PK Gaming
Persona 5
That's what I thought when I skimmed the first post at first, but OP did say
who would you rather listen to, me or aldaron.
(hint: me, it's a no brainer)
That's what I thought when I skimmed the first post at first, but OP did say
Don't hurt me. D:http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5oa7edKPY1qgqhyw.gif
who would you rather listen to, me or aldaron.
(hint: me, it's a no brainer)
The OU (Current) ladder has Genesect, the OU (Suspect Test) ladder does not have Genesect.I have a dumb question, sorry if I'm not allowed to ask this.
It seems weird to ladder on two different ladders, especially when (as far as I know) they aren't different at all. So I was wondering what is the point of it? Want to test that it wasn't a fluke?
Edit: NVM, one has Genesect while the other one doesn't... lolme.
Also to keep this post somewhat on-topic what is typically your answer to stop genesect? A faster check? A dedicated counter like Heatran/Chansey? Hazards? A combo of the previous three?
wtf you smokin' bro?both of them have genesect...
the point of testing on suspect & the general ladder is to see how players do in 2 different environments. (General ladder = regular players, Suspect ladder = competive minded players)
What's your point? Porygon-Z was the weaker example, anyway. I was referring to the quite frankly empty argument of, "oh people are altering EVs and IVs slightly to deal with Genesect, SO BROKEN."Cape, imagine Download on a good Pokemon. Yeah, that's Genesect.
The classic counterexample is Wobbuffet in DPP OU, and a more recent counterexample is Gothitelle in BW UU. Not that correlation even implies causation in the first place. There's not just my explanation for Genesect's usage (which I notice was completely ignored) but also the general explanation that it fits in just about every team. Fitting in many teams is not "broken", it's "versatile".Can we drop this argument once and for all?
There is an obvious correlation between usage and power, as every single OU pokemon that has been banned to ubers so far can show.
I respectfully disagree with several points, seemingly theorymon based and not experience based, exhibited. As I used Rock Polish Genesect every battle on the last OU Suspect test and successfully finished #1 at the termination of the Round, I can say Rock Polish Genesect is much easier to set-up with and sweep than you apprise, moreso in such an important, gamechanging (literally) thread. For reference, I'll list the team I used whilst laddering at the bottom of the post. The first point you made which I found had some substance, albeit lacking much as it is mainly opinon-based, is where you said that Rock Polish Genesect had mediocre coverage at best. In regards to such accusations, the moveset you listed for such a set probably was lacking coverage. You were using the incorrect moves. Typically, a Rock Polish Genesect I use looks something like the following:Most of the time you have to rely on bluffing a set in order to get the rock polish up safely. Bug buzz + Ice beam + thunderbolt coverage really isn't that good coverage when you consider that suddenly terrakion and rotom-w becomes a good check to it..the better option is the one with Giga drain over bug buzz but then that just replaces its stab...
I'm trusting that the opponent of genesect isn't an idiot and can see the roles of each pokemon by the time it is late game. There is really no bluffing of move sets with rp genesect because of the fact that its the only set that wields a life orb so that in itself should give you a pretty good idea of what it is. Speak honestly, nobody is going to keep a scarf genesect concealed that long - same with specs and band.
I am by no means saying that genesect is a bad pokemon, but honestly if you are saying that every team benefits from genesect that is pretty naive. Myself personally, I don't like using genesect because of the fact that it doesn't perform well as a steel type and I don't need a scarfer who can't revenge what it should be able to
edit: it really isn't that hard to stop him by the time he's set up...standard rain has no problem with it because tentacruel stomps all over it (thunderbolt is not a viable option...) if genesect doesn't have Giga drain then a ton of pokemon beat it such as jellicent and terrakion and keldeo, while if it does have Giga drain then shit like kyurem b does well against it
de facto worthless. Versus our very own PK Gaming, as we both procrastinated in getting our deviations to 55 in the Kyurem-B Suspect Test, the very first game we played I successfully demolished a good portion of his team with Rock Polish Genesect, as I easily faked a Choice Scarf Set. Admittedly, occurrences such as suspect laddering reveal your sets if you repeatedly face the same opponents, but in competitive, tournament play is where it counts for a majority of Smogon players, correct?I'm trusting that the opponent of genesect isn't an idiot and can see the roles of each pokemon by the time it is late game. There is really no bluffing of move sets with rp genesect because of the fact that its the only set that wields a life orb so that in itself should give you a pretty good idea of what it is. Speak honestly, nobody is going to keep a scarf genesect concealed that long - same with specs and band.
