that everyone will be running choiced sets, so that at least physically defensive Jirachi, Ferrothorn, and Forretress will be able to deal with them. I tremple in fear just at the thought of Expert Belt MixUrem-B.

 

[Machi]

Pretty sure the council will suspect Genesect + Deoxys-D next. I think i'll sit the next test out, it's basically going to be a carbon copy of the recent test, and that one was... basically unplayable. So arrivederci BW OU2!!11

I'm actually wondering how the suspect test will be handled since so far the new method of using a suspect ladder has been with mons that were previously banned and reintroduced. On the otherhand with mons being nominated for bans it would just be basically a carbon copy of the current metagame, or as you noted the previous suspect test (its not like say the Garchomp one as clearly Kyurem-B did not dominate his own test). So I am wondering how the next suspect test will be handled with regard to actually looking into the possibility of banning a mon without seeming redundant. Will they be making a suspect ladder where Genesect will be absent, because making a suspect test for Genesect would clearly be no different than the normal metagame (as well as a duplicate of the previous suspect test). Or will they be using the current OU ladder?

I am asking this since the lower ladders do somewhat follow suite in looking for ideas with regard to dealing with tier banning/unbanning. So I am curious what course of action will be done.

 

[Shayhok]

Damn so bad timing... Just when i decided to make stall a bit more popular, the stall destroyer itself comes to OU.

Yes, this thing severely hinders the viability of stall. Even dedicated physically bulky steel types lose a huge portion of their hitpoints from a 170 base attack, STABed, and banded 120 base power move to the point where the attacker basically doesn't even have to make a prediction. And in the off chance he bothers doing so, you're probably going to be even more screwed over. Unless Kyurem-B's usage rises to the point where running 3 steels somehow becomes a new thing, having a team of six stall mons isn't going to cut it anymore. There was already talk of needing a scarfed mon to keep up in BW2, and this seals the deal.

 

[Pocket]

Putting down hazards will make it easier to deal with Kyurem-Black. Combine hazards with Ferrothorn's Iron Barb damage and Gyro Ball, Kyurem-Black can be worn down quickly, although Roost variants maybe annoying.

Your physically-defensive Jirachi also works very well in combating most Kyurem-Black variants. Watch out for mixed variants with Earth Power, though.

Halting Kyurem-Black's rampage is certainly a challenge, but it's certainly feasible. Just got to be more innovative in your team building.

 

[alkinesthetase]

honestly i don't think cube's drop will affect stall significantly in and of itself... i've said it elsewhere, i'm sure of it, but i might as well say it here

cube doesn't really bring much to the table in terms of wallbreaking dragons. with no fast boosting moves (ie swords dance), it lacks the raw punch to break through most steels with outrage spam alone. sure you have sub/hone claws, but you deal with that the way you deal with any other bulky sweeper (cough phazing) and it still doesn't hit that hard cause it needs bulk investment to hold down a sub against balance/offense. moreover it has no moves to hurt ferrothorn in rain (haxorus has superpower).

really the only new thing cube has in terms of threatening stall is a) pretty impressive bulk for an offensive mon (shuffler sets might be a bit annoying if your team is not designed with a backup plan, but if you can handle parashuffler dnite you can handle shufflecube) and b) fusion bolt with which to break through rain backed skarmory (only +2 haxxy aqua tail can also lay claim to this and it needs a boost first).

otherwise standard defensive steels like ferro handle it pretty solidly. in addition an SR weakness means that phazing will murder it. i'm predicting a rise in physically defensive jirachi though (wishCM anyone?); cube needs significant investment to hurt rachi with earth power and if it does that it can't smash physically defensive steels with outrage. earth power spamming also means you're free bait for a calm mind on rachi's end, and you aren't gonna hit it hard with any of your physical attacks.