Tentacruel is an nuisance to Genesect, one point I actually agree with in your entire post; however, it can be beaten with SR + Spikes and Giga Drain with a Life Orb depending on its HP when switching in. Additionally, ellicent, Terrakion, and Keldeo all fall to a timely Giga Drain which is what most good players are using and what I've been advocating, and Kyurem-B falls easily due to its SR weakness and Ice Beam 2hko's after, making it not even a check.it really isn't that hard to stop him by the time he's set up...standard rain has no problem with it because tentacruel stomps all over it (thunderbolt is not a viable option...) if genesect doesn't have Giga drain then a ton of pokemon beat it such as jellicent and terrakion and keldeo, while if it does have Giga drain then shit like kyurem b does well against it
One word: Deoxys-N. There's precedent.Can we drop this argument once and for all?
There is an obvious correlation between usage and power, as every single OU pokemon that has been banned to ubers so far can show.
This 100 times. Genesect has difficulty taking hits. Obviously it's got the power, but it can't utilize its typing as well as, say, Scizor can. Genesect can't take Outrages. Genesect can't take Draco Meteors. Genesect can't take Close Combats. Hell, Genesect has trouble taking most strong neutral attacks. Scizor can take most of those hits. Jirachi takes the former two like they're nothing and live the latter. Ferrothorn can take the former two. Here's the big difference: Genesect can't revenge kill +1 Salamence. It needs a decent amount of health to take an Outrage and is outsped, which means it will be roasted by Fire Blast. At least Scizor can revenge kill. Genesect can take weak and moderately powerful resisted hits. A few neutral hits. Genesect's not frail, but it just can't take what a Steel-type is meant to take. It can't invest in HP without being outclassed by a ton. The fact that another Steel-type is needed to cover these weaknesses should be absurd if Genesect is *amazing* and *unstoppable*.ballabrown24 said:I am by no means saying that genesect is a bad pokemon, but honestly if you are saying that every team benefits from genesect that is pretty naive. Myself personally, I don't like using genesect because of the fact that it doesn't perform well as a steel type and I don't need a scarfer who can't revenge what it should be able to
Suspect ladder usage is horribly off because people ladder for reqs and thus use cookie-cutter teams so as to not have difficulty and get games finished quickly and efficiently. Genesect just happens to be common on those teams because it's a great revenge killer.Stone RG said:Well, in my opinion this was the most necessary of all suspects we could do, far more important than exca, the last suspect stats (or REAL OU stats as a matter fact) just sent an S.O.S message to the metagame: passing the 53% mark in usage is ridicoulus, and just makes you realize how much of an unhealthy metagame we are playing in, genesect definetely crossed a line.
Despite all that, genesect is rather overcentralizing, not broken, because all its sets has perfectly viable counters, the problem is the ease how it fits in any team, without even effort, i dont have to tell of you the niches of every set, because you know it. I have no idea how this test will end up, but it will sure be a much more interesting test and votation.
Smogon attempts to avoid bans as much as possible—only when it becomes very apparent that a Pokémon is far too powerful to be in line with a balanced metagame is it banished permanently from the standard arena.