in addition you have to consider the cost offense takes in in choosing to run cube. you're using a slow dragon that's checked by many common things in OU - really, the only thing cube has over most other common dragons is neutrality to ice which protects it against ice shard and genesect. not all offense teams are going to be willing to make room for such an easily checked threat, seeing the risk of it being difficult to get in vs offensive teams (granted, there are sets, like sub, that can take momentum in such an environment and function effectively against offense). thus i don't think cube will have an easy time earning its place on most teams to begin with. it's not shit useless, but it has a lot of competition, and in this metagame, its biggest strength (huge physical attack) is worth less than the advantages some other dragons have (eg high speed tiers).

the real problem that cube presents for stall teams is that, as with any offensively slanted pokemon, it promotes the use of offensive teams, but honestly this is nothing new so it shouldn't be a big concern. i doubt cube will change much in OU as it currently stands; much more interested in upcoming tests (because if genesect is on the chopping block then fuck midterms, i got some reqs to earn)

 

[Bossness]

honestly i don't think cube's drop will affect stall significantly in and of itself... i've said it elsewhere, i'm sure of it, but i might as well say it here

cube doesn't really bring much to the table in terms of wallbreaking dragons. with no fast boosting moves (ie swords dance), it lacks the raw punch to break through most steels with outrage spam alone. sure you have sub/hone claws, but you deal with that the way you deal with any other bulky sweeper (cough phazing) and it still doesn't hit that hard cause it needs bulk investment to hold down a sub against balance/offense. moreover it has no moves to hurt ferrothorn in rain (haxorus has superpower).

I dont even understand what you just said.
252SpAtk Expert Belt Kyurem Black (Neutral) Focus Blast vs 252HP/168SpDef Ferrothorn (Neutral): 64% - 76% (228 - 268 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
252SpAtk Life Orb Kyurem Black (Neutral) Focus Blast vs 252HP/168SpDef Ferrothorn (Neutral): 69% - 82% (246 - 290 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
252SpAtk Life Orb Kyurem Black (Neutral) Ice Beam vs 252HP/168SpDef Ferrothorn (Neutral): 41% - 48% (145 - 172 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

Ice Beam+Focus Blast KOs ferrothorn. Gyro Ball doesnt OHKO.
It 2hkos Jirachi and Heatran with choice band outrage.
It doesnt need setup. It 2hkos everything straight away.
Who is gonna phaze Kyurem-B's hone claws set? It will be phazing out slower pokemon with Dragon Tail instead. I once KOed a sun team by just spamming Dragon Tail. Sun teams have nothing that can OHKO it; Kyurem-B can roost when needed.
I have kept a sub intact against many pokemon. If offensive pokemon try to break the sub, they get KOed. Most defensive pokemon die too.
EDIT: Sigh. Genesect will never recieve a fair vote. The reasons people want to ban it is because nowadays people are ban-happy. People can talk about its versatility all they want. I am not going to be convinced by an argument like that.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

Ferrothorn can "handle" kyurem, but it can't do anything in return, aside from gyro ball for the not-KO. Ferrothorn doesn't have reliable recovery, so if it doesn't kill kyurem on the spot then kyurem can just leave and come back to wreak havoc again. Putting down hazards is a terrible way to deal with kyurem, because it can switch right in on a stealth rock user and proceed to rape stuff. Unless a stall team uses something like SR Terrakion, then it can't get hazards up to deal with it. The same goes for genesect. It's not like offensive teams where you can just lead with deoxys and spam spikes, setting up hazards on stall is actually difficult.

 

[PK Gaming]

honestly i don't think cube's drop will affect stall significantly in and of itself... i've said it elsewhere, i'm sure of it, but i might as well say it here

cube doesn't really bring much to the table in terms of wallbreaking dragons. with no fast boosting moves (ie swords dance), it lacks the raw punch to break through most steels with outrage spam alone. sure you have sub/hone claws, but you deal with that the way you deal with any other bulky sweeper (cough phazing) and it still doesn't hit that hard cause it needs bulk investment to hold down a sub against balance/offense. moreover it has no moves to hurt ferrothorn in rain (haxorus has superpower).

really the only new thing cube has in terms of threatening stall is a) pretty impressive bulk for an offensive mon (shuffler sets might be a bit annoying if your team is not designed with a backup plan, but if you can handle parashuffler dnite you can handle shufflecube) and b) fusion bolt with which to break through rain backed skarmory (only +2 haxxy aqua tail can also lay claim to this and it needs a boost first).

otherwise standard defensive steels like ferro handle it pretty solidly. in addition an SR weakness means that phazing will murder it. i'm predicting a rise in physically defensive jirachi though (wishCM anyone?); cube needs significant investment to hurt rachi with earth power and if it does that it can't smash physically defensive steels with outrage. earth power spamming also means you're free bait for a calm mind on rachi's end, and you aren't gonna hit it hard with any of your physical attacks.

in addition you have to consider the cost offense takes in in choosing to run cube. you're using a slow dragon that's checked by many common things in OU - really, the only thing cube has over most other common dragons is neutrality to ice which protects it against ice shard and genesect. not all offense teams are going to be willing to make room for such an easily checked threat, seeing the risk of it being difficult to get in vs offensive teams (granted, there are sets, like sub, that can take momentum in such an environment and function effectively against offense). thus i don't think cube will have an easy time earning its place on most teams to begin with. it's not shit useless, but it has a lot of competition, and in this metagame, its biggest strength (huge physical attack) is worth less than the advantages some other dragons have (eg high speed tiers).

the real problem that cube presents for stall teams is that, as with any offensively slanted pokemon, it promotes the use of offensive teams, but honestly this is nothing new so it shouldn't be a big concern. i doubt cube will change much in OU as it currently stands; much more interested in upcoming tests (because if genesect is on the chopping block then fuck midterms, i got some reqs to earn)

I agree with the entirety of this post. All of it.

I want to reiterate that Kyurem-B is not the single entity responsible for our stagnant metagame. It's not the reason why stall is uncommon (there are much, much worse offenders) and it doesn't promote a HO team style any more than say... other super offensive Pokemon that exist in the tier. And that's not scratching the surface of it, the flaws that alkinesthetase pointed (that people love to neglect) are still very true. My prediction? If Genesect gets banned, Kyurem-B use will decline. It's good, but it has flaws that keeps it from dominating BW OU2. It's pretty good right now because its the only Dragon-type that isn't completely fucked by Genesect. Kyurem-B in a Genesect-less metagame is still good, but its slow speed, SR weak and vulnerability to common forms of priority. Scizor use will inevitably increase when Genesect goes... hell Scizor use was fairly high even with Genesect!

EDIT: ok sure, Kyurem-B has ways of hurting Ferrothorn, but so did the vanilla flavored Kyurem! Saying it's Ferrothorn isn't that big of a deal... it's not like Focus Blast is run on every set either...

PS: I'm 99.9% sure Genesect is going to be suspected next. Though, I don't think the council plans on suspecting multiple Pokemon (Deoxys-D :() so it's just Genesect for the next round.

 

[alexwolf]

@alkinesthetase

If you don't think that Kyurem-B will trouble stall, you are either underestimating him, or haven't played with a stall team lately. Mixed sets of Kyurem-B simply murder stall, and stall can do little about it. There is Ferrothorn, physically defensive Jirachi and Forretress to handle the CB sets, but they all lose to mixed variants. And even if the blobs can wall the specially mixed sets, good luck bringing your Blissey or Chansey against Kyurem-B of all things. You thought that Hydreigon could wall break? Kyurem-B can do the same without even needing LO, making it even more hard for stall to take down. At least Hydreigon could be checked by Chansey pretty good, and by Jirachi in rain.

I am not saying that Kyurem-B is the root of all evil for stall, all i am saying is that Kyurem-B is one of the biggest threats to stall atm, and certainly doesn't help its viability. Whether this is a good or bad thing is another discussion...