That was arguably the best team on ladder too. Had a consist W/L ratio vs it, and Brii bodied most of the teams that she faced off against. Even when I knew what set she was running, I had to stop Genesect from setting up or she'd 6-0 or seriously injure my teams. This is because 99% of teams rely on checking Genesect by pivot switching into a resisted move if its choiced, and just relying on faster threats in general. Scarf Keldeo's a pretty failsafe against Genesect in the rain right? Not if its at +2.Deoxys-D @ Red Card
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Magic Coat
Tyranitar (M) @ Choice Band
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 48 HP / 252 Atk / 208 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Pursuit
- Crunch
- Superpower
- Stone Edge
Genesect @ Life Orb
Trait: Download
EVs: 24 HP / 252 SAtk / 8 SDef / 224 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Rock Polish
- Ice Beam
- Flamethrower
- Giga Drain
Gengar (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Substitute
- Shadow Ball
- Will-O-Wisp
- Focus Blast
Keldeo @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Secret Sword
- Surf
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Hydro Pump
Latios (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Surf
- Roost
This man (or woman or kid) is a genius. Someone nominate him for something. Will update once i get a little higher on the ladder but for now i completely agree.Just to be brief, the notion that Genesect has to be on every successful team. Not even most!
If you're adequately prepared for it, you should have no trouble. Genesect is honestly not the thing I'm most worried about. Hell, Ninetales of all things counters it.
The fact that another Steel-type is needed to cover these weaknesses should be absurd if Genesect is *amazing* and *unstoppable*.
Honestly, Choice Scarf Genesect is so predictable it's almost sad that everyone's so god damn worried about it.
Expert Belt Genesect is the next big common set. Come on, you seriously don't have something faster than Genesect. For shame, you deserve to lose if you have nothing faster than it.
RP, that is probably the best set. Bug Buzz + BoltBeam misses out on a lot.
Not to discount the credibility of some of the players much better than I posting in this thread, but I feel like many if you just don't like Genesect. I feel like it's not being adequately prepared for and that it isn't as bad as you think on paper or in practice.
Yes, that's right. You're halfway done, good job.
Am I doing this right? Am I halfway? OU (current), by the way.
Yeah, I was the one running 5drag1mag. Caused a lot of disapproval from my fellow ladder climbers. I don`t mind though, as it got the job done.
This. Give me my shadow tag Chandelure and watch as Genesect pees itself. Or give me sand rush Exadrill or Speed Boosted Blazekin and I'll nuke it from orbit.I'm seeing much more freedom at the suspect ladder atm (for starters I got owned by a Harvest Exeguttor when I was trying to figure out what the hell it was) and a hail team with a SpD bulky Kyurem with roost and sub. Oddly enough Heatran usage seems to be the same, which is fine since he is an excellent mon on his own.
On the issue of is it over centralizing or broken I think it's the former, kind of like "it's not me it's you Mr. Metagame and your non released trappers and banned previous suspects."
While I agree that Genesect's main problem is just over-centralization, there's some level of lethality to the Bug/Steel-type, or else it wouldn't over-centralize a meta-game in the first place. If it was just as overrated as you guys claim it is, wouldn't its usage either remain stagnant or drop otherwise? Why would it topple over Politoed in the usage thresholds?This. Give me my shadow tag Chandelure and watch as Genesect pees itself.
That would just enable more Genesects to run HP Ground on RP sets, or just U-turn out otherwise. You know you can U-turn/Volt Switch out of Shadow Tag users, right?
Or give me sand rush Exadrill or Speed Boosted Blazekin and I'll nuke it from orbit.
...do we really have to bring up previous Suspects who are more than likely going to stay banned? It's not like Blaziken wasn't banned in Dream World OU either (oh wait it was), and how Excadrill isn't also a broken Pokemon (do we really want to see Sand rise? That was DW OU's main problem before B2W2 arose).
Genesect is great, but it can be countered or checked still, and not by random or absurd Pokemon either, but by common Pokemon like Heatran.
Countering Genesect is a ball game that DW OU might be more adept at. However, when it comes to Standard OU, making a healthy metagame with Genesect in it is at the very least an arduous, uphill battle. Heatran is already being used a whole lot, what do you want next, Volcarona? Good luck getting past Stealth Rock on an otherwise supreme Pokemon, who is meant for lategame sweeping anyway.