 

[PK Gaming]

his main point was that kyurem-b isn't that much better at breaking stall than other pokemon that already exist. cube is not going to signal the end of stall as we know it with its introduction; stall has always have had to contend with "problem" pokemon (SD terrakion, the newly introduced np thundurus-t, hydreigon, etc) and kyurem-b isn't any different. and it's not like kyurem-b is guaranteed to be using a mixed variant either, its a got bunch of other sets that are very vulnerable to stall teams... its a pretty good wallbreaker, but calling it one of the best wallbreakers ever is a bit of a stretch.

hell it's even SR weak; that's bad vs stall teams.

and no sodding way kyurem-b is better at wallbreaking than hydreigon, that's just silly. it's not better than tornadus-t either (who only needs dugtrio to break stall). what mixed set are you suggesting anyway?? because no matter what it runs its going to have SOME trouble with certain Pokemon. (doesn't have room to run roost either)

 

[Jukain]

Guys, listen to PK and alkinesthetase. They're 100% right about cube versus stall. The real thing is that if I want a wallbreaker there's no way in hell I'm using cube. I'm using MixMence, or Hydreigon, or rain mixed Dragonite, or Choice Specs sun-boosted Fire Blasts/rain-boosted Hydro Pumps. And if I'm the one using stall, those are the wallbreakers I'm worried about. Cube is just secondary. Also, if stall has a revenge killer and it happens to be—lo and behold—Choice Scarf Terrakion (which is a great offensive mon for stall in general but I won't get into that) then cube is done for. Cube is just another wallbreaker, and quite ironically one that can be walled at that.

I've talked about this a bit on IRC. Lately, I've been using Bronzong on my sun team and it is so good in the current metagame. I've just been using the following standard set:

Bronzong @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 84 Atk / 80 Def / 92 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Gyro Ball
- Hidden Power Ice
- Earthquake

Don't use Toxic, you really need all of those attacks. Anyway, these are the reasons I like Bronzong:

- It walls the recent influx of Garchomp/cube. Garchomp's Fire Fang doesn't even OHKO in sun. It's got HP Ice for the former (2HKOes without investment and 3 KO YacheChomp) and Gyro Ball for the latter.

- It can set up Stealth Rock without losing that much momentum. It's sort of like an offensive Deoxys-D meets Ferrothorn thing, Ferrothorn is setup fodder for too much stuff imo due to its Fighting weakness and lack of really great coverage (although I won't deny that its Gyro Ball is pretty damn strong).

- Generally it's a useful pivot for Ground attacks, Dragon attacks, strong attacks, and everything inbetween. I mean it's not taking rain-boosted Hydro Pumps, but really very little is.

- It's got great coverage to not be setup fodder. Literally, Volcarona and Keldeo is about the list of Pokemon that can set up on Bronzong and not get KOed or heavily weakened in the process.

- You really don't need to support it. I've just been using it with Latias (which btw is an awesome core) and between the two they cover all the threats I need them to on a sun team.

More people really need to be using Bronzong on sun it's so underrated.

EDIT: oh and:

Ferrothorn can "handle" kyurem, but it can't do anything in return, aside from gyro ball for the not-KO. Ferrothorn doesn't have reliable recovery, so if it doesn't kill kyurem on the spot then kyurem can just leave and come back to wreak havoc again. Putting down hazards is a terrible way to deal with kyurem, because it can switch right in on a stealth rock user and proceed to rape stuff. Unless a stall team uses something like SR Terrakion, then it can't get hazards up to deal with it. The same goes for genesect. It's not like offensive teams where you can just lead with deoxys and spam spikes, setting up hazards on stall is actually difficult.

16 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (141 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 294-348 (75.19 - 89%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Put a measly 16 Attack EVs on your Ferrothorn and OHKO after Stealth Rock. Really, the bulk difference is negligible and OHKOing cube, especially requiring that little investment, is awesome.

 

[BKC]

just want to say that you don't need those attack evs; throw some spatk in there to hit chomp harder with hp ice. main thing is to load up on that defense, youre gonna need it for kyu-b. i like using protect if i have sr on another mon because extra lefties recovery can be gamebreaking and its nice to scout choice mons. otherwise yeah bronzong is beast in this meta, i love it

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

This doesn't break stall, it just forces you to run a stall team more like what you would seen in the ubers meta game before 1HKO spam.

I already got a few ideas to deal with this, hitmontop could be a great check on stall teams to deal with outrage spam versions, that isn't a direct offensive pokemon and not eaten by magnezone. I really hope that magnezone use age doesn't go crazy, the last thing I need is to run shed shell on Jirachi.

When is the next suspect test looking to be, if Genesect is up for ballot, fuck my social life Im voting that thing out.

 

[Arcticblast]

Having used Bronzong before I'd like to point out that a burned Bronzong is pretty much a dead Bronzong. It's physically based, unlike some walls like Vaporeon and Politoed, doesn't have instant recovery like Chansey and Jellicent, and doesn't have Leech Seed for a net gain of recovery against high-HP opponents. Heal Bell support is really, really good for Bronzong.

 

[Ithilanor]

I've talked about this a bit on IRC. Lately, I've been using Bronzong on my sun team and it is so good in the current metagame. I've just been using the following standard set:

Bronzong @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 84 Atk / 80 Def / 92 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Gyro Ball
- Hidden Power Ice
- Earthquake

Don't use Toxic, you really need all of those attacks. Anyway, these are the reasons I like Bronzong:

- It walls the recent influx of Garchomp/cube. Garchomp's Fire Fang doesn't even OHKO in sun. It's got HP Ice for the former (2HKOes without investment and 3 KO YacheChomp) and Gyro Ball for the latter.

- It can set up Stealth Rock without losing that much momentum. It's sort of like an offensive Deoxys-D meets Ferrothorn thing, Ferrothorn is setup fodder for too much stuff imo due to its Fighting weakness and lack of really great coverage (although I won't deny that its Gyro Ball is pretty damn strong)

Reminds me more of a standard defensive Heatran, actually; able to wall plenty of important things, a good pivot, good SR setter...obviously it's not spreading burns or phazing, but they seem like fairly similar roles. Heck, if you wanted two steel types on your team, they even cover each other's weaknesses pretty well.

 

[StairFall]

Having used Bronzong before I'd like to point out that a burned Bronzong is pretty much a dead Bronzong. It's physically based, unlike some walls like Vaporeon and Politoed, doesn't have instant recovery like Chansey and Jellicent, and doesn't have Leech Seed for a net gain of recovery against high-HP opponents. Heal Bell support is really, really good for Bronzong.

On that note you could rum heat proof on non-attacking variants at the cost of your ground immunity. Sure it's a big risk and it leaves you as chomp bait but it's still an option. A lot of people don't seem to know that heat proof halves burn damage as well as fire type attack damage. Immunity to sandstorm means you aren't often losing more than lefties gives back. This would be more advisable in UU though with the powerful outrage+earthquake most dragons in OU run.

 

[Schpoonman]

Running Heat Proof on Zong in OU is a terrible idea, Dugtrio captures you with Arena Trap and cripples or KOs you.

 

[StairFall]

I was merely stating it was an option, however unviable it would be. Especially since the last thing you Wang is a steel open to ground moves which every physical dragon runs. On the topic of Bronzong though I've been finding both offensive and supporter trick room variants to be surprisingly decent. I run one on my sun team and it completely screws over opposing chloro sweepers late game, especially since they are so fast they're "outsped" by scarfers, it let's me handle them with any of my pokemon rather then having to run other slow pokemon.

 

[Jukain]

I was merely stating it was an option, however unviable it would be. Especially since the last thing you Wang is a steel open to ground moves which every physical dragon runs. On the topic of Bronzong though I've been finding both offensive and supporter trick room variants to be surprisingly decent. I run one on my sun team and it completely screws over opposing chloro sweepers late game, especially since they are so fast they're "outsped" by scarfers, it let's me handle them with any of my pokemon rather then having to run other slow pokemon.

Bronzong can't beat Chlorophyll sweepers except maybe Shiftry actually. Venusaur carries HP Fire, Lilligant usually carries HP Fire, and Victreebel carries Weather Ball which is Fire-type in sun.

On that note you could rum heat proof on non-attacking variants at the cost of your ground immunity. Sure it's a big risk and it leaves you as chomp bait but it's still an option. A lot of people don't seem to know that heat proof halves burn damage as well as fire type attack damage. Immunity to sandstorm means you aren't often losing more than lefties gives back. This would be more advisable in UU though with the powerful outrage+earthquake most dragons in OU run.

To this, I know you've clarified yourself but I just have to say that Heatproof Bronzong is really, really bad. You might as well not use Bronzong if you don't use Levitate, because Levitate is why you use Bronzong. Instead of countering Landorus-T and Garchomp and checking Salamence, Bronzong is now demolished by them. It's just way too much of a loss. Honestly, if you have sun you should have plenty of Fire resists between your Fire-types which include Ninetales itself and the potential Dragon-type, usually Latias or Dragonite. You use Bronzong on sun to switch into Ground-type attacks, set up Stealth Rock, check Dragons, basically counter Garchomp unless it has boosted Fire Fang which doesn't OHKO anyway even in sun, and you can even predict Heatran setting up Stealth Rock or using an otherwise ineffective move and Earthquake it. The latter is like setting up Stealth Rock with Ferrothorn against Heatran. Bronzong is the best sun Steel-type for these important if you're not using Forretress. Actually, I wouldn't even recommend Bronzong on rain, sand, or whatever, as other Steel-types like Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Jirachi are usually better on those teams. Not that it isn't any good, but Bronzong's strengths are best utilized on sun teams.

Having used Bronzong before I'd like to point out that a burned Bronzong is pretty much a dead Bronzong. It's physically based, unlike some walls like Vaporeon and Politoed, doesn't have instant recovery like Chansey and Jellicent, and doesn't have Leech Seed for a net gain of recovery against high-HP opponents. Heal Bell support is really, really good for Bronzong.

The thing I've found is that most Pokemon that can burn Bronzong aren't stuff Bronzong would stay in on. I mean seriously you aren't leaving Bronzong in on bulky Water-types to get hit by Scald/Jellicent's Will-O-Wisp, you're getting a more favorable match-up. You aren't leaving it in on Ninetales or Heatran to get hit by Will-O-Wisp/Lava Plume, et cetera. Actually, I'd be more concerned about my Ferrothorn getting burnt because I might leave it in on a bulky Water-type where it'll repeatedly be taking resisted Scalds but I'll risk it to 2HKO most (read: not Empoleon) with Power Whip. Also, Heal Bell support in itself isn't easy, as in OU you've got only a few things. Celebi gets it but already has four-moveslot syndrome to contend with. Blissey and Chansey get it, but well actually this requires a bit more explanation. I firmly believe that Blissey and Chansey are bad in the current metagame. They too have four-moveslot syndrome, and other moves take precedence over Heal Bell. Do you want to kill every bit of momentum you've snagged? Honestly, that's what Blissey and Chansey do. Most of the metagame can get around them anyway. In a world where a lot of special attackers can get around BlissChan, they don't even always fulfill their intended purpose! Blissey and Chansey just do not contribute enough roles to compete for a spot on teams in this metagame. I get that some teams such as rain stall and a few other teams that really utilize them well can use BlissChan effectively, but those aren't the teams that Bronzong is even intended for! Otherwise you have Roserade, which I guess you can use, it sets up Spikes too which is great and has decent synergy with Bronzong, but that's just wasting a slot on your already cramped sun teams. Again, you don't have to use Bronzong on sun, but it is best serviced by sun teams.


The one thing I've REALLY been interested in as far as supporting Bronzong is concerned is a Latias set with Draco Meteor / Hidden Power Fire / Wish / Roost and a Life Orb with 128 HP / 128 SpA / 252 Spe Timid, the same as my current one but with Wish>useless Surf in sun (128 SpA EVs let LO Draco Meteor OHKO Mamoswine/Gliscor and HP Fire OHKO Abomasnow, there's a few other thing for DM that I don't remember atm). Latias's Wish, while not very large, is more than sufficient and Wish seems pretty helpful to keep Bronzong in tip-top shape.

 

[alkinesthetase]

thank you to PK and pokemon0078 for understanding the gist of my post; for the record i did not know cube learned focus blast... but you find me the kyurem set that actually runs focus blast and then we'll talk. most mix sets run ice beam for the stab, dragon for the stab, fusion bolt, and then either sub or another coverage option. in fact, apparently focus blast was so rare that it did not even get its own line in the usage statistics.

moreover, running focus blast means you lose coverage on something else (some sets dropped fusion bolt which means you no longer beat rain specially defensive skarmory. no earth power means you lose even harder to most defensive wishrachi. no dragon stab means you don't get any smashiness whatsoever. etc etc). sure, if cube had six moveslots, it'd probably destroy stall... so would several other pokemon (i think infernape would be much much happier than cube if we moved to a six move metagame). cube still has no single set that breaks through multiple defensive steels at once. congratulations, there are certain steels you can kill depending on the coverage you run! oh wait, every other dragon in OU can already do that.

also if you have a stall team that loses to shufflecube - or a team that loses to shufflecube in general - you need some serious redesigning. i find parashuffler dnite much more annoying (better bulk because of multiscale, and paralysis is freaking annoying as hell... the last time i faced this, i had to sneak in a jellicent taunt and phaze it with my latias) and it's been around since bw1. it's not as if this is new. has everyone suddenly forgotten that phazing existed or something? how does this affect stall?

the most relevant impact cube makes on stall is one that i already mentioned in my original post: it will render offensive teams more popular (again, this is not unique to cube - any new offensive threat will do that) and increases the offensive power of OU as a whole. that's never a good thing for stall. but while i am not dumb enough to claim that the existence of cube improves stall, it's hardly anything new in this metagame. stall teams that were viable in the past (if they exist lol) will remain viable now. skarmory loses a bit of usefulness (but with its superb movepool, i'm willing to live with that). that is about it.



oh and, to be brief - indeed bronzong is a boss; don't run heatproof though. you need the ground resistance because so many things that bronzong resists will run ground coverage (eg mamoswine, one of the things zong is supposed to counter) where as fire coverage is comparatively rare on the things that zong resists, barring some offensive dragons. it's easier to just run rain and patch up that problem if it's a concern.

the one thing i cannot stand about bronzong is that its supportive movepool is so damn bad. makes it tough to fit into stall because usually you need support moves on a lot of your pokemon (that's what makes skarmory so incredibly compelling). someone wanna tell me why bronzong doesn't learn heal bell? IT'S A FREAKING BELL COME ON

 

[Jukain]

Well alk, I wouldn't really use Bronzong on stall either. The whole point of Bronzong is to have a nice tank that can take some hits and hit back reasonably hard. Oh and if Bronzong learned Heal Bell there'd finally be a good cleric in OU.

Oh, and have you tried out parashuffler nite without the para and Flamethrower instead? It's slashed on-site and I actually prefer it on shuffler nite if whatever it's wearing stuff down for is already pretty fast to get Steel-types, especially to end the nuisance that is Ferrothorn's Iron Barbs when using Dragon Tail.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

How reliable Heatran is as a Stealth Rocker? While it's true that Genesect and other of its "friends" 4x weak to Fire are ubiquitous, at same time is Rain and many Water-types. That's why I have been having difficulty trying to setup rocks with Heatran. Even Tyranitar has been having more opportunities to setup, despite the existence of Dugtrio, due to how it can tank even super-effective hits, and can threaten two common spinners, Starmie and Forretress, with Crunch/Pursuit and Fire Blast, respectively, and it can also defeat all Magic Bouncers with Crunch/Pursuit. Heatran easily defeats Forretress and Xatu, but Espeon and Starmie have been a nuisiance for him. I am trying Heatran as a SRer again just because I really need to use a CB set for Tyranitar, but I want to see opinions about Heatran and its capability of setting rocks.